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Car Forum / Acura Cars / January 2008Timing belt Time belt
I am surprised by the Timing belt business, all Honda cars, including Acura, need timing belt replacement near 80,000 miles, I am wondering why the ^%$# manufacturers don't want to make the belt with better material that lasts for life time of the car. Another puzzle bothers me is that in my younger days with old American made cars, there is no such thing as timing belt, we called timing chain, and the chain lasted for life time of the car. (surely there are few occasions that the timing chain failed, but I am sure there is no maintenance requirement for replacing timing chain every nnnnnn miles). > I am surprised by the Timing belt business, all Honda cars, including > Acura, need timing belt replacement near 80,000 miles, I am wondering [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > few occasions that the timing chain failed, but I am sure there is no > maintenance requirement for replacing timing chain every nnnnnn miles). --------------------- What's your question? 'Curly' motsco_ 提到: >> I am surprised by the Timing belt business, all Honda cars, including >> Acura, need timing belt replacement near 80,000 miles, I am wondering [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > 'Curly' why can not fabricate the timing belt with better material that lasts for life time of the car? >motsco_ ????: >> ?j?~???? wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >why can not fabricate the timing belt with better material that lasts >for life time of the car? The belts are made with high quality rubber and Kevlar. What material do you think would work better? >>why can not fabricate the timing belt with better material that lasts >>for life time of the car? > >The belts are made with high quality rubber and Kevlar. What material >do you think would work better? How about numerous short metal pieces, joined together with flexible links? You could even make the metal pieces with an opening in them, so that a toothed metal wheel of some sort could engage the openings and turn or be turned by a loop or belt made of such joined links. I'll bet something like that would last longer than ones made of rubber and Kevlar.  SignatureDan. >>>why can not fabricate the timing belt with better material that lasts >>>for life time of the car? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'll bet something like that would last longer than ones made of > rubber and Kevlar. You could even give such a contraption a fancy new name, like "chain" for example. In fact, that's exactly what many of the newest Hondas have... SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >You could even give such a contraption a fancy new name, like "chain" for >example. Damn. Can't a man even fish in peace these days? SignatureDan. >>You could even give such a contraption a fancy new name, like "chain" >>for example. > > Damn. Can't a man even fish in peace these days? I hear dynamite is an effective fishing tool. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>why can not fabricate the timing belt with better material that lasts >>>for life time of the car? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I'll bet something like that would last longer than ones made of >rubber and Kevlar. The original Saturns used such a system with disastrous results. Not that it can't be made to work, but as is often the case, the engineering details trump the generalities of the solution. >>>why can not fabricate the timing belt with better material that lasts >>>for life time of the car? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I'll bet something like that would last longer than ones made of >rubber and Kevlar. Posted yesterday in the Saturn Newsgroup: Had it [2002 Saturn] towed in to the saturn dealer. They confirmed the broken chain diag. They proceeded to further inspect the upper end for valve damage and found 4 bent valves. They then proceeded to install a remanufactured head and new timing chain. They called me today to tell me they got it running, and were test driving it when one of the valves in the newly remanufactured head 'fell in' and proceeded to destroy the entire engine. SATURN (not my third party agreement) is now paying to install a new complete engine assembly. They'll call when it's done. I guess those metal links aren't all that great after all. <SNIP> They called me today to tell me they got it running, and were test driving it when one of the valves in the newly remanufactured > head 'fell in' and proceeded to destroy the entire engine. SATURN (not my third party agreement) is now paying to install a new complete engine > assembly. They'll call when it's done. ------------------ I had a really old volvo 122a and the 'keepers' on the top end of a valve / valve spring popped off while I was climbing a hill. Before I could shut it down the valve fell into the cylinder and went down and then back up. It didn't hit its hole in the guide properly and forced out the guide right through the steel valve cover. That was a funny sight ! I was three hours from home so I called my employer and got them to tell the Volvo shop to put a valve and a guide on the bus. I got a room and convinced the mechanic that I'd borrow a few of his tools and I pulled the head. Parts arrived and I put the head in a cardboard box and hitch hiked to the next town where a shop had a proper press and the needed skills. I drove that vehicle for a few more years. 