Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / February 2007
Is a Manual Car more Economical than an Auto Car?
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norak - 24 Feb 2007 12:07 GMT I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car the Epica. With a manual you get fuel efficiency of 8.2L/100km but with auto you get something like 9.1L/100km. Also, auto cars are usually about $2000 more expensive than manual cars.
However, if even though there may be a $2000 price premium on auto cars, if you look for second-hand cars this price premium may shrink to the point where it is negligible. Furthermore, when you want to resell your car then dealers prefer auto cars because consumers tend to want auto cars. Therefore, having auto can increase resale value. Putting all this together auto may not be more expensive than manual but the difference is that manual is more difficult to drive than auto.
Jonno - 24 Feb 2007 12:26 GMT > I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Putting all this together auto may not be more expensive than manual > but the difference is that manual is more difficult to drive than auto. Deepends, a lot of auto's now come with "lockup", and that would save some gas on long runs. But the alternate small cars, with manual gear change, are usually more economical and practical around the city. Mind you the small cars on long runs are even more economical, if you can stand the vibrations which a big car soaks up.
David Z - 24 Feb 2007 12:52 GMT >I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car > the Epica. With a manual you get fuel efficiency of 8.2L/100km but > with auto you get something like 9.1L/100km. That difference is largely due to the automatic Epica being equipped with a larger 2.5L engine, while the manual has only a 2.0L.
Marco - 24 Feb 2007 22:05 GMT > That difference is largely due to the automatic Epica being equipped with a > larger 2.5L engine, while the manual has only a 2.0L. You can get the 2.0 Epica as an auto as well, but I don't know if the 9.1l/100km figure is for the 2.0 or the 2.5.
Marco
David Z - 25 Feb 2007 03:22 GMT >> That difference is largely due to the automatic Epica being equipped with >> a >> larger 2.5L engine, while the manual has only a 2.0L. > > You can get the 2.0 Epica as an auto as well, but I don't know if the > 9.1l/100km figure is for the 2.0 or the 2.5. No, you can't. There are only 3 Epica models: 2.0CDX manual, 2.5 CDX auto, and 2.5 CDXi auto.
Jason James - 25 Feb 2007 16:50 GMT > >I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That difference is largely due to the automatic Epica being equipped with a > larger 2.5L engine, while the manual has only a 2.0L. It is true modern automatics are more economical, what with lock-up torque convertors, but in the final analysis energy is consumed by automatic transmissions (e.g. torque convertor slippage), and this is dissapated as heat in the trans-fluid which is cooled by the trans oil-cooler mounted within the bottom tank of the car's radiator.
Jason
the_dawggie - 27 Feb 2007 07:16 GMT > > >I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > > > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > heat in the trans-fluid which is cooled by the trans oil-cooler mounted > within the bottom tank of the car's radiator. Which especially would suck in auto Hilux Smurfs with partially dodgy radiators as a friend in Perth found out, and noted some design changes needed _before_ the engine overheated too much.
Jason James - 27 Feb 2007 16:36 GMT > > > >I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > > > > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > noted some design changes needed _before_ the engine > overheated too much. Yep,..if I had an automatic 4WD, the first after-market mod I'd do, would be to add an extra auto-trans oil cooler with its own fan, 'cause airflow at rock-crawling speeds is too low.
Jason
Noddy - 24 Feb 2007 13:57 GMT >I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car > the Epica. With a manual you get fuel efficiency of 8.2L/100km but > with auto you get something like 9.1L/100km. Also, auto cars are > usually about $2000 more expensive than manual cars. The short answer is that automatic equipped vehicles use more fuel than manual equipped ones all else being equal.
> However, if even though there may be a $2000 price premium on auto > cars, if you look for second-hand cars this price premium may shrink > to the point where it is negligible. Furthermore, when you want to > resell your car then dealers prefer auto cars because consumers tend > to want auto cars. Therefore, having auto can increase resale value. That depends entirely on the vehicle in question.
Some, like Commodores and Falcons for example, tend to command a higher used price for manual versions rather than automatics. The same could most likely be said of any vehicle with a "sporty" image.
> Putting all this together auto may not be more expensive than manual > but the difference is that manual is more difficult to drive than auto. Personally, I don't think there's anything "difficult" about driving a manual, but they're a pain in the arse to drive period. I'm quite happy to let the box decide what gear it wants to be in for "around town" driving, and I'm often amused by comments of "I like to do the gear changing myself" or "drivers have no control over an auto".
