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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (Australian group) / December 2005Which 4X4
Hi Guys. I recently looked at a number of 4x4's to replace our ageing 1986 MQ 4.2L Nissan Patrol Turbo Diesel. I came up with 3 possible options and would like to ask your honest opinion on them, especially if someone has first hand knowledge. 1) Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited Edition, 1999 model with 4.7L V8 2) Land Rover Discovery 5 cylinder Turbo Diesel, 1999 model. 3) Nissan Patrol 3L Turbo Diesel, 2000 model. Any pros or cons I should be aware of? Garry I realy couldnt tell you about jeeps or landrovers but i have seen and heard that the 3lt turbo datsuns are suposed to be pretty good. Fig > Hi Guys. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Garry >3) Nissan Patrol 3L Turbo Diesel, 2000 model. Google for blown engines, holes in pistons, and loads more on these. > Hi Guys. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Garry 1) They're not known as "heaps" for nothing 2) You're not seriously considering a machine that spends most of its time in a garage ? 3) Whoa ! Are these the ones that motors blow up in somewhet frequently ? Yes, you can get a good one in 1 2 and 3. But are you willing to take that risk ? Google around and see what you think. Cheers Jim > 1) They're not known as "heaps" for nothing Thanks Jim. But why are they known as heaps? What are some of the known problems? > 2) You're not seriously considering a machine that spends most of its time > in a garage ? I heard that some of the earlier petrol models had serious problems,but not the later model and especially not the 5 cylinder Tirbo Diesels?? > 3) Whoa ! Are these the ones that motors blow up in somewhet frequently ? Now that is one story I am hearing a lot about!!! Thanks for your advice Garry I know of someone (friend-of-a-friend, only 2 degrees of separation) who returned their apparently Friday-afternoon-built Grand Cherokee after 5 months, most of that spent in the dealer's workshop. They got to drive it a total of 3 weeks, IIRC. Final straw was when the electric driver's seat started pressing them into the steering wheel whilst driving down the road- without being asked. Of course, all makes have the odd lemon or two. >> 1) They're not known as "heaps" for nothing > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Garry > Hi Guys. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Garry Go the 4.2 Patrol diesel/turbo diesel, proven motor & unbreakable driveline since 1988. And your tyres / rims / roof rack and some other stuff will swap straight over to the new vehicle. 3 litres & 2.8 turbo diesels had weaker clutches & gearboxes. I don't think MQ's came out with the 4.2 diesel, 3.3 diesel/turbo diesel was the factory donk. > Hi Guys. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Garry I can't actually comment on the specific models you mentioned, but I'd like to make the following questions / comments: In relation to the Jeep, where are you likely to go. If the fuel consumption of the 4.7 litre Jeep engine is anything like other large petrol engined 4WDs, it could be quite thirsty. Not only does that affect your running cost with the price of petrol as it is now; it also decreases your range. I've never owned or driven a Jeep, so they could be reasonably fuel efficient. I'd just suggest making sure of that before I bought one. Regarding the Discovery, I had a 1998 Discovery 300TDi. That's the 4 cyl diesel engine. I bought it in 1999 and traded it in March of this year. Contrary to what has been said in other posts, Discoveries don't spend most of their time in garages. I'm sure people could find stories of Discoveries which were lemons, but you could do the same for any car. I had to replace both rear window regulators in mine at $200 a pop. Just after I replaced them, of course, I was put in contact with someone who makes replacements for the 20 cent plastic rings which break and cause the problem. An air conditioning fanbelt snapped and the rubber mat on the base of the driver's seat broke. I don't think there was anything else major. I'd have another Discovery tomorrow. The only reason I didn't was that I got a really good deal on the car I have now. As for the Patrol, there was an issue with early 3.0 litre diesel engines, but I can't remember what it was. If you search for a Nissan Patrol owner's group, you could talk to the owners first hand about that issue, how it was resolved, and how to identify the particular vehicles involved. My current vehicle is a 2005 Patrol and I'm happy with it. Ive also had no probs with my 96 discovery 300tdi, but I have heard of issues with early models td5s as plastic dowels were used to locate the head and thus were very susceptible to major expensive damage in the event of any sort of overheating. 