1989 Sterling 827SL Ignition output problem one spark only

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Sterling - 23 May 2005 21:33 GMT

Hello, I have a 1989 sterling 827SL which has a acura legend engine.
The car stopped while I was driveing. I checked for spark out of coil
using a spark tester. with the first crank of the engin I get only one
spark and then there is no spark after that. If I turn the ignition
switch off and repeat the process, I get one weak spart out of the
coil and then nothing. I checked the resistance of the coil and it is
within spec. the ECU flashes 15 times indicating a igniter problem
according to the code. I replaced the coil, the distributer, and the
igniter and I saw no change in the spark. Battery voltage is present
to th ecoil and the igniter. If I disconnect the igniter connector and
turn the ignition switch on, the CHECK ENGINE warning light will stay
on, but if I connect the igniter connector back on, the and turn th
eignition on the CHECK ENGINE warning light will go OFF after 2
seconds. The troubleshooting steps tells me the CHECK ENGINE warning
light should flash ON and OFF during cranking of the engine, this is
not happening. Please help.

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TeGGeR® - 24 May 2005 00:16 GMT

> Hello, I have a 1989 sterling 827SL which has a acura legend engine.
> The car stopped while I was driveing. I checked for spark out of coil
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> light should flash ON and OFF during cranking of the engine, this is
> not happening. Please help.

Under normal conditions, the Check Engine light should illuminate solidly
for TWO seconds when the key is turned to START. During this two seconds,
the fuel pump will run, then the pump and light will simultaneously turn
off.

It is distressingly easy to damage the coil by failing to provide it with a
good path to ground through its secondary connector (the one that leads to
the rotor). You can effect this by cranking the engine with the distributor
cap off, wires disconnected, or using aftermarket plug wires without the
correct resistance.

Using aftermarket plug wires with insufficient resistance will damage the
RF capacitor in the rotor, and then wreck the coil soon afterwards.

That code 15 you see only means the ECU is not seeing current when it
attempts to ground the white igniter wire. It DOES NOT necessarily indicate
a problem with the igniter itself. Code 15 can be set if there is a
corroded or broken white wire between the igniter and the ECU.

Check that white wire. It supplies the ground to ECU for both the igniter
and the coil. If it and ALL its connectors are OK, including the one inside
the distributor, then I suspect you have damaged your new coil.

Replace the coil with a new one, and also replace the rotor, distributor
cap and wires with brand-new OEM, or aftermarket with the correct
resistances. DO NOT attempt to crank the engine until everything has been
replaced and reconnected.

Also make certain that the plug gaps are reasonably correct. Very
excessively worn plugs can increase secondary voltage to the point of
damaging the coil.

Please report back here. Feedback is necessary for the functioning of
Usenet.

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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Sterling - 25 May 2005 05:33 GMT

> > Hello, I have a 1989 sterling 827SL which has a acura legend
> engine.
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> functioning of
> Usenet.

The code 15 error is gone. I check for good ground path and check the
resistance of the spark plug wire set, they are all within the spek,
it has a new totor and disributer cap. there is no short in in all the
wire in the ignition circuit. I replaced the coil with a new one and
still have the same one spark problem. I think as the ignition is
turned ON the ECU will see the crank angle senor, the crank angle
sensor wires are directly connected to the ECU. The two wire from the
disributer also directly connected to the distributer. the 12 volt
and GND are present at the primery coil and to the igniter, there is
good continuity between the blue/red wire going from ECU to the
igniter. there is a single blue wire going between the igniter and the
primery coil which Idon’t know what it should mesure. so this is a
close loop circuit for the ignition. The only thing Ihave not changed
is the crank angle sensor. what do youthink? thanks

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TeGGeR® - 26 May 2005 01:39 GMT

<x-posted to the other Honda group>

Somebody from there may know what the ECU uses for ignition dwell.

(Note to non-British readers: The Sterling 827 is basically an Accord with
a 2.7L engine.)

<BIG snip>

> The code 15 error is gone. I check for good ground path and check the
> resistance of the spark plug wire set, they are all within the spek,
> it has a new totor and disributer cap. there is no short in in all the
> wire in the ignition circuit. I replaced the coil with a new one and
> still have the same one spark problem. I think as the ignition is
> turned ON the ECU will see the crank angle senor,

The ECU uses the crank angle sensor to determine if the engine is turning
or not. The TDC sensor is used for ignition timing at startup.

You are suggesting that a faulty crank angle sensor may cause dwell time to
be too short. Too short of a dwell time would result in a weak or non-
existent spark. It sounds plausible...but I don't know what the ECU's input
for dwell is, and it does not explain your "one spark" phenomenon.

However, a problem with the CRANK, TDC or CYL sensors circuits are
/supposed/ to set a 4, 8, or 9 error code.

> the crank angle
> sensor wires are directly connected to the ECU. The two wire from the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> igniter. there is a single blue wire going between the igniter and the
> primery coil which Idon’t know what it should mesure.

There are two connectors at the igniter besides the white one to the ECU.
Unplug them. Both should have battery voltage with the ignition ON.

