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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / 4x4 Cars / April 2006Antifreeze pouring out of 258 84 CJ7
Here's the deal: Just bought this Jeep from a guy and 10 miles after I bought the Jeep I stop at a light and steam pours out from the hood. Upon inspection, the steam is coming from the very back of the engine. All of the heater hoses look good and the freeze plug is intact. I can drive it about a mile before it heats up and starts steaming and I loose almost all of my antifreeze. I welcome any and all suggestions! Patrick > Here's the deal: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Patrick Blown head gasket.  Signature.boB Arrived: 2006 FXDI, Red. 1997 HD FXDWG - Turbocharged Stolen 11/26/05 in Denver 1HD1GEL10VY3200010 CO License J5822Z 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92 1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver 1965 FFR Cobra - 427W EFI, Damn Fast. I've run my hands along the heads and dont feel or see any coolant. Is there any place else that may be leaking? The engine runs perfectly. Also, the steam seems to becoming from the coolant hitting the exhaust (bell housing is covered in coolant) and coming up from the back of the engine, but Im not sure that that is where the leak is. There is no discoloration in the overflow tank either...as green as green gets. I would hate to replace the head gasket and come to find out that wasnt it. >I've run my hands along the heads and dont feel or see any coolant. Is >there any place else that may be leaking? The engine runs perfectly. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I would hate to replace the head gasket and come to find out that wasnt >it. Check two things here. First make sure the the thermostat is not stuck closed and if it is not, the radiaitor may be plugged. You do not want to overheat that engine much because it can warp the head. I would not be in a hurry to tear engine down to replace head gasket right now. Besides, if head gasket is blown, the head will be warped too and need to be milled flat again because they do not just blow for no reason. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com I highly recommend you get the Haynes CJ manual. It isn't expensive and it is right on for almost everything, especially the wiring. Your intake manifold has coolant running through it. The long intakes and exhaust manifolds will come loose sometimes. It would be worth checking. They tighten up starting in the center and going out in a spiral pattern like tightening up a head gasket. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Here's the deal: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Patrick I will try tightening the manifolds right now and report back to you. Thanks! I havent tried tightening the manifolds yet. I crawled under the jeep and I can't see ANY PLACE where the coolant is leaking out. I let it run for a minute and nothing. The majority of the antifreeze was on the drivers side (and the ground) and was covering the master cylinder. Could this may have been caused by the guy I bought it from filled the radiator fluid while cold and antifreeze overflowed from the top and covered everything and it just took the exhaust and the block to heat up to evaporate it off? I have the Haynes manual for the jeep and have been scouring over it all day looking for places that this leak could be coming from. Unfortunately, there isnt much detail on the cooling system other than water pump, thermostat and basic diagrams. It doesnt even show the coolant temperature sensor on the 258. Speaking of which, where is the coolant temperature sensor? It doesnt work so I am not sure if the enigne was even over-heating. Maybe I will start by fixing that first to monitor the temperature. I again appreciate all the input! You are describing a pinhole leak that likely needs the engine fully hot to piss a small stream out. A heater hose is suspect. The one from the manifold on the drivers side across to the firewall on the other side. Or a pin hole in the rad can shoot the fluid back there. My battery kept getting covered with antifreeze. I couldn't find the leak for a long time. It was one of the rad cores that needed full hot pressure to piss this little stream out.... The temperature sender is at the drivers side top of the head at the back with a purple wire on it. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > I havent tried tightening the manifolds yet. I crawled under the jeep > and I can't see ANY PLACE where the coolant is leaking out. I let it [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I again appreciate all the input! >You are describing a pinhole leak that likely needs the engine fully hot >to piss a small stream out. A heater hose is suspect. The one from the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >long time. It was one of the rad cores that needed full hot pressure to >piss this little stream out.... You are going about this wrong because you are assuming that the cooling system is working properly when it may not be. Work the problem before you start looking for gremlins. About 10 miles is all it would take to overheat if thermostat was stuck or radiator plugged up. Drive with heater on full blast and I will bet it takes longer to overheat. If so it comfirms a cooling problem, not a leak. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com I am assuming it's overheating (the temp gauge is broken) becuase it is spilling antifreeze out somewhere. I cleaned the engine completely and then dried it off. I ran it for about 5 minutes and then shut it off and looked for steam. The steam doesnt appear to be coming from the back of the engine so much as the back of the exhaust manifold. I am letting everything dry for the night and will resume troubleshooting tomorrow. I ordered a temp sensor and it should be in tomorrow. I also pulled the valve cover off and checked the head bolts which seem really tight. What were not tight were the exhaust & intake manifold bolts. >What were not tight were the exhaust & intake manifold bolts. They are not supposed to be realy tight as the manifolds "float" a bit as they expand and contract. Torqe them down tigh and you will likely crack the exhaust manifold after a few heat cycles. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com That is where the heater hose hooks up. Pissing out antifreeze only means you have a leak. That sure does not mean it is overheating. If it was overheating, when you shut it down, it would burp copious amounts of fluid out the rad cap into the overflow and even pour it out of the top of the overflow. Is your temp sender dead? That would be kind of unusual for the 258. Here is a good link on the gauges: http://www.off-road.com/jeep/tech/electrical/gauges/ The temperature and gas gauges run off a voltage regulator. If the gas gauge is also dead, I would suspect that regulator. If you ground that purple wire to the temp sender, the gauge should pin out hot. The torque for the exhaust and intake manifold bolts is 20-25 ft lb. Mike > I am assuming it's overheating (the temp gauge is broken) becuase it is > spilling antifreeze out somewhere. I cleaned the engine completely and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What were not tight were the exhaust & intake manifold bolts. Can someone take a photo of the temp sender for me? I am having trouble locating it still. It is a single post sticking up out of the drivers side rear corner of the engine head. The wire leading to it will be purple. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Can someone take a photo of the temp sender for me? I am having > trouble locating it still. I dont see any wires that are purple... LOL! Well it is supposed to be purple anyway. I had to clean mine to figure that out from looking at it... If you look at the corner of the head right where the valve cover has a corner you will see a post sticking up there from the sensor or a wire pushed on the post that is supposed to be purple. My Windoze doesn't want to talk to my camera today and I don't feel like uninstalling and reinstalling the damn software again... Mike > I dont see any wires that are purple... Ok, I got the camera to talk to the windoze long enough to get one photo down. I put it here http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4292126015 It is a crappy photo, but a shadow was across the plug blocking it so I had to lighten it. You can just view the photo larger without joining the site. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > I dont see any wires that are purple... That pic was exactly what I needed! Thanks! I see it now on my head. I was looking on the intake manifold. The wire looks kinda purple/kinda brown with a white stripe. I finally got the manifolds loosened and tomorrow morning I will remove and inspect the head gasket and report back. For any one interested it only took about 2 hours to remove everything to change the head gasket. I am a motor novice and have VERY limited tools. Had I had the new gasket set and the new head bolts (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARP%2D112%2D3601&N=115&autoview=sku) I probably would be done and driving it around right now. I removed the following in pretty much this order: 1. Removed the thermostat & housing 2. Removed air cleaner 3. Removed carb (essential to reach the lower exhaust manifold nuts) 4. Removed valve cover 5. Removed alternator & bracket & power steering pump bracket 6. Removed dipstick support & coil bracket 7. Removed head bolts (excluding the one that broke---that happens tomorrow) I used the jack pump lever as a breaker bar (limited tools I said!) 8. Removed top manifold bolts 9. Removed bottom manifold bolts using a 10" extension, a swivel & 9/16 socket. It's tight and tricky...but it works 10. Gave a slight push on the manifolds and everything broke cleanly away from the heads. What makes you think the head gasket is bad? Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > That pic was exactly what I needed! Thanks! I see it now on my head. > I was looking on the intake manifold. The wire looks kinda [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > 10. Gave a slight push on the manifolds and everything broke cleanly > away from the heads. I thought the head gasket was bad because the antifreeze has 2 channels at the back of the motor close to where the antifreeze was coming out. The head gasket was ok, but it looks as though the broken head bolt at the back of the engine and/or the loose (the last lower exhaust manifold bolt want even present) manifold bolts may have been the culprit. I have everything back together now and am just running down an apparent vacuum leak. ...I didnt label the hoses well enough! the motor is goes (at fast idle): brrrrrrrrrrrr-pup-brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-pup-brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-pup- etc.... Any ideas? Im in a non-Echeck city and was considering dropping the emissions stuff all together...mostly because I am having a difficult time identifying the parts on the vacuum diagrams that I have found on the net. What lines are absolutely essential to make this thing run? Yup, that sure sounds like a vacuum hiccup. The charcoal canister would be my first guess. I have my 86 set up with no emissions computer or junk on it