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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / October 2006

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Building highways (in Germany)

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Bernd Felsche - 25 Sep 2006 10:00 GMT
Here's a page of pictures showing a new highway a little before it
opened to the public in Germany. It's a federal highway being used
as an Autobahn placebo so it's designed to carry a lot of traffic.

    http://www.b6n-online.de/0_11_BA72_ende.htm

Width-wise, it's the same cross-section as a narrow Autobahn but it
doesn't have full-length barriers at the edge.

Construction being finished includes the median barrier.

Overpasses, etc are also show as well as sweeping bends, etc.

A novel technique used in surfacing is "compact asphalt" where a hot
binding layer is put down immediately before the bitumen. This is
supposed to dramatically reduce surface cracking due to thermal
expansion/contraction and slows the development of wheel ruts. It
also halves the amount of bitumen that's needed for the top surface.

This is a set of piccies from an opening of a new section of that
highway.
    http://www.b6n-online.de/3_1_2fest06_nach.htm

And another section:
    http://www.b6n-online.de/freigabe_81.htm

Note the crappy Police cars.
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/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
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feral - 25 Sep 2006 10:51 GMT
> Note the crappy Police cars.

It's a wonder they need cars at all.
What with being the benchmark and all.

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ShazWozza - 25 Sep 2006 10:54 GMT
> Here's a page of pictures showing a new highway a little before it
> opened to the public in Germany. It's a federal highway being used
> as an Autobahn placebo so it's designed to carry a lot of traffic.
>
> http://www.b6n-online.de/0_11_BA72_ende.htm

What is it with those short span bridges which have centre pylons in the
median strip? Surely a span could have been designed which didn't require a
centre pylon.
feral - 25 Sep 2006 10:59 GMT
> What is it with those short span bridges which have centre pylons in the
> median strip? Surely a span could have been designed which didn't require a
> centre pylon.

Where are zee Gestapo going to hide zen?

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Feral       ( @..@)
          (\-- Ü--/)
        ((.>______<.))
         ^^^      ^^^

Bernd Felsche - 25 Sep 2006 13:40 GMT
>> Here's a page of pictures showing a new highway a little before it
>> opened to the public in Germany. It's a federal highway being used
>> as an Autobahn placebo so it's designed to carry a lot of traffic.

>> http://www.b6n-online.de/0_11_BA72_ende.htm

>What is it with those short span bridges which have centre pylons
>in the median strip? Surely a span could have been designed which
>didn't require a centre pylon.

To cull the morons, obviously. :-)

There are a number of reasons that come back to what's necessary to
support the structure, the load of the cars, wind loads and rain/snow
loads. I'm not going to try to explain 3 years' worth of structural
Engineering in this newsgroup <global sigh of relief>.

Eventually, it comes down to finance and how much the taxpayers are
prepared to pay for it.

Oh... and the low-profile is also deliberate to reduce the (visual)
environmental impact.
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\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
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Mot Adv-NSW - 25 Sep 2006 12:05 GMT
"Bernd Felsche"
Very nice Bernd, I'll forward it on to a chap:-)

J.
veritas - 25 Sep 2006 14:31 GMT
> "Bernd Felsche"
> Very nice Bernd, I'll forward it on to a chap:-)
>
> J.

They seem to be making the same mistake - acceleration strips too short for good traffic blending :(
Bernd Felsche - 25 Sep 2006 14:42 GMT
>> "Bernd Felsche"
>> Very nice Bernd, I'll forward it on to a chap:-)

>They seem to be making the same mistake - acceleration strips too
>short for good traffic blending :(

It's "only" a highway not an Autobahn so the default speed limit is
only 100 km/h; and the speed limit doesn't just start near the end
of the acceleration lane.

Most drivers in Germany know that the pedal on the right is the one
to make you go quicker and they by and large know how to merge.
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/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
X   against HTML mail     |  they threaten."
/ \  and postings          | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

Clockmeister - 29 Sep 2006 19:12 GMT
>>> "Bernd Felsche"
>>> Very nice Bernd, I'll forward it on to a chap:-)
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Most drivers in Germany know that the pedal on the right is the one
> to make you go quicker and they by and large know how to merge.

They also know in Germany (and other northern European countries) that
spending more initially to engineer and build decent roads actually saves
money long term when compared overall costs of building cheap roads that
fall apart after a shower of rain.
bugalugs - 29 Sep 2006 22:41 GMT
>>>> "Bernd Felsche"
>>>> Very nice Bernd, I'll forward it on to a chap:-)
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> money long term when compared overall costs of building cheap roads that
> fall apart after a shower of rain.

