Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / 4x4 Cars / September 2004
Serious off-road traction tires
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Jim - 08 Sep 2004 22:57 GMT I was wondering if anyone had off-road tire recommendations for a 1996 Ford F350 with a 7.3 Diesel. My application is truthfully all-purpose, but with a very heavy weight towards off-road mud, steep inclines, and in particular...snow. I do take the truck to home depot, etc but I couldn't care any less about road noise, traction, or tire wear on the street. I am most concerned with off-road performance when I camp in the mountains. Currently, I have some "Ridge Runner M/S Radial" tires in 285-75R16. They seem to work okay in axle deep mud, and loose rocks uphill, but I think they have very poor performance in snow, tending to float on the top, rather than dig in a bit towards harder snow. Mind you, I don't want a skinny tire to dig all the way in...some of this snow is really deep! Recently I was trying to go up a short run of about 50 degree slope at somewhat of an angle. I couldn't get the traction needed even on that dry ground with these tires, and a run-up was out of the question on the tight trail. I may be pushing the limits of a wheeled vehicle with some of this, but I think better tires will make a marked improvement. The Michelin XL 'looks' like it would grab in most anything, but I can't find anybody with any experience with them. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Jim
The Ancient One - 09 Sep 2004 01:44 GMT > I was wondering if anyone had off-road tire recommendations for a 1996 > Ford F350 with a 7.3 Diesel. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Thanks, > Jim Ok, I gotta throw this in. I'm dieing to try a set someday, drawback is on highway use. http://www.mattracks.com/
Roger Brown - 09 Sep 2004 02:07 GMT > I was wondering if anyone had off-road tire recommendations for a 1996 > Ford F350 with a 7.3 Diesel. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > can't find anybody with any experience with them. > Any suggestions? BFG AllTerrain or MudTerrain or Goodyear MT/R would be some good choices.
M - 09 Sep 2004 09:05 GMT > > I couldn't care any less about road noise, traction, or tire wear > > on the street. I am most concerned with off-road performance [..] For mud, I think that the conventional wisdom is that TSL Boggers are the best choise. That is, if being street legal is all you require for your on-road performance. Super Swamper TSL is slightly worse in mud, but better on-road. Super Swampers are still excellent mud tires beating the competition handsomly, afaik. Expensive though.
> > They seem to work okay in axle deep mud, and loose rocks uphill, but I > > think they have very poor performance in snow, tending to float on the > > top, rather than dig in a bit towards harder snow. Mind you, I don't > > want a skinny tire to dig all the way in...some of this snow is really > > deep! Flotation vs cut through, ie thick vs thin tyre, for snow is a difficult matter, and the best choise depends on the actual snow conditions. And these, of course, change all the time. I'm afraid I don't know how different mud terrain type patterns compare in snow (eg Bogger vs Swamper in particular).
Tyre height is a much simpler matter - get the tallest ones that fits the vehicle (in all suspension positions) - and lift the vehicle for fitting even taller ones. Getting the axles up helps a lot in snow in particular. Portal axles would be great...
Whatever tyres you choose, serious off-road snow chains help. And they're useful in mud too. Also, getting the tyres studded helps on slippery surfaces, especially when not using the chains.
Of course, 100% diff locks fornt and rear, winch, hi-lift and all the other usual recovery tools are required for serious mud and snow.
Yet the fact remains that a truck, even with large low pressure tyres, usually has too high ground pressure for travel on deep snow. That's why there are snow machines... Real bogs too will effectively stop about any wheeled vehicle.
Roger Brown >
> BFG AllTerrain or MudTerrain or Goodyear MT/R would be some good > choices. AllTerrains are a far cry from mudterrain type tyres. As I understood it, Jim wasn't looking for an on/off road compromize. BFG Mudterrains are probably good value tyres, but really aren't in the same league as the much more expensive Super Swampers or Boggers. Not in grip, but in particular, the sidewall strenght of BFG M/T's leaves a lot to be desired.
Carl Saiyed - 09 Sep 2004 05:58 GMT I have 31" BFG all-terrain T/A's. I am very impressed with mud traction, but they do not fair as well as I'd like in the snow, but they will get me thru. I would reccomend BFG Mud-Terrain T/A's for your application.
