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Car Forum / Acura Cars / March 2005It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.
There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site. Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of automobiles with automatic transmissions. In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002, 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the manual transmission was widely predicted. Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five new cars. In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988. Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to follow. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/NewPassengerCarFleet.htm > There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site. > Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/NewPassengerCarFleet.htm On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. It's kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the decision tough. If we get fuel cells in marketable condition there may not be multiple gears anymore. You'll just have a knob to select how much regenerative braking you want when you take your foot off the throttle. Crank up regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle changes. >> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site. >> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. Sure you can. Both the Civic and Insight hybrid models are available with MT. Accord hybrid comes only with AT for now, but you can get an MT on your V6 Accord now so it isn't implausible that the hybrid may get it eventually. > It's >kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle >changes. I think that it will be a long time before fuel cell cars are any more than a curiosity. > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with manual transmissions..... >> On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. > > shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with > manual transmissions..... It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an "electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would be less confusing. Honda's IMA (integrated motor assist) works fine with a manual; Toyotas SHS (synergy hybrid system) could never have one, if only because the driver has no control over whether the engine is even running. Mike >It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have >a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an >"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a >differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a >transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would >be less confusing. Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque. In rec.autos.makers.honda Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote: > Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but > I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary > gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you > wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between > the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque. Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio. I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.  Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 > I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the > Escape. The Escape uses pretty much the same system as what Toyota uses, which is way different than the straightforward Honda Integrated Motor Assist. >Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid >with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference >to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy. Try this treatise: http://home.earthlink. net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm. It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power motor/generators. Another reference: http://www.me.utexas.edu/~tomr/body.htm >>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid >>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power > motor/generators. That site is by Graham Davies, one of the genuine Prius gurus. He writes that he looked into it very carefully, and it is true - under many conditions MG1 is used as a generator to provide power to MG2. It makes my head hurt to visualize it. Mike >That site is by Graham Davies, one of the genuine Prius gurus. He writes >that he looked into it very carefully, and it is true - under many >conditions MG1 is used as a generator to provide power to MG2. It makes my >head hurt to visualize it. Yep. That's how you can have a 50 kW motor, but only a 25 (30?) kW battery driving it. Sometimes, actually quite often, at least part of the electric power to drive the second motor comes from the ICE driving the first motor as a generator. Basically, an electric transmission. Generally I would not expect that to be as efficient as a mechanical clutch. So the Prius system acts as both a mechanical and electrical transmission. >>That site is by Graham Davies, one of the genuine Prius gurus. He writes >>that he looked into it very carefully, and it is true - under many [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > So the Prius system acts as both a mechanical and electrical > transmission. The efficiency is supposed to be about 90%, considerably less than a manual gearbox. OTOH, it allows the engine to operate in more efficient ranges more of the time, so it's an overall gain in city driving. On the freeway it would be hard to beat a manual tranny for efficiency. (I understand ATs with lockup come close.) There is a narrow speed/power mode where MG1 is stationary and the transmission is strictly mechanical. I think that speed is different in the first generation Prius (before 2004 MY) than with the second generation, because the MG maximum speeds are different now. Mike >>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't >>have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between > the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque. By that way of looking at it, SHS has two transmissions, like pretty much all cars. The planetary "power split device" is a skewed differential and could have been made like a typical differential if ruggedness weren't important. No gears ever shift, there are no clutches or belts or hydraulics or solenoids or forks. It is all fixed gearing, which makes it different from automatic transmissions. The device should be bulletproof as long as the lubricant is kept up, without the weaknesses of manual trannies (no synchros, no clutch, no gear crunches possible). The way I describe the system is to visualize an engine connected straight through to a differential. Instead of wheels, there is a motor/generator on each side of that differential. Connect another conventional differential and wheel setup to one side, and there you have it. Mike > > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. > > shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with > manual transmissions..... sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT (probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I can have the best of both worlds. > I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT > (probably because Prius came out first), No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius: 2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003. The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the current Civic Hybrid. The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward. Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck. >No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius: >2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003. In the US, you are correct. But the Prius was released in Japan and Europe before the Insight was produced. Honda reportedly rushed out the Insight to beat Toyota to the US market. Succesfully I would say as a lot of people think Honda made the first commercial hybrid! > No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius: > 2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003. OK fine, is this better? =) I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT (probably because Prius was the first hybrid to be popularized in the mainstream US media). In rec.autos.makers.honda Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote: > The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward. > Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck. I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to understand, and rather obvious in operation. I don't understand the Escape very well yet. Definitely a different animal, and a precursor for the heavy hybrid (no pun towards the weight of the SUV). The electric-only mode could be extended with a heavier battery set and different logic so that it could operate completely electric and be charged at night, and yet have the gas engine for long distance usage. I have seen 99mpg on my average mileage display over a 10 mile stretch of commute traffic. Then the engine starts, and the mpg plummets ;-) I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid. Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 > In rec.autos.makers.honda Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to > understand, and rather obvious in operation. Honda tends to refer to IMA that way, as "electric supercharging" or something like that. Honda's approach is fundamentally different from Toyota's - Honda is more focused on the aspect of hybridization as a way of making acceleration performance independent of engine size. The engine is sized for hill-climbing capability, and electric is added to give it more snap. In theory, Honda's IMA can be used to make cars with better power/weight ratios for acceleration than is possible with an engine alone. Honda's DualNote concept car (http://www.supercars.net/cars/2001@$Honda@$Dualnote%20Conceptx.html) was introduced in 2001, and Honda engineers reported the electric assist gave it off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp engine. When we realize the technology is in its infancy, the future is amazing indeed. Mike >I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if >it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to >understand, and rather obvious in operation. Honda did report on this. I forget the exact numbers, but it is something like 1/3 due to the hybrid itself (regen, more efficient power management), 1/3 engine downsizing and advanced technology, and 1/3 lightweighting of the vehicle. Something like that. >I don't understand the Escape very well yet. Same as Prius. See other posts. >I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next >generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid. Definitely doable. But it all depends what you want out of a vehicle, and what you are willing to pay. Extended operation off the battery requires a bigger, higher energy capacity battery. The cost of the battery (and mass and volume) are pretty much directly proportional to that energy capacity. And if you want sustained performance, ex: climbing Baker Grade in california towing a trailer, you still need a lot of continuous capability. In rec.autos.makers.honda Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote: >>I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next >>generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid. > Definitely doable. But it all depends what you want out of a > vehicle, and what you are willing to pay. Extended operation off > the battery requires a bigger, higher energy capacity battery. I would have purchased a pure electric car, except that it didn't have enough range. If the Electric-Gas hybrid had an electric-only range of 30-40 miles, that would suffice for most around town runs, but the gas would always be available for the cross country jaunts. Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 > And if you want sustained performance, ex: climbing Baker Grade in > california towing a trailer, you still need a lot of continuous > capability. Definitely. This will probably be an area where hybridization appears last - towing packages and trucks of all sorts. The IMA approach is still attractive (in a technical sense) in that it can improve passing ability and the ability to gain speed after a stop, but I think it will be a long time before the economics of that make sense. Turbocharging is better for towing and trucks, and even that still isn't universal yet. And as to the topic, I've driven manual and AT rental trucks up grades and I despise autos for that sort of thing. They also bite the big one off road, especially on slippery snow/mud roads. Throttle/slippage is much easier to control with a manual. Mike > >I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if > >it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > power management), 1/3 engine downsizing and advanced technology, > and 1/3 lightweighting of the vehicle. Something like that. I doubt that IMA can return over 30% in fuel consumption. I recall, on Edmund's Hybrid Forum, one of the Insight driver was operating without IMA. He was still getting over 50mpg, without any electrical assist. The IMA might return over 30% in optimum condition, but from normal driving, It's probably more like 15%. I think Honda's Hybrid system could be improved if the battary capacy was improved and the car was allowed to charge-up overnight (or the IMA can be user programmed to expect overnight charging). In this case the 30% improvement could become a norm. Honda's system does seem more cost effective when compared to more complicated and expenive system. I'm looking forward to seeing the system on more low priced entry level cars. Hopefully, Honda will bring back the Insight (which is in it's last year of production), but with a go-fast suspension system and a better IMA mated to the 1.3L. Pars > >I don't understand the Escape very well yet. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > california towing a trailer, you still need a lot of continuous > capability. > >I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if > >it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > power management), 1/3 engine downsizing and advanced technology, > and 1/3 lightweighting of the vehicle. Something like that. But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas motor. > >I don't understand the Escape very well yet. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > california towing a trailer, you still need a lot of continuous > capability. > But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the > electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's > switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little > activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas > motor. thats kinda cool. i wonder if they can use that in place of balance shafts? > > But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the > > electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > thats kinda cool. i wonder if they can use that in place of balance shafts? It's probably technically possible but I bet it would eat a lot of power. How much does the balancer weigh? The 05 Accord Hybrid engine seems to rev up slowly compared to my simple old 97 Civic HX. It's the one thing that disappoints me a little - major downshift lag when stepping on the gas. It makes me miss a 5 speed manual. In rec.autos.makers.honda Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote: > How much does the balancer weigh? The 05 Accord Hybrid engine seems to > rev up slowly compared to my simple old 97 Civic HX. It's the one thing > that disappoints me a little - major downshift lag when stepping on the > gas. It makes me miss a 5 speed manual. I don't think it would affect the balancer at all. On the other hand, there wouldn't be a flywheel, since the IMA is effectively the flywheel. That would help smoothness at idle. Engine RPM when blipping the throttle could be part "drive by wire". There's a lot of computerized engine control involved. The Civic still has a throttle cable. I don't know about the Accord. The Ford Escape does not. In the Ford, blipping the throttle does absolutley nothing unless you go beyond about 2/3 throttle, at which point the RPM climbs rather slowly, maybe 2 seconds to 3000 RPM. It could also be the heavy flywheel affect of the IMA. Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 >But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the >electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's >switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little >activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas >motor. True, but note that the vast majority of the time (or at least on the wimpy EPA certification cycles!) very little of that 240 hp is actually used. To be sure, the Accord is a lot heavier and less aerodynamic than the Insight. So it would benefit from a bigger battery. But (as you no doubt know) the proportion of battery to ICE size doesn't need stay the same as ICE power goes ballistic. In rec.autos.makers.honda Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote: > But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the > electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's > switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little > activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas > motor. It seems to be exactly the same as the Civic, almost the same as the original Insight, and completely different from the Prius and Escape. The point about the motor being tiny is true, though. The benefit from idle-stop is still there, as is the cleanliness of the engine at initial takeoff, where the ICE wouldn't normally be very efficient. The Accord IMA produces 12% more hp than the Civic. --- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 >>There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site. >>Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the > decision tough. Say again? A quick look at the Yahoo Autos tells me that the 2005 Civic Hydrid is available with a 5-speed manual transmission. The same goes for the Insight. > There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site. > Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/NewPassengerCarFleet.htm Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same car which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic, easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever... and all range of cars started to have this kind of transmission.. from cheap econobox such as Toyota Yaris 1.0 liter to expensive cars like MB and BMW. I just bought a 1.2 liter Opel Corsa with Easytronic transmission. It has 5 forward gears and you can shift the gears manualy if you want and it gets considerably better gas mielage compared to the same car with stick shift (6.8 liters / 100 kms in city versus 7.8 liters / 100 kms in city driving). Ahmet Turkey > Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same car > which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic, > easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever... of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission... ahmet >> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same >car [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one >with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission... Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I believe your "Easytronic" is the latter? I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like every other automatic. > >> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same > >car [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I > believe your "Easytronic" is the latter? I think you are correct.. Opel calls it a clutchless automatic or semi automatic. When it shifts the gear, it is not as smooth as normal automatics..You definitely feel it. a slight pause and the shift. if you take your foot off of the gas pedal slightly, it shifts easier or less noticeably. It also moves backward when you are on a very slight incline and your foot is not on the brake just like regular 5 speeds. > I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually > manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the > novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like > every other automatic. Well., same here too..first couple of times I stole the car from my wife, I shifted myself and got tired of it and quit... ahmet >>> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same >>car [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I > believe your "Easytronic" is the latter? My mind drifts back to earlier days.... Around 1970 Renault offered an unusual (okay, *everything* about Renault was unusual, at least in those days) automatic transmission for the R16. It was a solenoid shifted manual transmission with a powdered iron clutch. The clutch was an electromagnet with steel clutch plates inside and the space inbetween was packed with iron filings. When the magnet was energized the clutch engaged. (I don't know what did the shifting.) I hear their unique creation had reliability problems - I wonder why ;-) The 70s sure were not the good old days of automotive technology! Mike >>> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same >>car [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I >believe your "Easytronic" is the latter? I would be surprised if these were classified as MTs. The stats actually specify % AT and I would bet that any transmission that had the capability to fully automatic would qualify. You have always been able to manually shift an AT if you like. >I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually >manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the >novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like >every other automatic. Probably a good thing too as you would probably wear it out if you started aggressively shifting it. The Problem is that Tiptronic et al. don't really give you the control of an MT in that you can't separate the engine from the drive train to allow rpm matching. Now if they would use the same system used in the F1 cars it might be a different story. But I think even they have a clutch pedal for standing starts. >>I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually >>manually shift. [...] >Probably a good thing too as you would probably wear it out if you >started aggressively shifting it. The Problem is that Tiptronic et >al. don't really give you the control of an MT in that you can't >separate the engine from the drive train to allow rpm matching. Ah, but it is a fluidic separation between the two through the torque converter. So, what are you saying would wear out? > There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site. > Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/NewPassengerCarFleet.htm I wish they'd put a MT in the 4 door accord V6. Using a pronoun @ the start of a paragraph / sentence, before the subject matter is introduced, indicates low IQ ; nobody will know what the pronoun represents, before the subject matter is introduced. > Using a pronoun @ the start of a paragraph / sentence, before > the subject matter is introduced, indicates low IQ ; nobody will > know what the pronoun represents, before the subject matter is > introduced. What are you talking about??? Mike >Using a pronoun @ the start of a paragraph / sentence, before >the subject matter is introduced, indicates low IQ ; nobody will >know what the pronoun represents, before the subject matter is >introduced. It's official. You're an idiot. Inability to comprehend common, informal English indicates low IQ or perhaps unfamiliarity with the language. Either way, you shouldn't be giving us English lessons. No one else has a problem understanding the phrase, "It's official." But then, no one else thinks that the electric clock is robbing their car of performance. >... no one else thinks that the electric clock is robbing their >car of performance. Not the LED type clock, anyway. SignatureI'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. >>... no one else thinks that the electric clock is robbing their >>car of performance. > >Not the LED type clock, anyway. Ooops! I'm sorry! I meant LCD clocks. The LED clocks do suck quite a bit of power. SignatureI'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
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