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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (Australian group) / October 2004

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Tubes or tubeless?

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Jim - 22 Oct 2004 12:50 GMT
I love splitties. Mainly because replacement tyres around 7.50X16 or 205's
can be had anywhere. I've had my fair share of punctures, luckily only once
with a new tyre.
But as one gets older you discover a new phrase, "not fun". Also
technologies and best practises change .
Are tubeless really that much easier to repair? What about breaking the bead
on tubeless ? Much more difficult ? As in breaking the back ? Anyone use the
tyre pliars in the bush ? What are the alternatives ? Please don't tell me
about driving over the tyre or the hilift jack (dangerous if not handled
well, hard to carry without a rack or rear mount although I've lashed em to
the bullbar)
What about commercial tyre repair kits, is it cheaper/better to just go down
the tyre place and have them make 1 up for you ?
So many questions. I might be better off to stick with what I know best.
Flat tyre ? Break out the camp chair, boil the billy and have a think about
it while spluttering phrases like "Oh Gosh Oh Golly Me" :)))

Cheers
Jim
Scotty - 22 Oct 2004 14:30 GMT
Id give www.arb.com.au a contact and see what they suggest, these guys do
long haul trips all the time and theres nothing to answer a question like
experience eh.

>I love splitties. Mainly because replacement tyres around 7.50X16 or 205's
> can be had anywhere. I've had my fair share of punctures, luckily only
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Cheers
> Jim
Tony Smith - 22 Oct 2004 16:28 GMT
> Are tubeless really that much easier to repair? What about breaking
> the bead on tubeless ? Much more difficult ? As in breaking the back
> ? Anyone use the tyre pliars in the bush ?

I have a "Stenor" bead breaker that I bought 20 years ago after
experiencing more flats than I had spares on non-split rim tyres.

Breaking a tyre off a rim with the bead breaker and levers is dashed
hard work.

You used to be able to buy roadside tubless repair kits consisting of
an Awl and section of tubular rubber to insert into your puncture holes.

I tried to buy one a couple of years back as my current 4WD has Mag
wheels that the bead breaker would simply mangle. I was told that such
repair kits had been "illegal" for years and were no longer available.

I've been meaning to find a country that doesn't hold such a view and
buy one by mailorder, but I haven't got around to it yet.

In any event, I've now got a set of "splitties" so that if I ever get
the urge to go seriously bush, I'll leave the mags at home.

Tony Smith
Glendon - 22 Oct 2004 23:31 GMT
> You used to be able to buy roadside tubless repair kits consisting of
> an Awl and section of tubular rubber to insert into your puncture holes.
>
> I tried to buy one a couple of years back as my current 4WD has Mag
> wheels that the bead breaker would simply mangle. I was told that such
> repair kits had been "illegal" for years and were no longer available.

These are readily available at any car parts store, including repco. I have
several packs around the place, mainly for use on farm 4wd bikes. Have used
them on a Falcon, as an emergency repair pending replacement of the tyre.

I use a "BeadCheata" to break the bead on all sorts of wheels...bike, car,
4wd, truck, tractor. An Australian invention, I havent seen it around much
lately.....I think John Deere market it now. Its a small device that clamps
on the rim and breaks the bead by a screw mechanism. Works well, no grunt
and groan.

I have only limited experience in getting tyres off heavy duty 4wd single
piece rims. Hard work, and invariably scarred the rim and the bead of the
tyre. I suspect the light weight single piece rims I see on most 4wd's would
be difficult to change in the field without damage to rim and tyre.

I wonder how people way outback, where punctures are common, manage with
single piece rims???
Rob2 - 23 Oct 2004 03:54 GMT
"Tony Smith" <adolphuzspriggs@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> You used to be able to buy roadside tubless repair kits consisting of
> an Awl and section of tubular rubber to insert into your puncture holes.

I used one of those repair plugs in tyre many years ago, and while it worked
fine, they do spread the rubber a bit though.  Even though I did another
20,000k or so with the tyre it did wear noticeably more in the area around
the repair plug.  It follows that it must be putting some stress on the
plies which must weaken the tyre to some degree.  I suppose it could be a
problem if the strength of the tyre was marginal to begin with.  If I used
one again I'd make sure the tyre was on the back axle.

I bought one of those 'Tyre Pliers' bead breaker kits a few years ago, and
the kit included one of those awls and some plugs.  Haven't had the need to
use the bead breaker yet (touch wood). .  Having done a few tyres over the
years by the previously mentioned methods (driving on to the tyre, hi-lift
jack, much grunting with mallet and levers) I'm hoping that the Tyre Pliers
kit will make the job a more pleasant experience.

The best solution I've found is to carry two spares, and reduce the
likelihood of having to expend all that energy.  The lazy man's solution.

