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Car Forum / Alfa Romeo Cars / August 2004Servicing 156
The 36K service is due on my 2.0 156, and I have noted that there is some variance over the timing belt issue. The dealer (Caledonia in Preston), has given me a price of ?360 for the service, but told me that they only "check" the belt, as it is replaced at the 76K service. If I "wanted" to have the belt job done, that would be ?440 on top of the service. Question 1, therefore, is "should they be checking or changing the timing belt at the 36K service?" The car is still under warranty, so I would (naively?) thought that if there was a problem with the tensioners/belt/etc it would at least be partly covered? Question 2 is "if they need to replace the parts, should some or all of the cost be covered by the warranty?" Question 3 is "isn't (potentially) ?800 a lot of money to spend to service a two and a half year old car?" Question 4. This is the tough one. "How do I get "executive approval" (e.g. the wife) to swap it for a GT?" G > The 36K service is due on my 2.0 156, and I have noted that there is some > variance over the timing belt issue. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > G > Question 4. This is the tough one. "How do I get "executive approval" > (e.g. the wife) to swap it for a GT?" Choice of spend ?800 and keep the car (cos it will go out of warranty in 6 months and you can't take the risk with the belts). Spend a lot less and change it within 6 months Change it now! Hope this helps :) Tony <Snip> >Question 3 is "isn't (potentially) £800 a lot of money to spend to service a >two and a half year old car?" It is. However, it's not unusual with Alfas and Main Dealerships. My third year service at 25000 miles cost this and there was nothing unusually big in the work that was done (just stuff like bushes and handbrake cable etc). Trouble is that, with a normal service being more than 300UKP for me, any extra work quickly adds up to a very large sum. Next year, it'll get the A/C regassed (add another 100UKP) and I'd not be surprised if there's belts, more bushes or whatever. I'm saving up a scary 1000UKP just to cover this possibility. Before I bought it, research had shown me that the 156 was VERY expensive to run. Nobody put proper figures to it but, in my case, my car costs 0.10UKP per mile in maintenance costs ONLY. Frankly, it's a dire figure (it's more than my fuel cost) and it will determine whether my next car is an Alfa or not. Don't get me wrong, I love the car but I can get a better pleasure/cost ratio elsewhere.This is particularly so as the chances for having a fun drive in the UK diminish with the quality of the roads (rapidly scraping the bottom off my car), the dire state of British driving and speed cameras... <snip>  SignatureZ Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) Don't even begin to get me started on the police - sorry "revenue men" for that is what they have become. Car stolen? Sorry sir, nothing we can do! 33 in a 30? The FULL weight of the LAW (???) falls upon you. Respect for law and order evapoulated the minoute they embraced the camera. Aren't they a public service? Soon to be even more skint (despite how well everytbing is going???)_ g > <Snip> >>Question 3 is "isn't (potentially) ?800 a lot of money to spend to service [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > <snip> > <Snip> > >Question 3 is "isn't (potentially) £800 a lot of money to spend to service a > >two and a half year old car?" > > It is. However, it's not unusual with Alfas and Main Dealerships. It's not unusual for any prestiege brand to cost that much at 30 months. Try pricing up that kind of service on an Audi, Mercedes and BMW and you'll find out just how expensive it can be. SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> <Snip> >> >Question 3 is "isn't (potentially) £800 a lot of money to spend to service a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >It's not unusual for any prestiege brand to cost that much at 30 months. Ahem..it would have cost more than that at 11 months if Alfa hadn't picked up the bill for suspension work at 9000 miles. At 24 months it cost a mere 450UKP. This car EATS suspension bushes front and rear like they're made of putty. The biggest service bill for servicing my Vauxhalls (eek!) in 12 years (double eek!) of driving their top of the range models came to less than my smallest Alfa bill. Alfa have not made the 156 a low labour quick fix car. IME, cheapest VX service = 70UKP. Cheapest Alfa service 315UKP both from full dealerships within miles of each other. Even the simplest Alfa maintenance tasks are miserable (e.g. change a headlamp bulb with big hands?!). I need to jack up my car to change the oil..etc..etc. I asked one of the dealer mechanics (who was on a home visit recently to replace a leaky fuel filter) if anything was easy to fix on these. "NO" he replied. "Great engine though.." :-) SignatureZ Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) > >> <Snip> >Question 3 is "isn't (potentially) £800 a lot of money to spend > >> to service a >two and a half year old car?" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cost a mere 450UKP. This car EATS suspension bushes front and rear > like they're made of putty. Bushes are a once-only fix. Replace with poly bushes and they'll last a lifetime. And it's not only Alfa that suffer with this. Mondeos do, too. > The biggest service bill for servicing my Vauxhalls (eek!) Which part of 'prestiege' didn't you understand? > in 12 years > (double eek!) of driving their top of the range models came to less > than my smallest Alfa bill. Alfa have not made the 156 a low labour > quick fix car. IME, cheapest VX service = 70UKP. Cheapest Alfa service > 315UKP both from full dealerships within miles of each other. Vauxhall make cheap sh.t cars for numpties. They're mechanically very crude, hence the cheap servicing. Try looking at the cost of servicing an equivalent 3-series BMW. Let me tell you it's not cheap servicing a VANOS BMW 6-cylinder lump. > Even the simplest Alfa maintenance tasks are miserable (e.g. change a > headlamp bulb with big hands?!). I need to jack up my car to change > the oil..etc..etc. I asked one of the dealer mechanics (who was on a > home visit recently to replace a leaky fuel filter) if anything was > easy to fix on these. "NO" he replied. "Great engine though.." :-) Headlamp bulbs are increasingly difficult to change on lots of cars - it's not unknown for bumpers to have to be dropped to change stuff like that. What's so unusual about jacking up a car to change the oil? - that's standard procedure, is it not? SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # <Snip> >Bushes are a once-only fix. Replace with poly bushes and they'll last a >lifetime. And it's not only Alfa that suffer with this. Mondeos do, too. If it's that straightforward, why don't Alfa fit poly bushes? >> The biggest service bill for servicing my Vauxhalls (eek!) > >Which part of 'prestiege' didn't you understand? The 'e' before the 'g'! ;) I think 'prestige' is hyping the 156 a bit too far. How can a 156 that is bought new for the same money as a 2 litre Vectra be prestige? I don't consider low to medium spec BMWs as prestige motors either BTW. In my books prestige starts at about 35000UKP! YMMV. >> in 12 years >> (double eek!) of driving their top of the range models came to less [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Vauxhall make cheap sh.t cars for numpties. They're mechanically very >crude, hence the cheap servicing. I disagree. They're not that cheap when you factor in the depreciation from new. As for 'numpties', IME, there are vastly more people that think *I* am a numpty for buying an Alfa. I feel like a total numpty when I see the cost of the work done on a low mileage car. I always felt cleverer handing over 70UKP for a service than 800UKP. They're not all crude..the VX 220 and the development 1.9TT engine are quite interesting. The idea of a 1.9 diesel Vectra repmobile tagging along with a GTA on the motorway doesn't immediately suggest 'crudeness'.They also had a V6 with a higher output (similar power, much better torque) than the Alfa 2.5 about 3 years ago. IMO, crudeness has its place. >Try looking at the cost of servicing an equivalent 3-series BMW. Let me >tell you it's not cheap servicing a VANOS BMW 6-cylinder lump. Is that comparable to a 10V (manually adjusted tappets) JTD? In any case, I don't care for most over-rated German cars and am unimpressed when Alfas are compared to them either because it's avoiding the real issue. The REAL competition for quality, reliability, and sophistication comes out of Japan. My folks have had pretty fancy Hondas for years and they're not simple or crude. Strange how their wallet has never been emptied at service time..since 1990! Why didn't I get one then? I don't like the way they drive! >> Even the simplest Alfa maintenance tasks are miserable (e.g. change a >> headlamp bulb with big hands?!). I need to jack up my car to change [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it's not unknown for bumpers to have to be dropped to change stuff like >that. ..that doesn't make it a good thing though! >What's so unusual about jacking up a car to change the oil? - that's >standard procedure, is it not? I've never had to do it before. I've always managed (with scraped knuckles admittedly). SignatureZ Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) > <Snip> > >Bushes are a once-only fix. Replace with poly bushes and they'll last a > >lifetime. And it's not only Alfa that suffer with this. Mondeos do, too. > > If it's that straightforward, why don't Alfa fit poly bushes? Because most people wouldn't like the firmer ride. > > >> The biggest service bill for servicing my Vauxhalls (eek!) > > > >Which part of 'prestiege' didn't you understand? > > The 'e' before the 'g'! ;) Hmmmm. I need a spill chucker for this! > I think 'prestige' is hyping the 156 a bit > too far. How can a 156 that is bought new for the same money as a 2 > litre Vectra be prestige? Can they? - maybe an Alfa discount price is the same as a Vectra list price, but you're still comparing chalk with cheese. > I don't consider low to medium spec BMWs as > prestige motors either BTW. In my books prestige starts at about [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > They're not that cheap when you factor in the depreciation from new. No, but they're cheap to buy, and designed to be cheap to service, but they're utterly dull, lifeless horrible things. Especially the engines, totally characterless. > As for 'numpties', IME, there are vastly more people