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Car Forum / Alfa Romeo Cars / November 2003

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Woodruff Key

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Mark - 23 Nov 2003 14:33 GMT
Hi
I've just had a woodruff key break on my 2000 156 and I'm looking at a
potentially
large repair bill.

I have a warranty from Warranty Holdings which covers "all mechanical and
electrical breakdown" so I thought I would be OK. However they are claiming
that
a woodruff key is not a mechanical part of the engine.

I'm no mechanic, but I can't see how it's anything other than mechanical !!

Anyone with an engineering background have any opinion on this ?
Anyone have a woodruff break on them ?
Any comments appreciated.
Regards
Mark.
Gert-Jan - 23 Nov 2003 17:03 GMT
What is a woodruff key?
Signature

Ciao from Holland
AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
156 SW 1.8 (2000)
Montreal (1973/4)

> Hi
> I've just had a woodruff key break on my 2000 156 and I'm looking at a
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Regards
> Mark.
Catman - 23 Nov 2003 19:27 GMT
>What is a woodruff key?

<fx drags out old engineering lessons>

It's a tapered key that fits into a slot cut partly on a shaft and
something that needs to be attached to that shaft.  Provides an
interference fit, and good rotational strength IYSWIM

Assuming I am right, then I can see the insurance company trying to
claim this is non mechanical as it is technically a fixing.  OTOH I'd
kick up a hell of a rom if they tried to gouge me on this.

Sooo.....

HTF did it break, and wouldn't it be easier to claim against the
components that it held together as failing?

Signature

Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l. Really, Sprint 1.7
Ducati Monster 600 Metallic
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

Gert-Jan - 23 Nov 2003 19:42 GMT
Aha.
And where is this one located, what does it connect?
Signature

Ciao from Holland
AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
156 SW 1.8 (2000)
Montreal (1973/4)

> >What is a woodruff key?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> HTF did it break, and wouldn't it be easier to claim against the
> components that it held together as failing?
Andy Dingley - 24 Nov 2003 00:29 GMT
>I've just had a woodruff key break on my 2000 156

Presumably this was locating the cambelt drive pulley onto the
crankshaft ?

>and I'm looking at a potentially large repair bill.

Which agrees with the above.

>I have a warranty from Warranty Holdings which covers "all mechanical and
>electrical breakdown" so I thought I would be OK.

Why does the posession of a piece of shyster's toilet-roll make you
think this ?  All such warranties are entirely worthless.

>However they are claiming that
>a woodruff key is not a mechanical part of the engine.

That is their function in life, to prevent claims against their tawdry
little document.  Your role now is to call their weaselly little
bluffs.

>I'm no mechanic, but I can't see how it's anything other than mechanical !!
>
>Anyone with an engineering background have any opinion on this ?

It's clearly mechanical. It is a rotating component playing a crucial
role in a major drive path within the engine. It has no scheduled
maintenance, and is rarely removed (or may not even be accessible)
without removing the engine for major rebuild.

They can perfectly well call it upholstery, should they want to, but
that doesn't change its function.

I'm a laser physicist by qualification, and a software geek by trade,
but any competent engineer could argue this for you perfectly
adequately.

>Anyone have a woodruff break on them ?

They very rarely break.  What usually happens is that the nut clamping
the pulley stack onto the end of the crankshaft comes loose, then the
pulleys can fret back and forth. What happens next is a lottery -
either the cambelt can fail (it doesn't enjoy misalignment), or the
woodruff key can wear sufficiently to let the pulleys slide forward
and off.

Personally I've had it happen to me just once. A Fiat Argenta with
about 50K on it decided to dump its fanbelt pulley, but fortunately
not the timing belt cog behind.  I needed to weld the groove in the
pulley and file it back to shape, but nothing too expensive.

I'd suggest re-posting to uk.rec.engines.stationary, for they'd
certainly appreciate this farce. You might even tempt out a few
certified aircraft engineers from therein, for I think there are a
few.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
s - 24 Nov 2003 18:41 GMT
WHA screwed me too.

