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Car Forum / Acura Cars / April 200799 GSR Flooding
when first turning the key on, the check engine light goes out after 2 seconds but the fuel pump keeps running.the throttle body and cylinders end up with raw gas in them.if you do try to start the engine it would turn over but not fire and then stops turning over until you remove spark plugs and hear pressure coming out of cylinders > when first turning the key on, the check engine light goes out after 2 > seconds but the fuel pump keeps running.the throttle body and cylinders > end up with raw gas in them.if you do try to start the engine it would > turn over but not fire and then stops turning over until you remove spark > plugs and hear pressure coming out of cylinders Wow. My '92 Teg floods sometimes, usually when I accidentally hit the gas as I turn the key, & when it does flood, I have to wait at least 60-90 seconds till it'll stay on. I've never done all that removing the spark plugs & all, though. > when first turning the key on, the check engine light goes out after 2 > seconds but the fuel pump keeps running. You're SURE about this? Do you hear ALL THREE CLICKS from the Main Relay? * Turn ignition to ON (but not to START): Click 1 * Check Engine light goes off: Click 2 * You now turn the key to START: Click 3 > the throttle body and cylinders > end up with raw gas in them.if you do try to start the engine it would > turn over but not fire and then stops turning over until you remove spark > plugs and hear pressure coming out of cylinders Are you certain you have spark at the plugs?  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ i'm not sure on the 3 clicks as i've not been able to find the main relay yet but am sure of the check engine light going off and still hear the fuel pump running until i turn the key off > i'm not sure on the 3 clicks Then get sure of it. Without that info, you're stumbling around in the dark. > as i've not been able to find the main relay > yet It's on the right-hand side of the car, above the kick panel, behind the glove box. > but am sure of the check engine light going off and still hear the > fuel pump running until i turn the key off Then Terminal 8 is being permanently grounded. ANY modifications of ANY kind to the car's electrical system? Radio? Remote start? Alarm? SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> as i've not been able to find the main relay >> yet > > It's on the right-hand side of the car, above the kick panel, behind the > glove box. On my 94 GSR,it was on the drivers side. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net found the main relay on the drivers side above the kick panel. only getting the one click when key is turned on.traced the wire from terminal 8 back to the epu.when i touch the cut ends together i can hear the relay pick and fuel pump turn on, remove them and alls quiet. could a bad crank position sensor be causing this or a bad epu? > found the main relay on the drivers side above the kick panel. only > getting the one click when key is turned on. Which click do you hear? What does the Check Engine light do? Does it turn on with the first click, then go off with the second? Does it never go off? Does it never come on? > traced the wire from > terminal 8 back to the epu.when i touch the cut ends together "Cut ends"? Uh-oh. Bad. Why is the wire "cut"? > i can > hear the relay pick and fuel pump turn on, remove them and alls quiet. > could a bad crank position sensor be causing this or a bad epu? Most likely neither of those, but you MUST note and report the EXACT click you hear, plus the PRECISE operation of the Check Engine light. These are critically important. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Which click do you hear? only the first one What does the Check Engine light do? Does it turn on with the first click, then go off with the second? Does it never go off? Does it never come on? yes it turns on with the first click,then goes out after two seconds but no click is heard then and the fuel pump stays running. Cut ends"? Uh-oh. Bad. Why is the wire "cut"? i cut the wire myself to see if the fuel pump would stop running or not.it did stop and also of course could hear the click from the relay dropping. i can > hear the relay pick and fuel pump turn on, remove them and alls quiet. > could a bad crank position sensor be causing this or a bad epu? Most likely neither of those, but you MUST note and report the EXACT click you hear, plus the PRECISE operation of the Check Engine light. These are critically important. something is keeping terminal 8 grounded thru the epu. what can cause that???? >> Which click do you hear? > > only the first one So then you hear only the click that occurs as the Check Engine light first comes on? >> What does the Check Engine light do? Does it turn on with the first >> click, then go off with the second? Does it never go off? Does it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> Cut ends"? Uh-oh. Bad. Why is the wire "cut"? > i cut the wire myself to see if the fuel pump would stop running or > not.it did stop and also of course could hear the click from the relay > dropping. If you could hear the second click when cutting the Terminal 8 wire, the second relay is popping open as it should when Terminal 8 is ungrounded. > something is keeping terminal 8 grounded thru the epu. what can cause > that???? > Since the fuel pump stops when the ignition is turned to OFF, it sure sounds like your ECM is defective. I've never personally heard of a bad ECM that still operated the Check Engine light properly and stored no error codes, but stranger things have happened. What I don't get is why you're flooding, unless you have some serious injector leakage. It should not matter to the engine whether the pump continues to run or not when the injectors are not firing. Excess fuel would simply be routed back to the tank. Has the car ever been in a flood, or had its windows left open in a rainstorm? Any aftermarket accessories? Alarm, remote start, stereo, that sort of thing? SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > found the main relay on the drivers side above the kick panel. only > getting the one click when key is turned on.traced the wire from > terminal 8 back to the epu.when i touch the cut ends together i can > hear the relay pick and fuel pump turn on, remove them and alls quiet. > could a bad crank position sensor be causing this or a bad epu? well,you could eliminate the relay as a problem by pulling it and resoldering the PCB inside it. Take about 1/2 hr. I sure would not be cutting any wires. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in news:Xns9905BC0564D27jyanikkuanet@ 64.209.0.85: >> found the main relay on the drivers side above the kick panel. only >> getting the one click when key is turned on.traced the wire from [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > well,you could eliminate the relay as a problem by pulling it and > resoldering the PCB inside it. Take about 1/2 hr. Yes, you are 100% correct. I should have mentioned this myself. As I always say, check the SIMPLE, CHEAP stuff FIRST. > I sure would not be cutting any wires. Damn straight. Cutting wires on the factory loom is a bad idea. If you need to cut current, remove the crimp connector from its block instead. