Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (Australian group) / December 2005
89/90 Overheating Patrol, about 90% fixed
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Ezookiel/Trentus - 03 Dec 2005 19:46 GMT I almost don't believe it myself, but just running the "value pack" from www.costeffective.com.au through the oil, then replacing the oil and filter, then doing it again (there's enough in a pack for two flushes) appears to have almost fixed the overheating problem. Instead of boiling half way up my test hill, it made it all the way to the top with the temp gauge only hitting about 75% That's probably still hotter than I'm comfortable with, but it's a HELL of a lot better than boiling half way up. I still don't see how running something through the oil to clean out the engine or whatever it did, can affect the COOLING system of the vehicle, but it's has without a doubt made a major difference. Maybe if it was a product that went through the cooling system I could understand it, but anyway, now for another big test, it's been sitting all night, let's see if it still blows the one big cloud of white smoke she used to always blow immediately on starting up.
Once the fuel system cleaner has had some time to run through (I haven't even used a tenth of a tank yet) I'll let you know if it's made any difference, and then I'll also be able to run their decarbonizer as well, which I bought as an extra to the value pack. So far I have to say I'm absolutely blown away by the product.
Ezookiel/Trentus
bulfrog - 03 Dec 2005 21:30 GMT > I almost don't believe it myself, but just running the "value pack" from > www.costeffective.com.au through the oil, then replacing the oil and filter, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Ezookiel/Trentus Most of that sort of crap dont work, you would have been better off putting your money to better use fixing the radiator or motor problems. In over 40 years in the trade I can tell you that nothing you put in the oil will cure a chronic overheating problem.. . .If its a diesel and blows white smoke on startup its probley low compression from 300,000kms If is a petrol and it blows white smoke on start up its coolant escaping into the cylinders overnight. .. and you are in big trouble.
Jason Backshall - 05 Dec 2005 05:34 GMT > Most of that sort of crap dont work, you would have been better off > putting your money to better use fixing the radiator or motor problems. In > over 40 years in the trade I can tell you that nothing you put in the oil > will cure a chronic overheating problem.. Having spent so long in the industry then, you'd also appreciate sludge in the oil galleys can restrict oilflow, preventing the oil from getting where it needs to go.
What is a lubricant's main purpose? To prevent friction.
What is the most common by-product of friction?
Heat.
It's not really rocket science guys.
J.
Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 06:50 GMT > > Most of that sort of crap dont work, you would have been better off > > putting your money to better use fixing the radiator or motor [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > J. And friction increased to the point where the heat byproduct had such an impact on the water temperature would cause very rapid wear and failure.
And that ain't rocket science neither....
 Signature Tony Smith
bulfrog - 05 Dec 2005 09:26 GMT >>Most of that sort of crap dont work, you would have been better off >>putting your money to better use fixing the radiator or motor problems. In [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > J. There is a big difference between the real world and your theory. In the real world nothing you can add to oil will overcome a chronic overheating problem. If you could add anything to oil, I would have not been replacing radiators, repairing leaks, head gaskets etc and wasting my time for the last 40yrs. And friction from a oil problem will kill the engine long before it will ASSIST or CAUSE a overheating problem. In our trade most mechanics fix overheating problems not add a can of fix all sold by some mob who have to have testimonials to back up there products.
Its not really rocket science !!
Tony Smith - 04 Dec 2005 00:33 GMT > I almost don't believe it myself, Fit a Hi-clone, a magnetic fuel cracker, an orgone energy polariser and a St. Christopher's medal to hang from the rear vision mirror and you will have all bases covered......
How much did your wonder substance cost?
BTW, if the stuff you put through your engine was flushing oil, and the engine survived the experience, you should go buy a lotto entry.
Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines than I care to think about
Barnsey - 04 Dec 2005 05:43 GMT >> I almost don't believe it myself, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines than I > care to think about Like this?
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=video&file=pennzoil.wmv
Ezookiel/Trentus - 04 Dec 2005 08:12 GMT >> I almost don't believe it myself, > > Fit a Hi-clone, a magnetic fuel cracker, an orgone energy polariser and a > St. Christopher's medal to hang from the rear vision mirror and you will > have all bases covered...... Now how did I know the old hi-clone etc would pop it's head up in this thread. Well it was just ASKING for someone to equate the two. It does seem a bit too good to be true..