'Curly' "Gordon McGrew" <gmcgrew@mindspring.com> wrote in message: > The belts are made with high quality rubber and Kevlar. What material > do you think would work better? It must be good stuff. We have 273K miles on our 98 Accord EXV6 and never changed the timing belt. My father has just under 180K on his 00 Acura TL. He went through one tranny already, but ALL of the belts have held up just fine. I believe these belts are made to last the life of the vehicle. Has anyone else actually had one break? > "Gordon McGrew" <gmcgrew@mindspring.com> wrote in message: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I believe these belts are made to last the life of the vehicle. Has > anyone else actually had one break? X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X "Grain of salt" warning. . . 'Curly' "motsco_" <motsco_@interbaun.com> wrote in message: >> "Gordon McGrew" <gmcgrew@mindspring.com> wrote in message: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > 'Curly' What does this mean? Could you elaborate? james >>> I believe these belts are made to last the life of the vehicle. Has >>> anyone else actually had one break? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > james --------------------------- The manual says you'll damage a Honda engine if you don't change the timing belt. You said you don't think it ever needs to be changed. I say your advice should be taken with a 'grain of salt'... 'Curly' "motsco_" <motsco_@interbaun.com> wrote in message: >>>> I believe these belts are made to last the life of the vehicle. Has >>>> anyone else actually had one break? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > 'Curly' "The manual says..." But what do you say based on your experience? If my engine is damaged, how can I tell? It runs just fine. Can you explain what happens inside an engine that never has had a belt change? I don't believe the manual, because my vehicle is proof that these belts (and my engine) will last for many miles. james > "motsco_" <motsco_@interbaun.com> wrote in message: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > james --------------------------- I know the engineers at Honda / Acura aren't dummies. I've blown timing belts on a couple of Dodge products without damage, but they weren't INTERFERENCE engines. Read through this page to understand the difference: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/engines.html#interference You'll understand why the engine dies the same day the belt does. It's not called _catastrophic failure_ for no reason. :-( 'Curly' "motsco_" <motsco_@interbaun.com> wrote in message: > I know the engineers at Honda / Acura aren't dummies. I've blown timing > belts on a couple of Dodge products without damage, but they weren't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 'Curly' I don't believe they are dummies either Curly, that's why I buy Hondas. My problem is with greed ($$$): "GREED n. - An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth" Are you catching on yet? ;o) james I hit the trigger without elaborating. Sorry about that. GREED: 1. Design an interference engine so that it costs the customer more for repairs. If Dodge can design a non-interference engine, why didn't Honda? Is it so hard to machine a piston's top so that it doesn't collide with the valves? 2. Why use a rubber belt that could break and ruin your engine? Why not use a chain? I'll tell you why. Because it costs me more for repairs. But that's the name of the game, right? Isn't business all about making money? james >I hit the trigger without elaborating. Sorry about that. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >it so hard to machine a piston's top so that it doesn't collide with the >valves? Efficiency and Emissions. >2. Why use a rubber belt that could break and ruin your engine? Why not use >a chain? I'll tell you why. Because it costs me more for repairs. The length of loop and quietness are probably the two main reasons >But that's the name of the game, right? > >Isn't business all about making money? And building a reliable quality product. >james "NoMoreRGS" <NoMoreRGS@SGReroMoN.com> wrote in message: >>1. Design an interference engine so that it costs the customer more for >>repairs. If Dodge can design a non-interference engine, why didn't Honda? >>Is >>it so hard to machine a piston's top so that it doesn't collide with the >>valves? > Efficiency and Emissions. So what you're saying is that those engines that are non-interference are not efficient and have greater emmission problems? I'm not an engineer, but designing for efficiency and emmissions must be more important that designing an engine that doesn't self destruct when the timing belt breaks. And if timing belts break as often as "motsco_" claims, there should be a lot of angry people switching to a non-interference auto manufacturer. Sorry, but I find your statement hard to believe. >>2. Why use a rubber belt that could break and ruin your engine? Why not >>use >>a chain? I'll tell you why. Because it costs me more for repairs. > The length of loop and quietness are probably the two main reasons Cars have used chains for years. Even the new Hondas use chains. >>But that's the name of the game, right? >> >>Isn't business all about making money? > And building a reliable quality product. A quality product that gets destroyed when the belt breaks....when they could have just used a chain? Doesn't sound like quality, does it...? So it's back to the bottom line, $greed$... > "NoMoreRGS" <NoMore...