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Car Forum / Alfa Romeo Cars / December 2005Brera - Top Gear road test
www.topgear.com/drives/A0/00/roadtests/01/01.html Pete  Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso >www.topgear.com/drives/A0/00/roadtests/01/01.html It surprises me that they say 'about £25k' is BMW 325i money. Around here 325i's cost about 45K euros, which is about £30K. Are BMW's so much cheaper in the UK? SignatureStephen Poley Barendrecht, Holland >325i BMW 3-Series Saloon 325i SE 4d 2005 GBP 25,137 Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso >>325i > BMW 3-Series Saloon > 325i SE 4d 2005 > GBP 25,137 > > Pete Ah yes, but you're forgetting the cost of BMW "extras" such as engine, wheels, clock, air con, radio, cd player, etc. etc.. Fizackerly - basic spec BMW's look crap. >Fizackerly - basic spec BMW's look crap. Personally I think the entire car looks offensive. It does not alter the original question of what is the UK list price of the car. I was not aware that anyone was suggesting purchasing one or I would have sent them off group to "another place". Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso >>Fizackerly - basic spec BMW's look crap. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Pete Ah no, I must take issue with you ..... I saw a Brera and a 159 at Goodwood Festival of Speed this year : whereas the 159 was "OK, but nothing special", the Brera was definitely "wow ! gorgeous looking ! must have one!". However, lack of funds have stopped me placing an order yet (I'm researching the possibility of auctioning wife and kids on ebay, but haven't found the appropriate section yet). Dave S 156 2.0 SP2 '98 :>)) >>>Fizackerly - basic spec BMW's look crap. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Dave S 156 2.0 SP2 '98 :>)) So what does that have to do with the BMW 325i looking crap and Alfa always producing a far more desirable looking car? Why do you think I own an Alfa? Poverty? Masochism? Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso > >>>Fizackerly - basic spec BMW's look crap. > >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Alfa always producing a far more desirable looking car? > Why do you think I own an Alfa? Poverty? Masochism? I was wondering what you meant as well. The way you worded it, it seemed as if you were saying that the Brera looked offensive. And if modern Alfas are anything like my Sophia (a black 1986 GTV-6 3.0 liter 12-valve with 'S' Cams and a modified ECU and after-market air intake system - Dyno'd at 206 BHP at the rear wheels) poverty and Alfa upkeep are NOT compatible concepts! SignatureGeorge Graves >>www.topgear.com/drives/A0/00/roadtests/01/01.html > >It surprises me that they say 'about £25k' is BMW 325i money. Around >here 325i's cost about 45K euros, which is about £30K. Are BMW's so much >cheaper in the UK? See what you started Stephen <ROF> Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso >>>www.topgear.com/drives/A0/00/roadtests/01/01.html >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >See what you started Stephen <ROF> Yes - and I thought it was such an innocent question. ;-) No-one seems to have commented on the test itself. The general impression seems to be that the Brera and 159 are extremely similar in all but the rear end of the body shell. I fancy a car with ESP though - one that slows down when it senses that the driver ahead is about to do something stupid. ;-) More seriously, I'm a bit confused about ESP and VDC. Are they the same thing, and what exactly do they do? Google reveals lots of mentions, but I failed to find a decent description. SignatureStephen Poley >>>>www.topgear.com/drives/A0/00/roadtests/01/01.html >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >impression seems to be that the Brera and 159 are extremely similar in >all but the rear end of the body shell. The reason for the OP was to hopefully generate comment on the test. Especially given the number of posts here in the pass about the desire to own the car when it became available. I thought it would be a good thread. >I fancy a car with ESP though - one that slows down when it senses that >the driver ahead is about to do something stupid. ;-) More seriously, >I'm a bit confused about ESP and VDC. Are they the same thing, and what >exactly do they do? Google reveals lots of mentions, but I failed to >find a decent description. They are basically the same animal. http://www.bosch-esperience.de/pdf/toyota_studie_en.pdf In the context of Alfa Romeo VDC = Dynamic Stability Control (driver switchable) An electronic Vehicle Stability Control system with 12 value control unit. Works with other systems to help manage the brakes. eg automatically increasing the braking pressure in emergency braking, allows the brake pressure to ease off gently as car begins to move off from a hill start etc., Not exactly the most detailed description that they could have written, but the best that I could find. Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso >>I fancy a car with ESP though - one that slows down when it senses that >>the driver ahead is about to do something stupid. ;-) More seriously, >>I'm a bit confused about ESP and VDC. Are they the same thing, and what >>exactly do they do? Google reveals lots of mentions, but I failed to >>find a decent description. > They are basically the same animal. > http://www.bosch-esperience.de/pdf/toyota_studie_en.pdf [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pete My understanding that in Alfa parlance ESP is traction control and is switchable whereas VDC manages the braking system to avoid sideways slip (prevent under or over steer in extreme conditions) and is not switchable. My 156 has VDC and it feels really weird when it takes over - on one occasion I came around a corner a tad fast and found a queue of traffic, the VDC kept alternating which wheels were braked and I wobbled to a safe stop. It felt like I was wiggling the steering wheel whilst the brake pedal was vibrating under my foot. I can see why people need to find out how to disable it for track use but it certainly stopped me quickly with no correction required on my part. I didn't like the feeling - as I was longer controlling the inputs to the car and I was not concerned it wouldn't pull up in time or slide, but the computer probably knew best... >My understanding that in Alfa parlance ESP is traction control and is >switchable whereas VDC manages the braking system to avoid sideways slip [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >not concerned it wouldn't pull up in time or slide, but the computer >probably knew best... Thanks Tony. That last part; > I didn't like the >feeling - as I was longer controlling