The fact is, that we'd already replaced the whole radiator, waterpump, thermostat, hoses, pressure tested it, etc etc etc, to the tune of $2K, there wasn't much else LEFT to do. And in this instance, it's worked. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe something just "came good" in the cooling system by itself at the same time as I ran the product through. But the fact remains I can now climb a hill all the way without boiling, where before I couldn't get halfway. I'm just intriqued that it worked. But the fact that it HAS is not something I can dispute. I still really like to know WHY it's worked. And today was substantially hotter weather, and I still managed to climb the hill, in fact, it seemed to climb even cooler than yesterday when the weather was quite cool and wet.
> How much did your wonder substance cost? $99 for both products including postage, which is chicken feed compared to the $2K we've blown in attempts to find this problem. Frankly, I was prepared to at least TRY it at that price just in CASE in worked. I didn't have much to lose. It was a lot cheaper than any of the other options that were left to me. This close to Christmas I just simply didn't have any major money left to continue playing around.
> BTW, if the stuff you put through your engine was flushing oil, and the > engine survived the experience, you should go buy a lotto entry. Did you go look at the site? The instructions - which I followed - were to add it to clean oil (I'd only done a change last week, so the oil that was there was good enough), run it for 20 - 30 minutes, drain oil and replace oil and filters, go on your merry way. It did NOT involve running an engine without oil. If it had involved that, I wouldn't have done it. Not in ANY engine, and sure as hell not in my diesel engine.
> Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines than I > care to think about It actually says not to use it on badly worn engines. But I've already had my engine checked and found to be in good condition. In fact, whether it was "dirty" I can't really say, but apparently the engine itself is in superb condition. I had one mechanic describe the car as "The buy of the century" (mind you HE didn't know about the overheating at the time as he hadn't taken the car out bush, and it was the middle of a Canberra Winter where the ambient temperature is in low single digits). The car has always run at acceptable temperatures (25% of gauge) around town. Especially in winter. It's just on really huge climbs it starts to heat up quickly.
I was hoping to get some suggestions here as to WHY something like this would work, when it has nothing to do with the cooling system. I should have known from previous discussions on things like the Hi-clone (no I don't think they work, and am not about to put one on) that scoffers are pretty prevalent around here ;)
Zook.
D Walford - 04 Dec 2005 08:56 GMT > I was hoping to get some suggestions here as to WHY something like this > would work, when it has nothing to do with the cooling system. I should have > known from previous discussions on things like the Hi-clone (no I don't > think they work, and am not about to put one on) that scoffers are pretty > prevalent around here ;) Only thing I can think of and its a very wild guess is that the engine has an oil cooler which was blocked, somehow the additive unblocked the oil cooler. Does engine have an oil cooler, lots of diesels do?
Daryl
Ezookiel/Trentus - 04 Dec 2005 09:04 GMT > Only thing I can think of and its a very wild guess is that the engine has > an oil cooler which was blocked, somehow the additive unblocked the oil > cooler. > Does engine have an oil cooler, lots of diesels do? Absolutely no mortal idea. Unfortunately, you've no doubt already worked out, I know diddly squat about engines in general, and even less about diesels, having only owned one for a month or two. Previously having only had petrols, and having had everything - except brake changes and oil changes - done by mechanics.
A situation I seriously want to change, I might add. But the problem is finding time with work and family, to go do a course.
Zook
Kev - 04 Dec 2005 12:37 GMT > Absolutely no mortal idea. Unfortunately, you've no doubt already worked > out, I know diddly squat about engines in general, and even less about [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > A situation I seriously want to change, I might add. But the problem is > finding time with work and family, to go do a course. looking for an oil cooler is easy it will usually be in front of the radiator, it is basically a radiator for oil so you know what one should look like, but it will be about 1/4 the size of the coolant radiator, there will be hoses that go back and connect to the engine block, probably to, or near where the turbo oil lines connect to the engine
this may also be something you might like to consider fitting if it doesn't have one, keeping the oil from overheating will help you engine last longer, especially if you intend doing any heavy or long distance towing
You also mentioned that every time you start the engine when cold you get a big cloud of white smoke, a diesel engine in good condition will not do this, you need to have that investigated, white smoke is unburnt fuel, this can be caused by low compression, worn/leaking injectors or the glow plugs are stuffed
do you know when the injectors were done last, I would be having them rebuilt/replaced as a matter course with any diesel(even when new some diesels benifit greatly by having the injectors reset)
having a bad fuel spray pattern from worn injectors can contribute to engine overheating
Kev
D Walford - 05 Dec 2005 04:36 GMT >>Absolutely no mortal idea. Unfortunately, you've no doubt already worked >>out, I know diddly squat about engines in general, and even less about [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > last longer, especially if you intend doing any heavy or long distance > towing My BJ40 had an oil to water oil cooler, it was like a heat exchanger where the water cools the oil.