@SGReroMoN.com> wrote in message: > >>1. Design an interference engine so that it costs the customer more for [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > So it's back to the bottom line, $greed$... I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice groved pistons. I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince engine well BS i got one right here! My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC and it was a non-interferince engine as well. <jjpylp@gmail.com> wrote in message : > So it's back to the bottom line, $greed$... I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice groved pistons. I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince engine well BS i got one right here! My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC and it was a non-interferince engine as well. Sounds to me like some of the so called Honda experts, aren't. Or they are lying. Hmmm... Using scare tactics...??? Well, it worked on me. I finally did have mine replaced. > I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice > groved pistons. > I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince > engine well BS i got one right here! > My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC > and it was a non-interferince engine as well. -------------------- The grooves in the tops of the pistons (that look like the dents your valves would make) are not proof that you're looking at a non-interference engine. They allow some of the valves to still be opening (or closing) while the piston is at TDC. Keep in mind there are three other strokes, not just the combustion one. 'Curly' > jjp...@gmail.com wrote: > > I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > 'Curly' Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine? If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke? C I have a 1987 Acura Integra my timing belt broke. I called every Honda "Mechanic" I could think of they all said get another car that ones trash and guess what they all had one for sale!! So I bought one 3 weeks later im changing a F@#$% head gasket. Yeah I agree with the guy that says its all GREED!!! So im just gonna replace the belt and water pump and finish driving that rusty p.o.s. into the ground!!!!! Here is a link to a photo of my 1991 Civic engine block. I would never assume that these groves were made by the valves hitting the pistons. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjpylp/sets/72157603769870713/ >> jjp...@gmail.com wrote: >>> I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine? > If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke? ----------------- I didn't say they can't hit. I only said there's room for the valves to open or close early / late without hitting the top of the piston. This should convince you that the timing of the cams is of great importance. If your timing belt is even a couple teeth out of time, you'll be buying and installing some new hardware. 'Curly' > jjp...@gmail.com wrote: > >> jjp...@gmail.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - So is this one (referring to the picture) a interference or non interference engine. I am confused no I thought that from (what I read earlier on the post) that the groves made it a non-interference engine? If the groves don't make it a non-interference engine what does? On Jan 21, 12:55 pm, jjp...@gmail.com wrote: > > jjp...@gmail.com wrote: > > >> jjp...@gmail.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Not gonna reply 'Curly'? I guess your right James it is $$GREED$$!! >> If the groves don't make it a non-interference engine what does?- Hide quoted text - -------------------------- Here's a similar definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_engine 'Curly' <jjpylp@gmail.com> wrote in message: >Not gonna reply 'Curly'? I guess your right James it is $$GREED$$!! Of course I am. :o) But first let me say that Honda builds a darn fine automobile. They are extremely reliable, and they have earned a reputation for consistent quality. But as long as making money is their primary goal (and we know it is), it is inevitable that there will be compromises. But there are some auto manufacturers whose primary goal is to milk the customer for as much of the green as they can. Especially by selling highly marked up replacement parts to replace their cheap original failed parts. And they sell them by the truckload because they engineer their vehicles to constantly require them. Now these companies are totally driven by greed. But they still sell their vehicles. Why? Because there are a vast number of patriots who always buy American products. But could American car companies build quality vehicles? Sure they could. But they don't. Why? Because using cheaper parts initially saves money, and means even larger profits down the road by selling replacement parts. One company that comes to mind is Chrysler corp. Man, this company is the worst in my opinion. FORD has become an acronym for many things of which most of us are familiar... Now there are those that may argue that it is the high cost of union labor that is forcing American car manufacturers to build self destructing automobiles. This certainly is believable. So for even more greed, factor in the UAW. Now back to timing belts. My personal experience shows that 105K miles is a bit too soon for a Honda. But consider the $1000 it typically costs to replace a timing belt/water pump/etc. And that more than 93% of that goes in the dealer's pocket. Well, let's just say that I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the guys who write the maintenance schedules get kickbacks from the auto dealers. Either that or it's Honda's way of saying "thank you" to the dealer..? Some people probably just accept it and say "better safe than sorry. After all, it's only a thousand bucks..." Yeah right, only a thousand. Question is, did it have to be that way? Or did Honda save some $greenbacks$ by designing a car for assembly rather than serviceability...? So let the customer pay for the difficult servicing...I mean, why should Honda. Makes sense to me, if your Honda. ;o) As for the interference type engine, if true, I'm not entirely sure of their motivations behind that one. But if I had to guess I'd say "It always been about money, and it always will..." -James > <jjp...