HTH
Carl
> I was wondering if anyone had off-road tire recommendations for a 1996 > Ford F350 with a 7.3 Diesel. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Thanks, > Jim THE BIG GUY - 09 Sep 2004 15:29 GMT the tire im thinking of is gumbo maxxis mudders....i had the on my 4wd.....i never stuck, slid , or had to get a run for any hill.....the noise isnt bad and i had them on my truck for little over a year ( somebody made me a offer on the truck i couldnt refuse ) till i sold it, with little or no wear
asaaaa - 09 Sep 2004 19:49 GMT there is only 1 choice *SIMEX* yes i said SIMEX they will cost ya but ooo there good and not a remould!!!!!!!
just look at the rfc (http://www.rainforest-challenge.com) Simex 4x4 tyres were fitted to 80% of the 78 4x4s
http://www.off-road.ru/technics/images/opt_jt2_prp.jpg
 Signature asaaaa
Mike Romain - 10 Sep 2004 00:26 GMT I off road a lot and run BFG muds on my CJ7 and BFG AT's on my Cherokee.
Both are decent, but when it comes to snow and mud, the BFG 33x9.5 muds just shine!
Lots of folks laugh at my tall skinny tires... once..... Then they sit there with their jaws open trying and trying to get to where I am taking photos of them trying and trying to follow me.
The tall skinny tires don't spin so I leave tread marks through the mud and snow and up sand pit walls while all the folks with big fat tires leave rooster tail marks.
Another Jeep with lockers front and rear and 12.5" muds can 'almost' keep up to me with my open diffs on winter runs. He usually only has to take one or two runs at the hills to get up there.
If you look at the folks that work in the bush, you will see tall skinny tires on the trucks that 'have' to be there, not just joyride.
My $0.02,
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> I was wondering if anyone had off-road tire recommendations for a 1996 > Ford F350 with a 7.3 Diesel. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Thanks, > Jim HarryS - 10 Sep 2004 00:49 GMT Mike you are correct, tall and skinny are the best in snow, running 235/78-16 on my 4x4 ram with an aggressive tread. I through some real tough snow and my buds still haven't figured out wider isn't better when it comes to snow. I am running the stock 30" Goodyear's that came with my 04 TJ and they are good in the mud, sand and general purpose off road stuff but pale by comparison to the rams tires and traction in snow.
HarryS
>I off road a lot and run BFG muds on my CJ7 and BFG AT's on my Cherokee. > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >> Thanks, >> Jim Mike Romain - 10 Sep 2004 17:54 GMT They 'look' sweet on my CJ7 as well. They fit the fender flares perfect and keep the stock 'Jeep' look. I also figure that if fat tires were better the poor guys getting shot at in their army Jeeps would be using them for sure. They run tall skinny too.
Mike
> Mike you are correct, tall and skinny are the best in snow, running > 235/78-16 on my 4x4 ram with an aggressive tread. I through some real tough [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > >> Thanks, > >> Jim derek - 10 Sep 2004 21:36 GMT Harry/Mike,
Not to stead the thread, but I have lurked around these groups for 4 years or so and even though a ton of people agree with you, I just want to know why. Seems to me a fat tire would be best since they have the most rubber to surface area.
I do think that if there was a surface, say asphalt, with powdered snow on top, that a tall, skinny tire could get through the snow easier to get the traction on the asphalt. But... If there was 4" of ice under the snow, then I would have imagined that a larger print would be better to stay on top of the snow and get whatever traction was to be had.
Just wondering how this works as I am in dire need of a new set of tires. But, IMHO, the fatter tires look better on a full size rig (2000 Silverado)
TIA,
Derek
> Mike you are correct, tall and skinny are the best in snow, running > 235/78-16 on my 4x4 ram with an aggressive tread. I through some real tough [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > >> Thanks, > >> Jim HarryS - 10 Sep 2004 23:08 GMT An Interesting link about narrow tires.
http://4wheeldrive.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=4wheeldrive&zu=h ttp://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/Tech/Tires.html
HarryS
> Harry/Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jim Mike Romain - 11 Sep 2004 22:46 GMT That is a good link. Your version crashes my Netscape, here is a clean link:
http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/tech/tires.html
The skinny tire has more psi on the ground. The shape is also a long grab vs a square one. This means it doesn't spin as easy as a wide tire in most conditions. Rock crawlers used to go for wide for more area grip, but I hear they are even going back skinny.
