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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (Australian group) / March 2004First Aid kit suggestions needed
I'd like to review/replace my 4WD First Aid kit. Keeping in mind the sorts of problems we may encounter in the bush and that we may be 24+ hours from expert help would someone with knowledge in this area care to do a list of the things we should be carrying. Actually I'm thinking of putting a pack of cigarettes in mine because I've always said that if ever I were bitten by a snake that would be a damn good time to take up smoking again :) Mike Harding Mike, Check out the St John's Ambo site http://www.stjohn.org.au/ They have a good range of kits to suit most situations. And buying their kits helps support their continued good work. (BTW i'm not affiliated, just used their help in the past) H > I'd like to review/replace my 4WD First Aid kit. Keeping > in mind the sorts of problems we may encounter in the bush [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mike Harding > Actually I'm thinking of putting > a pack of cigarettes in mine because I've always said that > if ever I were bitten by a snake that would be a damn good > time to take up smoking again :) A decent small bottle of Scotch goes well with a last cigarette...... On a more serious note, in the past I've gone to the local ambulance and had a yarn to them about what might be needed to stabilise someone for a day or so. Amongst their suggestions that I adopted were single use syringes of painkillers (in a sealed box and administered under medical instruction if needed), broad spectrum antibiotics, inflatable splints and needles and silk for emergency stitching. I also got some medical grade glucose and saline base on the theory that I was not about to carry ready-use drips, but I could always boil water and make one up if needed, there are nasties that will survive a trip through boiling water, but then if you are in the sh.t deep enough to warrant a drip that is the least of your worries. I have stitched a dog up that managed to rip it's leg open jumping off a ute, which is the only time any of it was ever used in earnest, poor thing not only lived but greeted me like a long lost brother everytime I saw it after that too.... Another source for advice is the military, have a look what they carry in vehicle first aid packs. Tony Smith >> Actually I'm thinking of putting >> a pack of cigarettes in mine because I've always said that >> if ever I were bitten by a snake that would be a damn good >> time to take up smoking again :) >> >A decent small bottle of Scotch goes well with a last cigarette...... Good idea :) Actually I was thinking more of the calming effect of a cig. One of the big pluses after snake bite is to keep calm and I can just see myself lazing back enjoying my first cig. for 20 years thinking "What the hell! One or the other will kill me" :) >On a more serious note, in the past I've gone to the local ambulance and had >a yarn to them about what might be needed to stabilise someone for a day or >so. Amongst their suggestions that I adopted were single use syringes of >painkillers (in a sealed box and administered under medical instruction if >needed), broad spectrum antibiotics, inflatable splints and needles and silk >for emergency stitching. All sound like good ideas. How do you get the painkillers/antibiotics off prescription and how do you keep the antibiotics fresh for long periods? >Another source for advice is the military, have a look what they carry in >vehicle first aid packs. Good idea and one I should have thought of - I'll check that one out. Mike Harding > All sound like good ideas. How do you get the painkillers/antibiotics > off prescription and how do you keep the antibiotics fresh for long > periods? When we lived in a remote area I used to simply go to Dr. in Cairns on our periodic visits here and get scripts for broad spectrum stuff. We used to also keep a reasonable quantity of codeine, it was issued, along with the peth preloaded syringes in a sealed box marked "open on medical instruction only". I used the codeine when I had to drive from Bamaga to Iron Range to have an abcess under a tooth dealt with. Me, the codeine, and the Landrover had a whale of a time..........Saw things on that trip I've never seen before or since..... > >Another source for advice is the military, have a look what they carry in > >vehicle first aid packs. > > Good idea and one I should have thought of - I'll check that one > out. You can probably omit the stuff for dealing with frag wounds :-) Actually I have another dumb idea. Talk to the Flying Doc, they make up emergency packs that they leave sealed at various stations. Way more than you are going to carry in a 4wd but some of it might be useful. Just remembered something else we used to carry:- tincture of opium. Thing is, if you get a really good dose of "Bali belly" nothing other than this stuff is going to bind you up. In FNQ, as you probably know, a truly good dose of the runs will dehydrate you to a very dangerous level in well under 24 hours and such nasties are frequently accompanied by a total inability to keep anything down (hence the saline/glucose drips). Got put onto this years ago by a fellow student who had muscular dystrophy (poor bugger probably long dead now given the short life expectancy for males) he used to use tincture of Opium in very mild doses to impose an external "regulation" on a function he otherwise had little control of. The amount required is bugger all and the total amount in the dispensed bottle is insufficient to give you