Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (Australian group) / October 2004
Tubes or tubeless?
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Jim - 22 Oct 2004 12:50 GMT I love splitties. Mainly because replacement tyres around 7.50X16 or 205's can be had anywhere. I've had my fair share of punctures, luckily only once with a new tyre. But as one gets older you discover a new phrase, "not fun". Also technologies and best practises change . Are tubeless really that much easier to repair? What about breaking the bead on tubeless ? Much more difficult ? As in breaking the back ? Anyone use the tyre pliars in the bush ? What are the alternatives ? Please don't tell me about driving over the tyre or the hilift jack (dangerous if not handled well, hard to carry without a rack or rear mount although I've lashed em to the bullbar) What about commercial tyre repair kits, is it cheaper/better to just go down the tyre place and have them make 1 up for you ? So many questions. I might be better off to stick with what I know best. Flat tyre ? Break out the camp chair, boil the billy and have a think about it while spluttering phrases like "Oh Gosh Oh Golly Me" :)))
Cheers Jim
Scotty - 22 Oct 2004 14:30 GMT Id give www.arb.com.au a contact and see what they suggest, these guys do long haul trips all the time and theres nothing to answer a question like experience eh.
>I love splitties. Mainly because replacement tyres around 7.50X16 or 205's > can be had anywhere. I've had my fair share of punctures, luckily only [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Cheers > Jim Tony Smith - 22 Oct 2004 16:28 GMT > Are tubeless really that much easier to repair? What about breaking > the bead on tubeless ? Much more difficult ? As in breaking the back > ? Anyone use the tyre pliars in the bush ? I have a "Stenor" bead breaker that I bought 20 years ago after experiencing more flats than I had spares on non-split rim tyres.
Breaking a tyre off a rim with the bead breaker and levers is dashed hard work.
You used to be able to buy roadside tubless repair kits consisting of an Awl and section of tubular rubber to insert into your puncture holes.
I tried to buy one a couple of years back as my current 4WD has Mag wheels that the bead breaker would simply mangle. I was told that such repair kits had been "illegal" for years and were no longer available.
I've been meaning to find a country that doesn't hold such a view and buy one by mailorder, but I haven't got around to it yet.
In any event, I've now got a set of "splitties" so that if I ever get the urge to go seriously bush, I'll leave the mags at home.
Tony Smith
Glendon - 22 Oct 2004 23:31 GMT > You used to be able to buy roadside tubless repair kits consisting of > an Awl and section of tubular rubber to insert into your puncture holes. > > I tried to buy one a couple of years back as my current 4WD has Mag > wheels that the bead breaker would simply mangle. I was told that such > repair kits had been "illegal" for years and were no longer available. These are readily available at any car parts store, including repco. I have several packs around the place, mainly for use on farm 4wd bikes. Have used them on a Falcon, as an emergency repair pending replacement of the tyre.
I use a "BeadCheata" to break the bead on all sorts of wheels...bike, car, 4wd, truck, tractor. An Australian invention, I havent seen it around much lately.....I think John Deere market it now. Its a small device that clamps on the rim and breaks the bead by a screw mechanism. Works well, no grunt and groan.
I have only limited experience in getting tyres off heavy duty 4wd single piece rims. Hard work, and invariably scarred the rim and the bead of the tyre. I suspect the light weight single piece rims I see on most 4wd's would be difficult to change in the field without damage to rim and tyre.
I wonder how people way outback, where punctures are common, manage with single piece rims???
Rob2 - 23 Oct 2004 03:54 GMT "Tony Smith" <adolphuzspriggs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> You used to be able to buy roadside tubless repair kits consisting of > an Awl and section of tubular rubber to insert into your puncture holes. I used one of those repair plugs in tyre many years ago, and while it worked fine, they do spread the rubber a bit though. Even though I did another 20,000k or so with the tyre it did wear noticeably more in the area around the repair plug. It follows that it must be putting some stress on the plies which must weaken the tyre to some degree. I suppose it could be a problem if the strength of the tyre was marginal to begin with. If I used one again I'd make sure the tyre was on the back axle.
I bought one of those 'Tyre Pliers' bead breaker kits a few years ago, and the kit included one of those awls and some plugs. Haven't had the need to use the bead breaker yet (touch wood). . Having done a few tyres over the years by the previously mentioned methods (driving on to the tyre, hi-lift jack, much grunting with mallet and levers) I'm hoping that the Tyre Pliers kit will make the job a more pleasant experience.
The best solution I've found is to carry two spares, and reduce the likelihood of having to expend all that energy. The lazy man's solution.