When I run through mud or up sand pit walls or on snow I keep the rpm steady and low and I just leave tracks up to the stop point. If I then want to spin them up, I punch it and they look for bottom 'fast' and 'usually' hit it so I keep on crawling through or up or have to back down for more momentum. Wide tires spin and dig easier.
It makes going and 'playing' in the mud pits almost no fun any more. I mean if I have to clean up all the under stuff I want the top to be covered too! That doesn't happen any more unless someone else gets me....
I have had a winch on for 4 years and 99% of it's use is recovery of someone else. Had to use it twice last week though. I was twisted up in a bog bad enough to snap my rad side support so the bottom tank was left hanging on the rad cooling tubes and leaking. I got photos of that and the twist is wicked. Gotta get the film developed and I will post them on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
Same for snow. No spin. That is the big trick, no spin for going and stopping and a good tread for turning.
On the highway I had 10.5" muds that measured a real 10.5" and couldn't go much over 40-45 mph without them floating up and losing steering control. It is 'very' white knuckle when a semi tractor passes a Jeep CJ7 in a snow storm doing 55 mph and you are doing 40.....
With the 9.5's that actually measure 7.5" on the tread because they are taller, I have full control to keep up to the trucks in a snow storm running in 4" to 6" of road snow cover, they are great!
Every vehicle is going to have a different footprint that has the best traction and float trade off. My CJ7's is what the military use or under 8" of actual tread width like my 7.5". That is it's 'sweet spot'. I can run on cold snowmobile trails without cutting in so I have good floatation still.
It only weighs in at 3000 lb though. On a heavier vehicle, that skinny might dig too much but I doubt it. The loggers use skinnier than mine.
Mike
> An Interesting link about narrow tires. > [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> Jim Roger Brown - 12 Sep 2004 06:19 GMT > That is a good link. Your version crashes my Netscape, here is a clean > link: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Mike You also have to figure in the force required to push the tire through the snow, since any reasonable sized tire is going to sink in to some depth. It takes more force to push a wider tire through the snow, more if its dense spring snow. I've had my truck buried up to the axles in spring snow and I stalled out a 9000 lb. winch trying to pull it forward. It wasn't until I put the transmission in gear and let the tires turn slowly, that it came out. Point is it can take a lot of force to push something through snow.
I've run various 33" tires from 9.5" to 15.5" wide on my '85 4Runner and they all seem to work about as well. The very wide tires at 2 psi would let me float up on deep snow better, but it was a lot of work to get them back on top of the snow if/when you broke through. You had to keep making runs at the unpacked snow to get enough momentum to get up and out of the ruts, then it went good until you hit another softer area or whatever and sank again. I find the narrower tires (I currently run the 10.5 ATs) might not float as high, but are much easier to get going and keep going. All my current snow driving is up in the northern CA Sierra Nevada and the snow is affectionately called "Sierra Cement". May fall as soft powder, but a few days in the warm weather and sun, it gets pretty heavy. It also tends to be deep, no way to dig down to a hard surface.
What I have found to be important for snow traction is letting the tire treads pack down the snow under the tire as it slowly rolls forward, then with the snow locked into the treads, you can use that bonded snow like a cogged railroad. A skinny tire, as mentioned, has a longer footprint for a given inflation pressure that a wider tire, so you have a longer patch of compressed snow to push off of. A wider tire won't pack the snow as hard and the contact patch is not as long and it tends to be easier to overpower the snow and spin the tire. On one of our last club snow runs, there were many vehicles with 33x12.50 and 35x12.50s and on one hill several were getting stuck left and right. Took a lot of work to get one of the trucks ahead to manuever around enough to pull them out. Getting bored waiting, I pulled out to the side and easily drove up past them made a 180 turn and drove back down the other side and then back up again.
Unless you are talking about something like an 18.5/44 Cepek Fun Country tire, you are not going to be floating over bottomless, soft snow in a normal vehicle. In the 33" tire diameter I've run, there is perhaps a 2:1 ratio of actual tire widths and in terms of footprint even less difference and and unless you are in conditions that are just on the borderline of firmness where a 15" wide Swamper would stay on top and a narrower tire wouldn't, it won't make all that much difference.