> You also mentioned that every time you start the engine when cold you > get a big cloud of white smoke, a diesel engine in good condition will > not do this, you need to have that investigated, white smoke is unburnt > fuel, this can be caused by low compression, worn/leaking injectors or > the glow plugs are stuffed do you know when the injectors were done last, I would be having them
> rebuilt/replaced as a matter course with any diesel(even when new some > diesels benifit greatly by having the injectors reset) > > having a bad fuel spray pattern from worn injectors can contribute to > engine overheating It does sound like there is something very wrong with the fuel system, as well as the white smoke I think he said it was using 20lt/100klm which is very excessive.
Daryl
Biggus La Great. - 05 Dec 2005 01:20 GMT It has worked on numerous engines on exploroz members, mine included which has 330k klms on it.
I still have the bottle of CEM on my desk here.
>BTW, if the stuff you put through your engine was flushing oil, and the >engine survived the experience, you should go buy a lotto entry. > >Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines than I >care to think about Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 06:48 GMT > It has worked on numerous engines on exploroz members, mine included > which has 330k klms on it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines > > than I care to think about You may well be a Dill, but I doubt that you actually mistreat your engines, you know, an oil change every 5 years or so, filters changed slightly less regularly than that.
Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway, particularly a diesel. Still people believe in all kinds of silly things.
Anyway, take one well abused engine that is chock full of crud. Add a bottle of flushing oil which jumps right in and gets all that crud loose and moving.
Ten seconds later you have total lubrication failure, or alternatively the bypass kicks in and you send all that now nicely suspended crud straight through your bearings with rather predictable and inevitable results...
That's why you don't use flushing oil, because if your engine needs it, the "flush" stands a fair chance of destroying it.
 Signature Tony Smith
Biggus La Great. - 05 Dec 2005 09:05 GMT >Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to >question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway, particularly a >diesel. Still people believe in all kinds of silly things. If you buy a truck second hand how the f.ck do you know whats happened for the last X kmls?
Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 09:11 GMT > > Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to > > question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway, > > particularly a diesel. Still people believe in all kinds of silly > > things. > If you buy a truck second hand how the f.ck do you know whats happened > for the last X kmls? Well, if you have half a brain, you don't stick flushing oil in it do you......
What you do is lift the tappet covers, perhaps even drop the sump, maybe even hire a borescope and stick it down it's throat and have a look.
Mind you, you need a brain to do those things.
And, by the way, you might like to tell us all how sticking a bottle of flushing oil down its throat tells you "the f.ck whats happened for the last X kmls?" to mildly misquote your own apparent assertion.
Those cars aren't talking to you again are they Biggus?
 Signature
Tony Smith
Biggus La Great. - 05 Dec 2005 11:03 GMT >Well, if you have half a brain, you don't stick flushing oil in it do >you...... If you had a 10th of a brain you would be dangerous. Of course you flush an engine with an engine flush, you dont use Coke do you? Same as you do with the coolant, and others. Anyone with a brain would flush and change all fluids when they buy second hand vehicles. Still with us?
>What you do is lift the tappet covers, perhaps even drop the sump, >maybe even hire a borescope and stick it down it's throat and have a >look. or just flush the oil.
>Mind you, you need a brain to do those things. How the f.ck would you know?
>And, by the way, you might like to tell us all how sticking a bottle of >flushing oil down its throat tells you "the f.ck whats happened for the >last X kmls?" to mildly misquote your own apparent assertion. It shows you how much sludge is in the oil, this way you can tell how often the oil has been changed. But that would be beyond your capacity wouldnt it?
if you want to be serious you send some oil away for testing, but as I found out while working for a place that makes the sh.t, and tests it it doesnt always tell everything you need to know.
Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 12:13 GMT >>Well, if you have half a brain, you don't stick flushing oil in it do >>you...... > If you had a 10th of a brain you would be dangerous. > Of course you flush an engine with an engine flush, you dont use Coke > do you? You know your biggest problem biggus?
No of course you don't, so I'll tell you.
You are too stupid, to begin to comprehend how stupid you actually are.