2000 3.0ltr patrols also had engine problems as others have said, if you havent heard of any of this stuff you really need to do more research before throwing out a general question like this. > > Hi Guys. > > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > issue, how it was resolved, and how to identify the particular vehicles > involved. My current vehicle is a 2005 Patrol and I'm happy with it. > Regarding the Discovery, I had a 1998 Discovery 300TDi. That's the 4 cyl > diesel engine. I bought it in 1999 and traded it in March of this year. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > major. I'd have another Discovery tomorrow. The only reason I didn't was > that I got a really good deal on the car I have now. Hmm...so a huge numeber of Discos haven't been dumped by their owners because of upkeep ? Strange how the second hand prices have remained rock bottom. Almost every Disco owner that I've known (and that's a few) has gone to the "dark side". There have been numerous court cases against the manufacturer, one of which I'm quite familiar with. It also comes in for some stick from quite a few unhappy owners, I've yet to find a modern 4wd that people grumble more about....except perhaps the 3l Nissans. (Ford "Exploders" ?) http://www.haveyoursay.com/ http://www.carsurvey.org/model_Land+Rover_Discovery.html http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dave/personal/disco.htm One good experience would certainly not make me buy one, unless I was best buddies with a mechanic. I suppose the good bit is that you'd never lose one...just follow the oil track :)) >>Regarding the Discovery, I had a 1998 Discovery 300TDi. That's the 4 cyl >>diesel engine. I bought it in 1999 and traded it in March of this year. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I suppose the good bit is that you'd never lose one...just follow the oil > track :)) I worked for Ford as a mechanic and at that time the current Falcon had 15 in service fault rectifications and 7 bring your car in for a fix ASAP faults. I also worked as a mechanic for Jaguar Rover Aus and I can honestly say the the amount of warranty claims on Jaguar,Rover (Land,Range and saloon) combined would not exceed the single amount of claims against the Falcon alone. Most of my 4x4's have been Rover (Land and Range) ranging from the early Ser1 bone rattlers through to my now Ser11 Disco 4.0 V8 that I have owned for near a year now now with not a failure of any sort (touch wood). I have done 2 round Aus trips, both in ser 11 Landie's one short and the other long wheel base. The shorty limped home after 4 months with just about every bolt loose but not one single break down and never once refused to start. The long wheel base broke several axles and lost reverse after backing out of a deep bog, fully loaded, but got us home after 3 months. My current Disco goes to the beach and into the mountains regularly, it is comfortable has plenty of grunt and very good off road standard. I wouldn't part with it for anything else of the same vintage. Those links you supplied show just a small amount of dissatisfied owners in the realm of things. You say you know a few dissatisfied previous owners, guess what I know a *lot* of owners that wouldn't part with theirs. Do you really believe that other manufacturers 4x4's are trouble free and cheap on the up keep....you'd be dreaming right. Leo...from the bright side. >>Regarding the Discovery, I had a 1998 Discovery 300TDi. That's the 4 cyl >>diesel engine. I bought it in 1999 and traded it in March of this year. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I suppose the good bit is that you'd never lose one...just follow the oil > track :)) Well I think you're missing out then. My comments were based on my own personal experience. As I said, I'd have another one tomorrow. Your experience has obviously been different to mine. So far I have heard that I should not touch the 3L Nissan Turbo Diesel has they have a major issue with engine parts. The Landrover Discovery I thought would certainly bring on some debate as I think people either love them or loath them. I understand about the oil leak issues as I have had a number of Rover cars and I am yet to find one that does not leak any oil. I know there was also one particular year model that had, or was supposed to have had, a major recall or problem and that you should not touch that model Discovery. But I don't think that was the 1999 model was it? Is there any thing major that is a concern or a known problem with the 1999 5 cylinder Turbo Diesel Discoveries? Finally a few have bagged the Jeep Grand Cherokee (1999 model) without