I tried to claim for leaking balancer shaft seals and was told 'balancer
shafts...nah mate don't cover them'
after a fair old bit of wrangling over the definition of 'Auxiliary shafts'
they finally agreed but said that they would
only pay for the seals and labour to fit. They would not stump up for the
belts tensioner etc that needed doing as part of the job.
Aaaand they only pay ?25 per hour labour costs. Given that at the time Alfa
charged ?67 per hour all in all I got stung for ?422.

This was on a car that I'd owned for about 1 month. The dealer who I bought
from refused point blank to even discuss a contribution. (long story - the
moral of which is...Do not buy a car from any 'Italian car specialists'
based in Essex. Especially if they are based in a big house at the end of a
gravel drive!!)

SS
Rev. Alfa Adam - 24 Nov 2003 20:55 GMT
> Hi
> I've just had a woodruff key break on my 2000 156 and I'm looking at a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I'm no mechanic, but I can't see how it's anything other than mechanical !!

I work for a co. that makes decisions based on simple criteria - 'Is it
hardware or software?'

I know precisely what a woodruffe key is and needs to be - it sure ain't
software!!

Adam H
HQ - 25 Nov 2003 03:34 GMT
Simple steel bits and bobs, like "Woodruff keys" don't "fail".

The securing fastener wasn't torqued properly and that's what caused the
failure.

Simple as that.
s - 25 Nov 2003 16:46 GMT
"The securing fastener wasn't torqued properly and that's ........"

Without getting too pedantic. And with no intent to start a flame war......

Thats a bold statement without the full facts to hand!

Who is to say that the bolt holding the pulley did not contain a flaw that
may have led to failure of the bolt though fatigue - thus allowing the
pulley to come adrift.
What if the bolt hole were not drilled and tapped deep enough, when made, so
that the bolt did torque up -on the bottom of the thread - without locking
the pulley in place.
What if the pulley bore were at top tolerance and the shaft was below bottom
tolerance due to a manufacturing defect - thus enabling the pulley to fret
the key away.

You dont work for a warranty company do you?

:o)

SS
Catman - 26 Nov 2003 18:21 GMT
<snip>

>You dont work for a warranty company do you?

He works for an ex Alfa dealer........
>:o)

Signature

Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l. Really, Sprint 1.7
Ducati Monster 600 Metallic
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

Dev Cloete - 25 Nov 2003 19:32 GMT
HQ is right! With the fastening nut properly tightened you have a friction
lock and the Key just a positioning and additional security method. Someone
did not tighten or lock the nut properly at assembly or else someone fiddled
and damaged the key, groove, nut or locking surfaces!
Boy, am I glad the car is not mine & that we don't have insurance co's like
that in SA.
Good luck with your oncoming fight..
Dev
HQ - 26 Nov 2003 02:09 GMT
One final comment before I drop this mundane subject.  Engineers tend to
"over engineer" things; it's usually the mechanic with the dirty
fingernails who sees the obvious.

Experience is, after all, the best teacher.
johnlongworthb@aol.com - 29 Nov 2003 22:35 GMT
> Hi
> I've just had a woodruff key break on my 2000 156 and I'm looking at a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> a woodruff key is not a mechanical part of the engine.
> I'm no mechanic, but I can't see how it's anything other than mechanical !!

Hi Mark,
It sure is, when it is tight fit to a crankshaft [and will be supplied
with the new crankshaft], it is part of the crankshaft.
If it fails the crankshaft cannot turn other pullys so it cannot do
it's job.
Who is to say it is not the slot in the crankshaft that has worn or
has been damaged at the factory when fitting, allowing the woodruff
key to come out, damaging other parts in the process.
And as someone pointed out All these warranties are the same and don't
like paying out, they just like taking money off you. If you read the
small print you will find I'm sure that, if a part NOT covered by the
warranty breaks, then other parts that break which were covered, are
no longer covered. Therefore your warranty is useless.  John.

> Anyone with an engineering background have any opinion on this ?
> Anyone have a woodruff break on them ?
> Any comments appreciated.
> Regards
> Mark.
 
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