that think *I* am > a numpty for buying an Alfa. I feel like a total numpty when I see the > cost of the work done on a low mileage car. I always felt cleverer > handing over 70UKP for a service than 800UKP. I'd like to know what cars you've been driving when a 36k mile service will only cost £70! Something with a camchain, I'd assume. If you want a fancy engine with multiple valves, variable timing and the refinement of a cambelt, then you pay for it come service time. I'll stick with the 'classic' Alfa Twincam and it's camchain. > They're not all crude..the VX 220 and the development 1.9TT engine are > quite interesting. The idea of a 1.9 diesel Vectra repmobile tagging > along with a GTA on the motorway doesn't immediately suggest > 'crudeness'.They also had a V6 with a higher output (similar power, > much better torque) than the Alfa 2.5 about 3 years ago. IMO, > crudeness has its place. The 1.9TT is only there in concept at the moment, very unlikely it will actually happen, and if / when it does, no-one will spend that much cash on a Vectra anyway. The GM V6 isn't a great engine - similar power / torque, but lifeless. > >Try looking at the cost of servicing an equivalent 3-series BMW. Let me > >tell you it's not cheap servicing a VANOS BMW 6-cylinder lump. > > Is that comparable to a 10V (manually adjusted tappets) JTD? No idea, the JTD is diesel. > In any case, I don't care for most over-rated German cars and am > unimpressed when Alfas are compared to them either because it's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > how their wallet has never been emptied at service time..since 1990! > Why didn't I get one then? I don't like the way they drive! You either pay the price of a brand like Alfa because you like them, or buy a Honda Accord for cheap running costs. There's no happy medium, I'm afraid. > >> Even the simplest Alfa maintenance tasks are miserable (e.g. change a > >> headlamp bulb with big hands?!). I need to jack up my car to change [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I've never had to do it before. I've always managed (with scraped > knuckles admittedly). SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # <Snip> >I'd like to know what cars you've been driving when a 36k mile service >will only cost £70! Something with a camchain, I'd assume. I think you've got the wrong and of the stick here..my 800UKP service included NONE of the 36K mile stuff. That comes next time! My comparisons are 24K and under. >If you want a fancy engine with multiple valves, variable timing and the >refinement of a cambelt, then you pay for it come service time. The only thing my last shopping trolley VX didn't have from that list was the variable valve timing (unless you include the routine cambelt roller collapse followed by valves hitting pistons ploy!!!). Then again my JTD does not have a 'fancy' head..2 valves/cyl. >I'll stick with the 'classic' Alfa Twincam and it's camchain. I have no problem with your logic there! >> They're not all crude..the VX 220 and the development 1.9TT engine are >> quite interesting. The idea of a 1.9 diesel Vectra repmobile tagging [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >actually happen, and if / when it does, no-one will spend that much cash >on a Vectra anyway. ..that all depends on what VX actually deliver. The way diesel is going though, that engine (or similar) is only a matter of time. I wonder if the GM links to Fiat could result in twin sequential turbos going on the JTDs any time soon. It looks like a major performance step nonetheless. >The GM V6 isn't a great engine - similar power / torque, but lifeless. ..nope..that's not the engine I was thinking of. GM did a hotter version with a lot more torque (than the Alfa V6), not lifeless and with a good sound too. Trouble was..they put it in a Mk1 Vectra and nobody bought it so nobody noticed it. If you're really bored, look up posts from about 3 years back where (IIRC) I posted figures (I don't want to reopen that thread now though). <Snip> >You either pay the price of a brand like Alfa because you like them, or >buy a Honda Accord for cheap running costs. There's no happy medium, I'm >afraid. Ok but why are Alfas not as cheap as comparable Hondas to run? I would doubt Alfas are more sophisticated than Hondas. This is the question I can never get answered properly. <snip> SignatureZ Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) > <Snip> > >I'd like to know what cars you've been driving when a 36k mile service [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > included NONE of the 36K mile stuff. That comes next time! My > comparisons are 24K and under. In which case you need to change dealer. That's a stupid price for anything under 36k miles. > >If you want a fancy engine with multiple valves, variable timing and the > >refinement of a cambelt, then you pay for it come service time. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > roller collapse followed by valves hitting pistons ploy!!!). Then > again my JTD does not have a 'fancy' head..2 valves/cyl. See above. > >I'll stick with the 'classic' Alfa Twincam and it's camchain. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > posts from about 3 years back where (IIRC) I posted figures (I don't > want to reopen that thread now though). That'll be the MV6, then. Like I said, it's not a great engine. On paper it looks good, in reality it feels sh.t. In comparison with the Alfa V6, of course. > <Snip> > >You either pay the price of a brand like Alfa because you like them, or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > doubt Alfas are more sophisticated than Hondas. This is the question I > can never get answered properly. I think you'll find that an Alfa is considerably more 'engineered' than a Honda. The VTEC system is very basic compared with an Alfa variable timing system, I'd say it's even more basic than the system fitted on my ancient 75's engine. But it does seem that most of your woes are down to a dealer ripping you off! - I've never seen that kind of bill for any of my Alfas, even a full gearbox recondition was less than £500. SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # <snip> >> I think you've got the wrong and of the stick here..my 800UKP service >> included NONE of the 36K mile stuff. That comes next time! My >> comparisons are 24K and under. > >In which case you need to change dealer. What's wrong with my dealer? 300UKP is not unusual for a basic Alfa main dealer service. There was an extra 500UKP of work which was, largely, taken up by bushes and handbrake work identified by the MOT test. Previously, there was twice as much bush work done under warranty by Alfa before the car had done 10000 miles. I'm pretty sure Alfa wouldn't let a main dealer write blank cheques like that if the work was unnecessary would they? The main issue is the (widely noted) poor quality of the suspension on Alfa 156s from both a mechanical robustness POV and effectiveness POV (there's far too much vertical movement allowed for the ride height). >That's a stupid price for anything under 36k miles. That's my original point! It's happened 2 out of 3 times now so no flash-in-the-pan either! <Snip> >> ..nope..that's not the engine I was thinking of. GM did a hotter >> version with a lot more torque (than the Alfa V6), not lifeless and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >That'll be the MV6, then. Can't remember - possibly! <snip> >But it does seem that most of your woes are down to a dealer ripping you >off! - I've never seen that kind of bill for any of my Alfas, even a >full gearbox recondition was less than £500. Are we talking main dealership prices or backstreet specialist here? My dealer is a main dealer. The parts prices seem quite reasonable and they work to Alfa's 'Menu Pricing'. The problem is the labour rate which is not unusual for a main dealership. I'm unaware of any convenient specialist Alfa service in my area (Glasgow South West) and had a warranty to keep up. The choices now appear to be DIY (I've got other things to do) or expensive main dealer. I could sell and move on but I really like the car (except at service times!). SignatureZ Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) > The 36K service is due on my 2.0 156, and I have noted that there is some > variance over the timing belt issue. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Question 1, therefore, is "should they be checking or changing the timing > belt at the 36K service?" Ask them how they intend to "check" the cambelt. If they are only taking the cover off and looking at it, that will prove nothing as the teeth (hidden by the pulleys) could be about to fall off. If they take it off and examine it then they have already done all the work required to change it and you should NEVER refit an old cambelt. Get the job done properly, a cambelt failure could cost you ?2000 and a lot of inconvenience. Make sure they change the balance-shaft belt and the tensioners too (and maybe the variator as well.) -- David C 156 Selespeed sp3 + Brembo conversion Graeme, Its a gamble. You either pay the main dealer and hope that if you get a problem after the warranty expires, they will treat you sympathetically or you save some money upfront and use a local specialist. For a local Alfa specialist, try Ferdi in Lytham St Annes. He's technically absolutely brilliant and changed my 156 1.8 cambelt, pulleys, etc, all for just ?280 incl parts. A 2.0 would cost a bit more, as they have an extra balancer shaft. He could actually hear that the pully was just starting to wear but he told me that my variator was absolutely OK and not to waste a further ?80 replacing that..... There didn't used to be a formal service "check" on the belts and pulleys at all, until they were due for replacement at 72,000 miles, but some have started failing after 40-odd thousand miles, so this extra check at the 36,000 mile service was introduced. If the main dealer says its OK at 36,000 miles and then it fails before 72,000 miles, I suppose that you may have some comeback, but the car would be out of warranty anyway, so you're not on firm ground from a legal perspective.... I've heard hearsay that you pay for the labour for the "check" under the 36,000 mile service and then if the parts are failing, they get swapped under warranty at the time, but I don't know where you stand if you pay for the check at the service and they then fail afterwards. > The 36K service is due on my 2.0 156, and I have noted that there is some > variance over the timing belt issue. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > G |
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