Rob
mE - 23 Oct 2004 10:13 GMT
for the newies to 4wd-ing whats the diff between splits and nonsplits (and
advantages, etc)??

Thanks

Gareth

>> Are tubeless really that much easier to repair? What about breaking
>> the bead on tubeless ? Much more difficult ? As in breaking the back
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Tony Smith
Ducati ST2 - 22 Oct 2004 23:23 GMT
They have a collar around rim that you pri off and you do not have to break
the bead the tyre pulls of the rim easy.

Normaly have narrower tyrers and will only take tubes as a seal cannot be
had with tubeless tyres because of the collar.

A little care is required when inflating the tyre after repair as the collar
can let go if not put back right good way to save yourself is to ensure that
the collar is facing towards the ground and if it lets go it will hit the
ground and not you or a bystander - couple of hits around collar with a
sledgy is the best bet .

Easier to repair tube.

Regarding repair kits for tubeless tyres can still be purchased from
motorcycles outlets the bottles of air supplied with them would not be off
any use to you as not enough in them to inflate the tyre, so a pump of some
sort is required.

Lushy
> for the newies to 4wd-ing whats the diff between splits and nonsplits (and
> advantages, etc)??
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> >
> > Tony Smith
Paul Saccani - 26 Oct 2004 12:01 GMT
>They have a collar around rim that you pri off and you do not have to break
>the bead the tyre pulls of the rim easy.
>
>Normaly have narrower tyrers and will only take tubes as a seal cannot be
>had with tubeless tyres because of the collar.

Not entirely true.  More accurate to say "most can't be sealed for tubeless
tyres".

Personally, I use tubeless tyres on split rims all the time.  But they are
designed for that, and use sealing O-rings.
cheers,

Paul Saccani
Newman West Australia
Tony Smith - 22 Oct 2004 23:25 GMT
> for the newies to 4wd-ing whats the diff between splits and nonsplits
> (and advantages, etc)??

You have no doubt seen tyres being removed and replaced on your rims at
a tyre place.

A whacking great machine breaks the bead and then "peels" the tyre over
the edge of the rim. Fitting is the reverse.

Now, what the machine does can be "emulated" by a husky young lad
equipped with three tyre levers and a rubber mallet, but it is very,
very hard work.

As you move up from car tyres into the realms of 4WD and truck tyres
the thickness (number of plies) goes up and the tyre becomes harder and
harder to work, to the point where it is verging on impossibility to
actually fit either by hand or even using the machine mentioned above,
the walls and bead of the tyre are just so thick that they will not
stretch over the rim edge without being destroyed.

Enter the split rim.

Essentially the "side" of the rim is like a giant circlip mounted in a
groove in the body of the rim.

In theory to remove a tyre you deflate it, work it around a bit to
detach it from the "split" part of the rim and then level the "spilt"
out of its groove and after having removed it, pull the tyre straight
off without any distortion.

In theory putting a new tyre on is as simple as dropping the tyre onto
the rim, replacing the split rim and inflating.....

If only things were as simple in theory as they are in practice.
A couple of people a year are killed or maimed during the putting back
on process because they didn't actually seat the split correctly, or
felt that the basic safety precaution of turning the tyre over so the
split faces down whilst inflating it was too hard.

The compressed air in a tyre contain an enormous amount of energy,
which if released suddenly can do horrible things. When I lived in
Townsville one of the local tyre places had a young rouse-about
literally loose his head when the improperly fitted split rim he was
inflating came apart. The owner of th eplace left the dented sheets of
iron in th eroof un-replaced to remind others to check that the rim was
seated and to turn them over when filling.

But, after all that, the beauty of the split rim is that after a hard
day's bush bashing when you have used up all your spares you can fill
your pipe after dinner and tackle the fun bush pastime of puncture
patching armed with nothing more than tyre levers and a mallet.

Sometimes, if you are really lucky, the person involved will only do
the first one and then let you do the next 4 or 5. All you have to do
is ask.

Tony Smith

PS, Most SUV type 4wd's do not come fitted with split rims. Mag wheels
do "split" in the bush, but that is another topic entirely.
D Walford - 25 Oct 2004 11:31 GMT
> > Are tubeless really that much easier to repair? What about breaking
> > the bead on tubeless ? Much more difficult ? As in breaking the back
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> wheels that the bead breaker would simply mangle. I was told that such
> repair kits had been "illegal" for years and were no longer available.

Industrial Tyre Supplies based in Dandenong Vic may be able to help.
My wifes brother is one of their sales reps and I got mine from him, the
last time I asked he said they were legal but that was some time ago.
IMO split rims make it much easier to repair punctures especially if you
have the correct lever designed for removing the locking ring.

