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Car Forum / Alfa Romeo Cars / December 2007Wibble
Someone pass the Kleenex: http://www.pistonheads.com/pics/news/17265/DucatiCorse_01_800-L.jpg http://www.pistonheads.com/pics/news/17265/DucatiCorse_02_800-L.jpg <grabs calculator and wonders if his 400 quid a month car allowance will buy one> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a storming performer, and I desperately want one.  SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # > Someone pass the Kleenex: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a > storming performer, and I desperately want one. Hmm, 170bhp? Storming? SignatureCatman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3 Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply) 116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 156 TS 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2 Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see. www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk > > Someone pass the Kleenex: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Hmm, 170bhp? Storming? You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you? SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a >>> storming performer, and I desperately want one. >>> >> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming? > > You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you? It is all relative though and 170bhp diesels have been powering Leons, Golfs and Audis for some time and now and aren't the most sporting versions of those cars. Punchy yes, storming? no :) Cheers Tony > >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a > >>> storming performer, and I desperately want one. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Punchy yes, storming? no :) Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress. Figures suggest a sub 8 second 0-60 time, which puts it in hot hatch territory. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >>>>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a >>>>> storming performer, and I desperately want one. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Figures suggest a sub 8 second 0-60 time, which puts it in hot hatch > territory. I guess we are into semantics over what defines "storming" but it is a second off my 200bhp A3 2.0T which isn't the sporting S3 version. I have been disappointed that Alfa never developed a true GTI, Cupra, S3 competitor with the 147 to slot between the 2.0TS/1.9JTD and the 3.2 GTA (which rivals the R32 and A3 3.2 etc.) My wife's 2.0TS could only ever be described as luke warm, not just in terms of paper figures but in terms of perception compared with old boxer engined small alfas, whereas the GTV 2.0TS felt much perkier. The 150bhp 1.9JTD 147 I drove as a courtesy car had even less sensation of urgency although the speedo indicated a good rate of progress. Alfas always used to feel quicker than the paper performance figures but I believe VAG have trumped them here. The Golf GTI even has an induction amplifier - an otherwise pointless tube from the manifold to the passenger compartment to heighten the aural sensation under heavy throttle. No matter how good the modern diesels are they lack the sensation of a "hot" variant as riding the flat torque band between 2-4k revs may make for rapid progress but just in the same effortless way as a large engined luxury car would, which just doesn't equate to petrol head satisfaction! Alfas development of diesels with minimal development of petrols has further disappointed me. I am being old fashioned I guess but small petrols was Alfas domain and they are seriously lagging behind. The Q2 is only available with diesel too currently as the petrols take second stage. Anyway enough of my ramblings it does look quite nice if not quite hot enough... Cheers Tony > Alfas development of diesels with minimal development of petrols has > further disappointed me. I am being old fashioned I guess but small > petrols was Alfas domain and they are seriously lagging behind. The Q2 > is only available with diesel too currently as the petrols take second > stage. Seems like Alfa are listening to me :) http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_149.shtml Cheers Tony > > Alfas development of diesels with minimal development of petrols has > > further disappointed me. I am being old fashioned I guess but small [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_149.shtml Good to see they've decided to ditch the over weight and under powered GM based engines and return to the new Fiat lumps - which are rather impressively specced. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be >> >>> a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just > because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress. Hardly! The extra weight would make it more comparable to a 150bhp petrol. A 200bhp petrol would kick its arse! Each to his own!! > > Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just > > because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Each to his own!! There is very little weight penalty in a diesel - remember, Alfa are using cast iron blocks for their petrols these days, so they're pretty heavy lumps compared with the old all-alloy twin-cam. But, don't focus on the figures on paper, where the diesel really works is that it'll be a lot more forgiving over which gear you're in. My 140bhp diesel can use a single gear and pull from 30mph to nearly 90mph with ease. Try that in a 2.0T petrol.... SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> > Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just >> > because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 140bhp diesel can use a single gear and pull from 30mph to nearly 90mph > with ease. Try that in a 2.0T