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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (Australian group) / December 2005

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89/90 Overheating Patrol, about 90% fixed

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Ezookiel/Trentus - 03 Dec 2005 19:46 GMT
I almost don't believe it myself, but just running the "value pack" from
www.costeffective.com.au through the oil, then replacing the oil and filter,
then doing it again (there's enough in a pack for two flushes) appears to
have almost fixed the overheating problem.
Instead of boiling half way up my test hill, it made it all the way to the
top with the temp gauge only hitting about 75% That's probably still hotter
than I'm comfortable with, but it's a HELL of a lot better than boiling half
way up.
I still don't see how running something through the oil to clean out the
engine or whatever it did, can affect the COOLING system of the vehicle, but
it's has without a doubt made a major difference. Maybe if it was a product
that went through the cooling system I could understand it, but anyway, now
for another big test, it's been sitting all night, let's see if it still
blows the one big cloud of white smoke she used to always blow immediately
on starting up.

Once the fuel system cleaner has had some time to run through (I haven't
even used a tenth of a tank yet) I'll let you know if it's made any
difference, and then I'll also be able to run their decarbonizer as well,
which I bought as an extra to the value pack. So far I have to say I'm
absolutely blown away by the product.

Ezookiel/Trentus
bulfrog - 03 Dec 2005 21:30 GMT
> I almost don't believe it myself, but just running the "value pack" from
> www.costeffective.com.au through the oil, then replacing the oil and filter,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Ezookiel/Trentus

Most of that sort of crap dont work, you would have been better off
putting your money to better use fixing the radiator or motor problems.
In over 40 years in the trade I can tell you that nothing you put in the
oil will cure a chronic overheating  problem.. . .If its a diesel and
blows white smoke on startup its probley low compression from 300,000kms
If is a petrol and it blows white smoke on start up its coolant escaping
into the cylinders overnight.  .. and you are in big trouble.
Jason Backshall - 05 Dec 2005 05:34 GMT
> Most of that sort of crap dont work, you would have been better off
> putting your money to better use fixing the radiator or motor problems. In
> over 40 years in the trade I can tell you that nothing you put in the oil
> will cure a chronic overheating  problem..

Having spent so long in the industry then, you'd also appreciate sludge in
the oil galleys can restrict oilflow, preventing the oil from getting where
it needs to go.

What is a lubricant's main purpose? To prevent friction.

What is the most common by-product of friction?

Heat.

It's not really rocket science guys.

J.
Tony  Smith - 05 Dec 2005 06:50 GMT
> > Most of that sort of crap dont work, you would have been better off
> > putting your money to better use fixing the radiator or motor
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> J.

And friction increased to the point where the heat byproduct had such
an impact on the water temperature would cause very rapid wear and
failure.

And that ain't rocket science neither....

Signature

Tony Smith

bulfrog - 05 Dec 2005 09:26 GMT
>>Most of that sort of crap dont work, you would have been better off
>>putting your money to better use fixing the radiator or motor problems. In
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> J.

There is a big difference between the real world and your theory. In the
real world nothing you can add to oil will overcome a chronic
overheating problem. If you could add anything to oil, I would have not
been replacing radiators, repairing leaks, head gaskets etc and wasting
my time for the last 40yrs. And friction from a oil problem will kill
the engine long before it will ASSIST or CAUSE a overheating problem. In
our trade most mechanics fix overheating problems not add a can of fix
all sold by some mob who have to have testimonials to back up there
products.

Its not really rocket science  !!
Tony Smith - 04 Dec 2005 00:33 GMT
> I almost don't believe it myself,

Fit a Hi-clone, a magnetic fuel cracker, an orgone energy polariser and a
St. Christopher's medal to hang from the rear vision mirror and you will
have all bases covered......

How much did your wonder substance cost?

BTW, if the stuff you put through your engine was flushing oil, and the
engine survived the experience, you should go buy a lotto entry.

Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines than I
care to think about
Barnsey - 04 Dec 2005 05:43 GMT
>> I almost don't believe it myself,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines than I
> care to think about

Like this?

http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=video&file=pennzoil.wmv
Ezookiel/Trentus - 04 Dec 2005 08:12 GMT
>> I almost don't believe it myself,
>
> Fit a Hi-clone, a magnetic fuel cracker, an orgone energy polariser and a
> St. Christopher's medal to hang from the rear vision mirror and you will
> have all bases covered......

Now how did I know the old hi-clone etc would pop it's head up in this
thread. Well it was just ASKING for someone to equate the two. It does seem
a bit too good to be true..

The fact is, that we'd already replaced the whole radiator, waterpump,
thermostat, hoses, pressure tested it,  etc etc etc, to the tune of $2K,
there wasn't much else LEFT to do. And in this instance, it's worked. Maybe
it's a coincidence, maybe something just "came good" in the cooling system
by itself at the same time as I ran the product through. But the fact
remains I can now climb a hill all the way without boiling, where before I
couldn't get halfway. I'm just intriqued that it worked. But the fact that
it HAS is not something I can dispute. I still really like to know WHY it's
worked. And today was substantially hotter weather, and I still managed to
climb the hill, in fact, it seemed to climb even cooler than yesterday when
the weather was quite cool and wet.

> How much did your wonder substance cost?

$99 for both products including postage, which is chicken feed compared to
the $2K we've blown in attempts to find this problem. Frankly, I was
prepared to at least TRY it at that price just in CASE in worked. I didn't
have much to lose. It was a lot cheaper than any of the other options that
were left to me. This close to Christmas I just simply didn't have any major
money left to continue playing around.

> BTW, if the stuff you put through your engine was flushing oil, and the
> engine survived the experience, you should go buy a lotto entry.

Did you go look at the site? The instructions - which I followed - were to
add it to clean oil (I'd only done a change last week, so the oil that was
there was good enough), run it for 20 - 30 minutes, drain oil and replace
oil and filters, go on your merry way. It did NOT involve running an engine
without oil. If it had involved that, I wouldn't have done it. Not in ANY
engine, and sure as hell not in my diesel engine.

> Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines than I
> care to think about

It actually says not to use it on badly worn engines. But I've already had
my engine checked and found to be in good condition.  In fact, whether it
was "dirty" I can't really say, but apparently the engine itself is in
superb condition. I had one mechanic describe the car as "The buy of the
century" (mind you HE didn't know about the overheating at the time as he
hadn't taken the car out bush, and it was the middle of a Canberra Winter
where the ambient temperature is in low single digits).  The car has always
run at acceptable temperatures (25% of gauge) around town. Especially in
winter. It's just on really huge climbs it starts to heat up quickly.

I was hoping to get some suggestions here as to WHY something like this
would work, when it has nothing to do with the cooling system. I should have
known from previous discussions on things like the Hi-clone (no I don't
think they work, and am not about to put one on) that scoffers are pretty
prevalent around here ;)

Zook.
D Walford - 04 Dec 2005 08:56 GMT
> I was hoping to get some suggestions here as to WHY something like this
> would work, when it has nothing to do with the cooling system. I should have
> known from previous discussions on things like the Hi-clone (no I don't
> think they work, and am not about to put one on) that scoffers are pretty
> prevalent around here ;)

Only thing I can think of and its a very wild guess is that the engine
has an oil cooler which was blocked, somehow the additive unblocked the
oil cooler.
Does engine have an oil cooler, lots of diesels do?

Daryl
Ezookiel/Trentus - 04 Dec 2005 09:04 GMT
> Only thing I can think of and its a very wild guess is that the engine has
> an oil cooler which was blocked, somehow the additive unblocked the oil
> cooler.
> Does engine have an oil cooler, lots of diesels do?