Manuals are quite okay in performance cars that get driven hard, but for daily commuter stuff why would you bother?
-- Regards, Noddy.
David Z - 24 Feb 2007 14:19 GMT >>I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can >> achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Manuals are quite okay in performance cars that get driven hard, but for > daily commuter stuff why would you bother? This is the ONLY thing I have heard you say to date that makes any sense.
Noddy - 24 Feb 2007 23:06 GMT > This is the ONLY thing I have heard you say to date that makes any sense. Unlike your good self, where every comment that comes from you only serves to show what a clueless numbnutted c.nt you are :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
Jonno - 24 Feb 2007 20:56 GMT >> I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can >> achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. Manuals allow 1) better speed control of vehicle when slowing down and accelerating 2) better fuel economy, unless you have lockup 3) if you can drive a manual you can drive any car 4) Auto's have better resale value 5) Autos are more reliable 6) Manauls are easier to fix, but clutches are a 80/100 K repair job 7) Autos cost more to repair 9) Manuals are a better towing vehicle (watch the arguments here) 10) Overheating is less of a problem as a rule when towing. 11) frustration in heavy traffic 12) the wife or girlfriend to drive the "Other" car if they dont know manuals. (Very sneaky)
PS the reason why auto's sometimes have a larger engine is because its a sale plus, but they dont tell you its because they have less power available to the wheels due to converter slippage some 10 % less. And of course increased fuel consumption.
Noddy - 24 Feb 2007 23:13 GMT > Manuals allow > 1) better speed control of vehicle when slowing down and accelerating Only if you don't know how to drive an auto :)
> 2) better fuel economy, unless you have lockup Better fuel economy period. Lockup or otherwise.
> 3) if you can drive a manual you can drive any car Yeah, right :)
> 4) Auto's have better resale value That's totally car dependent.
A manual Falcadore will generally command more money than an auto version.
> 5) Autos are more reliable You need to get out more :)
> 6) Manauls are easier to fix, but clutches are a 80/100 K repair job I had a clutch last 420k km's in a Mitsubishi van.
> 7) Autos cost more to repair On average.
> 9) Manuals are a better towing vehicle (watch the arguments here) Oddly enough, Holden & Ford recommend *auto's* for towing in their owner's manuals :)
> 10) Overheating is less of a problem as a rule when towing. With a manual? Crap.
> 11) frustration in heavy traffic Agreed :)
> 12) the wife or girlfriend to drive the "Other" car if they dont know > manuals. (Very sneaky) If your wife or girlfriend can't drive a manual, then they can't drive.
> PS the reason why auto's sometimes have a larger engine is because its a > sale plus, but they dont tell you its because they have less power > available to the wheels due to converter slippage some 10 % less. And of > course increased fuel consumption. Not many car's that I can think of have bigger engines just for the auto version, but then I only just got out of bed and am still half asleep.
-- Regards, Noddy.
mark jb - 25 Feb 2007 10:14 GMT >> 6) Manauls are easier to fix, but clutches are a 80/100 K repair job > > I had a clutch last 420k km's in a Mitsubishi van. Learn to drive, grandpa.
:) -mark
Scotty - 25 Feb 2007 10:17 GMT >>> 6) Manauls are easier to fix, but clutches are a 80/100 K repair job >> >> I had a clutch last 420k km's in a Mitsubishi van. 420,000kms. Either they replaced a few clutches at the dealer services without telling you or your lying through your teeth.
Noddy - 25 Feb 2007 11:39 GMT > 420,000kms. Either they replaced a few clutches at the dealer services > without telling you or your lying through your teeth. Nice try, but no cigar for you :)
I bought it when it was around 2 years old with 60 odd thousand km's on the dial, and got rid of it when it hit almost 450k km's many years later when it was near death. In all those years the only time it ever went near a dealer was to pick up parts, an it spent most of it's life as a roadside service & breakdown vehicle. It did the almost 400,000km's on it's original clutch, *and* original rear brake shoes, and at the time I "offed" it the only real thing wrong with it was the body & interior.
mechanically it was fine, and still going well.
It was an SF Series Mitsubishi Express, and they're quite well known for being reliable vehicles.
