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Car Forum / Alfa Romeo Cars / April 2005Anyone seen the May Issue of Auto Italia?
They have an article about the new 159 which describes the convoluted process that Alfa goes through to get "its" new 3.2 liter V-6 engines. It makes almost ZERO sense. First, complete Holden V-6s are shipped from Australia to the United States (?). Once in the USA, the engines are dismantled and the Holden bits (heads, crank, etc) are discarded. Then the blocks are repackaged with the Alfa bits (heads, cranks etc.) and re-shipped to the Alfa Pomigliano D'arco factory near Naples for final assembly and testing. This incredible saga is presented by the magazine without them even offering to explain: 1) Why? Why doesn't Alfa just purchase the block castings from Holden and have them shipped directly to Italy? Why use a foreign casting to begin with? 2) Is the Holden V-6 cast iron or cast aluminum? Since it's exactly the same displacement as the old Alfa V-6, why do they bother? 3) Won't having to buy complete engines from Holden and disassemble them in a third country make this a real expensive proposition? Why America where Alfas aren't even sold? Why are the Alfa heads and cranks packaged with the engines in the USA? Are they being made here? Is this a stop-gap arrangement or is it permanent? Finally, in my estimation, the heart of an Alfa IS it's engine. Without an Alfa engine in the car, it's not even an Alfa Romeo any more. RIP Alfa!  SignatureGeorge Graves ------------------ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination. I know those Italians have strange opinions about efficiency and productivity and logistics, but I refuse to believe this is the way it works in real (production) life. Maybe during the development?? I'm quite sure the engine cores will be shipped directly from Australia to Italy. But on the other hand, Alfa has always had their own engines, even though i.e. the 4 cyl TS engines have been developped from FIAT engines. Don't tell me that the latest 16V TS engines are not considerd "typical"Alfa engines. And, the JTS engines are developped in cooperation with an English engineering company (forgot their name) So, enough reasons to expect that Alfa have developped a real Alfa engine using components of the Holden/GM engine. And may be it helps, in the GM/FIAT engine co-makership the GM brands just put another plastic cover on the Alfa/FIAT JTD engines; they don't bother doing any engineering themselves. SignatureCiao from Holland AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) Rosso Radicofani GT 2.0JTS (2005) Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) > They have an article about the new 159 which describes the convoluted > process that Alfa goes through to get "its" new 3.2 liter V-6 engines. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > an Alfa engine in the car, it's not even an Alfa Romeo any more. RIP > Alfa! > I know those Italians have strange opinions about efficiency and > productivity and logistics, but I refuse to believe this is the way it works [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > put another plastic cover on the Alfa/FIAT JTD engines; they don't bother > doing any engineering themselves. What he said, really. From what I understand, and it's the same with the Fiat based lumps, Alfa just take the block, bolt on their own head and manifolds, instantly transforming a heap of junk GM engine into a proper Alfa engine. SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 Alfa 75 TSpark - Passat 1.8T - Golf Cabrio - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> I know those Italians have strange opinions about efficiency and >> productivity and logistics, but I refuse to believe this is the way it [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > instantly transforming a heap of junk GM engine into a proper Alfa > engine. I *like* that way of looking at it :) SignatureCatman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3 Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply) Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 155 TS Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk > > I know those Italians have strange opinions about efficiency and > > productivity and logistics, but I refuse to believe this is the way it works [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > instantly transforming a heap of junk GM engine into a proper Alfa > engine. I take exception to the word "proper" although otherwise it seem that way. The CURRENT V-6 IS a real Alfa engine, however, designed, originally, in the 1970's. They shared it with Lancia (but hell Ferrari has even shared engines with Lancia) at one point, but it is an Alfa lump. This Holden lump is embarrassing, really. SignatureGeorge Graves ------------------ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination. > > From what I understand, and it's the same with the Fiat based lumps, > > Alfa just take the block, bolt on their own head and manifolds, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > has even shared engines with Lancia) at one point, but it is an Alfa > lump. This Holden lump is embarrassing, really. Why - all they take is the block. Which is probably the least important part in terms of engine character, but the one which can cheaply be sourced from elsewhere. SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 Alfa 75 TSpark - Passat 1.8T - Golf Cabrio - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # > > > From what I understand, and it's the same with the Fiat based lumps, > > > Alfa just take the block, bolt on their own head and manifolds, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > part in terms of engine character, but the one which can cheaply be > sourced from elsewhere. I understand that. But Alfa has had their own foundry at Pratola Serra near Naples for decades. It is one of the most modern and efficient engine plants in Europe. Why do they not make their own goddamn blocks? SignatureGeorge Graves ------------------ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination. > I take exception to the word "proper" although otherwise it seem that > way. The CURRENT V-6 IS a real Alfa engine, however, designed, > originally, in the 1970's. They shared it with Lancia (but hell Ferrari > has even shared engines with Lancia) at one point, but it is an Alfa > lump. This Holden lump is embarrassing, really. It is hard to put into words quite how great an engine the Alfa V6 is. On paper it is nothing spectacular and it is relatively uneconomical. Such that modern turbo diesels of similar capacity are getting close on bhp and of course have more torque. I have both a 2.0TS (GTV) and a 2.5 V6 (156). The TS is a fine engine but the V6 is another level. Not just in power but in responsive and smoothness. Not smoothness in the anaethetised swooshing of some exec cars, but