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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / 4x4 Cars / October 2004Incredibly hard-to-remove lugnuts
Just lugnuts on a farm trailer wheel, but I can't get them off. They've been on for years, probably put on with an air wrench, certainly good'n'rusted. I've tried socket wrench, cross wrench, electric impact wrench, they won't budge. I've used a gallon of Liquid Wrench, no joy. I took the trailer to a garage, they put their air impact wrench on one nut and just (oh great) rounded it off. The wheel is dished in and the lugs are placed in a sort of circular trough within the dish, result being I can't get a nut splitter on the frozen lugnuts. Can anybody suggest my next step? Blasting? Lightsaber? Thanks very much! Jim Fuller, ika_roa@yahoo.com > Just lugnuts on a farm trailer wheel, but I can't get them off. > They've been on for years, probably put on with an air wrench, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lugnuts. Can anybody suggest my next step? Blasting? Lightsaber? > Thanks very much! Jim Fuller, ika_roa@yahoo.com You might try some heat, good propane torch for example. Heat up the nut and stud as hot as you can, try removing it hot or if that doesn't work, after it cools a bit. You might try melting some paraffin wax onto the exposed threads of the stud while it's hot. The heat will wick the paraffin down the threads. Again try to remove the nut when it is hot and then after it cools. May take a few cycles to get it to break free. For the rounded off nut, you could have someone weld another nut onto the rounded off one and try using that to get it off. Quite often, the intense heat of arc welding is enough to free the stuck nut.  SignatureRoger > Just lugnuts on a farm trailer wheel, but I can't get them off. > They've been on for years, probably put on with an air wrench, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lugnuts. Can anybody suggest my next step? Blasting? Lightsaber? > Thanks very much! Jim Fuller, ika_roa@yahoo.com Kroil penetrating oil. It is nasty on the hands so wear chemical gloves or don't touch it. -John > > Just lugnuts on a farm trailer wheel, but I can't get them off. > > They've been on for years, probably put on with an air wrench, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -John I've also used PUB Blaster. Stinks like hell but works and you can find it at most auto parts stores. I think the "heat wrench" is probably going to be your best bet though. > > > Just lugnuts on a farm trailer wheel, but I can't get them off. > > > They've been on for years, probably put on with an air wrench, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > it at most auto parts stores. I think the "heat wrench" is probably going to > be your best bet though. I agree, but I doubt propane will be hot enough unless he has oxygen with it, he'll need to heat the nuts redhot at least the way it sounds. >>>>Just lugnuts on a farm trailer wheel, but I can't get them off. >>>>They've been on for years, probably put on with an air wrench, [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I agree, but I doubt propane will be hot enough unless he has oxygen with > it, he'll need to heat the nuts redhot at least the way it sounds. Here's a thought. Any possibility it's a left-hand thread? If it is a homemade trailer, and the builder happened to use a wheel/axle from, for example, a 50's Chrysler product, you may be tightening it further when you think you're loosening it. > Here's a thought. Any possibility it's a left-hand thread? If it is a > homemade trailer, and the builder happened to use a wheel/axle from, for > example, a 50's Chrysler product, you may be tightening it further when > you think you're loosening it. Didn't the old Chrysler products have an "L" stamped on the end of the lugs? George Patterson If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have been looking for it. Chrysler used left hand threads on one side of the vehicle and right hand threads on the other side. The mind grows dimmer, though, and I can't remember which side was which. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Here's a thought. Any possibility it's a left-hand thread? If it is a > > homemade trailer, and the builder happened to use a wheel/axle from, for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have > been looking for it. > Chrysler used left hand threads on one side of the vehicle and right hand > threads on the other side. The mind grows dimmer, though, and I can't remember [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have >> been looking for it. I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came loose, the forward motion of the vehicle would be more likely to keep the nut from working its way off the stud. Larry > I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand > thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came > loose, the forward motion of the vehicle would be more likely to keep > the nut from working its way off the stud. That's definitely the idea, as I recall, but I still think they marked the left-hand threaded lugs. IIRC, they stamped the end of the lug with an "L" on one side of the car. BTW, I also remember it being the left side of the car that had the left-hand threads. I worked at a gas station in the mid-60s, and ran into it in the usual way. :-) George Patterson If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have been looking for it. > > I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand > > thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > threads. I worked at a gas station in the mid-60s, and ran into it in the usual way. > :-) Heh. I remember the same thing on a neighbor's car. We removed the wheels to paint them silver. It was a 60's Barracuda... >>I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand >>thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > :-) > So YOU'RE the guy that put the two right hand thread studs on my old Dart... #$%&^%^( <G> nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > So YOU'RE the