Absolutely no mortal idea. Unfortunately, you've no doubt already worked
out, I know diddly squat about engines in general, and even less about
diesels, having only owned one for a month or two. Previously having only
had petrols, and having had everything - except brake changes and oil
changes - done by mechanics.

A situation I seriously want to change, I might add. But the problem is
finding time with work and family, to go do a course.

Zook
Kev - 04 Dec 2005 12:37 GMT
> Absolutely no mortal idea. Unfortunately, you've no doubt already worked
> out, I know diddly squat about engines in general, and even less about
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> A situation I seriously want to change, I might add. But the problem is
> finding time with work and family, to go do a course.

looking for an oil cooler is easy
it will usually be in front of the radiator, it is basically a radiator
for oil so you know what one should look like, but it will be about 1/4
the size of the coolant radiator, there will be hoses that go back and
connect to the engine block, probably to, or near where the turbo oil
lines connect to the engine

this may also be something you might like to consider fitting if it
doesn't have one, keeping the oil from overheating will help you engine
last longer, especially if you intend doing any heavy or long distance
towing

You also mentioned that every time you start the engine when cold you
get a big cloud of white smoke, a diesel engine in good condition will
not do this, you need to have that investigated, white smoke is unburnt
fuel, this can be caused by low compression, worn/leaking injectors or
the glow plugs are stuffed

do you know when the injectors were done last, I would be having them
rebuilt/replaced as a matter course with any diesel(even when new some
diesels benifit greatly by having the injectors reset)

having a bad fuel spray pattern from worn injectors can contribute to
engine overheating

Kev
D Walford - 05 Dec 2005 04:36 GMT
>>Absolutely no mortal idea. Unfortunately, you've no doubt already worked
>>out, I know diddly squat about engines in general, and even less about
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> last longer, especially if you intend doing any heavy or long distance
> towing

My BJ40 had an oil to water oil cooler, it was like a heat exchanger
where the water cools the oil.

> You also mentioned that every time you start the engine when cold you
> get a big cloud of white smoke, a diesel engine in good condition will
> not do this, you need to have that investigated, white smoke is unburnt
> fuel, this can be caused by low compression, worn/leaking injectors or
> the glow plugs are stuffed

  do you know when the injectors were done last, I would be having them
> rebuilt/replaced as a matter course with any diesel(even when new some
> diesels benifit greatly by having the injectors reset)
>
> having a bad fuel spray pattern from worn injectors can contribute to
> engine overheating

It does sound like there is something very wrong with the fuel system,
as well as the white smoke I think he said it was using 20lt/100klm
which is very excessive.

Daryl
Biggus La Great. - 05 Dec 2005 01:20 GMT
It has worked on numerous engines on exploroz members, mine included
which has 330k klms on it.

I still have the bottle of CEM on my desk here.

>BTW, if the stuff you put through your engine was flushing oil, and the
>engine survived the experience, you should go buy a lotto entry.
>
>Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines than I
>care to think about
Tony  Smith - 05 Dec 2005 06:48 GMT
> It has worked on numerous engines on exploroz members, mine included
> which has 330k klms on it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > Flushing oil into old dirty engines has caused more blown engines
> > than I care to think about

You may well be a Dill, but I doubt that you actually mistreat your
engines, you know, an oil change every 5 years or so, filters changed
slightly less regularly than that.

Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to
question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway, particularly a
diesel. Still people believe in all kinds of silly things.

Anyway, take one well abused engine that is chock full of crud. Add a
bottle of flushing oil which jumps right in and gets all that crud
loose and moving.

Ten seconds later you have total lubrication failure, or alternatively
the bypass kicks in and you send all that now nicely suspended crud
straight through your bearings with rather predictable and inevitable
results...

That's why you don't use flushing oil, because if your engine needs it,
the "flush" stands a fair chance of destroying it.