Rob
mE - 23 Oct 2004 10:13 GMT for the newies to 4wd-ing whats the diff between splits and nonsplits (and advantages, etc)??
Thanks
Gareth
>> Are tubeless really that much easier to repair? What about breaking >> the bead on tubeless ? Much more difficult ? As in breaking the back [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Tony Smith Ducati ST2 - 22 Oct 2004 23:23 GMT They have a collar around rim that you pri off and you do not have to break the bead the tyre pulls of the rim easy.
Normaly have narrower tyrers and will only take tubes as a seal cannot be had with tubeless tyres because of the collar.
A little care is required when inflating the tyre after repair as the collar can let go if not put back right good way to save yourself is to ensure that the collar is facing towards the ground and if it lets go it will hit the ground and not you or a bystander - couple of hits around collar with a sledgy is the best bet .
Easier to repair tube.
Regarding repair kits for tubeless tyres can still be purchased from motorcycles outlets the bottles of air supplied with them would not be off any use to you as not enough in them to inflate the tyre, so a pump of some sort is required.
Lushy
> for the newies to 4wd-ing whats the diff between splits and nonsplits (and > advantages, etc)?? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > > Tony Smith Paul Saccani - 26 Oct 2004 12:01 GMT >They have a collar around rim that you pri off and you do not have to break >the bead the tyre pulls of the rim easy. > >Normaly have narrower tyrers and will only take tubes as a seal cannot be >had with tubeless tyres because of the collar. Not entirely true. More accurate to say "most can't be sealed for tubeless tyres".
Personally, I use tubeless tyres on split rims all the time. But they are designed for that, and use sealing O-rings. cheers,
Paul Saccani Newman West Australia
Tony Smith - 22 Oct 2004 23:25 GMT > for the newies to 4wd-ing whats the diff between splits and nonsplits > (and advantages, etc)?? You have no doubt seen tyres being removed and replaced on your rims at a tyre place.
A whacking great machine breaks the bead and then "peels" the tyre over the edge of the rim. Fitting is the reverse.
Now, what the machine does can be "emulated" by a husky young lad equipped with three tyre levers and a rubber mallet, but it is very, very hard work.
As you move up from car tyres into the realms of 4WD and truck tyres the thickness (number of plies) goes up and the tyre becomes harder and harder to work, to the point where it is verging on impossibility to actually fit either by hand or even using the machine mentioned above, the walls and bead of the tyre are just so thick that they will not stretch over the rim edge without being destroyed.
Enter the split rim.
Essentially the "side" of the rim is like a giant circlip mounted in a groove in the body of the rim.
In theory to remove a tyre you deflate it, work it around a bit to detach it from the "split" part of the rim and then level the "spilt" out of its groove and after having removed it, pull the tyre straight off without any distortion.
In theory putting a new tyre on is as simple as dropping the tyre onto the rim, replacing the split rim and inflating.....
If only things were as simple in theory as they are in practice. A couple of people a year are killed or maimed during the putting back on process because they didn't actually seat the split correctly, or felt that the basic safety precaution of turning the tyre over so the split faces down whilst inflating it was too hard.
The compressed air in a tyre contain an enormous amount of energy, which if released suddenly can do horrible things. When I lived in Townsville one of the local tyre places had a young rouse-about literally loose his head when the improperly fitted split rim he was inflating came apart. The owner of th eplace left the dented sheets of iron in th eroof un-replaced to remind others to check that the rim was seated and to turn them over when filling.
But, after all that, the beauty of the split rim is that after a hard day's bush bashing when you have used up all your spares you can fill your pipe after dinner and tackle the fun bush pastime of puncture patching armed with nothing more than tyre levers and a mallet.
Sometimes, if you are really lucky, the person involved will only do the first one and then let you do the next 4 or 5. All you have to do is ask.
Tony Smith
PS, Most SUV type 4wd's do not come fitted with split rims. Mag wheels do "split" in the bush, but that is another topic entirely.
D Walford - 25 Oct 2004 11:31 GMT > > Are tubeless really that much easier to repair? What about breaking > > the bead on tubeless ? Much more difficult ? As in breaking the back [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > wheels that the bead breaker would simply mangle. I was told that such > repair kits had been "illegal" for years and were no longer available. Industrial Tyre Supplies based in Dandenong Vic may be able to help. My wifes brother is one of their sales reps and I got mine from him, the last time I asked he said they were legal but that was some time ago. IMO split rims make it much easier to repair punctures especially if you have the correct lever designed for removing the locking ring.
