Car Forum / Acura Cars / November 2004
Krown Rustproofing
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susserj - 22 Oct 2004 20:01 GMT Hi,
I'm picking up an Acura EL Monday. The dealer said I should not install Krown rustproofing. I had Krown on my 1992 Accord. It dammaged the hood gasket but I think it was still a good investment. Are the gaskets on a 2004 Acura likely to be effected by the rustproofing? If so which ones?
General Schvantzkoph - 22 Oct 2004 20:06 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > gaskets on a 2004 Acura likely to be effected by the rustproofing? If > so which ones? An honest dealer, who knew?
Bruno - 22 Oct 2004 20:25 GMT >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >gaskets on a 2004 Acura likely to be effected by the rustproofing? If >so which ones? The Acura dealer in my vicinity suggested Zeibart. Then again, the onwer of the dealership owns the Zeibart franchise. Go figure.
Anyway, I went to Krown. I asked about the rubber. They said Honda uses cheap rubber in some places (moldings and such). They put silicone spray on those to avoid any problems.
All my research pointed to the Krown solution as the best. And testimonies from friends and colleagues. Personally, it was my first time. I am happy with the job they did. Time will tell. But one look at my friends 8 year old Audi was enough.
-- Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Frank - 23 Oct 2004 00:43 GMT I live in the rust belt of Ontario, and I have also been debating weather to rust proof my brand new RSX. I 've done A LOT of search and research and like you my dealer told me to avoid Rust Ckeck and Crown because of the seal issues. They also recommended Ziebart. However, I was not satisfied so I decided to call around and did some research to learn about the various products (wax vs. oil base), the pros and cons (wax does not drip, but craps and traps moisture and plugs drainage holes - oil make impact rubber seals). Yes, it is true that Krown will expend your seal, but all rubber seals on Acuras could indeed be affected, including boots or wires coated in rubber, etc....
I've also learn that most professional services drill holes. Krown does. Services who do not drill holes usually charge an arm and a leg and use a waxy paste that may infact crack and encourage rust. I've also learn that new Acura/Hondas are pretty good when it comes to rust protection so perhaps Rust Proofing may not be that helpful for your new EL.
Anyway, myself, I do not like the idea of having a monkey drill holes all over my car, so I simply decided to do it myself. . It was relatively easy and I feel I did as good of a job then any other services our there. Krown included.
I discovered that applying a rust proofing product is relatively easy to do from the inside of the car without damaging the various door panels and mouldings in the process. In fact, most areas that would technically require rust proofing are accessible from the inside of the car. I suspect the same is true for your own EL.
I focused my attention on reaching areas where older Acura/Hondas tend to rust the most. In Canada, these are mostly: inside rear fenders, inside doors and doorsills, and around the windshield. I have not seen significant rust perforation anywhere else on Hondas. Incidentally, these are areas where my Acura Integra 1991 started rusting AFTER I had applied crappy wax-based rust proofing (turns out that the product actually encouraged rusting by trapping moister -more on that below).
Here is what I did: (of course this varied depending on your car but I feel that this should be relatively easy on Civics, EL, TL, Accords, etc.. specially 2 door models
1) Hondas/Acura door panels can be removed relatively easily (usually only 4 screws) to install speakers, etc.And by removing the white plastic sheet glued to the door, you have access to the whole inside of the door. I sprayed liberally on the whole door -from the window all the way down, including around the door handle, locks, hinges, and all around, until it drips out from the drainage holes. Make sure that these holes remain unobstructed before placing the panels back. Use a pipe cleaner if they are.
2) Most of the rear fender is accessible by removing the rear speakers. It is extremely easy to do. However, reach in and remove the sound dampening material found inside, at the bottom BEFORE applying rust protection. It looks like a rectangle, soft foam pad (12 inches long, by 4" high and 4" deep) wrapped in thick plastic. I suspect that if one simply drilled holes and spray rustproof in there without removing the sound dampening material, as most shops would do, you will have a mess! Worst is one could be drilling into the plastic wrapper and only spray inside it - not very helpful. Good reason for D-I-Y!
3) You can also remove the doorplates quite easily and use their holes to spray the product.
4) I have also found that the rear hatch is easily "sprayable" by removing the oval rubber "guards" (i.e. door stopper the size of a wine bottle cork) on each side, and use their holes for spraying. Use the gravity in your favour and open the hatch all the way up. Leave it open and spray the product from the highest hole and let the product drip to the bottom holes.
5) The taillights area. You can remove a panel from inside the trunk to access that area. You can also go from above the license plate: there is an opening there that is pretty big.
6) Most sections of the front fenders can be reached via the engine bay.
When you think about it, it makes sense to DIY:
1) One does not need to drill holes in your shinny new toy! Holes can let more moisture in. Metal shavings from drilling can fall inside, encouraging rust. 2) I can apply the product exactly and only where I wanted: the services will spay their product liberally all over you car; some of it is doomed to go on the plastic, engine components, rubber gaskets, panels and eventually seep into them.