petrol.... I find quite the opposite to be true - you have to be in the right gear in a diesel or you just get nothing but turbo lag and a jumpy/shuddery ride. A petrol is truely forgiving over which gear you are in with a significantly larger rev range per gear. With regard to the pulling from 30 to 90 point: My 165bhp 2.0 JTS petrol, will pull from 30mph to 95+ in 3rd. From 30mpg to something over 120 in 4th and from 30mph to around 137mph in 5th. No problem, no shudder, no tractor noises and no smoke! So pulling from 30 to 90 sounds quite poor! I find that once you get a diesel to a useable rev range and accelerate for a few seconds you have run out of revs and have to change gear again - far from a relaxing effortless drive! On the other hand, with my petrol engine, above about 25-30mph and you can stick it in top gear and leave it there. It will happily pull in any gear with revs over about 1200 all the way to 6000+, but diesels I have driven required me to be in the right gear and way over 1500 revs and they run out of revs around 3000-4000, just as the power starts to arrive! Again - I think diesel vs petrol is personal preference, but we are in danger of descending into 'my car is better than yours' territory! > I find that once you get a diesel to a useable rev range and accelerate for > a few seconds you have run out of revs and have to change gear again - far [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > over 1500 revs and they run out of revs around 3000-4000, just as the power > starts to arrive! I agree but only because I drive diesels like petrols. When they seem to just get going they run out of steam. In reality though using the torque band (typically around 1800-3500) makes for more rapid progress. Just for petrol heads it doesn't feel that fast. One advantage though is that it is less obvious to passengers so has the advantage of being less prone to nagging... For me driving is not about outright speed (driving a 1.2 Corsa irresponsibly enough will win the combined urban, country journey) but the sensation of performance. Hence diesels just don't do it for me, but each to their own - I never liked low down grunt petrols either, preferring the smaller higher revving units - what Italian engines mean to me, but then I am of the older Alfa generation... Cheers Tony > > I find that once you get a diesel to a useable rev range and accelerate for > > a few seconds you have run out of revs and have to change gear again - far [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > preferring the smaller higher revving units - what Italian engines mean > to me, but then I am of the older Alfa generation... I think that's the thing. Most people form an opinion on diesels based on hire and loan cars, rather than living with one every day. If you jump in it and drive it like a petrol, then you'll find it really disappointing. If you adapt to the way you need to drive a turbo diesel, you'll find that they're a lot more rapid than the 0-60 times suggest. A lot of this is to do with gearing - I've been looking at this recently and trying to pin down exactly what's going on - roll-on in-gear times for a TDI will beat an equivalent powered petrol hands-down, because the torque curve has a much flatter profile - ie. more of it is available at the extremes of the range than in a petrol. This is combined with longer gearing, so the 3k usable range of a diesel covers a wider range of speeds. I've driven the 156 TSpark and my company diesel back to back - the 156 needs to have the engine spinning to get the best out of it - whereas the diesel feels lazy, but is, in reality, covering the ground equally as quickly. Anyway, there are benefits to both - at the weekends I like my revvy petrols, but everyday, I prefer the lazy performance of the diesel. I'm currently looking at upgrading to a 170bhp diesel next spring. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >>> Someone pass the Kleenex: >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you? Indeed not, but power is power ;) SignatureCatman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3 Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply) 116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 156 TS 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2 Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see. www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk > >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a > >>> storming performer, and I desperately want one. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Indeed not, but power is power ;) Torque is what you feel when driving, though. I can appreciate both kinds of engine these days - a couple of years ago, I'd have not even looked at a diesel - but, for everyday use, I'd prefer a diesel. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >>>>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll >>>>> be a storming performer, and I desperately want one. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ago, I'd have not even looked at a diesel - but, for everyday use, I'd > prefer a diesel. The local garage price of 115p/litre kind of puts me off the economy advantages these days! >> >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a >> >>> storming performer, and I desperately want one. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >ago, I'd have not even looked at a diesel - but, for everyday use, I'd >prefer a diesel. Agreed (since 2001). The torque of a 3l+ petrol with the economy of a 1.4l petrol. It makes for a very useable street fighter! However the new batch of quite small but high output turbo petrols look interesting too. SignatureZ Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject will be auto-deleted..sorry!) |
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