At the time that I owned that, my old man had one which had a trailer full of builder's tools permanently attached to it which weighed around a tonne and a half, and that did well over 300,000km's with just one clutch replacement in that time. That vehicle was purchased brand new, and never saw a dealer's service department in it's life.
The one he had prior to that was an earlier model (the same vehicle just 5 years older), which was also purchased new, and that did close to the same mileage on it's original clutch and rear brake shoes. It used to average around 80k km's out of a set of front pads, and apart from regular servicing not one of them ever had a mechanical problem.
-- Regards, Noddy.
Jonno - 25 Feb 2007 12:27 GMT >> 420,000kms. Either they replaced a few clutches at the dealer services >> without telling you or your lying through your teeth. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Design engineers at Mitsubishi didnt always know what they were doing, or it could be the sales team influencing them later on, but to make a clutch last this long is almost unheard of.
Noddy - 25 Feb 2007 20:00 GMT > Design engineers at Mitsubishi didnt always know what they were doing, or > it could be the sales team influencing them later on, but to make a clutch > last this long is almost unheard of. Not really.
I've known plenty of vehicles with clutches that have lasted for very long times, and in particular light commercials. This shouldn't be confused with a lot of today's cars that have friction materials as soft as sponge cake.
-- Regards, Noddy.
JD - 25 Feb 2007 20:23 GMT nospam wrote:
>> Design engineers at Mitsubishi didnt always know what they were doing, or >> it could be the sales team influencing them later on, but to make a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. In my experience clutch longevity is far more dependent on driver and driving conditions than the manufacturer. My current clutch has been going for around 300,000km (Landrover).
JD
Noddy - 25 Feb 2007 21:19 GMT > In my experience clutch longevity is far more dependent on driver and > driving conditions than the manufacturer. My current clutch has been going > for around 300,000km (Landrover). Yeah, I didn't think the clutch life my old man & I got was staggeringly brilliant, but then again both of us knew how to drive a manual like you obviously do. Clutches are simple "on-off" devices, yet a lot of people use them like variable grip tools, and they're the ones who have short life clutches.
-- Regards, Noddy.
JD - 25 Feb 2007 21:43 GMT nospam wrote:
>> In my experience clutch longevity is far more dependent on driver and >> driving conditions than the manufacturer. My current clutch has been [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. yes - I have a son who can reduce the life of any clutch to about 30,000km or less, despite my best efforts at education!
JD
Clockmeister - 25 Feb 2007 22:30 GMT >> In my experience clutch longevity is far more dependent on driver and >> driving conditions than the manufacturer. My current clutch has been [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > use them like variable grip tools, and they're the ones who have short > life clutches. I get good life out of mine despite the fact that the clutch is used a fair bit for braking as well. (not handbraking, slowing down!) ;-)
John McKenzie - 26 Feb 2007 05:27 GMT > I get good life out of mine despite the fact that the clutch is used a fair > bit for braking as well. (not handbraking, slowing down!) ;-) realistically speaking, if the driver is even half way skilled, the engine rpms will match clutch rpms prior to lifting the left leg, so the wear is negligible for downshifts.
I do know people that will hit the clutch then go from 4-1 and hold the clutch in till just before a sharp corner. the input shaft likely hits 12,000rpm when they do it, and I can't imagine it's too good for #1 synchro (esp since no throttle blip, which would be ineffective 4-1 anyway)
 Signature John McKenzie
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atec 77 - 26 Feb 2007 05:49 GMT >> I get good life out of mine despite the fact that the clutch is used a fair >> bit for braking as well. (not handbraking, slowing down!) ;-) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > synchro (esp since no throttle blip, which would be ineffective 4-1 > anyway) When I was earning my articulated ticket a few years ago the bloke who was teaching me used to "SMACK" the back of my head if I went for the clutch between starting and stopping ... only got me a couple of times before I developed a flinch on changes
Dan--- - 26 Feb 2007 06:16 GMT >> I get good life out of mine despite the fact that the clutch is used a >> fair bit for braking as well. (not handbraking, slowing down!) ;-) > > realistically speaking, if the driver is even half way skilled, the engine > rpms will match clutch rpms prior to lifting the left leg, so the wear is > negligible for downshifts. As in rev matching? I have got that habit since driving road ranger crash truck boxes. :-)
> I do know people that will hit the clutch then go from 4-1 and hold the > clutch in till just before a sharp corner. the input shaft likely hits > 12,000rpm when they do it, and I can't imagine it's too good for #1 > synchro (esp since no throttle blip, which would be ineffective 4-1 > anyway) Arg nasty.
