absolutely.

An interesting side note. I'm a reasonably skilled driver (and with each
passing year I get better and better). Some of the cars I've had over
the years I could drive with a sleeping baby on the bonnet, and they'd
not even wake up, let alone be in danger. Put _anyone_ else in the same
car, at it'd be pig rooting, missed gears, all over the place. Basically
I can adapt/integrate with any car, whether it's easy to drive or
difficult, I can make it look easy. I can do very well (never actually
done so on public roads of course) at finding a cars limits and riding
on that edge without major risk of loss of control. A few friends have
commented on that.

Anyhoo, I don't do particularly well on car simulators. I mean, I can do
ok with a little practice on various playstation (etc) driving games.
But I'm nowhere near as good as on the road. The problem with the sims
is it only relies on visual cues. The good driver, no matter how well
they can see (but I certainly take your point, about the tunnel vision
issue as well), also relies heavily on their ability to 'feel' the car,
the g-forces and how it's reacting to them all. The 'video game' driver
just 'remembers' for any given simulated circuit the fastest they can
take the corner etc, and mostly repeat that. These are the same clueless
dickheads who roll cars or put them in trees because they don't 'get'
that relationship, and think if they turn the wheel more, the car will
turn harder. Since they never exceed the traction limits, until they
actually do so and crash, they don't have the chance to replay and lower
the speed. They sucker themselves into thinking that because the car
hasn't crashed, they can just take the corners faster and faster (etc)

The other big issue is the panic response. I can't claim any credit for
it, I guess it must be somewhat genetic, but I do ok there. Many people
don't. They sh.t themselves at the first sign of trouble, and lock up
the brakes, or with abs, just freeze with the foot on the brakes hard
and don't attempt any further steering input. Bad idea. The games make
them think that there's no danger, just go back and replay, so when the
real thing happens, they f.ck up. I guess it's comparable to the almost
circus clown like antics of a bunch of middle aged 2 kid middle income
drone when they have a dinner party or even (if they still exist)
barbecue. If something on the stove burst into flames, they sh.t
themselves. Instead of calmly grabbing a fire blanket (or suitable
substitue). they almost invariably jump around like they've just peed on
an electric fence, then grab the f.cking pot and run around doing a
michael jackson impersonation, and possibly even worse, try and put it
out with water. I actually know of a worse case of this type. A fondue
(spelling) was about to be served, and it was meant to be alight
(apparently) but it then caused something else to light. One fuckwit got
up and started running around. Brought it near the sink, and set the
curtains alight. Then tried water, it spat everywhere burning the moron.
Then he panics even more, and runs for the door to take it outside.
Because it's fat/oil that's burning, it's now spilt about the place. He
then slips on the spillage, and the pot thing goes flying, managing to
burn roughly half the people there. And for the icing on the cake, after
displaying all this genius then (at a time when he should be considering
cutting off his balls with the nearest knife so such stupidity won't
journey another generation) refuses to listen to the people telling them
to jump in the shower, undies or whatever, and one under a kitchen tap
(etc, depending on the extent and location of the burns) with cold
running water for a good 20 minutes. What hope is there :)

I acutally had an idea a few years ago. didn't fully nut it out but
nonetheless. The idea was that as a compulsory part of driver licencing,
each learner has to spend one night as a passenger (and to help with
clean up) with a towie or ambulance. If they witnessed the aftermath,
and having to clean up the debris, and seeing dead bodies, that had
released their sh.t and piss everywhere, they might see it differently.
That _would_ be hard to implement, so perhaps a middle ground could be
had whereby anyone doing something manifestly retarded on the road (say
p plater drink driving, repeat offence full licenced driver, _actual_
street racing in dangerous area (not the, it's a skyline so they must be
racing crap) had to do community service, specifically riding with a
towie, and having to clean up after the accidents (which would sorta
give the towie a small break, not having to do it themselves). Of course
that might actually have an impact, but doesn't generate revenue.

In defence of law enforcement, I dare say a _lot_ of coppers would
approve of such a thing. They, like ambos and fireys see the 'end
result' all to often as the nature of their job dictates. They may or
may not 100% approve of the current fines etc. I think it would be safe
to say they see a _huge_ need, and would undertake current measures
without objection because they'd no doubt feel that even a less than
optimal system is better than none at all (though that would be heavily
dependant on the specific context/definition of the relevant terms, and
I'm not providing mine!).

manufacturers have realized this and are starting to include computer
based systems to take control from the driver in certain circumstances.

I suspect that they might reduce the road toll in the short term. I'd
still wonder if that would actually make it even worse, because with all
the extra control over-rides, they _never_ learn defensive driving, and
will have even less skill than the current lot. Or they'll think 'i have
abs' so tailgate 5mm off the car in front's bumper. I recall a friend of
a friend who was in his sisters friends car, with her friend driving.
They were under 1m behind the driver in front at just over 100km/h. He
mentioned it to her and she condescendingly said "I've got good brakes"
etc. She was such a bonehead (in fact her nickname was Helen Bonehead)
that she didn't even realise that even with the brakes of a formula one,
if the driver ahead braked suddenly and with no warning/reason (which is
a different thing to them running a few inches behind under brakes
before a corner, as they know what and when and whatw the car infront
will do heading into said corner) , they'd plow into the rear of the
other car before they even got their foot on the brake pedal.

I thought a war was when two countries armies battled one another?

But they don't care, they just wanna look "cool" to others.

It's weird how they instantly assume they are competant drivers. with no
basis!
They tailgate and harass anyone who gets in their way, mouthing swear words.
Somehow, the instant they get on the road, it's "clear the decks, proles,
I'm HERE!".

If the gov't and society is really wanting to do something about the p-plate
lemmings, they need to tackle this attitude.
Putting the buggers on a skid pan with some models of people to smash into
would help, I think.  Most drivers don't deal well with a loss of traction,
and this early experience of it might sober them up a bit and expose them to
their limitations before it happens on the open road.

you can make a skid pan anywhere: car park with some detergeant and water.

It's road rage, pure and simple, and needs to be vigorously policed as
such, along with all other driver behaviour that comes into the same
category.

Since policing isn't likely to be profitable (in monetary terms at
least) we can probably expect a long wait.

What's worse is it's a really bad idea (the method, not the act, though
one might argue both).

I know a person or two who tried suicide via car into tree and survived,
and their life thereafter was 10 billion times more f.cked (with things
like prosthetic limbs, and a glass eye that weeped and fell out
regularly, learning to walk and talk again.

In article <459063de$0$11211$61c65585@uv-55king-reader-
01.melbourne.pipenetworks.com.au>, "atec77 "@hotmail.com says...

Why don't they stand in the way of shoppers at a major retail store
Boxing day sale.

Al