There seemed to be an elaborate 'opening' ceremony, what was the
significance of the road??
Bernd Felsche - 30 Sep 2006 01:45 GMT
>> "Bernd Felsche" <bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>>>>> "Bernd Felsche"

>>>>> Very nice Bernd, I'll forward it on to a chap:-)

>>>> They seem to be making the same mistake - acceleration strips
>>>> too short for good traffic blending :(

>>> It's "only" a highway not an Autobahn so the default speed limit
>>> is only 100 km/h; and the speed limit doesn't just start near
>>> the end of the acceleration lane.

>>> Most drivers in Germany know that the pedal on the right is the
>>> one to make you go quicker and they by and large know how to
>>> merge.

>> They also know in Germany (and other northern European countries)
>> that spending more initially to engineer and build decent roads
>> actually saves money long term when compared overall costs of
>> building cheap roads that fall apart after a shower of rain.

>There seemed to be an elaborate 'opening' ceremony, what was the
>significance of the road??

It cost a lot of money; was difficult to build; and is worth
political points. :-)

The new road is a bypass for a number of towns through which the old
highway passes.

Situated on the edge of the popular Harz mountain range in central
Germany, it will provide a lot of traffic relief in those towns and
will speed up through-traffic enormously; moreso when the entire
highway is completed to the A14 Autobahn near Bernburg, further to
the East.  For drivers; such roads aren't just big time savers; they
are big fuel savers.

There's a bit of "feedback" in traffic volumes as well; with easier
access to the dozen or so towns bypassed; tourists are more likely
to visit the region again without fear of getting tangled in heavy
traffic.

The economic benefits during and after construction are significant
given the high rate of unemployment in the region.
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/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
X   against HTML mail     |  they threaten."
/ \  and postings          | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

bugalugs - 30 Sep 2006 09:18 GMT
> The new road is a bypass for a number of towns through which the old
> highway passes.

<snip>

> The economic benefits during and after construction are significant
> given the high rate of unemployment in the region.

Interesting !

About 10+ years ago the local roads people were touting a proposed
bypass that would lop half-n-acre off the corner of my place and bypass
a couple of small villages. Proposed completion date was about 2006/7.
Me missus got quite agitated about it at the time wanting to sell and
get the hell out of here. It was 'one' of the reasons she shot thru.

Now, in the meantime the local village has growed a large supermarket,
is about to get a large shopping complex, pub hotel/motels, servo but
the bypass is still shown on the planning documents as 8 to 10 years away.

Makes me wonder if the local councils want to keep pushing the
tourists/w/end visitors through the "village" where they have to slow
down and maybe unload some of their money.  'cause the moment the bypass
goes through they'll sail straight on by: with their wallet closed.
Bernd Felsche - 01 Oct 2006 03:28 GMT
>> The new road is a bypass for a number of towns through which the old
>> highway passes.
><snip>

>> The economic benefits during and after construction are significant
>> given the high rate of unemployment in the region.

>Interesting !

>About 10+ years ago the local roads people were touting a proposed
>bypass that would lop half-n-acre off the corner of my place and bypass
>a couple of small villages. Proposed completion date was about 2006/7.

Don't get too upset. An older map I have of the German roads shows
an Autobahn section to be completed 1997. Most of it will be
completed in 2007, but there are still gaps.

[I'm keeping tabs on the progress because of plans to visit Europe
next year.]

Of course, Germany grew by 30% over-night and thousands of km of
more important Autobahn have been (re-)built in the past 15 years.
The network has grown by more than 100 km a year over the past
decade.

There are also reasons of local politics, "environmentalists" and,
as with the B6n, the unexpected discovery of previous civilisation
that has to be preserved. This can entail re-routing of the
highways, carefully digging up anything deemed worth preserving, or
providing alternative habitats for species such as the "green-horned
lesser central German wood louse" (that previous generations perhaps
tried desperately to exterminate because the bugs ate their
half-timbered houses).

>Makes me wonder if the local councils want to keep pushing the
>tourists/w/end visitors through the "village" where they have to slow
>down and maybe unload some of their money.  'cause the moment the bypass
>goes through they'll sail straight on by: with their wallet closed.

The situation in Germany a just a little different. The distance
between adjacent towns/villages/hamlets on the old highway was
between zero metres and 6 kilometres.

The highest speeds usually allowed in a locality is 50 km/h. Many
older towns, with 1000+ year-old buildings within a metre of the
main road choose the lower limit of 30 km/h. The highway is
sometimes the only road in the village.

A drive along such a highway is therefore very taxing; very slow;
and very expensive.  Tourists don't want to have to spend 2 to 3
hours in that sort of traffic conditions to cover a nett distance of
less than 100 km.  It's worth making a 100 km *detour* via Autobahn
to save on the aggro.