 Signature Regards Dan
Patrick - 26 Feb 2007 07:22 GMT >> In my experience clutch longevity is far more dependent on driver and >> driving conditions than the manufacturer. My current clutch has been going [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. My 300zx turbo was on it's original clutch when I sold it at 278 000 km. And that was running 13 psi more boost than standard and featuring clutch slipping takeoffs whenever "necessary".
It was a commuter in Sydney too.
Mind you, it was starting to slip a bit towards the end, if I launched on full boost up hill. (Other than up hill, full boost would just wheelspin so I would have the feather the throttle.)
Clockmeister - 25 Feb 2007 22:29 GMT >>> 420,000kms. Either they replaced a few clutches at the dealer services >>> without telling you or your lying through your teeth. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > it could be the sales team influencing them later on, but to make a clutch > last this long is almost unheard of. Not really.
My Fathers Daewoo Cielo was still going on it's original clutch at nearly 400,000km when the engine finally expired and it was driven into the city 5 days a week.
The Hiace camper we had years ago did similar mileage and never had to have a clutch replaced and that was a pretty heavy vehicle.
Noddy - 25 Feb 2007 11:27 GMT > Learn to drive, grandpa. > > :) Lol :) It did it on it's standard rear brake shoes as well, and the thing didn't exactly get treated with any respect :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
Marco - 24 Feb 2007 22:13 GMT > Personally, I don't think there's anything "difficult" about driving a > manual, but they're a pain in the arse to drive period. I'm quite happy to > let the box decide what gear it wants to be in for "around town" driving, > and I'm often amused by comments of "I like to do the gear changing myself" > or "drivers have no control over an auto". In my Dad's old VP SS for example, I had no problem with the auto box. Similarly, with the VE SS auto I drove when I was buying mine, the gearbox was pretty good at choosing the right gear. Dad's Vectra, though, is almost always in too high a gear for my liking and then changes down too many gears at once when all you want is a little more power. I also don't like the idea of an auto changing gears mid corner or at other times when I'd rather hold a gear, and I hate the way that, for example, if I'm putting my foot down a bit in say third and need to back off momentarily, the auto box will change up immediately and then have to change back down when I resume accelerating. The manual will stay in third because I put it there.
However, if I lived in Sydney still and was mad enough to drive to work in peak traffic, I'd consider an auto car. But I'm not, so that doesn't matter.
> Manuals are quite okay in performance cars that get driven hard, but for > daily commuter stuff why would you bother? I get bored in autos, so that's one reason to have a manual as a daily commuter.
Marco
Noddy - 24 Feb 2007 23:15 GMT > I get bored in autos, so that's one reason to have a manual as a daily > commuter. Fair call.
However I'd add that I'd find daily commuter driving boring, and a manual trans wouldn;t make it any more enjoyable for mine.
-- Regards, Noddy.
D Walford - 25 Feb 2007 01:45 GMT > I get bored in autos, so that's one reason to have a manual as a daily > commuter. You should drive my DAF then, you would never be bored with a 16spd manual:-)
Daryl
Jason James - 25 Feb 2007 14:25 GMT > In my Dad's old VP SS for example, I had no problem with the auto > box. Similarly, with the VE SS auto I drove when I was buying mine, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I get bored in autos, so that's one reason to have a manual as a daily > commuter. Indeed,...the best auto I have driven is an FMX equipped Ford 5.8L. These transmissions have a lock feature on 2nd gear, which means if you want to take-off in 2nd gear, you can. The car essentially becomes "Powerglide" or 2 speed auto equipped altho you need to shift the T-bar to drive. This reduces wear and tear, and gives good "squirt" performance while the rest of the traffic are stuffing around in 1st>2nd gear changes.
OTOH, modern long intake runner 4 and 6 cyl engines have increased torque down low considerably. This means you change down less (manual or auto). In the final analysis tho, city traffic is best negotiated with an auto. On the highway, lock-up TCs means economy will be close to a manual.
Jason
John McKenzie - 26 Feb 2007 05:25 GMT > Indeed,...the best auto I have driven is an FMX equipped Ford 5.8L. These > transmissions have a lock feature on 2nd gear, which means if you want to > take-off in 2nd gear, you can. The car essentially becomes "Powerglide" or 2 > speed auto equipped altho you need to shift the T-bar to drive. This reduces > wear and tear, out of curiousity - know what it's actually for? taking off deliberately in snow or icy conditions. It's not the only US dino auto that does it, but I'm f.cked if I can remember what else. borgwarner designed if I recall?
