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Car Forum / Pontiac / Pontiac Fiero / September 2006Fiero Wont Start...HELP!!!
I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am running a fuel cell with a new MSD #2225 High pressure fuel pump. I have droped the engine back into the car and everything has been running fine as of last week. I added antifreeze for the first time to the engine today and then started the motor and let it run for about 20 minutes and then shut it off. I immediately decided to crank the engine over again and it would crank fast... but not start. Checked for proper timing and spark. Checked for fuel pressure to the rail and plenty of it. I checked the middle trunk side spark plug and no gas on it. Let the fuel pump run some more by manualy activating it and still no fuel on the plug. I then turned the key and started the engine and it immediately started and ran fine without hesitation and idled beutifully. I turned the engine off and tried to restart it....not a cough or sputter. Manualy ran the fuel pump for about 8 seconds and the car fires right up and continues to run for as long as I do not turn off the key. This same senario happens over and over again. Why will the car not start until the fuel pump runs for 8 seconds prior to starting? I have not found anywhere air can get into the line. I have over 40 psi of fuel to the rail I have a brand new fuel filter Please help...I am going in for paint in 2 weeks...and dont want to push, pull and drag this thing into the booth LOL. Thanks, Chris, OHIO Have a helper flip the key on - listen for the pump. Nothing? Probably the FP relay (was located in front of the air filter housing). The oil pressure switch is supposed to be a backup to the relay - possibly it's going bad and won't flick over until the pressure is really high. These things are semi tough to find without being there ya know. :) If all the above fails.... believe it or not.... replace the ignition module! If it's half bad (yes, it can be!) and not feeding back pulses to the ECM, the ECM won't turn the injectors on (since it can't tell that the engine is now running). >I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am >running [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Thanks, > Chris, OHIO The FP relay kicks in for 2 seconds with the ignition in run position. As of right now I cant tell wheather the FP is running in the start / crank position(Cant hear the fuel cell that far away LOL). If I have 40 psi plus to the fuel rail shouldnt the engine start for a few seconds no matter if the fuel pump is continuing to run in the run position. I also just found out my alternator is not working??? Dont know if it has been working last week or not or ever....but definitely dead now. I would not think the alternator would have anything to do with the car not firing. The engine does run for as long as I want it to until I turn the key off. Then I must go through the manual 8 second fuel pump power up to get it to start again. I assume from this that the fuel pump is continuing to run in the run position by the ECM when motor is firing. I cant get my oil pressure gage to work...dont know if it is the sender or the cluster. Only gage that does not work right now. Oil gage always reads "PEGGED" pressure no matter if engine is running or not. Have not check the Ignition module, yet...but when I was rotating the distributer when the ignition was in the run position the fuel pump kicked on all by itself for 2 seconds out of the blue...Could something be loose to the module or surrounding wires? However the FP always kicks on for 2 second after the switch has been moved into run. Out of curiosity could it be a cold start valve? Cold start injector? I dont get it...Everything was working fine until I let the engine idle for 20 minutes...Of course it has been 6 years since the engine or electronics have been used. Always garaged though. I have 5 fieros...3 of which are kit cars and 2 of which are running parts cars...So its not a big deal to throw parts at this project to get things right. Sorry for writing a book...Any additional comments would be appreciated!!!! Thanks John for your comments. If anyone has the time to talk fiero issues you could email me your phone number with best time to call: email address is jimbo243@hotmail.com. I would greatly appreciate it!!! >Have a helper flip the key on - listen for the pump. >Nothing? Probably the FP relay (was located in front of the air filter [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> Thanks, >> Chris, OHIO I just sprayed some starter fluid into the air intake and it starts right up and stays running fine until I turn the key off. When I try to restart the same problem describe before happens. Does this mean the control module is most likely the culprit...or is there something else I might be missing. >The FP relay kicks in for 2 seconds with the ignition in run position. > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>> Thanks, >>> Chris, OHIO OK...this morning the car starts everytime from a cold start. After the engine heats up I run into the same problem again. >I just sprayed some starter fluid into the air intake and it starts right up >and stays running fine until I turn the key off. When I try to restart the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>>> Thanks, >>>> Chris, OHIO > OK...this morning the car starts everytime from a cold start. After the > engine heats up I run into the same problem again. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Chris, OHIO This all sounds like ignition module. The first symptom of failure is no spark when sitting a few moments while hot. If the the module does not generate the signal to the ecm it will not inject any fuel. One quick clue is the tachometer, it should read the cranking speed while cranking, 300-400rpm. If it reads zero you definitely have ignition module problems. I burned out a starter and had to pay for a tow home after repeated instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter the thing started right up since it was cold. RW I am getting spark when engine is hot The RPM gauge reads approx 400 RPM when cranking Doe this still sound like the control module? >> OK...this morning the car starts everytime from a cold start. After the >> engine heats up I run into the same problem again. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter >the thing started right up since it was cold. My local parts store said they can test the module. Are these test full proof or hit and miss with my situation? >RW > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter >>the thing started right up since it was cold. > My local parts store said they can test the module. Are these test full > proof or hit and miss with my situation? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>> instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter >>> the thing started right up since it was cold. The only reliable test is replacement. They aren't that expensive or hard to change out. Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine. Also to note that this module was brand new and came with a new distributor and rotor and cap 6 years ago...all this was just fired for the first time a few weeks ago. Is their any chance that the ecm might be bad or other issues >> My local parts store said they can test the module. Are these test full >> proof or hit and miss with my situation? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The only reliable test is replacement. They aren't that expensive or >hard to change out. Think this through Car won't start hot. Shoot some starting fluid in it. Car starts and runs. Car won't start hot. Manually run the fuel pump. Car starts and runs. You have a fuel delivery problem. It may be draining back and is taking longer than expected to fill the rails again when hot, or something else is going on, but you have a fuel delivery problem. John Stricker > Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine. Also to > note [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ago. > Is their any chance that the ecm might be bad or other issues The module tested fine... because it was cold! Bring a heat gun with you next time, and bake the crap out of it while the guys testing it (this is sure to win brownie points and make him happy! Not... hehehe). It'll probably fail. Anyhow, if it'll light off with starting fluid, and most of these symptoms are when it's hot.... ......... Replace ignition module! ............. After working on 100% Fiero's for 5 years solid - I've probably replaced 50 or more of them. Make sure the distributor base is FLAT and CLEAN. Use the best heat sink paste you can find (arctic silver 5 for computers is about the best stuff) between the module and dist. Only use a thin film of it - more is not better!. > Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine. John Craker OK...I am going to pull the module out of one of my parts cars tomorrow. CROSS YOUR FINGERS!!! LOL I'd rather just replace it then bring my wifes hot pink hair dryer in front of all the auto buffs at the parts store :) Also just to note ecm codes...I have 2 that pulled up from the ALDL. Code 34 Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor The ECM will set code 34 when a problem with the MAP sensor is detected (unusual high vacuum/low pressure). Code 34 usually indicates a defective MAP sensor. Check all connections and replace the MAP sensor if necessary. and Code 54...whatever that code means... I changed the computer today with one from the parts car that had a weird 4K RPM idle and now that issue carried over to the countach so now it has a 4K RPM idle with this ecm. This parts car ecm pulled only one code:(see below) Code 23: Manifold Air Temperature (V6 only) If the ECM detects a problem with the MAT sensor (unusual low temperature reading), it will set Code 23. Check all connections and replace the MAT sensor if necessary. Thanks everyone for your help...I will report back tomorrow. >The module tested fine... because it was cold! > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >> Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine. Oh...and of course the parts car ecm wont start the car when its warm either.. ..So at least the ECM is out of the question! >John Craker > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> >>> Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine. I decided to go ahead and pull the module out of the parts car tonight and swap it with the other module that tested good earlier. Well...same deal.... nothing has changed...still at square one. Any other ideas out there??? >Oh...and of course the parts car ecm wont start the car when its warm either.. >..So at least the ECM is out of the question! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> >>>> Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine. remove your gas cap, and try to start it. > I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am running > a fuel cell with a new MSD #2225 High pressure fuel pump. I have droped the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Thanks, > Chris, OHIO Been there...done that LOL Still no luck. >remove your gas cap, and try to start it. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Thanks, >> Chris, OHIO Ok so from what I've read thru the thread, it appears you have a fuel delivery problem. you might try a fuel pressure regulator and experiment with various pressure setting. After that, if it doesn't work, I'd break down and buy 6 new injectors, since you indicated that these were rebuilt or reworked. > Been there...done that LOL > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> Thanks, > >> Chris, OHIO |
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