even a mild opium "buzz", it's buffered in alcohol and lasts forever. Tony Smith >Just remembered something else we used to carry:- tincture of opium. An important correction, it's not "tincture of opium" it's "camphorated tincture of opium." http://www.ismp.org/MSAarticles/recruting.htm Interesting one, I usually keep Lomotil and/or Imodium in the kit for that sort of issue, I wasn't aware of "camphorated tincture of opium" I'll check it out with the chemist, but I guess it's a prescription drug. And, as you say, with a good dose of D & V you can dehydrate very quickly. Stemetil is a useful antiemetic (stop the vomiting) for the same situation, it's on prescription but no reason why your quack should not issue one "just in case" and it's in tablet form too so keeps for ever. I also have some morphine (from a back injury) which is about two years old now - it's in a syrup and mixes with water before use - anyone know how long it lasts for, even if the strength reduces? Come on guys, you lot must have your own little tips too, how about sharing them? Mike Harding > >Just remembered something else we used to carry:- tincture of opium. > > An important correction, it's not "tincture of opium" it's > "camphorated tincture of opium." > http://www.ismp.org/MSAarticles/recruting.htm Mike, thanks for that....I never knew, and you must haver been keen to "check up" to have looked that far into it. I know about thing like Lomotil, immodium and the like. The thing they lack is the instant effect of "camphorated tincture of opium." which has to be seen (experienced?) to be believed.... > Stemetil is a useful antiemetic (stop the vomiting) for the same > situation, it's on prescription but no reason why your quack > should not issue one "just in case" and it's in tablet form too > so keeps for ever. I tried to get some a couple of years back and was told that it is no longer available, was given Maxelolon instead which seemed to be no where as effective. Mind you I didn't get the cold shivers and shakes after taking it either. Tony Smith >> >Just remembered something else we used to carry:- tincture of opium. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Mike, thanks for that....I never knew, and you must haver been keen to >"check up" to have looked that far into it. I'd never heard of it before so typed it into Google and the above was one the references. >I know about thing like Lomotil, immodium and the like. The thing they lack >is the instant effect of "camphorated tincture of opium." which has to be >seen (experienced?) to be believed.... I hope I never have to :) >> Stemetil is a useful antiemetic (stop the vomiting) for the same >> situation, it's on prescription but no reason why your quack [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I tried to get some a couple of years back and was told that it is no longer >available, I'm just recovering from a _very_ nasty bug (hence so much time on the net :) and my quack wrote a prescription for Stemetil out for me two days ago, although I won't use it. >was given Maxelolon instead which seemed to be no where as >effective. Mind you I didn't get the cold shivers and shakes after taking it >either. I've never actually used Stemetil but my ex. use to take it fairly often for a condition and I never saw her experience any side affects. Mike Harding "Mike Harding" <mike_harding1@nixspamhotmail.com> wrote in message > Come on guys, you lot must have your own little tips too, > how about sharing them? I *try* to keep my mouth shut on subjects I know bugger all about. My medical knowledge is limited to bandaging up the kids after they try to cut off various bits of their anatomy. This is fascinating stuff though. Keep it coming. The most used item in our 1st aid kit is the Stingose. Good for mossie & sandfly bites. > The most used item in our 1st aid kit is the Stingose. Good for > mossie & sandfly bites. And damm useful stuff it is too. I'm very glad I packed a bottle into our bushwalking kit, a few months back I slipped in the he rainforest, reach out to steady myself and grabbed onto the trunk of a "hairy Mary".... Thousands of little spikes that break off in the skin when you try to remove them and then subsequently work themselves deeper and deeper till they fester out. And whilst they are doing so the poison that is in their tip hurts like buggery and once you have broken them off, the hollow nature of the bloody things ensures that you get a fresh dose of poison everytime you wash your hands, have a bath, go swimming or just work up a good sweat. I found that taking the top of the stingose and simply flooding the affected hand provided excellent temporary relief whilst I sat down in the middle of the trail and dug as many as I could out of it. We then continued the walk with periodic re-treatment. Without stingose I would have had a very unpleasant. miserable day..... Even our dog likes stingose. My parent's property at Montville is infested with these bloody huge ants that have a bite that stings (burns) for hours. The poor dog learned to come running after it had been bitten and to present the afflicted paw for a quick squirt... Clever dog that, if only she could fetch a beer or a correct size spanner she would be perfect. Tony Smith > I'd like to review/replace my 4WD First Aid kit. Keeping > in mind the sorts of problems we may encounter in the bush [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mike Harding Not sure of your capabilities but if you have never done the St John's course now would be a good time :-). Once you know the basics you can decide what is needed and more importantly