 Signature John McKenzie
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Jason James - 26 Feb 2007 06:24 GMT > > Indeed,...the best auto I have driven is an FMX equipped Ford 5.8L. These > > transmissions have a lock feature on 2nd gear, which means if you want to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but I'm f.cked if I can remember what else. borgwarner designed if I > recall? They were the reasons I was aware of too. The extra torque (back then) could produce too much wheel-spin in slippery conditions. Great feature for the serial 100yd traffic light dashs,..no appreciable wear on the trans.. The FMX I think is a BW variant, as it has a C? designation IIRC from posts in this group.
Jason
Ron - 26 Feb 2007 07:07 GMT >> Indeed,...the best auto I have driven is an FMX equipped Ford 5.8L. >> These transmissions have a lock feature on 2nd gear, which means if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that does it, but I'm f.cked if I can remember what else. borgwarner > designed if I recall? The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G have that stupid feature. It was the first thing I through out in my 420G.
Ron
John McKenzie - 26 Feb 2007 12:17 GMT > The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G have > that stupid feature. It was the first thing I through out in my 420G. I thought the first thing thrown out would be all the money in the wallet and bank account, when maintaining the bastard :)
 Signature John McKenzie
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Noddy - 26 Feb 2007 12:26 GMT > I thought the first thing thrown out would be all the money in the > wallet and bank account, when maintaining the bastard :) He's here all week folks :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
atec 77 - 26 Feb 2007 12:57 GMT >> The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G have >> that stupid feature. It was the first thing I through out in my 420G. > > I thought the first thing thrown out would be all the money in the > wallet and bank account, when maintaining the bastard :) My 420 has not moved in some weeks , its happy under cover and I have engine parts stored under it all the while appreciating in value ( so I am told)
Noddy - 26 Feb 2007 20:07 GMT "atec 77" <""atec77 \"@ hotmail.com"> wrote in message news:45e2d958$0$1146$61c65585@un-2park-reader-
> My 420 has not moved in some weeks , So it's being a typical Jag then :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
John McKenzie - 27 Feb 2007 03:29 GMT atec, 77, > wrote:
> >> The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G have > >> that stupid feature. It was the first thing I through out in my 420G. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > engine parts stored under it all the while appreciating in value ( so I > am told) were you told it was raindrops on your back by the same bloke?
 Signature John McKenzie
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atec 77 - 27 Feb 2007 05:32 GMT > atec, 77, > wrote: >>>> The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > were you told it was raindrops on your back by the same bloke? Nah his name wernt jhonny.
Ron - 27 Feb 2007 06:17 GMT atec 77 <""atec77 \"@ hotmail.com"> wrote in news:45e3c252$0$1155$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com. au:
>> atec, 77, > wrote: >>>>> The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> > Nah his name wernt jhonny. Value is climbing steadily now, as they become scarce and more popular. In the USA they are bringing top dollar.
atec 77 - 27 Feb 2007 06:28 GMT > atec 77 <""atec77 \"@ hotmail.com"> wrote in > news:45e3c252$0$1155$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Value is climbing steadily now, as they become scarce and more popular. > In the USA they are bringing top dollar. Well aware of that , might have to send another to the panel shop shortly as its worth increases.
Fraser Johnston - 28 Feb 2007 12:45 GMT >>> The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G have >>> that stupid feature. It was the first thing I through out in my 420G. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My 420 has not moved in some weeks , its happy under cover and I have engine > parts stored under it all the while appreciating in value ( so I am told) Over here we call it rusting.
Fraser
Noddy - 28 Feb 2007 19:58 GMT > Over here we call it rusting. Lol :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
Ron - 26 Feb 2007 20:29 GMT >> The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G have >> that stupid feature. It was the first thing I through out in my 420G. > > I thought the first thing thrown out would be all the money in the > wallet and bank account, when maintaining the bastard :) Since I restored it a few years back, maintaining it is quite cheap. Oil, filters and so far, a battery :-)
Jason James - 26 Feb 2007 16:51 GMT > >> Indeed,...the best auto I have driven is an FMX equipped Ford 5.8L. > >> These transmissions have a lock feature on 2nd gear, which means if [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The bloody BW8 as fitted to Daimler Limousines and Jaguar MKX-420G have > that stupid feature. It was the first thing I through out in my 420G. I agree, Ron, that in most situations it is of little use, but if your engine has bags of torque, you can use the feature with one gear-change eliminated (1>2) and the associated wear which come with that, especially with an old box you're trying to "save" from a recon. Driving around town in the Ford, I rarely use 1st gear,..there's no point.