Some will get into the engine bay and make a urge mess. Some stain your paint... 3) None of the services will spray around the roof or windshield. I did. 4) I applyed it only where it makes sense, i.e. Where it most likely to rust (mainly the rear fenders and doors) 5) I avoided spraying on the rubber seals or gaskets (some product may damage rubber seals) 6) It is cheaper to do: approx. 24$ Canadian (or 17US), instead then $120-ish 7) It is relatively satisfying to do: messy but easy to do. 8) You WILL do a more thorough job: only you have a vested interest to do it right. 9) If you want, in addition to this, you still can get the car undercoated with an oil-based product at Wal-Mart (these monkeys cannot really screw up that, can they? I mean, how hard is it to spray the underside of the car). If you are in Canada, do NOT use the Corrosion-Free product from Canadian Tire. It is a mix oil and wax-based product and it actually caused my 91 Teg to rust something bad by trapping moisture and cracking.
Disadvantage of DIY: 1) Was not sure if I was applying too little so I will spray until it leaks out! I may have put too much, but I do not think this is possible ;-) 2) Not sure if I am spraying in all the right places. Perhaps I will miss some? 3) No warranty: Rust Check, Krown and others services provide a 10 year warranty against perforation. However, I am wondering if their warranty is indeed worth the paper they are written on. 4) It is messy. My wife hated the mess it did to the driveway. Next time I will do so parked over a dirt road. 5) The process needs to be repeated yearly.
Product to use: I have research this and found a few things about rust proofing products. First, there are the wax-based products (usually advertised as "no-drip") and oil-based products: heavy and light oil (both will drip!). I was told to stay away from wax as it dries, traps moisture, and can blocks drainage holes. This is what happened to my 1991 Teg which encourage it to rust. However, "Light Oil" goes everywhere, in all nooks and crannies, but it can stretch rubber seals and gaskets. If you are worried, you can protect your seals with silicone based spray first.
Overall, I used almost three full cans of Rust Check ($8 CDN each @ Canadian Tire) - apparently the best product for rust proofing available for retail sale (NOT THE UNDERCOATING ONE) - I thought of getting POR-15 (?), but it is quite expensive. Might be worth it if you want a "one application deal".
These cans were divided up this way: - 1 spray can for the both doors (they are nice and drippy!) - 1/2 for the both rear fenders - behind the doors and above the rear wheels (I went trough the speakers' opening and sprayed liberally in there. Not sure if I was able to spray way back, rear end of the wheel, though) - 1/2 for the front fenders (via the engine bay) - 1/8 for the roof area and the hatch and between bumper and licence plate. - 1/4 for the hood and inside the engine bay (very very little there, I hate to work in that slim).
Total Project Cost: 24$ Cdn (3 cans)
I did not do the undercarriage. I *might* consider having it done professionally with another oil based product as doing THIS is **messy**!
I am pretty sure I did a better job on the doors then what Krown or Rust Check would have done by drilling. I was really able to get up there into the nooks and all. Didn't spray on stuff I did not want either (pw motor, etc.). Door panels came off and on without a problem. Nothing broke. And the best of it. NO HOLES DRILLED!
I hope this helps you make a decision. By the way, if you are leasing, you SHOULD NOT EVEN WORRY about rust proofing it...
Cheers!
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > rustproofing? If > so which ones? Bruno - 23 Oct 2004 02:18 GMT >I 've done A LOT of search and research and >like you my dealer >told me to avoid Rust Ckeck and Crown because of the seal issues. >They also >recommended Ziebart. Your dealer recommended Ziebart. Ziebart uses the non-drip stuff, which traps moisture and doesn't get in all the nooks. Maybe your dealer wants to sell you more cars. Or maybe, like the guy who owns both Acura dealerships in my region, he also owns some Ziebart franchines.
-- Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Frank - 23 Oct 2004 02:29 GMT > On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:43:34 -0400, "Frank" <NOSPAM@NOSPAM.com> > jumped [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > both Acura dealerships in my region, he also owns some Ziebart > franchines. That is exactly why I did not go with ZIEBART- in fact, all no-drip product have certain amount of wax. It's the wax that eventually dries and makes it retain moisture. That is why I did it myself with light oil based product from rust check. My dealer, however, do not own Ziebart around here. I think there is some kick back, however.
Bill Freeman - 23 Oct 2004 04:53 GMT "Coatings" (e.g. Ziebart for one) are known "profit builders" that do little for rust prevention, as everyone has mentioned. Rust proofing has to be done AT THE FACTORY on BARE METAL during the priming/painting process. I've a 1990 Acura Integra .. . no rust after nearly 15 years .. . Mid-Atlantic and New England weather. Recommend washing the salt off when/where you can, annual repair of scratches and chips and use of "Derusto" on any rusted areas. Poppy cock on Honda gaskets being bad. Use silicone to prevent ice freezing and ozone cracking.