being very specific on the problems. I read some of the links to other people's problems but they are all US complaints and there is no obvious common problem or trend. I am not sure how many models are sold in the USA but I would imagine there would be quite a lot which would also mean some % of dissatisfaction, as with any vehicle. Are there any genuine, well known faults with the above 4WD's and what would they be? By the way, I am not interested in going bush bashing, but do intend travelling on some outback roads etc where a 4WD would be a good safety feature. I do intend towing a large boat though, weighing in at around 1,800kgs. Perhaps I should stick with our current Toyotal Landcruiser Prado (96 RV) and our 86 MQ Nissan Patrol Turbo Diesel? Garry I think your right. either that or stick to the 4.2 GU. >Perhaps I should stick with our current Toyotal Landcruiser Prado (96 RV) >and our 86 MQ Nissan Patrol Turbo Diesel? > >Garry G > Perhaps I should stick with our current Toyotal Landcruiser Prado (96 RV) > and our 86 MQ Nissan Patrol Turbo Diesel? You have a Toyota(not a real cruiser but close) and a Nissan and you are thinking of going backwards and getting a Rover or Jeep? Madness Kev > G > > Perhaps I should stick with our current Toyotal Landcruiser Prado (96 RV) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Kev I think the Prado does a pretty good job from what I've seen of them. Why not get a newer one? Chris > Hi Guys. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Garry Spend a few thousand on what you've got and keep it. I had the SD33TD and wish I never sold it. I now have a GQ TD, and I reckon the MK was a better 4by. >> Hi Guys. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I had the SD33TD and wish I never sold it. I now have a GQ TD, and I > reckon the MK was a better 4by. ????????????????????? MQ/MK is tough but the GQ is tougher again. And coil suspesion kicks arse for comfort & offroad flex, better than the old cart springs. >> Spend a few thousand on what you've got and keep it. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > MQ/MK is tough but the GQ is tougher again. And coil suspesion kicks arse > for comfort & offroad flex, better than the old cart springs. Yeah, I've got a short memory about the suspension. I'm thinking more about the SD33T motor and gearbox. It's much better than the 2.8 TD I've got now. >>> Spend a few thousand on what you've got and keep it. >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > about the SD33T motor and gearbox. It's much better than the 2.8 TD I've > got now. Oh, you brought a cheapy Patrol with the downgraded driveline pack. Would have been better with a TB42 Petrol >>>> Spend a few thousand on what you've got and keep it. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Oh, you brought a cheapy Patrol with the downgraded driveline pack. Would > have been better with a TB42 Petrol Go on then, flame away! I was driving an 84 2.6 Pajero with a stuffed gear box at the time.........maybe it was a spontaneous purchase, but I'm still pretty pleased with it. it's still immaculate. I've just clocked up it's 110,000 Ks last week end with a trip to the Tablelands.......(another story) . I've driven a 4.2, and it's not bad at all. Even better still, is one with a turbo bunged on, or better than that still, a Townsville local has one with a super charger on it. It scares the AJ's in their SS utes, XR6s etc with drags from the lights, and does great things off road too. If I had nothing else to spend my $ on, I'd bung on an intercooler and a decent exhaust, and then I reckon it would be really nice. My mates got that driveline in a GU, and it goes very well. Anyway, back to the original question......... I say stick with the sheep. Buy a Patrol or a Toyo. I don't know who the bloke selling the GU is in this newsgroup, but I reckon his rig would be a good buy, even though it's a petrol. >>>>> Spend a few thousand on what you've got and keep it. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> > Go on then, flame away! LOL (sorry should have added a smiley to the end) Yeah the TB42/45 TD42's are the best donks in Patrols, though I consider Chev ok too. The petrols do have some head corrosion issues though, if you don't keep inhibitor/coolant in them. I've heard so many story's of clutches /gearbox failures in the 3litre petrols & 2.8 diesels, the ol skyline box just isn't up to the task. Some of the early 3 litre diesels also used it. I have heard the early 4.2 boxes are the best because Nissan went cheap later on 5th gear bearings, so they don't like towing. Mines got 350,000km on it, slam it through the gears regularly, even pulled a mangled 90mm diametre circlip out of the drain plug 2 years ago, I think it's the 5th gear syncro retainer, it's crunched a bit changing to 5th ever since. "Garry Beattie" <gjbeattie@iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:... >> 1) They're not known as "heaps" for nothing > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Garry > Hi Guys. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Garry Well I certainly brought out the Landrover fanatics, didn't I ? :) I wasn't trying to bag particular makers but rather to answer the question to the best of my ability and experience, for what 40 years of 4wding is worth. As I said, you can get good ones and lemons. Unless you are buying new, and sometimes even then, it's a gamble. Just a few of the stories that influenced my reply. Told a guy, don't buy a Jeep, he ignored my advice and bought one. Kept it just long enough to get rid of it, he had a list of complaints and expenditures as long as your arm. They started with the cat converter and water rushing out of the chassis after light rain ! Oh and a sloshing sound inside the doors. A certain polly bought a new Disco years ago before he went to the dark side :) He ended up sueing Landrover as he claims that it was basically unsafe under certain hill climb conditions. (nearly killed himself and family). He got a Nissan, no more worries. My daughter's friend bought a new Disco, he was in love with it until the number of breakdowns exceeded his capacity to pay for the repairs. Personally I like the look of the Disco, but I'm lothe to pull a trailer to put my essentials in :) Met a convoy of them on the Gary Junction track, they were doing well. I passed them later as they were doing "running repairs". Now they are isolated cases, but I do have a fairly extensive ear to the ground ("ear, ear") on 4wd matters, and my opinions , whilst shaped by the experience of others, are only opinions. If your experiences are different then I'm happy for you. Cheers Jim > Now they are isolated cases, but I do have a fairly extensive ear to the > ground ("ear, ear") on 4wd matters, and my opinions , whilst shaped by the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Cheers > Jim And I certainly appreciate your opinions Jim. And everyone else's for that matter. It looks like the finger is firmly being pointed at the Nissan Patrol GU 4.2L TD as the best replacement although I still love the comfort and feel of the Jeep Grand Cherokee. The power behind that 4.7 V8 was just awesome when I took it for a test drive, but I worry about the negative comments I have heard and also the NRMA test showing fuel consumption of 17/100 as opposed to their Discovery test of 9/100. My Prado and Nissan both get roughly the same economy of about 13/100. The Prado being petrol and the Nissan diesel. Best regards Garry >> Now they are isolated cases, but I do have a fairly extensive ear to the >> ground ("ear, ear") on 4wd matters, and my opinions , whilst shaped by [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Garry The post above for the GU for sale looks good. If you're in Brissy, have a look at it. > The post above for the GU for sale looks good. If you're in Brissy, have a > look at it. Yes, it does. I am not that far from Brisbane. We are about 4 hours drive north of Brisbane. Trouble is I don't think he would want to trade in a Prado or MQ Patrol in the deal!! Garry I don't know how much you want to spend a friend was looking in " Carsales .com " at 2000-2002 landcruiser 4.2 TD some in NSW and some in QLD all looked in good nick and low K's all manuals for around $42-50 G's, can't go past a cruiser. > Hi Guys. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Garry >I don't know how much you want to spend a friend was looking in " Carsales >.com " at 2000-2002 landcruiser 4.2 TD some in NSW and some in QLD all >looked in good nick and low K's all manuals for around $42-50 G's, can't go >past a cruiser. Yeah. I think I may tend to agree with you and Chris and stick with a Toyota, but possibly upgrade to a Land Cruiser. The Prado is very nice and very comfortable, but I also like the old fashioned feel of a big car underneath me. Plus I also believe that the Land Cruiser would be better for towing, especially the 4.2L TD. Garry > >I don't know how much you want to spend a friend was looking in " Carsales > >.com " at 2000-2002 landcruiser 4.2 TD some in NSW and some in QLD all [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Garry Garry, I just picked up an 05 Pathfinder ST-L in turbo diesel. Haven't got it off-road yet as it's only got 1000kms on the clock, but it's got plenty of space and is actually a nice car to get around the city in too. Fuel consumption's good and it has oodles of torque. Has limited range due to the 80L tank so I'll need a few jerries, and it could also do with a