will be able to improvise if required. During the course there will be plenty of advice available too (for the kit)  SignatureRegards ............... Rheilly Phoull Just a thought to keep in mind here. Once you have completed a recognised course you have opened a pandoras box for yourself. Should you dispense medical help to an individual and that medical help turns out not to be the best possible help you could have provided the person is within their rights according to the laws at present to place a claim for any "compensatable" action they or their lawyers can think of. Conversely, If you have no training/quals, you can do what you like within reason and not suffer at all for the consequences of your actions. I believe it's called the good samaritan clause. Others may know the guts of this better than I. > > I'd like to review/replace my 4WD First Aid kit. Keeping > > in mind the sorts of problems we may encounter in the bush [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > what is needed and more importantly will be able to improvise if required. > During the course there will be plenty of advice available too (for the kit) No so. As log as you show an intention to help and do not exceed your knowledge level the law will protect you. Basically, this means doing it by the manual that you trained with (and I would include one in your kit). Also, you cannot tell someone to take drugs (including Aspirin, Panadol etc). You CAN advise them that you have the drugs and allow them to self administer. >Just a thought to keep in mind here. > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> During the course there will be plenty of advice available too (for the >kit) That is the dead opposite of the good samaritan principle. See my earlier post. >Just a thought to keep in mind here. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >it's called the good samaritan clause. Others may know the guts of this >better than I. > That is the dead opposite of the good samaritan principle. > See my earlier post. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >it's called the good samaritan clause. Others may know the guts of this > >better than I. Good Samaritan clause or not, buggered if I would leave someone with injuries because of fear of litigation !! SignatureRegards ............... Rheilly Phoull ----- Original Message ----- From: "Foss" <spammerssuck@biteme.fu2.au> Newsgroups: aus.cars.offroad > Just a thought to keep in mind here. > > Once you have completed a recognised course you have opened a Pandora's box > for yourself. Should you dispense medical help to an individual and that > medical help turns out not to be the best possible help you could have > provided the person is within their rights according to the laws at present > to place a claim for any "compensatable" action they or their lawyers can > think of. The legal jargon is a little more complicated than that....... but it is a fact that no TRAINED first aider, has been successfully sued in Australia, except on the T.V soaps ;). You learn about these on a first aid course; You MUST ask for and receive the victim's permission before continuing. If the victim is unconscious or unable to communicate, it is presumed permission is given. You don't have a duty of care to render assistance unless you already owe a "duty of care" to the person injured (eg Your the first aid rep at work and an employee is injured). This means in Australia you can legally just stand there and watch and not render assistance if you don't have a "duty of care" to the victim . Once you begin you then have a "duty of care" to the victim, this also means you cannot abandon the victim once you have begun (until AMB arrives). To be sued for negligence you need all four of the following factors to be established; 1. The first aider owned a duty of care to the victim. 2. The first aider breached the standard of care required by that duty. 3. The victim sustained damage. 4. The victim's damage was caused by the first aider's breach of the standard of care. The last two points will not happen if you stay within your training. One last thing, you need to record all details in case of a later dispute...... time, date, injury, actions you took and your observations, not opinions. In summary, as long as you stay within your training you will not be successfully sued. With an ACCREDITED first aid course you carry out a lot of scenarios with teach you how to properly approach a victim and it all becomes second nature. > Conversely, If you have no training/quals, you can do what you like within > reason and not suffer at all for the consequences of your actions. Not true, read above, you would be at risk of negligence. > I believe it's called the good Samaritan clause. Others may know the guts of this > better than I. The Good Samaritan clause doesn't exist in Australia, this is an American law (again T.V soaps). We sort of run on a "duty of care" mind set in Australia. Hope this puts a little light on the subject, Greg Mike, I mean this is the nicest way, but if you need to ask what to put in a first aid kit you really need to do a first aid course. A full first aid kit is great, but the knowledge to be able to use the kit correctly and in a timely manner is what saves lives in a first aid situation. That said, I'll post the current Australian Standard 2675 "Portable First Aid Kits for use by Consumers". This is a guide to the minimum you should carry. - 3 Packets of gauze swabs (3 or 5 a pack) - 3 individual handtowels or tissues in a pocket size pack - 5 adhesive dressing strips - 1 roll of adhesive tape (at least 25 mm