It's a kind of protection thingy that nature/evolution provides the truly stupid with, else they start throwing themselves off cliffs or under trains or something.
Just go back and talk to your car Biggus, they probably make about as much sense as you do.
If you don't like the FACT that flushing oil is a crock of sh.t, you can always go set fire to yourself in protest or something.
Tony Smith
Barnsey - 05 Dec 2005 11:03 GMT >> > Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to >> > question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Those cars aren't talking to you again are they Biggus? <grave dig>
What if it's an imported Surf?
LOL!
Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 12:42 GMT > <grave dig> > > What if it's an imported Surf? > > LOL! Barnsey, in a nutshell that's the problem.
It doesn't matter whether the engin e in question is in an imported Toyota Surf, a Nissan Patrol, or a bloody Volga or Tatra.
Nor does it matter whether or not the engine in question is a diesel, a petrol or a blasted stirling engine.
They all obey the same laws of physics.
Some of those laws mean things like:-
An additive you tip in your oil cannot stop your engine overheating.
Another says, that if you suddenly strip off years of accumulated crud off the inside of your engine by putting "flushing oil" down its throat, that crud has to go somewhere else. If there is enough of it to clog your filter (always assuming your engine has a full flow filter) and the bypass operates, that crud is going to go into every wiping surface in your engine and work just like grinding paste, with exactly the same results.
The gullibility of some people surprises me, the boundless stupidity of others astounds.
Rainbow Warrior - 05 Dec 2005 13:52 GMT >> <grave dig> >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > The gullibility of some people surprises me, the boundless stupidity of > others astounds. No bypass in any of the filters I've seen, I suspect flow just stops if they got clogged, of course you could change the filter when you dump the flushing oil.
I prefer to just keep doing oil changes with little time between, basically as soon as the oil discolours, till eventually it stays clean for most of the 5000km.
Scotty - 05 Dec 2005 20:11 GMT >> Those cars aren't talking to you again are they Biggus? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > LOL! Well you will have years and years of endless fun and reliability and boiling/overheating wont be an issue then eh.
Oh okay, oil chnages as well if you must be pedantic
Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 22:32 GMT > Well you will have years and years of endless fun and reliability and > boiling/overheating wont be an issue then eh. Sadly, the cooling system of the 2L-TE engined surf is just adequate when the entire cooling system is in perfect working condition.
I know all too well from participation on the Surf lists that chasing rainbows, magic potions and faith healing will not cure overheating....
> Oh okay, oil chnages as well if you must be pedantic I'm waiting for someone to point out that given the characteristics of diesel oil that the institution of regular oil changes alone will rapidly "de-crud" a mistreated engine, but do it in a way less likely to cause harm than suddenly causing every last bit of "crud" to become mobile.
And yes, idling an engine for 20 minutes with a sump full of diesel will probably not of itself cause problems, indeed the average well worn engine would happily idle all day with NO oil in it.
The possibility for harm is that if enough crud is freed so that the filter becomes clogged which then leads to one of two things.
If no bypass, then probably no foul-no harm because the crud didn't go through the engine.
If a pressure bypass, or worse a non full-flow filtration system, then you are sending the crud through the lubrication system, which as I said, is like feeding it grinding paste.
Hence my original comment of buying a Lotto ticket if the engine survives the experience.
Late last night I was looking through my emails and I found one sent to me by one of the team who flew a Neptune out of Davis Montham in the US to Australia in the late 80s.
The aircraft had sat idle (though "inhibited") since the late 60s or early 70s. After putting penetrating oil down the bores to free things up, they dumped the oil in the tanks and refilled with a somewhat lighter oil than the engines (R3350) would normally use (advice was sought from the manufacturer) and after all filters were changed, they fired up the engines, which were then run at varying speeds for 30 minutes. Oil was then dumped and filters changed (at nearly US $1k per engine + whatever around 40 gallons of oil per engine costs).
At that point, the correct oil was installed and the engines ground run (again for a relatively short period of time due to the fact that the buggers tend to overheat on the ground) prior to a brief flight. After that flight the filters were sent for sectioning and analysis, mainly to see if there was metal present, and if so what type, and also to check for other chemical or particulate presence.
When all was found to be well, new filters were fitted, oil topped up and they did some longer test flights prior to flying from West coast USA to Hawaii and then to Townsville, Australia.
Whilst they had numerous electrical and other malfunctions, the one thing they never worried about were the engines because they had approached the issue of engines in largely unknown condition, that had sat idle for a couple of decades in an intelligent, planned way designed to both not harm the engine and give them definitive information about what was going on inside them.