bit more height, but lined up against the Prado (of equal value), it fairs very well. Just a thought - may not suit your circumstances as well as it did mine. Chris > Garry, I just picked up an 05 Pathfinder ST-L in turbo diesel. Haven't > got [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Chris Thanks Chris. How would the suspension go towing about 1800kg worth of boat behind? It may be worth looking into. Garry > > Garry, I just picked up an 05 Pathfinder ST-L in turbo diesel. Haven't > > got [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Garry Garry, both petrol and diesel are rated at 3000kg towing capacity. I always allow for a bit of a margin though so would probably not go over 2500kg (that's just me :-)). An 1800kg boat should be fine. Chris Chris > Garry, both petrol and diesel are rated at 3000kg towing capacity. I > always > allow for a bit of a margin though so would probably not go over 2500kg > (that's just me :-)). An 1800kg boat should be fine. > > Chris I always look at the ball rating as it should be 10% of the towing rate, some of the smaller 4x4 and soft roaders rate the tow weight at 3000 kg but ball rate at 250 kg, in this case I would not tow over 2000 kg I always leave a bit spare. >> Garry, both petrol and diesel are rated at 3000kg towing capacity. I >> always [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but ball rate at 250 kg, in this case I would not tow over 2000 kg I > always leave a bit spare. I think there are also a lot of other factors to consider too. I used to tow the boat with a Ford Fairlane. It was rated at 2500kg. It towed the boat OK, but was not very good at it. The engine and car were OK but the suspension was way too soft and the boat used to bounce the car up and down. Anything over 70km/h and the boat used to start swaying. That was when I purchased the Nissan Patrol MQ Turbo Diesel. It also has the capacity of 2500kg but the boat just sits on it and behaves itself. No bouncing, certainly no swaying. 110km/h on the highway is no problems at all. (Until the cops come along anyway!!) Garry > >> Garry, both petrol and diesel are rated at 3000kg towing capacity. I > >> always [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Garry Yeah, I never have a need to tow anything as heavy as your boat so I really cannot comment on the performance of the diesel Pathfinder. Maybe someone else on the Pathfinder Club of Australia site would have some info on it. Chris to tow anything heavy you need a heavy vehicle, sure the lighter ones are rated to tow heavy but they are the ones where the trailer is in control not you thats something you don't want Kev > >> Garry, both petrol and diesel are rated at 3000kg towing capacity. I > >> always [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Garry > to tow anything heavy you need a heavy vehicle, sure the lighter ones > are rated to tow heavy but they are the ones where the trailer is in > control not you > thats something you don't want > > Kev I agree totally and that is why I got rid of the Fairlane. It was certainly the tail wagging the dog with that one!! I have decided to wait for a good Cruiser or Nissan 4.2TD to come along. No hurry! Garry No such thing as a good datsun but yeah anyway :) > I agree totally and that is why I got rid of the Fairlane. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Garry Well, no such thing as a good, cheap, Nissan. > No such thing as a good datsun but yeah anyway > :) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Garry correction,...........datsun > Well, no such thing as a good, cheap, Nissan. > correction,...........datsun > >> Well, no such thing as a good, cheap, Nissan. Tha names not been used for years. I remember my old Datsun/Nissan Bluebird (1985 I think it was). Had some Nissan badges and some Datsun. >No such thing as a good datsun but yeah anyway > :) You dont think that the 180 Fairlady was any good? Or the ole faithful Datsun 1600? Or the turbo Bluebird? > Or the ole faithful Datsun 1600? The old 510 was one of the best cars ever made. Took nothing to make them into a great offroad car, adn they were more than capable as a daily driver. > to tow anything heavy you need a heavy vehicle, sure the lighter ones > are rated to tow heavy but they are the ones where the trailer is in > control not you > thats something you don't want > > Kev For the purposes of that comparison (Pathfinder and Patrol), the Pathy weighs in at 2.2 tonne and the Patrol, nearly 2.5 tonne. Chris > For the purposes of that comparison (Pathfinder and Patrol), the Pathy > weighs in at 2.2 tonne and the Patrol, nearly 2.5 tonne. > > Chris Any idea what a Prado weighs? >> For the purposes of that comparison (Pathfinder and Patrol), the Pathy >> weighs in at 2.2 tonne