wide and 2.5 meters long) - 2 sterile non adhesive dry dressings (10cm x 10cm) - 1 no. 14 BPC wound dressing - 1 x 5 cm stretch bandage - 1 x 7.5 cm stretch bandage - 1 x triangular bandage - 5 x safety pin - 1 pair of scissors - 1 pair of splinter forceps - pencil and notepad OPTIONAL INCLUSIONS; - 3 antiseptic swabs - 1 combine dressing (9 x 20 cm) - latex disposable gloves Hope this helps Mike, Greg > I'd like to review/replace my 4WD First Aid kit. Keeping > in mind the sorts of problems we may encounter in the bush [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mike Harding >Mike, >I mean this is the nicest way, but if you need to ask what to put in a first >aid kit you really need to do a first aid course. I don't take offence easily Greg :) But I didn't ask what to put in a 1st aid kit - I asked for suggestions for a 1st aid kit for remote area use (in so many words) - a very different thing. >A full first aid kit is >great, but the knowledge to be able to use the kit correctly and in a timely >manner is what saves lives in a first aid situation. Sure, but I wouldn't get too hung up on a "First Aid Course", I'm not knocking them but don't run away with the idea that if you've done one all problems are solved. A lot of people have lived in remote areas for a long time now and tended for themselves without "First Aid courses". I worry about this "Do a course and she'll be right mate" approach. >That said, I'll post the current Australian Standard 2675 "Portable First >Aid Kits for use by Consumers". This is a guide to the minimum you should >carry. That's all very standard stuff Greg but it doesn't fulfil the question I asked. Mike Harding Mike, > I don't take offence easily Greg :) But I didn't ask what to put in a > 1st aid kit - I asked for suggestions for a 1st aid kit for remote > area use (in so many words) - a very different thing. Yes I understood your question, the list I gave you is what I would take bush. Injuries, in a treatment sense, are fairly generic, weather in the bush or in the city. Major bleed, minor bleed, broken limb, heart attack, altered conscious state, stroke, asthma, broken ribs, breathing emergencies, poison, exposure to heat or cold, shock, minor wounds, ect............. these individual emergencies are all treated in the same way weather the emergency is around your home or 10 Km from bugger knows where (bush). > Sure, but I wouldn't get too hung up on a "First Aid Course", I'm > not knocking them but don't run away with the idea that if you've > done one all problems are solved. I'm not saying you have to do a course or a course will solve your problems. But that you educate yourself through books, etc so that you know what to do in an emergency situation. It's about being prepared through knowledge so that you don't hesitate to react. This "just lay there and bleed while I look up what to do in a book" wastes precious time. The main benefit of a course is you can clear up questions, the instructors give a lot of real life examples and scenarios. >A lot of people have lived > in remote areas for a long time now and tended for themselves > without "First Aid courses". True............and a lot have died in remote areas too. One example of many..........a farm near Albury/Wodonga (20min out) a boy ran through a large pane of glass next to the front door and received a deep cut to his calf. The parents rapped a sheet around his leg and drove to hospital. The boy was brain dead on arrival and had bled to death. This boy would have definitely lived if the parents knew to apply direct pressure to the wound, something so simple could have saved their child's life. What I'm saying is rural or city.........education is the key. > I worry about this "Do a course and she'll be right mate" approach. I worry about this "Don't do a course and she'll be right mate" approach, especially for the victim. Greg > >Mike, > >I mean this is the nicest way, but if you need to ask what to put in a first [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Mike Harding >> I don't take offence easily Greg :) But I didn't ask what to put in a >> 1st aid kit - I asked for suggestions for a 1st aid kit for remote [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >these individual emergencies are all treated in the same way weather the >emergency is around your home or 10 Km from bugger knows where (bush). Sure, and this is basic stuff. But I was trying to broaden the discussion to cover wider areas - such as Tony and I have been chatting about. 10k from nowhere may be controllable but 24 or 48 hours from help and everything changes. >> Sure, but I wouldn't get too hung up on a "First Aid Course", I'm >> not knocking them but don't run away with the idea that if you've [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >course is you can clear up questions, the instructors give a lot of real >life examples and scenarios. I agree. But there is an ethos in Australia currently that unless you have "done a course" in something you are ignorant and, more frighteningly, if you have "done a course" you are an instant expert in whatever it may be. This culture of courses has developed mainly to fulfil "quality" systems such as ISO9000 and to try and protect organizations from legal accusations of incompetent staff. But I fully agree St John run an excellent 1st aid course and I would commend it to others - but it won't make you an expert or even competent, necessarily. >>A lot of people have lived >> in remote areas for a long time now and tended for themselves >> without "First Aid courses". > >True............and a lot have died in remote