guy that put the two right hand thread studs on my old > Dart... #$%&^%^( <G> Hey! It was late and that's all we had in stock after I buggered up the originals. :-) George Patterson If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have been looking for it. I have a car with left-handed lug nuts on the left side (a 1967 Alfa Romeo, which my wife and I bought new in 1968). Whenever I get tires or have suspension work done, I try to remember to tell the guys about it. We still don't know about the lug nuts on the trailer, though, which started this thread. Jim Michael jmichael@ricochet.com > > I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand > > thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have > been looking for it. > I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand > thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came > loose, the forward motion of the vehicle would be more likely to keep > the nut from working its way off the stud. > > Larry Yes. It's actually got a more complicated explanation than that, but you got the sides correct. Studebaker did the same thing, although they quit sometime between '56 and '62. Chrysler was using LH thread as late as 1969 and maybe later (that's just the newest MoPar I've worked on.) nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > > I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand > > thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > quit sometime between '56 and '62. Chrysler was using LH thread as late > as 1969 and maybe later (that's just the newest MoPar I've worked on.) Shouldn't the left hand threads be on the right side, so they'd tend to tighen upon themselves with forward motion? I'm thinking if the nut was loose, and the wheel suddenly started spinning forward, a right hand thread on the right side would tend to spin off, correct? Or is this where that complicated explanation comes into play? ;o) >> > I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand >> > thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >on the right side would tend to spin off, correct? Or is this where that >complicated explanation comes into play? ;o) I think you are right. My 1926 Benley has a single spinner on each wheel, so it is vital that they are threaded so that the turning of the wheels tightens rather than loosens them. They are left-hand threads on the right side and right-hand on the left side. So you always hit the front of the spinner to loosen it. SignatureP >>>I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand >>>thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > on the right side would tend to spin off, correct? Or is this where that > complicated explanation comes into play? ;o) I recall my high school physics teacher used the LH lug nuts as an example in class, *his* explanation for it actually had to do with precession and not simply rotation of the wheel. I have to admit I don't remember it all and a quick web search is turning up dry. I think I was one of the few people in the class that had ever seen a left hand threaded lug nut judging by the blank stares from most of the students :) nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > >>>I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand > >>>thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > nate As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the load on the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit loose, the nut seat in the wheel will "walk" around the nut in this opposite direction and roll the nut to the left and tighten it. If you use a ring of some sort and a round object fitting loosely inside it, you can see the effect easily enough. I'm restoring a '51 International Harvester pickup, and it had LH threads on the left-side studs. Found that out after a lot of sweating, long bars and bent wrenches. Stupid, since I used to sell wheel and brake parts in the '70s and knew all about this stuff but had forgotten. Maybe I remembered that "only" Chrysler and some trailer manufacturers did it, besides most heavy trucks. At any rate, it will have all RH studs and nuts when it's done. LH nuts have little notches in the corners where the flats meet. Dan > As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the load on > the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit loose, > the nut seat in the wheel will "walk" around the nut in this opposite > direction and roll the nut to the left and tighten it. Right. > I'm restoring a '51 International Harvester pickup, and it had > LH threads on the left-side studs. So they'd tend to spin off if they were loose... right? If you were holding the nut still and rolled a left side tire forward, a right hand thread would tighten and a left hand thread would loosen. Of course upon decelleration the opposite would be true, maybe that is the scenario the manufacturers originally had in mind. > > As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the load on > > the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit loose, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Of course upon decelleration the opposite would be true, maybe that is the > scenario the manufacturers originally had in mind. That effect would have to rely on the inertia of the nut, and a nut has so little rotational inertia at vehicle speeds as to be negligible. No, the effect has to do with the wheel's load on the nut rotating in the direction opposite the wheels' rotation, and the looseness of the nut resulting in a slightly eccentric movement of the nut seat in the wheel causing nut rotation in the tightening direction. It's a lot more complicated than what meets the eye. Somewhere on the net should be an animation of the effect. Dan > > > As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the load on > > > the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit loose, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Dan So you think that a lug nut that is a "bit" loose with tighten itself..... RIGHT... Never seen it but I have seen the entire wheel destroyed and had