Don't for one second believe that the Police aren't also used in
Germany to supplement incomes by "taxing" the unwary motorist. All
the monies from traffic infringements under about $100 go to the
local government. That includes btw exceeding the speed limit by up
to 20 km/h.

The bypass highway has interchanges every 3 to 10 km to feed a few
locatities either side; all within spitting distance of the bypass.
Instead of motorists having to endure local traffic conditions for
hours to get to where they want, they can choose the place that they
_want_ to visit. Each destination has (to have) its own merits.

Be that a tourist destination, a quiet agricultural hamlet or a
quiet residential village.
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/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
X   against HTML mail     |  they threaten."
/ \  and postings          | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

Athol - 30 Sep 2006 09:19 GMT
> It cost a lot of money; was difficult to build; and is worth
> political points. :-)

> The new road is a bypass for a number of towns through which the old
> highway passes.

> Situated on the edge of the popular Harz mountain range in central
> Germany, it will provide a lot of traffic relief in those towns and
> will speed up through-traffic enormously; moreso when the entire
> highway is completed to the A14 Autobahn near Bernburg, further to
> the East.  For drivers; such roads aren't just big time savers; they
> are big fuel savers.

> There's a bit of "feedback" in traffic volumes as well; with easier
> access to the dozen or so towns bypassed; tourists are more likely
> to visit the region again without fear of getting tangled in heavy
> traffic.

> The economic benefits during and after construction are significant
> given the high rate of unemployment in the region.

All of this is exactly the same as would apply to roads that are needed
here, too.

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Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Bernd Felsche - 01 Oct 2006 03:44 GMT
>> It cost a lot of money; was difficult to build; and is worth
>> political points. :-)

>> The new road is a bypass for a number of towns through which the
>> old highway passes.

>> Situated on the edge of the popular Harz mountain range in
>> central Germany, it will provide a lot of traffic relief in those
>> towns and will speed up through-traffic enormously; moreso when
>> the entire highway is completed to the A14 Autobahn near
>> Bernburg, further to the East.  For drivers; such roads aren't
>> just big time savers; they are big fuel savers.

>> There's a bit of "feedback" in traffic volumes as well; with
>> easier access to the dozen or so towns bypassed; tourists are
>> more likely to visit the region again without fear of getting
>> tangled in heavy traffic.

>> The economic benefits during and after construction are
>> significant given the high rate of unemployment in the region.

>All of this is exactly the same as would apply to roads that are
>needed here, too.

Yes. Using roads for efficiency in transportation is a "novel" concept.

As long as truckies are prepared to work a 100-hour week at a
subsistence rate and fuel prices are still "cheap", things aren't
going to get better,

Consumers can see some "fuelled" price rises on the supermarket
shelves, but many truckies are still prepared to act the indentured
slave. When they start costing $100/hour or more behind the wheel,
shelf prices will rocket.

Reducing journey times and fuel costs are essential to minimise the
transport component of consumer prices. High *real* efficiency in
that part of the economy makes the whole economy less sensitive to
externally-determined fuel costs.

That's the dollars-and-cents argument.

Quality of life for both residents and those on the roads is a less-
quantifiable aspect.
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\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
X   against HTML mail     |  they threaten."
/ \  and postings          | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

Bernd Felsche - 25 Sep 2006 16:18 GMT
>Here's a page of pictures showing a new highway a little before it
>opened to the public in Germany. It's a federal highway being used
>as an Autobahn placebo so it's designed to carry a lot of traffic.

>    http://www.b6n-online.de/0_11_BA72_ende.htm

>Width-wise, it's the same cross-section as a narrow Autobahn but it
>doesn't have full-length barriers at the edge.

The cross-section of the road is "RQ26"; a standard road section
being 26 metres wide.

Here's a quickly-hacked guide to other common cross-sections:
    http://bernd.felsche.org/SENSE/Section.html
Badly translated from
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regelquerschnitt

Apologies if I mis-translated some of the civil gingerbeer jargon.
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\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
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Tsunami - 25 Sep 2006 20:03 GMT
> Here's a page of pictures showing a new highway a little before it
> opened to the public in Germany. It's a federal highway being used
> as an Autobahn placebo so it's designed to carry a lot of traffic.
>
> http://www.b6n-online.de/0_11_BA72_ende.htm

Is an Autobahn *placebo*  like what we have in australia?
A road you drive on really really fast and you truly believe you are on an
autobahn???

The NZ ones are called autobahn "placebro"  cos that's what they do... take
you to a place, bro
 
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