areas too. example snipped. Of course. But the point I am making is that it is possible to care for oneself. Indeed, in the bush, it's essential. >> I worry about this "Do a course and she'll be right mate" approach. > >I worry about this "Don't do a course and she'll be right mate" approach, >especially for the victim. Bit emotive there Greg. I've covered the "course culture" above but are you suggesting "doing a course" guarantees one will be better prepared to cope with all emergencies? There is a real danger of creating over confidant people - "enthusiastic amateurs", the bane of every professional? Anyway we're both, basically, in agreement, let's drop the value, or otherwise, of courses and ask you to add your tips for those additional items which may assist in the bush. Tony and I were discussing issues of dehydration and possible (temporary) solutions - there are many other potential problems than the standard 1st aid kit provides for and that's what I'm trying to get from this group with it's wide experience. Mike Harding Well........I'm a Registered Nurse (13 years )who has worked for the RFDS and in remote locations, in Nth West Qld. Apart from that, I hold no credibility on this subject. At the moment I'm working in forensic psychiatry, so I suppose I could rescue people who have been told to commit criminally bad 4 wd / camping accidents and things, by the voices, or messages from the TV or God...... I could get all technical and dazzle you all with my knowledge, but I reckon a St Johns first aid kit and some sensible forward planning will get most people out of the sh.t. My personal first aid box is a mobile hospital, but don't tell Peter Beastie that, because I've borrowed some of his stuff. Most importantly, I can cure a few days on the piss and a bad hang over.........details with held......trade secret. Shock is the enemy. You might notice on TV (when you see news coverage of car accidents, bombings etc) that the first thing that Ambos do on arrival at a trauma scene is put an IV in and bung in a litre of fluids ASAP. That's because the body dehydrates in a trauma, and then organs start to shut down.....specially if there's blood loss. So hydration is the first consideration. If someone gets bit by a snake, for example. get them to drink water.........assuming you don't have a 21 gauge cannula and a few bags of 0.9% saline like I do, in your kit. Try to stop blood loss. What ever you can do, do it. We are mostly made up of water. Losing fluids of any type is the worst thing. As far as medical indemnity and all that sh.t goes.......I say f.ck 'em. Life comes first. Rant over. I'll add some more soon, when I'm more sober. Being devoid of a 4WD right now, I'm pleased to see a topic I can talk about. I'll give it some more thought and hopefully give ya's some useful info. Barnsey........(late at night) A simple solution for dihorea if you have it is to boil plain rice add sugar to the juice and drink. Almost pure startch and glucose. Regards, wayne >A simple solution for dihorea if you have it is to boil plain rice add sugar >to the juice and drink. Almost pure startch and glucose. Regards, wayne Good one Wayne - I didn't know that. As this thread has just surfaced again and I have made my new First Aid kit complete with a list of contents, so I know what to buy to keep it topped up, I thought I would post that list for comments or use by others: ------------------------------------------------------ Gloves x 1 pair Paper tissues Eye bath Dettol Scissors Antiseptic cream Thermometer - 37=normal, 38=high, 40=hospital Safety pins x 2 Tweezers Needle Pencil Alcohol wipes x 10 Plasters, minor cuts x 30 Leukostrip x 1 pack - modern replacement for stiches Crepe bandages x 2 (75mm wide) Soft gauze bandages x 2 Micropore tape for fixing dressings to skin Wound dressing (10cm x 10cm) x 3 Gauze swab (7.5cm x 7.5cm) x 1 pack Soluble aspirin (Aspro) for fevers, rheumatic pains and general pain relief - take 3 in water every 4 hours Paracetamol general pain relief - take 2 every 4 hours Ibuprofen, anti inflammatory - take 2 every 4 hours Imodium - for diarrhoea. Take 2 initially, then 1 after each bowel movement Stemetil - for vomiting. Take 6 per day max. with at least 20 min gaps between tablets ------------------------------------------------------ Mike Harding >>A simple solution for dihorea if you have it is to boil plain rice add sugar >>to the juice and drink. Almost pure startch and glucose. Regards, wayne > >Good one Wayne - I didn't know that. how do you counteract the constapation? > > > A simple solution for dihorea if you have it is to boil plain > > > rice add sugar to the juice and drink. Almost pure startch and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > how do you counteract the constapation? Read aus.cars.offroad of course..... For persistent cases a cautious dose of aus.legal can also be effacious. Tony Smith Don't forget a couple of pressure bandages for when you get bitten by a taipan or death adder. (Or are your "crepe bandages" sufficient for the purpose?) >>A simple solution for dihorea if you have it is to boil plain rice add sugar >>to the juice and drink. Almost pure startch and glucose. Regards, wayne [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >Mike Harding Cheers, Phred. SignatureppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID >Don't forget a couple of pressure bandages for when you get bitten by >a taipan or death adder. (Or are your "crepe bandages" sufficient for >the purpose?) Hope so. But if not... I won't let you know :) Mike Harding |
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