Signature

Tony Smith

Biggus La Great. - 05 Dec 2005 09:05 GMT
>Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to
>question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway, particularly a
>diesel. Still people believe in all kinds of silly things.
If you buy a truck second hand how the f.ck do you know whats happened
for the last X kmls?
Tony  Smith - 05 Dec 2005 09:11 GMT
> > Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to
> > question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway,
> > particularly a diesel. Still people believe in all kinds of silly
> > things.
> If you buy a truck second hand how the f.ck do you know whats happened
> for the last X kmls?

Well, if you have half a brain, you don't stick flushing oil in it do
you......

What you do is lift the tappet covers, perhaps even drop the sump,
maybe even hire a borescope and stick it down it's throat and have a
look.

Mind you, you need a brain to do those things.

And, by the way, you might like to tell us all how sticking a bottle of
flushing oil down its throat tells you "the f.ck whats happened for the
last X kmls?" to mildly misquote your own apparent assertion.

Those cars aren't talking to you again are they Biggus?
Signature


Tony Smith

Biggus La Great. - 05 Dec 2005 11:03 GMT
>Well, if you have half a brain, you don't stick flushing oil in it do
>you......
If you had a 10th of a brain you would be dangerous.
Of course you flush an engine with an engine flush, you dont use Coke
do you?
Same as you do with the coolant, and others. Anyone with a brain would
flush and change all fluids when they buy second hand vehicles. Still
with us?

>What you do is lift the tappet covers, perhaps even drop the sump,
>maybe even hire a borescope and stick it down it's throat and have a
>look.
or just flush the oil.

>Mind you, you need a brain to do those things.
How the f.ck would you know?

>And, by the way, you might like to tell us all how sticking a bottle of
>flushing oil down its throat tells you "the f.ck whats happened for the
>last X kmls?" to mildly misquote your own apparent assertion.
It shows you how much sludge is in the oil, this way you can tell how
often the oil has been changed. But that would be beyond your capacity
wouldnt it?

if you want to be serious you send some oil away for testing, but as I
found out while working for a place that makes the sh.t, and tests it
it doesnt always tell everything you need to know.
Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 12:13 GMT
>>Well, if you have half a brain, you don't stick flushing oil in it do
>>you......
> If you had a 10th of a brain you would be dangerous.
> Of course you flush an engine with an engine flush, you dont use Coke
> do you?

You know your biggest problem biggus?

No of course you don't, so I'll tell you.

You are too stupid, to begin to comprehend how stupid you actually are.

It's a kind of protection thingy that nature/evolution  provides the truly
stupid with, else they start throwing themselves off cliffs or under
trains or something.

Just go back and talk to your car Biggus, they probably make about as much
sense as you do.

If you don't like the FACT that flushing oil is a crock of sh.t, you can
always go set fire to yourself in protest or something.

Tony Smith
Barnsey - 05 Dec 2005 11:03 GMT
>> > Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to
>> > question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Those cars aren't talking to you again are they Biggus?

<grave dig>

What if it's an imported Surf?

LOL!
Tony  Smith - 05 Dec 2005 12:42 GMT
> <grave dig>
>
> What if it's an imported Surf?
>
> LOL!

Barnsey, in a nutshell that's the problem.

It doesn't matter whether the engin e in question is in an imported
Toyota Surf, a Nissan Patrol, or a bloody Volga or Tatra.

Nor does it matter whether or not the engine in question is a diesel, a
petrol or a blasted stirling engine.

They all obey the same laws of physics.

Some of those laws mean things like:-

An additive you tip in your oil cannot stop your engine overheating.

Another says, that if you suddenly strip off years of accumulated crud
off the inside of your engine by putting "flushing oil" down its
throat, that crud has to go somewhere else. If there is enough of it to
clog your filter (always assuming your engine has a full flow filter)
and the bypass operates, that crud is going to go into every wiping
surface in your engine and work just like grinding paste, with exactly
the same results.

The gullibility of some people surprises me, the boundless stupidity of
others astounds.
Rainbow Warrior - 05 Dec 2005 13:52 GMT
>> <grave dig>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> The gullibility of some people surprises me, the boundless stupidity of
> others astounds.