Daryl
Jim - 23 Oct 2004 04:18 GMT The replies are all interesting. I always carry two spares in the bush and haven't come unstuck yet. But as Murphy is usually my only passenger I'm waiting. Usually I'm within a day or so of a tyre repairer, but not always. And it doesnt take much to have two punctures on some tracks. Not getting any younger I thought I'd tap your experiences, so thanks. I do have another question (yes I'm full of them, my motto is an educated person is one who's aware of what they don't know). I seem to remember pulling the ring off a splittie and finding that the "other side" of the tyre also had a seal which was damm near impossible to break. I tried the highlift. I tried driving over it. Finally a farmer said give it here. Rekkoned he did two or three a DAY out in the stumps. I would of thought him ...err...weight challenged...he was one big guy...but all of it must of been muscle. Before I could ask him how he did it, I was mobile again. Is this bead on the other side always a PITA ? I'd guess that would be where I'd use a bead cheater or whatever ? You can buy a "harness" for reinflating splits. Apparently even when turned over that can fly around if not seated properly. Which is ok if you're behind a decent tree I guess. Which tree ? What tree ? :))
Cheers Jim
Glendon - 23 Oct 2004 09:59 GMT You need to break the bead on both sides of the tyre/rim, with split rims. The split ring cannot be prised out until you have the tyre bead completely off it.The degree of difficulty breaking the beads depending on how long since the tyre was off the rim, and how much water the rim has seen. In my case, where the wheels see water 2-20 times a day, its always an effort to break the bead, whether on the split rim side, or the inner side. On the other hand, if the tyre has been off within the last few days, its a simple matter of treading the bead off with boots, and removing the split ring with the wheel nut wrench provided by Toyota in their toolkit. (Yep, thats what the oversized screwdriver end on the handle of the wrench is for...I think!)
> The replies are all interesting. I always carry two spares in the bush and > haven't come unstuck yet. But as Murphy is usually my only passenger I'm [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Cheers > Jim Paul Saccani - 26 Oct 2004 12:07 GMT >Is this bead on the other side always a PITA ? I'd guess that would be where >I'd use a bead cheater or whatever ? Most tubeless rims are safety rims, since the seventies. You'll find that the inboard side has a long shelf for the bead to sit on, and the out board side has a narrow one. That is intended to make it hard for the tyre to come off, and in theory, it will only come off on the outer side of the rim. cheers,
Paul Saccani Newman West Australia
Craig R.Grattan - 23 Oct 2004 07:42 GMT Hi Jim,
You haven't told us the context. Do you live in the bush or city and is your 4WDng recreational or work?
I use my car (Prado) recreationally, mostly on weekend trips and long ago decided that tubeless is the way to go. I am also getting long in the teeth and like you, have decided that changing heavy 4WD wheels is not fun and dangerous.
Split rims are preferred if you live in the bush and have to do your own repairs, but for the weekend warrior on the tracks, tubeless wins hands down, at least in my opinion <lol>.
As for may reasons:
- Spilt rims are very heavy and require an equally heavy duty suspension, with a commensurately harsh ride <ouch!>;
- Tyres for splits are only available in a very limited range of choices;
- Most late model 4WDs come with tubeless and cannot be legally retro-fitted with splits, even if the wheels fit. This is an issue to keep in mind because it also cuts also the other way. Some 4WDs such as the Tojo Troopie cannot be legally fitted with tubeless on account of the load rating avaliable, though many people do it;
- Any puncture with splits requires a wheel removal and time consuming repair; In contrast, tubeless tyres can be easily (temporarily) repaired without having to take the wheel off, by the use of plugs. An on-board compressor is very helpful. A permanent repair can be effected at the nearest town.
- I carry two spare alloy wheels (the rest are steel rims), just in case I damage a carcass beyond repair - The additional alloy rim weighs very little (9kg) on top of the spare tyre (14Kg) that I would be obliged to carry for such contingencies, and in any event two alloy rims weigh less than one split. Not worth taking tyres off/on in the middle of nowhere for the minimal weight saving. I carry one spare on the roof rack and the other on the tailgate. As for replacing tubeless tyres on rims in the bush... Well, I think that is an obsolete idea. Beads can be reliably broken a number of ways, but the average jock never gets enough practice to do the job smoothly and ends up damaging the rim and or tyre. Replacing a tubeless in the scrub, even under the best of conditions is a struggle.
Having said the above, I readily concede that for many applications, especially commercial, splits are the only way to go.
Cheers Craig
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