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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (Australian group) / March 2004

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Stupid tyre surface area question...

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Dave - 23 Mar 2004 21:00 GMT
Picture the following, old Subey Brumby, 4 inch lift with blocks. No
power steering.

Stupid 'teknical' question.
27"x8.5" tyres on, steering is beaut - nice and light. Well... not quite
power steering light, but getting up there.

Original 23"x5.5" tyres, steering is very heavy when turning. [Yeah -
also looks dumb with a 4" lift!]

27" tyres are on steel rims, they must be twice as heavy as the tiny
little 23's.

Why is the steering heavier with smaller, lighter weight wheels?

Am I on the right track when I think along the lines of it being to do
with tyre-to-ground surface area, and the weight of the front of the
vehicle spread over that surface area? Since the 27's have a larger
diameter --> have more contact surface area to the ground.

On the other hand, coz the contact ground surface area of the smaller
tyres is way less to that of the larger tyres, the friction is way less
(way less surface area), so should be much easier to turn. But it ain't so.

Just one to start a useless long dribble thread, even if it starts off
with: "Ya problem, as I can see it, is that it is a Subaru..."     :)
David - 25 Mar 2004 03:27 GMT
Over the normal range of tyre pressures, the area of tyre in contact with
the ground is determined by the pressure in the tyre and the weight of the
vehicle at that wheel.  The weight of the vehicle (divided by about four)
not just the weight of the wheel itself.

For example, at 200 kPa (about 29 psi) in the tyre, the downward pressure on
the road is about 2 kilograms per square centimetre.  If the weight of the
Subaru is 400 kg at that tyre, then the area on the ground is 400/2 = 200
square centimetres.

For example, if you let the tyre pressure down to 100 kPa (14.5 psi), then
the surface area will increase to 400 square centimetres, which makes it
easier to drive on sand.  The tyre will always flatten on the bottom so that
force (weight)  = pressure times area.

Running with higher tyre pressures makes the steering lighter (less area in
contact), but reduces the braking efficiency (less area in contact)

The depth and resilience of the rubber in contact with the ground will also
play a role in the steering force.  New tyres with a deeper tread are better
in this respect as they squirm easier

Another Dave

> Picture the following, old Subey Brumby, 4 inch lift with blocks. No
> power steering.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Just one to start a useless long dribble thread, even if it starts off
> with: "Ya problem, as I can see it, is that it is a Subaru..."     :)
kevcat - 25 Mar 2004 07:18 GMT
Yeah that too
I was going to ask how much tread does each set have
tyres with bugger all tread will be very heavy to turn
new tyres are much easier

the width doesn't seem to make a very noticable difference
I had a Hilux with 31/10.5/15 tyres with good tread, on being taken away
I changed to a set of 700R/16 with no tread, I could hardly turn the
wheel with the skinnys on

Kev

> Over the normal range of tyre pressures, the area of tyre in contact with
> the ground is determined by the pressure in the tyre and the weight of the
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> > Just one to start a useless long dribble thread, even if it starts off
> > with: "Ya problem, as I can see it, is that it is a Subaru..."     :)
robert - 25 Mar 2004 09:43 GMT
is the offset on the rims the same
Dave - 25 Mar 2004 20:54 GMT
> is the offset on the rims the same

Different. About a good 1.5 to 2" difference in offset on each rim.
Track width increases roughly 3 to 3.5". [I'm pretty rough with a tape
measure.]

Had two replies on a subey mailing list:

I must say that is quite baffling. but, my only answer could be that the
stance of the brat with the 23' wheels has more wieght on the little
tires and a more narrow stance, making it more top heavy to the tires so
to speak. with the larger tires coming in at 27'' it could be the tires
are wider thus making a wider stance and distributing the wieght more
evenly on the 23' tire and not centralizing on such a narrow tire
causing the axle and struts to take more of wieght over its "narrow, top
heavy stance". by the tires ( the 27s I mean) taking more wieght it
takes the wieght off the axle, half shaft, struts etc. causing as you
mentioned   " less friction" and allows your tires to move more free. oh
by the way how large are the rims on your BRAT. I was thinking of
putting after market rims on it and was wondering how large you were
able to go. I am assuming they are 17' rims. hope this answers the
question you had. majoring in physics helps a little.

--

Just off the top of my head, I would speculate a few things actually
contribute to the different feeling of the steering between the
different tire sizes.  First, the larger diameter tires have more
mechanical leverage - kind of like a longer wrench compared to a
shorter one.  So, once they are rolling, turning them becomes easier.
It is similar to the principle involved in rolling a styrofoam cup
along; it always turns in the direction of the small end as the
larger end rolls easier and travels further.
The weight of the vehicle and tire inflation determine tire contact
patch more than does tire size.  However, the different tire may
change the shape of that patch, from wider and shorter to narrower
and longer, thereby changing the steering effort.
Also, the different wheel offset, to accomodate three extra inches of
width, may have changed the steering geometry somewhat, altering the
steering feel.
And obviously, differing tire compounds, tire construction, and tread
patterns can greatly effect steering effort.
robert - 26 Mar 2004 10:37 GMT
> > is the offset on the rims the same
>
> Different. About a good 1.5 to 2" difference in offset on each rim.
> Track width increases roughly 3 to 3.5". [I'm pretty rough with a tape
> measure.]

it must be this as the distance from pivot point is increased mechanical
advantage is decreased
ie harder to turn
kevcat - 27 Mar 2004 14:47 GMT
> > > is the offset on the rims the same
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> advantage is decreased
> ie harder to turn

a wider track may put the wheels outside the central pivot point, so
when you turn the wheels they don't twist in the spot but the outer will
tent to roll foward and the inner roll backwards, this would reduce
friction quite a bit

problem is it affects the handling and you may end up with bad "bump
steer" that can make cornering on rough roads a bit dodgy

Kev
Antti - 25 Mar 2004 13:57 GMT
> Picture the following, old Subey Brumby, 4 inch lift with blocks. No
> power steering.

> Why is the steering heavier with smaller, lighter weight wheels?

Recent tinkering on an L series suggested to me that tyre pressure
makes a big difference to steering effort. The steering is much lighter
with 38 psi (and the fuel economy is better too).

> Just one to start a useless long dribble thread, even if it starts off
> with: "Ya problem, as I can see it, is that it is a Subaru..."     :)

Actually, they are pretty cool cars. The Subaru did the Brindies the other
weekend for about half of what my Toyo would have cost in fuel. Maybe not
as capable in the really rough stuff, but a lot quieter and more
comfortable in transit.

Antti
geezer - 26 Mar 2004 06:38 GMT
> Picture the following, old Subey Brumby, 4 inch lift with blocks. No
> power steering.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Just one to start a useless long dribble thread, even if it starts off
> with: "Ya problem, as I can see it, is that it is a Subaru..."     :)

Could be the tread design, an interlocking type pattern is always harder to
steer than a pattern that has strong parallel grooving around the
circumference of the tyre.

If you look at the front tyres of a 2wd tractor you will see the strong
ridges circling the tyre while the rear tyres are configured for
grip/traction with the angled and pronounced  lugs.

The effect of the strong ridges of the front tyres are to make a directional
"rail" in the earth as the tractor moves, facilitating steering..

Go for  similar tyres if you have heavy steering.
 
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