No bypass in any of the filters I've seen, I suspect flow just stops if they
got clogged, of course you could change the filter when you dump the
flushing oil.

I prefer to just keep doing oil changes with little time between, basically
as soon as the oil discolours, till eventually it stays clean for most of
the 5000km.
Scotty - 05 Dec 2005 20:11 GMT
>> Those cars aren't talking to you again are they Biggus?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> LOL!

Well you will have years and years of endless fun and reliability and
boiling/overheating wont be an issue then eh.

Oh okay, oil chnages as well if you must be pedantic
Tony Smith - 05 Dec 2005 22:32 GMT
> Well you will have years and years of endless fun and reliability and
> boiling/overheating wont be an issue then eh.

Sadly, the cooling system of the 2L-TE engined surf is just adequate when
the entire cooling system is in perfect working condition.

I know all too well from participation on the Surf lists that chasing
rainbows, magic potions and faith healing will not cure overheating....

> Oh okay, oil chnages as well if you must be pedantic

I'm waiting for someone to point out that given the characteristics of
diesel oil that the institution of regular oil changes alone will rapidly
"de-crud" a mistreated engine, but do it in a way less likely to cause
harm than suddenly causing every last bit of "crud" to become mobile.

And yes, idling an engine for 20 minutes with a sump full of diesel will
probably not of itself cause problems, indeed the average well worn engine
would happily idle all day with NO oil in it.

The possibility for harm is that if enough crud is freed so that the
filter becomes clogged which then leads to one of two things.

If no bypass, then probably no foul-no harm because the crud didn't go
through the engine.

If a pressure bypass, or worse a non full-flow filtration system, then
you are sending the crud through the lubrication system, which as I said,
is like feeding it grinding paste.

Hence my original comment of buying a Lotto ticket if the engine survives
the experience.

Late last night I was looking through my emails and I found one sent to me
by one of the team who flew a Neptune out of Davis Montham in the US to
Australia in the late 80s.

The aircraft had sat idle (though "inhibited") since the late 60s or early
70s. After putting penetrating oil down the bores to free things up, they
dumped the oil in the tanks and refilled with a somewhat lighter oil than
the engines (R3350) would normally use (advice was sought from the
manufacturer) and after all filters were changed, they fired up the
engines, which were then run at varying speeds for 30 minutes. Oil was
then dumped and filters changed (at nearly US $1k per engine + whatever
around 40 gallons of oil per engine costs).

At that point, the correct oil was installed and the engines ground run
(again for a relatively short period of time due to the fact that the
buggers tend to overheat on the ground) prior to a brief flight. After
that flight the filters were sent for sectioning and analysis, mainly to
see if there was metal present, and if so what type, and also to check for
other chemical or particulate presence.

When all was found to be well, new filters were fitted, oil topped up and
they did some longer test flights prior to flying from West coast USA to
Hawaii and then to Townsville, Australia.

Whilst they had numerous electrical and other malfunctions, the one thing
they never worried about were the engines because they had approached the
issue of engines in largely unknown condition, that had sat idle for a
couple of decades in an intelligent, planned way designed to both not
harm the engine and give them definitive information about what was going
on inside them.

I wonder if they would have had the confidence to do two very long
over-water flights if they had just bunged in some "flushing oil", then
done an oil change, pumped up the tyres, filled the tanks and launched
into the sky. More to the point, I wonder if they would have been aviators
or swimmers.

Tony Smith
D Walford - 06 Dec 2005 07:38 GMT
>>Mind you, if you take reasonable care of your engine, it's open to
>>question why you would bother with flushing oil anyway, particularly a
>>diesel. Still people believe in all kinds of silly things.
>
> If you buy a truck second hand how the f.ck do you know whats happened
> for the last X kmls?

You don't but I agree that flushing oil is a bad idea.
Whenever I buy a sh vehicle I change the oil ASAP, change it again after
2500klms then again after another 5000klms before going to normal oil
change intervals.