I wonder if they would have had the confidence to do two very long over-water flights if they had just bunged in some "flushing oil", then done an oil change, pumped up the tyres, filled the tanks and launched into the sky. More to the point, I wonder if they would have been aviators or swimmers.
Tony Smith
D Walford - 06 Dec 2005 07:38 GMT >>Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to >>question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway, particularly a >>diesel. Still people believe in all kinds of silly things. > > If you buy a truck second hand how the f.ck do you know whats happened > for the last X kmls? You don't but I agree that flushing oil is a bad idea. Whenever I buy a sh vehicle I change the oil ASAP, change it again after 2500klms then again after another 5000klms before going to normal oil change intervals.
Daryl
Scotty - 05 Dec 2005 20:09 GMT > That's why you don't use flushing oil, because if your engine needs it, > the "flush" stands a fair chance of destroying it. I took my old car to a mechanic years ago (before I knew how) and he dropped the oil and added 4 litres of deisel into the sump and ran on idle for around 20 seconds. Drained that and it flushed the motor of all its shitty oil.
Never reved it above idle and once drained the sludge and deisel (which he left for 20min or so) filled with oil and a new filter. Would this damage the motor at idle?
Barnsey - 05 Dec 2005 20:50 GMT >> That's why you don't use flushing oil, because if your engine needs it, >> the "flush" stands a fair chance of destroying it. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > left for 20min or so) filled with oil and a new filter. Would this damage > the motor at idle? I'm trying to think back to when I had my 91 Subaru with a stuck lifter. I was advised to do the same as above, or something similar. I tried a few additives too, but cant remember what they were. The alternative was new lifters for $1500, or something outrageous like that.
In the end, a collision with a cow fixed the problem of owning a Subaru in the first place.
Biggus La Great. - 05 Dec 2005 22:38 GMT Dont talk logic the fool will blow a seal. If he hasnt done it or invented the idea its horse sh.t in his foolish eyes..
Killfiles are a great thing.
>I took my old car to a mechanic years ago (before I knew how) and he dropped >the oil and added 4 litres of deisel into the sump and ran on idle for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >left for 20min or so) filled with oil and a new filter. Would this damage >the motor at idle? Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 23:16 GMT > Dont talk logic the fool will blow a seal. If he hasnt done it or > invented the idea its horse sh.t in his foolish eyes.. The only fool to blow a seal when presented with logic Bigarse, is you. Again and again....
The only person to spout "horseshit" instead of fact is you Bogus. Again and again.
> Killfiles are a great thing. They are indeed, however on the off chance you are smart enough to figure out how to set one up, you lack the courage to use it..
Tony Smith
Kev - 06 Dec 2005 20:12 GMT > > That's why you don't use flushing oil, because if your engine needs it, > > the "flush" stands a fair chance of destroying it. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > left for 20min or so) filled with oil and a new filter. Would this damage > the motor at idle? Yes if the goose didn't then flush all the diesel from the engine with new oil then change that after running the engine for a few mins a bit of diesel left in the oil galleries and the oil pump can stuff the new oil
Kev
Figjam aka Biggus dickus - 07 Dec 2005 06:02 GMT IAWBigK
> Yes if the goose didn't then flush all the diesel from the engine with > new oil then change that after running the engine for a few mins > a bit of diesel left in the oil galleries and the oil pump can stuff the > new oil > > Kev Rainbow Warrior - 07 Dec 2005 10:02 GMT > IAWBigK IDUWTFTSF
>> Yes if the goose didn't then flush all the diesel from the engine with >> new oil then change that after running the engine for a few mins >> a bit of diesel left in the oil galleries and the oil pump can stuff the >> new oil >> >> Kev Ezookiel/Trentus - 07 Dec 2005 12:20 GMT >> IAWBigK I think it stood for
I A gree W ith Big Kev
> IDUWTFTSF I assume yours stood for
I D on't U nderstand W hat T he F rock T hat S tood F or
Zook
Rainbow Warrior - 07 Dec 2005 13:09 GMT >>> IAWBigK > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Zook Se internet chat is so easy to pick up :)
Figjam aka Biggus dickus - 08 Dec 2005 06:40 GMT Correct!
Fig
>>> IAWBigK > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Zook Rainbow Warrior - 08 Dec 2005 08:56 GMT IGTASO
> Correct! > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >> Zook
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