Jason
Dan--- - 26 Feb 2007 05:54 GMT > I get bored in autos, so that's one reason to have a manual as a daily > commuter. When I eventually do get around getting a VE SS-V first thing getting dumped is the factory fitted clutch for a Textralia clutch. :-)
 Signature Regards Dan
atec 77 - 26 Feb 2007 06:01 GMT >> I get bored in autos, so that's one reason to have a manual as a daily >> commuter. > > When I eventually do get around getting a VE SS-V first thing getting > dumped is the factory fitted clutch for a Textralia clutch. :-) Why not wear it out first ? wont take long .
Dan--- - 26 Feb 2007 06:33 GMT >>> I get bored in autos, so that's one reason to have a manual as a daily >>> commuter. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why not wear it out first ? > wont take long . No point to keeping the factory fitted one really. As with the factory PCM tune as well that would be gone as well.
 Signature Regards Dan
RainbowWarrior - 24 Feb 2007 22:14 GMT > Personally, I don't think there's anything "difficult" about driving a > manual, but they're a pain in the arse to drive period. I'm quite happy to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Manuals are quite okay in performance cars that get driven hard, but for > daily commuter stuff why would you bother? But I do like changing gears myself :) Can be in a lazy chuggit mod or a scream the valves out of it mood, can't do same in an auto :)
the_dawggie - 26 Feb 2007 06:15 GMT > Manuals are quite okay in performance cars that get driven hard, but for > daily commuter stuff why would you bother? Manual does not worry me, don't really think about it, unless you can't decide to grab what is in the cup holder, or change gears at the same time. Neither of which you should be doing at the same time, however tends to piss one off if you try it, so it's all good and keeps one awake.
Auto would not be appropriate for me, I've got 5 speed + reverse + low range. That's around 12 possible settings.
I think at various times I've used all of them.
Noddy - 26 Feb 2007 11:10 GMT "the_dawggie" <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Auto would not be appropriate for me, I've got > 5 speed + reverse + low range. That's around 12 > possible settings. I've only got two less than that in the Jeep, and I don't have to f.ck around with a third pedal. Fair trade off to me.
> I think at various times I've used all of them. I never will :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
Just JT - 27 Feb 2007 00:55 GMT > Manuals are quite okay in performance cars that get driven hard, but for > daily commuter stuff why would you bother? ~~~~~~~~~~ The small cars with autos are truly gutless. The manual versions of the same are tolerable...
-- Plus.the.small.car.autos.are.forever.hunting.for.the.right.gear
Noddy - 27 Feb 2007 08:39 GMT > The small cars with autos are truly gutless. The manual versions of the > same > are tolerable... Clearly you have absolutely no experience in this field whatsoever :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
Just JT - 27 Feb 2007 23:26 GMT >> The small cars with autos are truly gutless. The manual versions of the >> same >> are tolerable... > > Clearly you have absolutely no experience in this field whatsoever :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've driven an automatic subcompact car which continually hunted for the right gear.
-- And.did.0-100kph.in.3.days
Noddy - 28 Feb 2007 01:52 GMT > I've driven an automatic subcompact car which continually hunted for the > right gear. Oh, and that clearly makes them all the same, right?
Drive a few versions of the *same* car with different transmission options and get back to us with your results. As far as modern cars go, there's not a lot in it between manual and automatic transmissions in general.
-- Regards, Noddy.
Just JT - 28 Feb 2007 10:44 GMT >> I've driven an automatic subcompact car which continually hunted for the >> right gear. > > Oh, and that clearly makes them all the same, right? ~~~~~~~~~~ Of course not. Some models have bad autos, full stop.
> Drive a few versions of the *same* car with different transmission options > and get back to us with your results. As far as modern cars go, there's > not a lot in it between manual and automatic transmissions in general. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ But clearly doesn't make them all the same.
-- Not.all.cars.have.good.autos.