including no CAT converter and it passes emissions anyway with really low numbers. On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx and 16 ppm HC and 0.11% CO. California calls for 875 NOx. I beat them with no cat even. LOL! It isn't hard to disable the computer. I run 2 new wires rather than mess inside the harness like some folks do in their internet writeups. I run 2 new wires connecting the orange and purple wires at the distributor directly to the orange and purple wires at the ignition module that is locate Wayyyyy down on the driver's side fender under the washer bottle. You then will need to set the timing because it will have jumped about 15 degrees and then pop the covers off the carb's idle mix screws to manually set up the idle mix. I force it full rich first or if I am helping finish the job, I can use needle nosed pliers to pull the needle from the stepper motor on the carb's back as far into the carb as it will go. Here is a couple links on doing the mod: http://home.sprynet.com/~dale02/ignmods.htm And http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm It gives a sweet 25% seat of the pants power boost. My CJ7 will top out at 4400 rpm now. 52 mph in 2nd, 75 mph in 3rd, 4th buries the speedo and I have 'no' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.... I get a nice 23 mpg on the highway too. This is a good site on all CJ stuff, worth the read: http://home.sprynet.com/~dale02/list.htm For needed vacuum lines I run the back drivers side corner nipple up to the air filter flap control in the bottom of the air filter. I run the nipple on the valve cover side to the distributor to give it a ported vacuum signal. I 'T' that ported line and run it to the CTO valve on the back nipple that is closed when cold and passes to the front open when hot. I blow through them to see which is which but it usually is the one closest to the carb. From there I go up to the air filter temp switch on the back side and from there down to the EGR valve. I T this line at the EGR to feed the charcoal canister purge valve located down under the brake MC. (This is the one I think you have screwed up by the way) I have the PCV in and at the back of the carb I have a T in the PCV line to go to the charcoal canister main purge. You might have a solenoid thing at the back there. Garbage it because they usually only caused oil to fill the air filters anyway and the fix was to put a T in. I have all the other vacuum nipples blocked. The two large float bowl vents go to the charcoal canister as well as the gas tank vent. That canister has an air filter on the bottom that needs replacing now and then. It is about a two buck filter. The first one is a pain to get out, the next ones just tuck in. All the rest of those vacuum lines and switches can be tossed in the garbage. Out of sight out of mind idea. If you have AC you might want to hook up a switch with 12 volts for the solvac idle stepper to give you a fast idle when the AC is on. The computer used to do that, not any more. Hope this helps, Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > I thought the head gasket was bad because the antifreeze has 2 channels > at the back of the motor close to where the antifreeze was coming out. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > What lines are absolutely essential to make this thing run? OK...here is what was causing a mis-fire...the rocker arm bolt for #6 exhaust was tight but loose...like something wasnt allowing it to tighten...the push rod wasnt seated on the cam apparently. Took the bolts out and reseated the pushrod then retightened bolts. My buddy stood on the valve cover while I fired it up and whallah...purred like a kitten. I also didnt see any antifreeze leaks. I still have to reset the timing though. That was what we first messed with thinking it sounded like it was off. After we futzed with that without any success, we took the valve cover off...and found the above. My cover was broken in about 10 different places so I went to a junkyard and pulled one off an 85-ish AMC Eagle...only $10! I think this weekend I am going to "Nutter" bypass the computer...only problem I see is my wires off the distributor are red and green...not orange and purple. I am also putting in a mechanical temp gauge tomorrow. Im gonna have to get another job just to pay for all this "fun"! Thanks for all the help and suggestions Mike and everyone! Pat I would be wanting to know what has been put in, in place of the Jeep distributor? Your wire colors imply a non stock one. There are several aftermarket types of distributors out there. I would be checking to see if someone has either taken out the ignition module or maybe has already bypassed the computer. If it has been bypassed, the purple wire at the ignition module will be hooked up. Stock the purple wire 'at the ignition module' isn't attached to anything. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > OK...here is what was causing a mis-fire...the rocker arm bolt for #6 > exhaust was tight but loose...like something wasnt allowing it to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Pat I'll check...I'm thinking the guy said it was for a Ford...maybe...I didnt pay that much attention when he said it. Is there any place to put an aftermaket mechanical gauge that uses 1/4" sensor that I wont have to drill and tap? Did the Nutter bypass. What a piece of cake! Upon further inspection the red & green wires were from the coil not the distributor. I also installed a new temp guage. What is the normal temp of a 258 idling? Mine has it's moments.... Normally mine runs in the center of the range. When I run her hard in 4 low or keep up with traffic for extended periods at 75 to 80 mph she will get just to the bottom of the red zone. It has never boiled over, but... I have a fixed 4 blade fan on but it didn't come with a shroud. It also doesn't have an overflow bottle so it isn't full to the top when cold. It is full when hot. I have a Warn winch and 2 Hella Black Magic lights blocking some of the flow.... With the 'nutter' bypass you might want to try different octanes of fuel. Mine runs best on esso or exxon 91 octane 'real' gasoline (no alcohol). With that I get a nice 23 mpg running at 65 to 70 mph. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Did the Nutter bypass. What a piece of cake! Upon further inspection > the red & green wires were from the coil not the distributor. > > I also installed a new temp guage. What is the normal temp of a 258 > idling? She's running very well...except it likes to die at stop lights. Also running at about 215 deg. F which is warmer than I think it should. I shut it off when it gets that hot. Im thinking it's the water pump. Grinding coming from under the hood (I originally thought it was the power steering pump) and the radiator is cool to touch even after reaching 215. If I squeeze the upper hose (and kind of manually pump) the radiator warms up along the top. I know its not the thermostat because it's brand new. Oh! And with the cap off the coolant barely moves if at all! 215 is normal. A 50/50 mix of coolant and water under 15 psi pressure should be good to about 265 or so before it boils. You should have flow and a hot rad at 215 though. You could have a bad thermostat or pump. Thermostats can be bad out of the box unless the overheating was the reason for the change. Is the pump 'new'? They make 2 different pumps that fit on that engine. One is a normal rotation pump for a V belt, the other is a reverse rotation pump for a serpentine belt. It dies at a light.... It could if you have an automatic because the sol vac is no longer in the loop. You would then need to bump up the idle speed slightly. How hard was it to get the carb mix screws set stable? If it was a pain, then you might have to clean out the idle pickup tubes. They have crimped ends that get blocked with dirt and need a physical ream with a piece of wire or a metered file or drill bit like they use to clean welding torch tips. I oversized mine slightly which helps. The venturi cluster can be carefully removed from the top. You just need to take the choke plate out and the venturi will twist around and come out. You can check them by looking down the running carb while giving it a shot of gas. You should have mists of gas coming out the venturis, if there are any drips of gas, the tubes are plugged. Here is a good site on cleaning them if needed: http://www.off-road.com/jeep/tech/engine/carter.html The other thing could be a sticky EGR valve. That can cause stalls as you decelerate to a stop. You can disconnect the vacuum line and block it to test that. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > She's running very well...except it likes to die at stop lights. Also > running at about 215 deg. F which is warmer than I think it should. I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (and kind of manually pump) the radiator warms up along the top. I > know its not the thermostat because it's brand new. I will take the cap off at temp to check. I replaced the thermostat because it was running hot. It's a 4 speed manual...Im going to double check the vacuum lines one more time to make sure I have it right before I ream out the pickups. I will check out the egr valve today. > I will take the cap off at temp to check. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I will check out the egr valve today. Have you flushed the rad recently? They can get blocked.... Make sure the feed for the EGR originates at the port on the valve cover side of the carb. This is the 'ported' vacuum that only turns on when the throttle is open. Mike Yep, I flushed it when I had the original leak. I drained all of the coolant out of the radiator and let the hose run through the cap and drain out the bottom drain plug. When I remove the cap I do see some minor calcification. I was thinking though that since the radiator got warmer when I pumped the upper hose that it was probably just an overall lack of flow through the system, since the radiator did get warm after the coolant "flowed" I will be more than happy to clean the radiator with a chemical cleaner if you have any suggestions. Any way you could sketch your "post-Nut-op" vacuum diagram and put it on the web for all to enjoy? I appreciate all the help Mike! Please 'DON'T' open the rad when hot!!!!!! Leave the cap off while it warms up to watch..... I would be thinking pump or T-stat. I have a good link to CJ stuff already on the web. Check the index at this site, but here is the breakdown on the vacuum systems. This site shows you the before and after setups and is a very well written one. http://home.sprynet.com/~dale02/vac-egr.htm http://home.sprynet.com/~dale02/vac-tac.htm http://home.sprynet.com/~dale02/vac-mcu.htm Mike > Yep, I flushed it when I had the original leak. I drained all of the > coolant out of the radiator and let the hose run through the cap and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I appreciate all the help Mike! > >You are describing a pinhole leak that likely needs the engine fully hot > >to piss a small stream out. A heater hose is suspect. The one from the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The SnoMan > www.thesnoman.com He isn't overheating, he has a leak like the header of the thread says. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) |
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