to replace all the studs and nuts because one was a "bit" loose and it allowed enough wheel flex that it damaged the rest. Of course if your theory is correct then speed should also have an effect, HMMM Yep NASCAR guys who don't get the lugs tight never have a problem.... YEAH RIGHT. > > "SBlackfoot" <trypticon@sympatico.remove.ca> wrote in message > news:<TCndd.25729$J16.1134818@news20.bellglobal.com>... [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > effect, HMMM Yep NASCAR guys who don't get the lugs tight never have a > problem.... YEAH RIGHT. I said a BIT loose. We're talking lower nut torque here, not slop. The thread direction will determine whether the nut tends to come off or stay put. And we're not talking NASCAR nuts, either, that undergo huge torques and sideloadings. I have seen destroyed wheels, too; I spent 9 years selling new hubs, wheels, studs, nuts for everything from utility trailers to earthmoving equipment and 250-ton mine trucks. Steel and aluminum wheels, Budd and Dayton and Motor Wheel types, custom auto wheels, and all the hardware from the spindle and bearings on out. I learned a few things about this stuff from the hub/wheel/stud/nut manufacturers. Things like the LH nut theory, and about overtorquing of nuts being as bad as undertorquing, since the stud is strained and loses its elasticity, and if there's any wheel distortion the nut will come loose. Things aren't always what they seem. The tire shops are finally using torque wrenches to tighten the nuts. That said, we have to point out that the effect of LH nuts on cars must have been not worth the cost, because we don't see LH nuts on cars anymore that I know of. Just on large trucks now. I do know that we sold a lot of left-hand hardware to tire shops whose green tire jockeys didn't know about such stuff and busted it off. Dan > because we don't see LH nuts on cars anymore that I know of. Just on large trucks now. Interesting. I wasn't aware that they used them anywhere anymore. ~~R.Banks >> because we don't see LH nuts on cars anymore that I know of. Just on large trucks now. > >Interesting. I wasn't aware that they used them anywhere anymore. I see the point on a car like mine with a single spinner on each wheel. Far less if you have 4, 5 or whatever wheel nuts per wheel. It is not so much that it will tighten if it is loose, but that, with the wrong thread, it would loosen if it were tight. SignatureP I have a factory-made utility trailer sold through Sears in 1947, and the lugs on both sides are left-handed threads. > Chrysler used left hand threads on one side of the vehicle and right hand > threads on the other side. The mind grows dimmer, though, and I can't remember [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have >> been looking for it. SignatureSome conditions apply. YMMV. This message was packed by weight, not by volume. TWIAVBP, local variation may occur. Dramatization, not a real authority. Do not induce vomiting. No user-serviceable words inside. > I have a factory-made utility trailer sold through Sears in 1947, and the > lugs on both sides are left-handed threads. Wow, that's strange! ~~R.Banks > Can anybody suggest my next step? Blasting? Lightsaber? Use an acetylene torch such as plumbers use for soldering. Keep the heat on the nut and away from the stud as much as possible. Work the torch around the nut to try to heat it evenly. About five minutes should do it. I apply heat until I get a slight reddish glow. Try to remove the nut while it's still hot. I would use a 1/2" or 3/4" drive socket with a 5' or longer piece of pipe as a cheater on the drive handle. (my setup is a 1/2" drive Craftsman handle and socket with a piece of 1.5" steel plumbing pipe for a cheater). George Patterson If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have been looking for it. > The wheel > is dished in and the lugs are placed in a sort of circular trough > within the dish, result being I can't get a nut splitter on the frozen > lugnuts. If you're serious about splitting the nuts, this can be done from the end of the nut rather than the side by using a cold chisel. Lots of work, though. George Patterson If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have been looking for it. G.R. Patterson III proclaimed: >>The wheel >>is dished in and the lugs are placed in a sort of circular trough [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you're serious about splitting the nuts, this can be done from the end of the nut > rather than the side by using a cold chisel. Lots of work, though. Using a good cold chisel aided by a Dremel is pretty good. Slow, but sometimes just cutting a very thin slice in the nut will allow it to be removed without the chisel. Best done with a tungsten carbide or better yet, diamond, bit. > Just lugnuts on a farm trailer wheel, but I can't get them off. > They've been on for years, probably put on with an air wrench, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lugnuts. Can anybody suggest my next step? Blasting? Lightsaber? > Thanks very much! Jim Fuller, ika_roa@yahoo.com Drill down one side, on the thread line, with say a 3 or 4 mm drill. Using a small 6 or 8mm wide engineers chisel, driven axial to the thread, split the remaining material. This will, at the same time, force the thread open. Even though the thread will be left with a half drilled hole down one side they should be still functional. Clean out the thread burrs with a triangular needle (Swiss) file dj Find an iron pipe you can hammer/force over the rounded nut (works well on keyed McGard-style locknuts). Use a pipe wrench to turn iron pipe one way or the other way. Good luck. > Just lugnuts on a farm trailer wheel, but I can't get them off. > They've been on for years, probably put on with an air wrench, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lugnuts. Can anybody suggest my next step? Blasting? Lightsaber? > Thanks very much! Jim Fuller, ika_roa@yahoo.com Try the stripped nut remover,U can probly get one at NAPA E-mail me back@ Gizmeau@web tv .net |
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