LPG Autogas v Propane v Butane

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Roger - 15 Apr 2006 07:01 GMT

Finally got a more sensible answer about the use of Autogas
and the reason for NOT using it on your BBQ.

The current standard for Autogas is that it is a Clayton's
Standard. Its allowed to be so variable so as to accomodate
the refineries in getting rid of whatever is in over supply at
the time. The idea at one time was to adopt the EU Autogas
standard but that fell on the first hurdle when the refineries would
have to find a use for copious amounts of butane. The EU has
other uses for butane within the more modern refineries, the very
old refineries (apart from Mobil Altona) in Australia do not.

In Aus Autogas can contain, propane, butane and butadiene in various
%, but butadiene must not exceed 1%.

Butadiene is a known carcinogen (even when burnt) hence
the ban on using Autogas in BBQs, stoves etc.

The multi fuel (LPG diesel) systems which have been very successful
in Europe and the USA cant be used here with anywhere near the same
degree of reliability due to the variability in the Autogas. The Autogas
burns with a different flame front to the propane and gradually reduces
the piston crowns until they fail.

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John McKenzie - 15 Apr 2006 07:32 GMT

> Finally got a more sensible answer about the use of Autogas
> and the reason for NOT using it on your BBQ.

none of that is a reason not to use it in a bbq. The main issue with
using a lot of butane is the (if unchecked) amount of carbon monoxide it
will produce from burning it. Which in an enclosed space, could be an
issue. So by all means use it in the indoor rumpus room bbq, but leave a
suicide note before you start cooking the snags.

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Snoozin - 15 Apr 2006 07:50 GMT

John McKenzie Wrote:

> > Finally got a more sensible answer about the use of Autogas
> > and the reason for NOT using it on your BBQ.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> --
> John McKenzie

Or open the window..

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Snoozin

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athol - 15 Apr 2006 09:47 GMT

> The current standard for Autogas is that it is a Clayton's
> Standard. Its allowed to be so variable so as to accomodate
> the refineries in getting rid of whatever is in over supply at
> the time.

Right so far.

> The idea at one time was to adopt the EU Autogas
> standard but that fell on the first hurdle when the refineries would
> have to find a use for copious amounts of butane.

Bzzt. The EU standard is as variable as ours. The reference test
fuels that the engine has to be able to automatically adapt to are
required to have (A) 30% +/- 2% C3, balance C4, and (B) 85% +/- 2%
C3, balance C4.

> The EU has
> other uses for butane within the more modern refineries, the very
> old refineries (apart from Mobil Altona) in Australia do not.

Can't really comment on the details of what chemicals are used where
within the refineries, but I can comment on the MSDSs, which are
available on line.

> In Aus Autogas can contain, propane, butane and butadiene in various
> %, but butadiene must not exceed 1%.

I'd like to see any reference to where any regulation permits butadiene.

I've seen reference to ethane, propane, butane, propene and butene but
never butasiene.

> Butadiene is a known carcinogen (even when burnt) hence
> the ban on using Autogas in BBQs, stoves etc.

Even when burnt? Once it's burnt, it is no longer the same chemical.
Are you saying that the chemicals resulting from the burning of a
hydrocarbon (ie CO2, H2O, HC, NOx, CO, etc.) are carcinogenic if the
initial chemical happened to be butadiene but not if it was butane,
etc.?

> The multi fuel (LPG diesel) systems which have been very successful
> in Europe and the USA cant be used here with anywhere near the same
> degree of reliability due to the variability in the Autogas. The Autogas
> burns with a different flame front to the propane and gradually reduces
> the piston crowns until they fail.

Complete crap for EU equipment the reason explained above about EU
variability. Might possibly be valid for US equipment but probably not.

Okay. Here's the typical reasoning against use of propane/butane mix in
a domestic LPG application...

If you have propane and butane mixed in a cylinder and the temperature
falls to the point that the butane is purely liquid (around zero
celcius depending on whether it's n-butane or iso-butane), the vapour
in the top of the cylinder will be purely propane. If you use this
vapour withdrawal cylinder at low temperature, you'll end up using
virtually all of the propane, leaving liquid butane. When the cylinder
warms up, you'll have a high-butane mixture that will not provide the
correct air-fuel ratio for pilot lights, etc.. Also, this situation may
lead people to deliberately apply heat to the cylinder to try to get the
gas (butane) to come out, whereas propane would still have pressure at
the same temperature.

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Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

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