@gmail.com> wrote in message: > >Not gonna reply 'Curly'? I guess your right James it is $$GREED$$!! [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > -James Don't get me wrong I love Hondas. I hate being lied to! Every Honda mechanic I talked to said scrap it not bring it in we can fix it. So I bought another Honda this time a civic from none other than a Honda mechanic! Well long story short within 3 weeks I was pulling the head to replace the head gasket. I was told that Hondas have no groves in the pistons for the valves to be out and the pistons to be up at the same time. Well I took the head off and wow groves in the pistons! On Jan 24, 3:06 pm, jjp...@gmail.com wrote: > > <jjp...@gmail.com> wrote in message: >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Short answer - The "grooves" in the pistons would have to be 10 or more mm deeper to ensure avoiding the valves if they were stuck at full lift, as might happen when a timing belt broke. If the "grooves" were deepened to provide enough clearance for rare emergencies like a busted timing belt, That would lower the compression, among other things. Race engines pistons are notched to provide minimal 2 to 3 mm piston- to-valve clearance during normal operation. If the cam timing is advanced or retarded as is sometime done for fine tuning, that clearance can be used up. http://www.iskycams.com/votc.php The piston is near the top of its stroke (TDC) for two different events. One is the end of the compression stroke, that is also the beginning of the power stroke, and the intake and exhaust valves are both closed long before and during that TDC. The other TDC is the end of the exhaust stroke (the exhaust valves are closing) and the beginning of the intake stroke (the intake valves are opening). At TDC None of the valves are anything near full lift, which happens about when the piston is at the middle of its stroke, 30 or more mm "down the hole." Here is an image of a Porsche 911 engine showing how close the valves and pistons are at TDC. http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_valve_adjust/911_valve_adjust_pic3.jpg Note The stock pistons are notched for valve clearance, but for running clearance, not to remove possible interference. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/mahleRSR1069134036.jpg And, nothing against Porsche, but the 911 was introduced ~ 1966. In the 80s it was still going thru a few timing chain tensioner design revisions to make their cam chains more reliable. Other manufacturers went thru long development to make chains last more than 100 kmiles. > On Jan 24, 3:06 pm, jjp...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thank You I get it now. Well crap Just change the damn thing when the book tells you too right. I will from now on!!! Thanks too everybody that put in there 2 cents every bit helps!!! >>> Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine? >>> If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > engine? > If the groves don't make it a non-interference engine what does? -------------------- I'm no expert on Honda engines. I think the definition of an interference engine is one that allows the valves and pistons to share the same 'space', but at different times. Break the belt and they share the space at the same time. I think some pre-'90's Honda engines are non-interference. I blew a TB on a Dog Caravan and didnt' wreck any valves (at least you couldn't tell the difference). It was _supposedly_ a Mitsubishi interference engine. Tegger (and many others) know more about it . . . 'Curly' > I believe these belts are made to last the life of the vehicle. Has > anyone else actually had one break? ------------------------------ Actually, they are made to last the life of the _engine_ Every month somebody tells us how the belt finally failed at _EXACTLY_ the same moment as the engine. There must be some strange metaphysical connection to the wording of the owner's manual. Here's a link to the HONDA owner's manuals: https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/RJAAI001_OMANUAL.asp 'Curly' "motsco_" <motsco_@interbaun.com> wrote in message : > Actually, they are made to last the life of the _engine_ > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > 'Curly' Our 98 Accord will turn over 300K miles probably before spring arrives in 08. I use Mobil One synthetic. I've run it in every car we've ever owned. Our last vehicle was a 92 Accord that we traded in for the 98, and it had 204K miles. Typically speaking, what is the "life of the _engine_" in a Honda product? I've never run one into the ground, but if our finances don't improve, we may run our 98 into the ground...or until the engine quits and the timing belt mysteriously breaks. ;o) Just curious, but what's the highest mileage anyone has ever put on a honda engine? james > "motsco_" <motsco_@interbaun.com> wrote in message : > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > james Probably well over a few million miles but not without major maintenance. Hey James, I just took out the original Honda timing belt on the Integra GSR at 93K miles and it looks brand new, and couldn't tell the difference from the new replacement belt. Just amazing! Looks like it could go for another 500K miles. Manual says change at 95K miles and sooner if the car was driven hard. My friend, the mechanic, said he doesn't bother to change the belt until its around 150K miles. I don't have that kind of faith, so every 95K miles it is. If the timing belt breaks, my GSR might as well be totaled as the engine will self destruct - goodbye pistons, valves, etc. I hear from other Honda owners that their belt broke at a little over 95K miles. BTW, wife's Volvo timing belt broke at 62K miles, manual said change every 60K miles. Fortunately the Volvo engine was non-interfering. "** Frank **" <noemall@xyz.net> wrote in message: > Probably well over a few million miles but not without major maintenance. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > BTW, wife's Volvo timing belt broke at 62K miles, manual said change every > 60K miles. Fortunately the Volvo engine was non-interfering. If what you say (95K) is truly typical, then it's a miracle that I've got 275K (as of today) on the original belt. Assuming your mechanic (at 150K) is more realistic, then I still fall in the miracle category. Now that you've offered me some doubt, mine will probably break. ;o) Though I find it interesting that there hasn't been more feedback on this issue. I was hoping too see more people with timing belt stories. Maybe everyone's out doing their xmas shopping... -james >If what you say (95K) is truly typical, then it's a miracle that I've got >275K (as of today) on the original belt. Assuming your mechanic (at 150K) is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Though I find it interesting that there hasn't been more feedback on this >issue. I was hoping too see more people with timing belt stories. A friend of mine knowingly neglected the recommended timing belt replacement on his car and paid the price. I saw the mess it made of the engine. I don't think there really are any timing belt stories, It either breaks or it doesn't. I replace timing belts at the recommended interval and I've never had one break. But what does that prove? I know that my timing belt is *way* less likely to break than yours is though. I recently bought an old BMW with 190K miles on it, and no service record. Would you care to guess what the first thing was that I did to the car? >"** Frank **" <noemall@xyz.net> wrote in message: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >-james Most people replace the belt at approximately the recommended interval and very few have a problem with the belt breaking. Many people push it well past the limit and they usually don't have a problem either. If the belt breaks, it's catastrophic but that very seldom happens. As a result, this isn't a big issue except when some one raises it as a hypothetical. Above applies to Hondas. Other makes may have different results. Some stories of timing chain problems indicate they are not perfect either. I remember back in the 70's there were stories of a timing chains slipping a tooth or two as they stretched a little. They would also break but usually only on very high mileage engines (100,000+). Most of the time back then engines were non-interference so they ran terribly if the chain slipped a tooth or just stopped running when the chain broke. Both with no internal damage. Obviously the chain and sprockets would be changed but sometimes the cover also. I don't remember hearing more damage than that though. >"** Frank **" <noemall@xyz.net> wrote in message: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >-james In the late '60's through the 1980's...Pontiac timing chains on their 326 and 421 engines went through a bad patch. If they were going to break or skip a tooth or two, usually happened between 45-50K miles. If they went much beyond then, they usually lasted until the engine was overhauled or the car junked. I never did hear what was happening, but always suspected a chain supplier might have had a quality problem. The original Audi Fox (1973) and Volkswagen Dasher/Rabbit all shared the same basic Porsche designed engine. The cam was driven by a toothed belt. The alternator had its own V-belt. To replace or tighten the alternator belt, you had to relax both a main support bolt and a bolt on a brace. You pulled the alternator over on the brace, using the bolt as a pivit, to get the correct tension and then retightened the brace bolt. Then the main attachment bolt. Many mechanics forgot to retighten the bolt and engine vibrations could let this bolt slowly back out till the bolt head interferred with the toothed belf running just in front of it. This either broke the belt or jumped the belt a few cam teeth and stopped the engine. It was a non-interference engine and the problem easily remedied with a new belt and properly torqueing down the bolt. I once had this happen on the way to a house closing in the dark and in my best suit. I coasted into the parking lot of a Montomery Wards, ran inside, bought a pair of cheap jeans and a sweat shirt, changed in the car and with my wife holding the flashlight, I was able to get the bolt back in and the damaged belt onto the cam with (by a minor miracle of good luck) hitting the correct timing the first try. We drove away 30 minutes later and made it to the closing on time. With me in a sweat shirt and jeans and my wife in a lovely dress. At least they let me get the oil and dirt off my hands before we started all the paperwork. Today, we don't hear of modern belts breaking (or hoses letting go) if they have been maintained by the book. Paul >Some stories of timing chain problems indicate they are not perfect >either. I remember back in the 70's there were stories of a timing [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >>-james Waiving the right to remain silent, motsco_ <motsco_@interbaun.com> said: > Ïj§~¾µñé wrote: >> I am surprised by the Timing belt business, all Honda cars, including [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > What's your question? Read the end of his first paragraph. SignatureLarry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail "A lack of common sense is now considered a disability, with all the privileges that this entails." > I am surprised by the Timing belt business, all Honda cars, including > Acura, need timing belt replacement near 80,000 miles, I am wondering > why the ^%$# manufacturers don't want to make the belt with better > material that lasts for life time of the car. I think that my Acura TSX has a timing chain, not a belt. "An automatically adjusted silent-type chain drives the cams; it is maintenance free and runs in an oil bath for maximum durability" |
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