> -- > Regards, > Noddy. Marco - 24 Feb 2007 22:07 GMT > I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Putting all this together auto may not be more expensive than manual > but the difference is that manual is more difficult to drive than auto. Depends really. For instance, most SS Commodores are sold as autos, but the sort of people who buy them secondhand - younger drivers, mostly - tend to prefer them as manuals. Lots of people prefer manual small cars too. I'd agree with you if you had something like a manual Camry though, given that nobody who is vaguely interested in cars would buy one so Camry buyers would overwhelmingly prefer autos.
Marco
DAvid - 24 Feb 2007 23:26 GMT >I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > achieve better fuel efficiency. Agreed, providing all things are equal such as driver habits.
Take for example Holden's medium car
> the Epica. With a manual you get fuel efficiency of 8.2L/100km but > with auto you get something like 9.1L/100km. Also, auto cars are > usually about $2000 more expensive than manual cars. Agreed, although the difference is not usually THAT great. $2,000 more expensive in most cars is about right except the Falcon and Commodores.
> However, if even though there may be a $2000 price premium on auto > cars, if you look for second-hand cars this price premium may shrink > to the point where it is negligible. Furthermore, when you want to > resell your car then dealers prefer auto cars because consumers tend > to want auto cars. Therefore, having auto can increase resale value. This is an argumentive point with me.Recently, I sold an automatic Elantra and was told by the same salesman who sold it to me that the autos don't really fetch that much more on trade. When I reminded him that when he sold it to me that he said I should buy the auto over the manual because the resale value of the auto will more than compensate the extra at new price when trading, he just shrugged his shoulders and said it only applied to certain cars.
> Putting all this together auto may not be more expensive than manual > but the difference is that manual is more difficult to drive than auto. My other car is a 6sp manual Ford Typhoon which has a very hard clutch on it and in Brisbane City driving is a pain over the autos. However to have manual control over such a powerful beast is well worth the inconvenience of a strong clutch. My points I would like to mention here as opposed to one another are... 1. I don't like autos with cruise control switched on. The reason? If you are going up a hill and around a bend the gears change down so quickly to maintain speed, it could be construed as being dangerous. A manual is much more sedate (and safer) in the same situation. 2. In most 4cyl autos when you are passing a car and you accelerate even only slightly, the down change of gears is usually by two (on a 4sp auto) and the subsequent lack of acceleration and engine revving is somewhat discerning especially if you only wanted it to change down 1 gear. 3. A car like my Typhoon will appeal to some as a manual and others would prefer it as an auto. Usually the younger drivers with such a car would prefer the manual, whilst the older baby boomers would prefer the auto. 4. A car like my ex Elantra would mainly appeal to older drivers, therefore the auto SHOULD give a better resale value. 5. My replacement of the Elantra was a Honda CRV automatic and whilst I was somewhat concerned about the effectiveness of an auto in 4WD conditions, I found it to be perfectly tuned for sand and other 4WD use. However it also suffers from the same problem as in #1 of my list yet as it is a 5sp auto, it doesn't suffer the same condition as #2 and I am much more comfortable with it.
To get back to your original question, it has been a well known and documented fact that manual vehicles give better fuel economy especially models of years ago. However, todays much more sophisticated (computerised) equipped vehicles have reduced the margin substantially.
I hope this info is of some benefit to you and others.
DAVO
D Walford - 25 Feb 2007 01:41 GMT > I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Putting all this together auto may not be more expensive than manual > but the difference is that manual is more difficult to drive than auto. It really depends on how each manufacturer has set up the overall gearing on manual and auto models. If gearing is the same then in most conditions there shouldn't be a lot of difference. On 2001 Corolla's a manual trans was more economical for city driving but less economical on the hwy. This is due to overall gearing, the auto is geared higher so its revving less at hwy speeds but the lower geared manual gets it off the line easier so it uses less.
Daryl
Scotty - 25 Feb 2007 09:48 GMT >I was told that when driving a car with manual transmission you can > achieve better fuel efficiency. Take for example Holden's medium car [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > but the difference is that manual is more difficult to drive than auto. >3 Nope, not always The 3.6V6 Rodeo that I have is rated worse than the auto, as is the Hilux range.
Autos these days are pretty damn good as the motors can be kept at a constant optimum rev range where a manual take a lot to do that. (And its boring as hell trying to do it so ya just fang the crap out of em anyway!)
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