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Car Forum / Acura Cars / April 2005Abnormal Rotor Wear
Hi all - I have an 02 TL-S, purchased at ~20K miles, now at 64K miles. When I bought the car (CarMax), the rotors needed to be resurfaced - done by CarMax. I had them turned again at ~30K miles by the dealer, then all 4 rotors and pads replaced by Acura for free under a Service Bulletin at ~40K miles (the bulletin was for the pads - and included new pads and rotors - WOOT!). I had these turned again at ~50K, right before the warranty expired. At 60K, they needed it again, so I took it back to the dealer hoping they would resolve this once and for all as this is an "ongoing" problem - no dice. The dealer was sympathetic, and forwarded the request to Corporate Acura who told me over the phone after a 3 day wait that they will not warranty rotors outside of the 50K coverage, period. So I waited a few months, and just had them turned again with the purchase of new tires at 64K. That is FIVE times in ~44K miles (20, 30, 40, 50, 64). I really don't have a problem with the 50K issue as I know this is considered a "wear item", and the pads are wearing evenly - so I don't believe this is an issue with the calipers (but looking for guidance). Is there anything outside of my driving style that could explain the problems I am having with these? This was my last "turn" on this set before they need to be replaced again (in 10K miles), and I will likely go with slotted or drilled for my next set to hopefully alleviate the problem. I'm 35 years old and drive around most of the time with a 2 year old in the back seat - I don't think I would really consider myself an aggressive driver. My previous cars were a '91 Integra, '87 200SX, '88 Legend, and '99 Honda Accord......I never had this type of problem with any of these. I also know the TLS has oversized rotors compared to the regular TL anyway, and I would expect a longer life from these things - everyone I talk to (including the dealer) says this is not normal, but say everything else looks OK and the brakes seem to stop just fine - no pulling, etc., when braking. Any ideas ? Thanks! - Mike >Hi all - > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >- Mike There is something strange going on. To put it in perspective, my 90 Legend has 175K miles. The fronts have been turned ONCE, very lightly. That was because the tell tales broke off on BOTH front pads and the pads wore all the way down and scraped a little. That's with over 130K miles with metallic pads. What indicates that the rotors need to be turned? Um, ouch. :-) I should note that all of these save the last one were done for free....so no real skin off my back until recently. Thanks for the reply. As for WHY I have them done - vibration when braking is the symptom...begins at higher speeds, and as time goes on becomes more noticeable even at lower speeds. I have *Zero* problems outside of braking. Turning / replacing the rotors has resolved the problem every time so far.....but just for a little while. I realize replacement may be better than turning, but if replacements only last the same mileage - why bother with the expense? My most recent visit for tires included brake inspection, including a nice long discussion with the mechanic who could find nothing wrong outside of the rotors, and measurements on the rotors confirmed that they did indeed need to be turned (Sorry I don't remember the numbers). The dealer supposedly checked each time as well, and came to the same conclusion. I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - can you give me a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, since I have even brake pad wear, and why turning the rotors would resolve it temporarily ? I should note I have heard in the past that improperly torqued lug nuts can cause issues with rotors - I always loosen and re-torque my wheels after any service visit to 80 ft/lbs. I also have not noted any rust, etc., when mounting the tire that I would expect to cause a vibration. I also don't race, and I live in the flatlands. :-) Thanks! - Mike > >Hi all - > > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > What indicates that the rotors need to be turned? >Thanks for the reply. As for WHY I have them done - vibration when braking >is the symptom...begins at higher speeds, and as time goes on becomes more >noticeable even at lower speeds. What sort of vibration? Pedal pulsation or just a sort of juddery feeling? I drive in mountain country and have noticed a mild vibration when the brakes are hot that goes away when they cool. > I have *Zero* problems outside of braking. >Turning / replacing the rotors has resolved the problem every time so [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >wrong outside of the rotors, and measurements on the rotors confirmed that >they did indeed need to be turned Because of what? Thickness variation? Scouring? Are your wheel bearings OK? > (Sorry I don't remember the numbers). The >dealer supposedly checked each time as well, and came to the same >conclusion. Here's an extensive dissertation on the subject: http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf100326.htm >I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - Well that's hyperbole, but I'm of the opinion that rotor turning is done far too often and for no good reason. I've been working on my own disc brakes for 30 years and have yet to turn a rotor. I've had newsgroup exchanges with mechanics who say that they turn rotors on customer's cars as a CYA procedure, to prevent callbacks. They admit they