Daryl
Scotty - 05 Dec 2005 20:09 GMT
> That's why you don't use flushing oil, because if your engine needs it,
> the "flush" stands a fair chance of destroying it.

I took my old car to a mechanic years ago (before I knew how) and he dropped
the oil and added 4 litres of deisel into the sump and ran on idle for
around 20 seconds. Drained that and it flushed the motor of all its shitty
oil.

Never reved it above idle and once drained the sludge and deisel (which he
left for 20min or so) filled with oil and a new filter. Would this damage
the motor at idle?
Barnsey - 05 Dec 2005 20:50 GMT
>> That's why you don't use flushing oil, because if your engine needs it,
>> the "flush" stands a fair chance of destroying it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> left for 20min or so) filled with oil and a new filter. Would this damage
> the motor at idle?

I'm trying to think back to when I had my 91 Subaru with a stuck lifter. I
was advised to do the same as above, or something similar. I tried a few
additives too, but cant remember what they were.  The alternative was new
lifters for $1500, or something outrageous like that.

In the end, a collision with a cow fixed the problem of owning a Subaru in
the first place.
Biggus La Great. - 05 Dec 2005 22:38 GMT
Dont talk logic the fool will blow a seal. If he hasnt done it or
invented the idea its horse sh.t in his foolish eyes..

Killfiles are a great thing.

>I took my old car to a mechanic years ago (before I knew how) and he dropped
>the oil and added 4 litres of deisel into the sump and ran on idle for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>left for 20min or so) filled with oil and a new filter. Would this damage
>the motor at idle?
Tony  Smith - 05 Dec 2005 23:16 GMT
> Dont talk logic the fool will blow a seal. If he hasnt done it or
> invented the idea its horse sh.t in his foolish eyes..

The only fool to blow a seal when presented with logic Bigarse, is you.
Again and again....

The only person to spout "horseshit" instead of fact is you Bogus.
Again and again.

> Killfiles are a great thing.

They are indeed, however on the off chance you are smart enough to
figure out how to set one up, you lack the courage to use it..

Tony Smith
Kev - 06 Dec 2005 20:12 GMT
> > That's why you don't use flushing oil, because if your engine needs it,
> > the "flush" stands a fair chance of destroying it.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> left for 20min or so) filled with oil and a new filter. Would this damage
> the motor at idle?

Yes if the goose didn't then flush all the diesel from the engine with
new oil then change that after running the engine for a few mins
a bit of diesel left in the oil galleries and the oil pump can stuff the
new oil

Kev
Figjam aka Biggus dickus - 07 Dec 2005 06:02 GMT
IAWBigK

> Yes if the goose didn't then flush all the diesel from the engine with
> new oil then change that after running the engine for a few mins
> a bit of diesel left in the oil galleries and the oil pump can stuff the
> new oil
>
> Kev
Rainbow Warrior - 07 Dec 2005 10:02 GMT
> IAWBigK

IDUWTFTSF

>> Yes if the goose didn't then flush all the diesel from the engine with
>> new oil then change that after running the engine for a few mins
>> a bit of diesel left in the oil galleries and the oil pump can stuff the
>> new oil
>>
>> Kev
Ezookiel/Trentus - 07 Dec 2005 12:20 GMT
>> IAWBigK

I think it stood for

I
A gree
W ith
Big
Kev

> IDUWTFTSF

I assume yours stood for

I
D on't
U nderstand
W hat
T he
F rock
T hat
S tood
F or

Zook
Rainbow Warrior - 07 Dec 2005 13:09 GMT
>>> IAWBigK
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Zook

Se internet chat is so easy to pick up :)
Figjam aka Biggus dickus - 08 Dec 2005 06:40 GMT
Correct!

Fig

>>> IAWBigK
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Zook
Rainbow Warrior - 08 Dec 2005 08:56 GMT
IGTASO

> Correct!
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>>
>> Zook
 
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