the inputs to the car and I was >not concerned it wouldn't pull up in time or slide Should that be read no longer controlling and was concerned? I know that is always my fear of "these modern fangled things". I do not doubt that I will come around eventually. After all I manage to live with ABS, seatbelts, syncromesh gear boxes, & indicator lights :-) Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso > That last part; > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I do not doubt that I will come around eventually. After all I manage to > live with ABS, seatbelts, syncromesh gear boxes, & indicator lights :-) It meant I wasn't concerned before the VDC cut in that I wasn't going to stop or make the bend under braking. However, the computer took over and I felt something of a passenger as I wibbly wobbled to a stop. I didn't like the feel because I am a bit of a control freak but I couldn't fault the distance the car took to pull up without sliding. The main difference is the computer can do things any driver can't - like individually brake each wheel. So the result is a different feel to anything I have been in before as the car corrects its yawing motion many times in a couple of seconds and can defy the smoothness required to correct a car by driver inputs. Maybe it was the fact the computer lacks my conviction in my driving abilities that I didn't like :) Regarding your concern over the computer driving in two and a half years it has only cut in twice - both when having to brake hard mid bend. In even quite aggressive driving it has never noticeably been activated. I could see why you would want it turned off on a race track but for even very spirited road use I would say it is better to have it than not - just in case! Cheers Tony >>I fancy a car with ESP though - one that slows down when it senses that >>the driver ahead is about to do something stupid. ;-) More seriously, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >pressure to ease off gently as car begins to move off from a hill start >etc., Thanks for that. With a bit more hunting I came up with this pretty decent description of VDC (towards the bottom of the page, readable once one has overridden the stupid tiny text): http://www.italiancar.com.au/pilot/feature011.htm SignatureStephen Poley >Thanks for that. With a bit more hunting I came up with this pretty >decent description of VDC (towards the bottom of the page, readable once >one has overridden the stupid tiny text): > >http://www.italiancar.com.au/pilot/feature011.htm Must confess that looking through an Oz site about a Crosswagon would not have occurred to my Euro-centric brain. Found, copied and pasted into a textpad. Soo much easier to read in 10point courier :-) It even makes a good read now. Credit to the author. Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso >>Thanks for that. With a bit more hunting I came up with this pretty >>decent description of VDC (towards the bottom of the page, readable once [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >10point courier :-) It even makes a good read now. >Credit to the author. Try the Opera browser - switch off the site-author's styling at the touch of a key and miraculously (almost) all pages become readable. It's free now as well. SignatureStephen Poley >Try the Opera browser - switch off the site-author's styling at the >touch of a key and miraculously (almost) all pages become readable. It's >free now as well. It is on the Desktop. Right click seemed quicker ;-) Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:57:02 +0100, Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> selected combat throttle and flew into a dogfight with: >I fancy a car with ESP though - one that slows down when it senses that >the driver ahead is about to do something stupid. ;-) More seriously, You mean one that senses a speedtrap or *safety* camera ahead? >I'm a bit confused about ESP and VDC. Are they the same thing, and what >exactly do they do? Google reveals lots of mentions, but I failed to >find a decent description. They are the same thing. My 156 has VDC, but the gubbins on the bulkhead is marked ESP! VDC - vehicle dynamic control ESP - electronic stability program A friend with a Zafira got his ABS upgraded to ESP with a simple software upgrade at the dealers (cost a bit though). -- Max Reheat (:o) - deselect Part Throttle Reheat to reply. Alfa 156 2.0 JTS Selespeed Veloce Lancia Dedra 1.8i.e.SE Max Reheat <]###[= wrote: > They are the same thing. My 156 has VDC, but the gubbins on the > bulkhead is marked ESP! > > VDC - vehicle dynamic control > ESP - electronic stability program As I understand it my 156 has both. ESP is a button by the gear lever and switches off traction control. VDC is on at all times and works with the ABS system. Cheers Tony > Max Reheat <]###[= wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Cheers > Tony Ok so I was wrong :) - just looked and the button by the gear lever says ASR which is the traction control. Only had the car 30 months! >On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:57:02 +0100, Stephen Poley ><sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> selected combat throttle and flew [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >You mean one that senses a speedtrap or *safety* camera ahead? I was actually thinking more of the driver who slows down, moves over to the nearside kerb and then, without a glance in his mirrors (let alone use of indicator) suddenly pulls right across the road just in front of you. >>I'm a bit confused about ESP and VDC. Are they the same thing, and what >>exactly do they do? Google reveals lots of mentions, but I failed to >>find a decent description. > >They are the same thing. My 156 has VDC, but the gubbins on the >bulkhead is marked ESP! LOL. Sounds like another last-minute change of mind by the Marketing Manager! >VDC - vehicle dynamic control >ESP - electronic stability program > >A friend with a Zafira got his ABS upgraded to ESP with a simple >software upgrade at the dealers (cost a bit though). That's a bit weird. As I understand the page I quoted earlier, VDC requires a yaw detector. So what gives? - the Zafira's ESP isn't really ESP? - it was a hardware upgrade as well as software? - the Zafira comes with ESP fitted as standard but disabled? (and the dealer charges 500 pounds for work which cost him tenpence?) SignatureStephen Poley >- the Zafira comes with ESP fitted as standard but disabled? (and the >dealer charges 500 pounds for work which cost him tenpence?) They ain't built by AR you know <LOL> Pete Signature<iowna156@rustclubalfa.com> 156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso |
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