wouldn't turn the rotor if it was their own car. >can you give me >a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, If the rotor actually is out of spec with thickness variations, wheel bearings come to mind. See the website above for details. >since I have even brake >pad wear, and why turning the rotors would resolve it temporarily ? I >should note I have heard in the past that improperly torqued lug nuts can >cause issues with rotors - That's been a bone of contention in this newsgroup before. Some say yay, and some say nay. >I always loosen and re-torque my wheels after any >service visit to 80 ft/lbs. I also have not noted any rust, etc., when >mounting the tire that I would expect to cause a vibration. I also don't >race, and I live in the flatlands. :-) All a slotted rotor can do for you is to dissipate the vapour that tends to form between pad and rotor under extreme braking. Aftermarket slotted rotors might be of better quality metal. > Um, ouch. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > dealer supposedly checked each time as well, and came to the same > conclusion. Not an expert, but my experience is that warped rotors often result from overtightening the lug nuts. Once I started using a torque wrench on lug nuts I stopped having warped rotors. Mike >Hi all - > >I have an 02 TL-S, purchased at ~20K miles, now at 64K miles. When I bought >the car (CarMax), the rotors needed to be resurfaced - Why? > done by CarMax. I >had them turned again at ~30K miles by the dealer, Again... why? then all 4 rotors and >pads replaced by Acura for free under a Service Bulletin at ~40K miles (the >bulletin was for the pads - and included new pads and rotors - WOOT!). I >had these turned again at ~50K, What for? Chances are they didn't need it. >right before the warranty expired. At 60K, >they needed it again, Again why? Who's telling you all this 'resurfacing' needs to be done? >so I took it back to the dealer hoping they would >resolve this once and for all as this is an "ongoing" problem - no dice. Of course not! Their bottom line needs you! >The dealer was sympathetic, and forwarded the request to Corporate Acura who >told me over the phone after a 3 day wait that they will not warranty rotors >outside of the 50K coverage, period. So I waited a few months, and just had >them turned again What for? What's the need for all this rotor turning business? Never turn Honda rotors, it's not worth it. If they're bad enough to really need turning ( grooved more than 1/8 inch) replace them. >with the purchase of new tires at 64K. That is FIVE times >in ~44K miles (20, 30, 40, 50, 64). And I'll bet not one of them was necessary! >I really don't have a problem with the 50K issue as I know this is >considered a "wear item", and the pads are wearing evenly - so I don't >believe this is an issue with the calipers (but looking for guidance). Is >there anything outside of my driving style that could explain the problems I >am having with these? Yeah, somebody is telling you your rotors need turning when they don't. >This was my last "turn" on this set before they need >to be replaced again (in 10K miles), and I will likely go with slotted or >drilled for my next set to hopefully alleviate the problem. Do you race? Do you drive down steep mountain grades? If not you don't need slotted rotors. You need an honest mechanic, and I don't mean a dealer. >the brakes seem to stop just fine - no pulling, etc., when braking. > >Any ideas ? Yeah. Next time you're told your rotors need turning, spit in the guys eye and go look for an honest mechanic. See also: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#brakes Um, ouch. :-) I should note that all of these save the last one were done for free....so no real skin off my back until recently. Thanks for the reply. As for WHY I have them done - vibration when braking is the symptom...begins at higher speeds, and as time goes on becomes more noticeable even at lower speeds. I have *Zero* problems outside of braking. Turning / replacing the rotors has resolved the problem every time so far.....but just for a little while. I realize replacement may be better than turning, but if replacements only last the same mileage - why bother with the expense? My most recent visit for tires included brake inspection, including a nice long discussion with the mechanic who could find nothing wrong outside of the rotors, and measurements on the rotors confirmed that they did indeed need to be turned (Sorry I don't remember the numbers). The dealer supposedly checked each time as well, and came to the same conclusion. I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - can you give me a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, since I have even brake pad wear, and why turning the rotors would resolve it temporarily ? I should note I have heard in the past that improperly torqued lug nuts can cause issues with rotors - I always loosen and re-torque my wheels after any service visit to 80 ft/lbs. I also have not noted any rust, etc., when mounting the tire that I would expect to cause a vibration. I also don't race, and I live in the flatlands. :-) Thanks! - Mike > >Hi all - > > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > See also: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#brakes > Um, ouch. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > torqued lug nuts can cause issues with rotors - I always loosen and > re-torque my wheels after any service visit to 80 ft/lbs. By then,the warping may have already started. >I also have > not noted any rust, etc., when mounting the tire that I would expect [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > - Mike Does this always happen on the same wheel? (maybe a wheel has unlevel surfaces on the inside that mates to the rotor,warping it) Maybe the problem moves as you rotate wheels? Do you tighten the lugs in a cross-pattern,or just go around,one after another? Do you snug them down first,then torque,or just tighten to torque spec? Perhaps one stud has thread damage,throwing off the torque reading? I believe that rotors are only able to be turned once,then they get too thin to be turned again.(legally) Some here are of the opinion that turning the rotors even once makes them prone to warping. Warping would cause vibration when braking.  SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >> I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - can you >> give me a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, since I [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > prone to warping. > Warping would cause vibration when braking. Count me in that group who suspects rotors that have been turned are more susceptible to warping. I don't have any evidence but I did stop having rotors turned as soon as I could afford to. My belief is that the reason for minimum thickness being less than new thickness is to allow for wear. Also, I think rotors that have been turned because they were warped will re-warp because of stresses formed during braking when they were warped - it seems likely any rotor that doesn't brake evenly will also heat unevenly during braking. Somebody recently directed me to a website that had a section on brake rotor warping. It made a lot of sense, pointing out that what we speak of as "warping" isn't lateral runout, where the rotor is bent, but is variation in the thickness of the rotor as it rotates. Just like the acceleration bumps on a dirt road, the thickened areas get worse as time goes on. Disclaimer - I am not an expert on this, these are my own beliefs. Mike I had all my 4 rotors turned and had no problems, but I was smart and used OEM pads, not aftermarket crap. But it was done on the car using a lathe, not off the car. Those one take way too much out of rotor to be useable. >>> I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - can you >>> give me a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, since I [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Mike >I had all my 4 rotors turned and had no problems, but I was smart and used >OEM pads, not aftermarket crap. But it was done on the car using a lathe, >not off the car. Those one take way too much out of rotor to be useable. OEM is really the way to go. The last time I changed pads on my Volvo I used OEM pads and BAP rotors. The rotors are more seriously worn than the pads now! The original rotors made it nearly 200K miles with less wear than that. Mike Normally only the front two rotors need to be turned, but to be honest I'm not sure if one side is worse than the other. I have my tires rotated at every oil change (~7000 miles - I use Mobil 1 synthetic). As for my torquing process, I walk around the car, and loosen all bolts on all wheels (I do not raise the car - just do this while it sits in the garage. I try to do this the same day the car has been brought home after service. I then semi-tighten in a star-pattern, and then torque to 80 ft/lbs in the same pattern. I then move to the next wheel as I make my way around the car. I am unaware of an issue with threads - but to be quite honest I have never looked. One thing I should mention, as you made me consider it with your post.....I do have ONE rim that is ever-so-slightly off balance. I had some vibration issues once at high speeds (70mph+), that I thought was simple tire balancing. The dealer found nothing....but it was recommended I took the car to a Tire Kingdom that has a "road-force-balancing" machine, which I understand are quite rare. If you are unaware, this is a machine that puts pressure on the tire as it spins on the balancer, and provides a MUCH more accurate balance than a standard machine. Supposedly takes a lot of training, and a LONG time to run - about an hour for 4 wheels, and costs around $100. It can indicate if there is a problem with a wheel, or a problem with a tire, that is causing the vibration. They determined there was a SLIGHT issue with my rim, and were able to move the tire on the rim so that the balance came out even. I should note that the tire/rim combination balances PERFECTLY on a standard machine - but only the "road-force-balance" resolved the high speed vibration problem. I am not sure if such a miniscule problem (remember it balances fine on a normal machine) would have an affect on the rotors - and I would hate to spend $250 on a new rim for no reason. But now I am curious. :-) >> Um, ouch. :-) >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > prone to warping. > Warping would cause vibration when braking. Do you by chance drive with one foot on the brake pedal at all times? Maybe the Acura pedal is a little more sensitive than you are used to and you are keeping the brakes hot and causing excessive wear on the rotors due to the constant drag. John > Hi all - > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - Mike "hlshadow" wrote: > Hi all - > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > - Mike If the dealer does not install a generous amount of brake grease on the slider pins, the pads could be staying clenched against the rotor causing abnormal wear rates.
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