> > On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:43:34 -0400, "Frank" <NOSPAM@NOSPAM.com> > > jumped [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > dealer, however, do not own Ziebart around here. I think there is > some kick back, however. Jeremiah - 23 Oct 2004 14:35 GMT >> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:43:34 -0400, "Frank" <NOSPAM@NOSPAM.com> >> jumped [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > dealer, however, do not own Ziebart around here. I think there is > some kick back, however. I've never seen or had with any cars done with Ziebart, going back to 1963 with the first one I had done. After 29 years in western PA, the '63 had absolutely no rust problems. I've personally had a new '89 TBird done, and after 15 years in IL, no. VA, and IN, had no rust problems. The trouble with oil based products is that they usually have to be 'renewed' annually. But with the new treatments being done at the factories now, these problems may have been resolved. Maybe,.....! LOL
Frank - 23 Oct 2004 16:44 GMT I guess we pretty much all agree that new cars are well protected at the factory against rust and most likely do not require more protection. Is this correct? For me, anything extra applied aftermarket is pretty much for my peace of mind: at best, it does protect, at worst, you would hope that is does nothing (as opposed to encourage rust).
Yes, light oil products needs to be reapplied annually. I only know of one product here that does not need annual application but it is 1200$ CDN and no longer warranty. However, I am warry of the drying effect, and the product trapping moisture.
As for Zeibart, the 2 Zeibart franchises here in Ottawa told me that I needed to come back annually (at 49.99$ CDN a visit) for reapplication. So I, here, Zeibart is telling us to reapply annually, just like Krown or Rust Check.
Anyways, I like working on my car. I am no mechanic, but I like it. Plus, 30$ for the product and 2 hours of my time is nothing. And you are never better served but by yourself, right? I am quite sure I applied as much (or more) of the product, and exactly where I wanted it.I posted my DIY experience here and a few other places others can realize that it is not that complicated and if they want to do it, they can do so themselves.
I was thinking, perhaps, of going to Krown or Rust Check with the inside panels off and ask them to apply it as much as they can without drilling holes. Pehaps I will do so every third year, and DIY for years in between.
Cheers all!
>>> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:43:34 -0400, "Frank" >>> <NOSPAM@NOSPAM.com> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > these problems > may have been resolved. Maybe,.....! LOL Bruno - 23 Oct 2004 22:04 GMT >I was thinking, perhaps, of going to Krown or Rust Check with the >inside panels off and ask them to apply it as much as they can >without drilling holes. Pehaps I will do so every third year, and >DIY for years in between. Actually, you can go to Krown and buy their stuff in a spray can. You can use it as a general purpose lubricant, too. Kinda like WD-40. And it's not petroleum based.
-- Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Kevin Kennedy - 24 Oct 2004 00:14 GMT >>I 've done A LOT of search and research and >>like you my dealer [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. Hi I have had several Honda's and currently have an RSX, now 2 yrs old.. I have never purchased aftermarket rust proofing on any of these cars, and the last car, an accord had one little rust spot at 7 yrs. The car in question spent 2 yrs in Pittsburgh and 5 yrs in the Northshore of MA by the ocean. The Prelude before that was 8yrs old and had no rust at all. They use a lot of salt around here..
Frank - 24 Oct 2004 01:26 GMT >> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:43:34 -0400, "Frank" >> <NOSPAM@NOSPAM.com> jumped [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Prelude before that was 8yrs old and had no rust at all. They > use a lot of salt around here.. It good to see they have improved their fabrication processes. Thanks
Neal Hudson - 24 Oct 2004 18:52 GMT I live in southern California and have no idea what you folks are talking about; salt, snow, rust ?
> >> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:43:34 -0400, "Frank" > >> <NOSPAM@NOSPAM.com> jumped [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > It good to see they have improved their fabrication processes. > Thanks Bruno - 24 Oct 2004 19:48 GMT >I live in southern California and have no idea what you folks are talking >about; salt, snow, rust ? Salt you put on your food, snow you put up your nose, and rust is what you get after a hard day's work.
-- Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Lee Florack - 24 Oct 2004 21:29 GMT >I live in southern California and have no idea what you folks are talking >about; salt, snow, rust ? ..and we have no idea about the multiple fires, mudslides, thick smog and earthquakes that you have. :-)
Neal Hudson - 25 Oct 2004 05:30 GMT actually, where i live (south bay, San Pedro/ Torrance) there are no fires, mud slides, smog and few earthquakes. BUT there is so darn much traffic that you can't enjoy driving the car ;o) Wonder if a TL could out run a hurricane ?!
> >I live in southern California and have no idea what you folks are talking > >about; salt, snow, rust ? > ..and we have no idea about the multiple fires, mudslides, thick > smog and earthquakes that you have. :-) Lee Florack - 02 Nov 2004 01:18 GMT >actually, where i live (south bay, San Pedro/ Torrance) there are no fires, >mud slides, smog and few earthquakes. BUT there is so darn much traffic >that you can't enjoy driving the car ;o) Wonder if a TL could out run a >hurricane ?! It could -- if everyone else trying to do the same thing wasn't in the way :-)
Bruno - 25 Oct 2004 16:15 GMT >I live in southern California and have no idea what you folks are talking >about; salt, snow, rust ? Salt you put on your food, snow you put up your nose, and rust is what you get after a hard day's work.
-- Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
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