Daryl
Jim - 23 Oct 2004 04:18 GMT
The replies are all interesting. I always carry two spares in the bush and
haven't come unstuck yet. But as Murphy is usually my only passenger I'm
waiting. Usually I'm within a day or so of a tyre repairer, but not always.
And it doesnt take much to have two punctures on some tracks. Not getting
any younger I thought I'd tap your experiences, so thanks.
I do have another question (yes I'm full of them, my motto is an educated
person is one who's aware of what they don't know).
I seem to remember pulling the ring off a splittie and finding that the
"other side" of the tyre also had a seal which was damm near impossible to
break. I tried the highlift. I tried driving over it. Finally a farmer said
give it here. Rekkoned he did two or three a DAY out in the stumps. I would
of thought him ...err...weight challenged...he was one big guy...but all of
it must of been muscle. Before I could ask him how he did it, I was mobile
again.
Is this bead on the other side always a PITA ? I'd guess that would be where
I'd use a bead cheater or whatever ?
You can buy a "harness" for reinflating splits. Apparently even when turned
over that can fly around if not seated properly. Which is ok if you're
behind a decent tree I guess. Which tree ? What tree ? :))

Cheers
Jim
Glendon - 23 Oct 2004 09:59 GMT
You need to break the bead on both sides of the tyre/rim, with split rims.
The split ring cannot be prised out until you have the tyre bead completely
off it.The degree of difficulty breaking the beads depending on how long
since the tyre was off the rim, and how much water the rim has seen. In my
case, where the wheels see water 2-20 times a day, its always an effort to
break the bead, whether on the split rim side, or the inner side. On the
other hand, if the tyre has been off within the last few days, its a simple
matter of treading the bead off with boots, and removing the split ring with
the wheel nut wrench provided by Toyota in their toolkit. (Yep, thats what
the oversized screwdriver end on the handle of the  wrench is for...I
think!)

> The replies are all interesting. I always carry two spares in the bush and
> haven't come unstuck yet. But as Murphy is usually my only passenger I'm
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Cheers
> Jim
Paul Saccani - 26 Oct 2004 12:07 GMT
>Is this bead on the other side always a PITA ? I'd guess that would be where
>I'd use a bead cheater or whatever ?

Most tubeless rims are safety rims, since the seventies.  You'll find that the
inboard side has a long shelf for the bead to sit on, and the out board side has
a narrow one.  That is intended to make it hard for the tyre to come off, and in
theory, it will only come off on the outer side of the rim.
cheers,

Paul Saccani
Newman West Australia
Craig R.Grattan - 23 Oct 2004 07:42 GMT
Hi Jim,

You haven't told us the context. Do you live in the bush or city and
is your 4WDng recreational or work?

I use my car (Prado) recreationally, mostly on weekend trips and long
ago decided that tubeless is the way to go. I am also getting long in
the teeth and like you, have decided that changing heavy 4WD wheels is
not fun and dangerous.

Split rims are preferred if you live in the bush and have to do your
own repairs, but for the weekend warrior on the tracks, tubeless wins
hands down, at least in my opinion <lol>.

As for may reasons:

- Spilt rims are very heavy and require an equally heavy duty
suspension, with a commensurately harsh ride <ouch!>;

- Tyres for splits are only available in a very limited range of
choices;

- Most late model 4WDs come with tubeless and cannot be legally
retro-fitted with splits, even if the wheels fit. This is an issue to
keep in mind because it also cuts also the other way. Some 4WDs such
as the Tojo Troopie cannot be legally fitted with tubeless on account
of the load rating avaliable, though many people do it;

- Any puncture with splits requires a wheel removal and time consuming
repair; In contrast, tubeless tyres can be easily (temporarily)
repaired without having to take the wheel off, by the use of plugs. An
on-board compressor is very helpful. A permanent repair can be
effected at the nearest town.

- I carry two spare alloy wheels (the rest are steel rims), just in
case I damage a carcass beyond repair - The additional alloy rim
weighs very little (9kg) on top of the spare tyre (14Kg) that I would
be obliged to carry for such contingencies, and in any event two alloy
rims weigh less than one split. Not worth taking tyres off/on in the
middle of nowhere for the minimal weight saving. I carry one spare on
the roof rack and the other on the tailgate. As for replacing tubeless
tyres on rims in the bush... Well, I think that is an obsolete idea.
Beads can be reliably broken a number of ways, but the average jock
never gets enough practice to do the job smoothly and ends up damaging
the rim and or tyre. Replacing a tubeless in the scrub, even under the
best of conditions is a struggle.

Having said the above, I readily concede that for many applications,
especially commercial, splits are the only way to go.

Cheers
Craig
 
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