a real engine sound and feel along with a silky delivery. I recently did a lot of miles in a Renault 3.0 V6 and whilst performance was on a par the engine just felt very ordinary. At 4000 RPM it feels more than ready for another gear, the Alfa never feels strained right up to the 7000 rev limiter (which is remarkably easy to get to) and it doesn't feel like a normal engine but something a bit more special. A 2.5 V6 Omega I was a passenger in had the same very ordinary engine feel. Curiously my wife prefers driving her GTV because the V6 is too "free" and simply wants to rev too easily. The Boxer in my previous 33 and the V6 in my 156 meet my expectations for Italian engines. The TS feels a little bit strangled in comparison. Of course feel is a very subjective thing and there can be no right answers but the GM influence certainly concerns me too. Cheers Tony > > I take exception to the word "proper" although otherwise it seem that > > way. The CURRENT V-6 IS a real Alfa engine, however, designed, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Cheers > Tony I feel exactly the same way. My 3.0 Liter SOHC V-6 in my Alfetta GTV-6 is on paper, quite ordinary. The V-6 in many Japanese and even Korean cars look as if they would be better performers, but they are so bland as to be boring by comparison. Not so the Alfa V-6. Every time I start my car I get a tingle of excitement. And out on the road, I find myself rolling the windows down in tunnels and next to barrier walls just to hear the engine better. My 3.0 liter V-6 puts out about 230 HP with its 'S' cams, porting and relieving, and its remapped ECU from an ex-racing 75. My GTV-6 will do 0-60mph in about 5.8 seconds, and will pull it's 7200 rpm redline in 5th gear for a top speed of 159.5 mph!. The engine pulls endlessly with seemingly effortless power, it's extremely responsive and flexible and loves to run at the upper end of it's rage. It's the V-6 equivalent of the classic Ferrari V-12, and like that timeless 3.0 liter mill, we'll never see its likes again. We'll have to wait to see if Alfa has been able to transform the prosaic GM lump into something even approaching the glory of the original Alfa V-6. I don't want to prejudge anything, but I will be very surprised if the new V-6 anywhere near as good. SignatureGeorge Graves ------------------ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination. Just a remark at the phrase "lump". Although I get goose bumps from the fact that the new V6 is in it's origine a GM engine and the "old" Alfa V6 is generally considered being (one of) the best engines around we shouldn't forget that this GM/Holden V6 is the first real new engine that comes out of the GM/FIAT cooperation. So there may well be Alfa/Fiat/Italian influences in the design. This on top of the very positive respons from the automotive media and the fact that Alfa has put quite an effort in "Alfa-nizing" the engine does seem reason to be optimistic in "believing" Alfa has been able to turn this into a "real Alfa" engine agian. SignatureCiao from Holland AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) Rosso Radicofani GT 2.0JTS (2005) Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) >> > I take exception to the word "proper" although otherwise it seem that >> > way. The CURRENT V-6 IS a real Alfa engine, however, designed, [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > V-6. I don't want to prejudge anything, but I will be very surprised if > the new V-6 anywhere near as good. As you say chaps the Alfa V6 is the best V6 the world has ever known & to drop it for some other they must know what they are doing, my 156 V6 sounds & pulls through the gears like it has a life of its own, its important for Alfa to get it right because Alfa people will only buy the V6 if they are convinced it is the best V6 in the world or what is the point? Stuart > As you say chaps the Alfa V6 is the best V6 the world has ever known & > to drop it for some other they must know what they are doing, my 156 V6 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the point? > Stuart The Holden V6 is NOT the best V-6 in the world. First of all, it's an iron block which is going backwards, IMHO. Heavy, crude, and with the Alfa aluminum heads, bound to have electrolysis problems (like the old Jaguar XK engine). Not an Alfa without an Alfa engine. SignatureGeorge Graves ------------------ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination. > > As you say chaps the Alfa V6 is the best V6 the world has ever known & > > to drop it for some other they must know what they are doing, my 156 V6 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Alfa aluminum heads, bound to have electrolysis problems (like the old > Jaguar XK engine). Not an Alfa without an Alfa engine. There does seem to be a trend back towards cast iron blocks now, though. Isn't the existing V6 a cast iron block? - I know the 4-potters are. SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 Alfa 75 TSpark - Passat 1.8T - Golf Cabrio - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # If they fcuk this up i will be the first to cry because in 8 to 10 years when i can afford one, i might not bother & just run what will then be a classic V6 156 or GTV. NO BAD THING. Stuart > If they fcuk this up i will be the first to cry because in 8 to 10 > years when i can afford one, i might not bother & just run what will > then be a classic V6 156 or GTV. > NO BAD THING. > Stuart Look at us Americans. The newest Alfa that we can buy is at least 10 years old. SignatureGeorge Graves ------------------ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination. > > > As you say chaps the Alfa V6 is the best V6 the world has ever known & > > > to drop it for some other they must know what they are doing, my 156 V6 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Isn't the existing V6 a cast iron block? - I know the 4-potters are. No. The existing engine is an aluminum block. SignatureGeorge Graves ------------------ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination. >> Isn't the existing V6 a cast iron block? - I know the 4-potters are. > > No. The existing engine is an aluminum block. And the Alfa 4-potters are aluminium as well!! SignatureCiao from Holland AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan) Rosso Radicofani GT 2.0JTS (2005) Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4) > >> Isn't the existing V6 a cast iron block? - I know the 4-potters are. > > > > No. The existing engine is an aluminum block. > > And the Alfa 4-potters are aluminium as well!! The 16v TSpark as used in the widebody 155 onwards isn't. Only the 'classic' Alfa Twincam / Twinspark is. SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 Alfa 75 TSpark - Passat 1.8T - Golf Cabrio - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # |
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