and the Patrol, nearly 2.5 tonne. >> >> Chris > > Any idea what a Prado weighs? A lot playdow's are generaly not that weighty as kids wouldn be able to lift them >> Any idea what a Prado weighs? > > A lot > > For the purposes of that comparison (Pathfinder and Patrol), the Pathy > > weighs in at 2.2 tonne and the Patrol, nearly 2.5 tonne. > > > > Chris > > Any idea what a Prado weighs? Between 2.0 and 2.2 tonne for the Prado. GVM on both Pathfinder and Prado are 2.9 tonne while the Patrol is 3.0-3.1 tonne. I'm comparing the ST-L range on both Nissans and the GXL turbo diesel on the Prado. Prado and Pathfinder are a similar size/class of 4WD. The Patrol's a little bit bigger. Chris Friggin hell the Pathfinder which started out as a wagon version of the Navara that weighed around 1 1/2 tonne has really put on some weight to get over 2 tonnes Kev This thread is giving me the f.cking sh.ts. Buy a f.cking Patrol and shut the f.ck up. (Excuse the f.cking french) > This thread is giving me the f.cking sh.ts. > > Buy a f.cking Patrol and shut the f.ck up. > > (Excuse the f.cking french) Wait until next year. It's supposed to be getting a more efficient CRD turbo diesel in it (completely new model rather than just a facelift). Chris They have been saying that for fuckin yrs.. There is no new model next year. It was just released in last 6 mths the updated model. it will be 2-3 yrs until the next update. >Wait until next year. It's supposed to be getting a more efficient CRD >turbo diesel in it (completely new model rather than just a facelift). > >Chris Yeah you might be right :/ Chris > They have been saying that for fuckin yrs.. There is no new model > next year. It was just released in last 6 mths the updated model. it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > >Chris > Friggin hell > the Pathfinder which started out as a wagon version of the Navara that > weighed around 1 1/2 tonne has really put on some weight to get over 2 > tonnes > > Kev Yeah... wouldn't have been interested in one if it was still as small as it used to be. Chris > > Friggin hell > > the Pathfinder which started out as a wagon version of the Navara that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Yeah... wouldn't have been interested in one if it was still as small as it > used to be. I doubt they are any bigger just heavier, slower and thirstier why would you bother the Patrol is only a few thousand more and you get a shitload better vehicle Kev > > > Friggin hell > > > the Pathfinder which started out as a wagon version of the Navara that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I doubt they are any bigger > just heavier, slower and thirstier As I said, I wouldn't have ben interested in one if it was still as small as it used to be. They are a lot bigger. Go look. The older Pathfinders look like mid-sized station wagons compared to the new one. Line one up next to a Patrol... there's not much in it. The CRD diesel's a very nice engine and is much more efficient than the older model. The new ones get 7 seats and the old ones have 5. > why would you bother > the Patrol is only a few thousand more and you get a shitload better > vehicle It's not that much bigger (a bit wider), it's cruder, a little taller, but it uses a SHITLOAD more petrol. No thanks. There's no doubt it's a proven beast offroad, but since 85% of its use will be on-road, I can do without the 20-23L/100km fuel consumption for a 4WD that doesn't offer that much more of anything. This compared to 12.5L/100km. Chris > Kev >As I said, I wouldn't have ben interested in one if it was still as small as >it used to be. They are a lot bigger. Go look. Picked up the wifes from 2001 pathy from gary lectie nissan frankston today, parked near a GU, its nowhere near the GU, which on the other side of GU was a black (they all seem black most Ive seen anwyay) new Pathy which is heaps smaller than a GU > >As I said, I wouldn't have ben interested in one if it was still as small as > >it used to be. They are a lot bigger. Go look. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > side of GU was a black (they all seem black most Ive seen anwyay) new > Pathy which is heaps smaller than a GU "Heaps" smaller hey? I had mine parked next to a GU and it didn't look heaps smaller. It looked a little smaller, mostly being in width from what I could see. The official stats are: Patrol: 4.94 long, , 1.94 wide, 1.85m high Pathfinder: 4.74m long, 1.85m wide, 1.86m high 20cm is a fair bit of extra length if it were just in the boot, but it's more likely that it's in the longer nose. Height wise they're basically identical. I don't know, though, it doesn't come across as "heaps" smaller to me on those figures. Chris |
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