You need to be 100% certain that that the ignition switch and battery feeds
to the igniter, and the white wire to the ECU, are sound all the way. Since
you live in Britain, the probability of corrosion somewhewre is very high.

I don't see that you've actually done anything with the igniter itself,
though. Have a read through this page, from a countryman of yours:
http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
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Michael Pardee - 26 May 2005 13:39 GMT

> <x-posted to the other Honda group>
>
> Somebody from there may know what the ECU uses for ignition dwell.
>
> (Note to non-British readers: The Sterling 827 is basically an Accord with
> a 2.7L engine.)

I'm just guessing - the ECU likely calculates dwell based on rpm. Old
Kettering ignitions used fixed dwell angle, which meant proportionately
shorter dwell time at higher rpm. There was some hand-wringing about that in
the 60s and 70s. I would expect the ECU to start charging the coil at a time
based on how long since the last firing time and the rpm. But that's a guess
after all. I do know that at start-up the dwell is surprisingly long - if
you look at the ignitor output on the scope it looks like the low (on) time
is about half or more of the high (off) time.

Mike

Mike

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Sterling - 27 May 2005 04:36 GMT

> The code 15 error is gone. I check for good ground path and
> check the resistance of the spark plug wire set, they are all
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> for the ignition. The only thing Ihave not changed is the
> crank angle sensor. what do youthink? thanks

Here is what found out so far.

1 – The two wire from distributor is connected directly to the ECU
with good continuity and no short

2 – There is GND and +12 voltage present to the igniter and the coil
primary.
3 – There is good continuity between the ECU and the igniter via the
blu/red wire
4 – The crank angle sensor is directly connected to the ECU. I don’t
know how to test this one.
5 - There is good continuity on the single blue wire from coil primary
to the igniter. I don’t know what is the reason for this wire.

So I am guessing that the distributor sends a signal to ECU and the
ECU looks at both signal from the crank angel sensor and the
distributor before it can decide to send a signal to igniter via the
red/blu wire and if everything is well then the igniter releases the
signal via that single blue were to the primary coil. Am I even
close in my understanding of this circuit?

This cover all the wiring in the ignition circuit which includes,
distributor, ECU, Igniter, coil, crank angle sensor,. So what am I
missing? After disconnecting the battery the code 15 error
disappeared and did not come back, it would show up only if I
disconnect the igniter 4P connector. Someone suggested to use a NOID
light to check for Injector pulse. I am still dead in the water.
Thanks for your help.

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TeGGeR® - 28 May 2005 06:09 GMT

> Here is what found out so far.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 4 – The crank angle sensor is directly connected to the ECU. I don’t
> know how to test this one.

Unplug the 8-pin round connector from the distributor. According to my
manual, there are six pins arranged in a 2x3 grid. The two middle ones are
for the CYL/TDC/CRANK sensors. There ought to be 350 to 700 ohms between
those two wires. Also check that there is continuity to ground at each of
the two individually.

> 5 - There is good continuity on the single blue wire from coil primary
> to the igniter. I don’t know what is the reason for this wire.

Which side of the primary? If the plus side, that's the trigger (old SW
terminal for Kettering points). If the negative, that's the side that
carries the coil charging current.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/igniter-operation/howworks.html

> So I am guessing that the distributor sends a signal to ECU and the
> ECU looks at both signal from the crank angel sensor and the
> distributor before it can decide to send a signal to igniter via the
> red/blu wire and if everything is well then the igniter releases the
> signal via that single blue were to the primary coil. Am I even
> close in my understanding of this circuit?

All the ECU does is ground the igniter's white wire. Nothing else. What
inputs it uses to determine when--and for how long--to ground that white
wire, that's up for some debate.

Take a look at this new page. Maybe it'll help.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#badigniter

Maybe look at these too:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#badcoil
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/badsecondary/index.html

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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Sterling - 06 Jun 2005 10:35 GMT

> > Here is what found out so far.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#badcoil
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/badsecondary/index.html

In the Sterling 827 SL , connector to the distributor has only two
wire and they are conneted to the ECU. So what would be my next thing
to check. If I remove the distributer from engine block with ignition
on if I turn the rotor by hand, it sparks repeatedly. So why when the
engine is turning the rotor there is only one spark?

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TeGGeR® - 07 Jun 2005 03:06 GMT

> In the Sterling 827 SL , connector to the distributor has only two
> wire and they are conneted to the ECU. So what would be my next thing
> to check. If I remove the distributer from engine block with ignition
> on if I turn the rotor by hand, it sparks repeatedly. So why when the
> engine is turning the rotor there is only one spark?

Does the igniter ground through the distributor body? I think it does. I
wonder if you've got some kind of short going on there.

Your latest report suggests a bad wire or connector somewhere, which was my
original suspicion.

I think when you remove the distributor, you remove the igniter body
ground. Since the coil still generates a spark, that suggests the igniter
is still finding ground, and as far as I've been given to understand,
should NOT ground if the distributor is removed, and you should therefore
see NO spark since the igniter cannot switch.

I'm out of ideas, except to say that I think you really need to confirm the
integrity of all LT wires and connectors in the circuit.

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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