 Signature Roger
Chris Phillipo - 13 Sep 2004 01:41 GMT > Subject: Re: Serious off-road traction tires > From: genius@socal.rr.com (derek) [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Derek That's the problem with snow, there's at least 10 different types you will encounter on the road. For me, my 32x11.5 Dueler M/Ts were excellent in snow, the deeper it got the better they worked. However if you got that hard packed snow that has a polished shine to it or any ice/black ice then it was like being on a bobsled run, except all the leaning in the world didn't change your direction. I also found that lower pressure was better than high pressure with wide tires. With those tires at 15 psi on the road before the plows made it out it was like driving 4 snowmobiles. That was with my very heavy 4 runner. Now I have a Rav4 and I'm not sure if I'm going to put 235/60 or 215/70's on it because it is very light compared to the 4 Runner. I'm a firm believer you can do a lot to a tires performance by experimenting with tire pressure, so whatever you get keep in mind you do have that adjustment available to you.
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derek - 13 Sep 2004 16:06 GMT Thanks for all the info guys. Basically looks like you need snow tires and looks/street tires. Thanks again!
> Harry/Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > >> Thanks, > > >> Jim Mike Romain - 13 Sep 2004 16:20 GMT That is by far the best option. All tires are a compromise! Around here you can get cheap steel rims for the snow tires and just swap them.
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Thanks for all the info guys. Basically looks like you need snow > tires and looks/street tires. Thanks again! [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> Jim Scotty - 10 Sep 2004 12:21 GMT Id go for COOPERS , I use the stt's never go back to anything else and very strong.
Have a look at http://www.coopertires.com.au/tyres/stt.htm
> I was wondering if anyone had off-road tire recommendations for a 1996 > Ford F350 with a 7.3 Diesel. > My application is truthfully all-purpose, but Mike Romain - 10 Sep 2004 17:44 GMT Are they related to BFG?
That tread pattern is really close to the BFG mud.
http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/bfgapp/catalog/tires/mudterraintakm.jsp
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Id go for COOPERS , I use the stt's never go back to anything else and very > strong. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ford F350 with a 7.3 Diesel. > > My application is truthfully all-purpose, but Jim - 11 Sep 2004 20:59 GMT I'm leaning towards the Super Swampers at this point. Though I really wish I knew better how they'll do in the snow both on and off road. I'm also leaning towards a thinner tire. My current tires (I think they're made by Kelly in Canada) are about 10x31. The Swampers would be 9x32. I do know the times I've had bad traction, there was better terrain a few inches under the slip. I can't ever recall being in too deep with this truck, although that's always a worry because I've been there before in other trucks. Flatspotting on swampers? I read somewhere it takes up to 15 minutes to 'warm the tire up' and make it round again. Your fillings being jarred out of your teeth in the meantime. Is that an exaggeration? Again, I'm not looking for a lexus ride, or even a modern 1/2 ton ride....but I don't want this to become completely unstreetable...
Now a bit off topic. I think also that air lockers are a must. Full time lockers are too much though. Other than air lockers and better tires, what else could I be looking at for maximum traction? BTW, reliability is my #1 concern. That has to be 100%. Thanks again, Jim
Roger Brown - 12 Sep 2004 07:01 GMT > I'm leaning towards the Super Swampers at this point. Though I really > wish I knew better how they'll do in the snow both on and off road. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Again, I'm not looking for a lexus ride, or even a modern 1/2 ton > ride....but I don't want this to become completely unstreetable... Its a characteristic of bias ply and nylon cord tires as some of the Swampers are. My SXs flat spotted, not too bad in the summer, but in the winter, I would try and drive back roads for some miles before attempting to get on a highway. They would even flat spot in cold weather just pulling in to fill up with gas. Not so bad at slow speeds, but you had to gradually ease up to speed above about 55 or so. Took a few miles to get up to the speed limit from a cold start.
> Now a bit off topic. I think also that air lockers are a must. Full > time lockers are too much though. Other than air lockers and better > tires, what else could I be looking at for maximum traction? > BTW, reliability is my #1 concern. That has to be 100%. Yes, manual lockers (air, electric or cable operated) are great in snow, I used to run a rear Detroit and found it caused more problems in deep snow than it helped. Going in a straight line was fine, but try to make a turn and the inside tire would spin and sink and then you had to wokr at it to get around the turn in the trail and get up on top again. With ARBs now, I run open most of the time. I find that locking only the front works great in certain cases like changing tracks, point the front tires where you want to go and the back end follows right along. Other times, locking both ends is the key.
 Signature Roger
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