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in > news:Xns9905BC0564D27jyanikkuanet@ 64.209.0.85: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > As I always say, check the SIMPLE, CHEAP stuff FIRST. I just thought of something. bill1618 needs to make sure the Main Relay and its connector are not corroded. If Terminal 8 is allowed to short to ground or short to Terminal 2, the pump will run constantly at KO. Another check for bill1618: with the key turned to II (on), check for voltage at the injector connectors. One wire should be hot all the time, but the othet should have current ONLY when the engine is turning. If there is current at that wire when te engine is NOT turning, then either MR Terminal 3 is shorting out, or the ECM is bad. Are there any error codes stored in the ECM? SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in >> news:Xns9905BC0564D27jyanikkuanet@ 64.209.0.85: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Are there any error codes stored in the ECM? Some thoughts of mine; do you really think the fuel pump can force fuel past good injectors by running full time? Seems that the FP is supposed to run all the time anyways(when the motor is running),as I don't believe there is any fuel pressure sensor to shut off the pump when desired pressure is reached. IMO,it would just burn up the FP if it were running with the motor off,and you would hear the whine of the pump with motor off. If the engine is flooding,then the injectors are either leaking or turned on by the ECU. IIRC,the owner said the engine runs properly after it does get started,so that says the ECU and crank sensor are OK. What do you think? SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > Some thoughts of mine; > > do you really think the fuel pump can force fuel past good injectors > by running full time? No. that's why I said I thought it odd that he'd be flooding just because the pump was running. Excess fuel should return directly to the tank regardless. > Seems that the FP is supposed to run all the time anyways(when the > motor is running),as I don't believe there is any fuel pressure sensor > to shut off the pump when desired pressure is reached. I don't think there is. However, with lack of manifold vacuum, pressure would be a bit higher than normal. But whether it would be high enough to pop the injectors open (a la Bosch K-Jetronic) I can't say. > IMO,it would just burn up the FP if it were running with the motor > off,and you would hear the whine of the pump with motor off. Turning the pump off is more of a safety issue than anything else. > If the engine is flooding,then the injectors are either leaking or > turned on by the ECU. That's my hunch now. Problem is, you never know with used cars. What sort of butchery has been committed to the harness? > IIRC,the owner said the engine runs properly after it does get > started,so that says the ECU and crank sensor are OK. > > What do you think? He says it never does get going. His very first message says he has to remove the plugs, whereupon he hears "pressure" being released from the cylinders. I'm not sure what to make of this assertion. Unless he just means he's hearing compression being released from the cylinder that's on its compression stroke. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ He says it never does get going. His very first message says he has to remove the plugs, whereupon he hears "pressure" being released from the cylinders. I'm not sure what to make of this assertion. Unless he just means he's hearing compression being released from the cylinder that's on its compression stroke. yes the car never starts.actually it would not even turn over until i removed the spark plugs and as i did you could hear pressure in the cylinder release. in the cylinders then was gas.so i'm assuming that when the gas dumped in and the piston was on the up stroke that the pressure built enough to keep the car from even turning over. so i'm thinking now that the fuel pump stays running and the injectors are open also. at the point it won't turn over any more the gas is also running out of the throttle body. > the injectors are open also. at the > point it won't turn over any more the gas is also running out of the > throttle body. When key is on but engine is not cranking, check for voltage at BOTH injector wires. One ought to be dead. If both are hot, the ECM is turning on the injectors inappropriately. Also check for pulse or steady voltage. If you get pulse only while cranking, the ECM is activating the injectors properly. If you get steady voltage at any time, the ECM is powering the injectors all the time, which is wrong. With more info, now I know why you asked about the bad crank angle sensor. You're thinking if the ECM thinks the engine's turning, it will activate the injectors. I'm not sure this is possible. What you're describing here appears to be injectors that are spraying all the time. I'm thinking you've got a bad ECM. I suggest you remove the ECM from the passenger kick panel and study it and its connectors for corrosion. Finally, if you've really got gas dripping out of the throttle body, that's _very_ dangerous, both to the engine and to yourself. You may have even bent a rod from hydraulic lock by this point. You'd better find a way to get rid of that gas. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> the injectors are open also. at the >> point it won't turn over any more the gas is also running out of the >> throttle body. > > When key is on but engine is not cranking, And when the Check Engine light is OFF. > check for voltage at BOTH > injector wires. One ought to be dead. If both are hot, the ECM is > turning on the injectors inappropriately. This is poorly written. Allow me to clarify: 1) Key must be to "II", but Check Engine light must be off. 2) Injector connectors are left connected, meaning you need to backprobe. 3) You need to individually short both wires to ground momentarily to see which one is live all the time. 4) If BOTH wires are "live" ALL the time, you've found your problem; discontinue test. If one wire is dead, then continue with test. All the ECM does is provide ground to the injectors, so if you short the "dead" wire to ground, you will see voltage, which will be misleading. To check for the presence of voltage, or of pulse, you need to use a high- impedance voltmeter to check between the always-hot wire and the one that is supposed to be "dead". Your VOM is then connected in parallel with the circuit. That way, if and when the ECM grounds the dead wire, you will see it too, without affecting the circuit yourself. Sorry about that. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ I just thought of something. bill1618 needs to make sure the Main Relay and its connector are not corroded. i checked the relay with an ohmmeter and found no shorts on either relay or socket. If Terminal 8 is allowed to short to ground or short to Terminal 2, the pump will run constantly at KO. that was why i cut the wire going to ecm to see if it was sorted elsewhere Are there any error codes stored in the ECM? no error codes at all |
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