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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / June 2007Dealer delivery charges - yeuch
Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much is pure profit, that can therefore be haggled away? I haven't been around the new car market for a long while, and was expecting to see maybe a few hundred dollars (silly me), but I see $1700 seems to be around the mark??? Jeez.. given that it seems this charge is all about someone's time to do a few odd cleanup jobs on the car and maybe a little bit of running around getting rego arranged, I can't see it adding up to that. Jeez. I have never understood this charge... I think I'll offer to drop by the warehouse, pick it up myself, unwrap the seats, peel off the protective paint wrap, etc, etc... (O: > Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle > room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much > is pure profit, that can therefore be haggled away? 100% of the dealer delivery fee is profit. That's what it's for :) > I have never understood this charge... I think I'll offer to drop by > the warehouse, pick it up myself, unwrap the seats, peel off the > protective paint wrap, etc, etc... (O: The dealer delivery fee is (allegedly) designed to give dealers a trading profit in car sales. It was first introduced after dealers complained that they made very little money on the actual sales of new cars (which they generally don't unless you're talking about exotics), and as new cars came delivered to the dealer needed a fair amount of preparation work before it was handed over to the customer it was deemed necessary for them to make something on this. However, like anything it gets out of hand as time goes by. 1500 bucks is the average these days (although you've been quoted 1700), and that's a fair whack of money to do a pre-delivery inspection, give it a quick wash & polish with the cheapest sh.t they can buy in bulk and screw the number plates on. As far as I'm concerned, if a dealership has a service department (which is where the *real* money is made, and why most of them see selling new cars as a means to getting them into the workshop), they should be legally forced to offer the cars to potential customers at cost :) -- Regards, Noddy. >1500 bucks is the average these days (although you've been quoted 1700), and >that's a fair whack of money to do a pre-delivery inspection, give it a >quick wash & polish with the cheapest sh.t they can buy in bulk and screw >the number plates on. Who pays the transport costs? Where I am they all come to the dealer on the back of a truck, often from interstate, which must cost heaps in the more distant parts. Irrespective of who pays the trucky the cost must pass on to the dealer even though the dealer delivery fee seems to be comparable throughout Oz ($1795 on the last one I bought). Might even be some cross subsidising involved as I'm an awful lot further from the local manufacturers (and importers) than most.  SignatureJohn H John_H blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: > Might even be some cross subsidising involved as I'm an awful lot > further from the local manufacturers (and importers) than most. There is. Cuntry dealers pay well less for their stock than Scity dealers. A fair bit of how this works is explained by the carry on about knowing where you live when you enquire about a car:-) It's not just about franchise areas. I'm inclined to start yet another sh.t-fight about so-called margins at about this point. But I won't ;-) > John_H blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > But I won't ;-) This certainly was not the case up to the 90's with the brands I worked with same margin as the city dealers + transport was our cost. actually I find your statement very hard to believe. borrie blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: >> John_H blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > same margin as the city dealers + transport was our cost. actually I find > your statement very hard to believe. Nooo!!! I'll go right out and top myself. Glad you disagree with me. Something in the human psyche has to explain constant wars. But go ahead and test the statement - go try to enquire about a car from a dealer well away from where you live. ie, in another dealers territory, and tell that dealer where you actually live. See how you go. As for the country dealers getting a better slice/bigger 'rebate cheque'/whatever - take it or leave it. For what it's worth, I reckon even the dealers mistress and accountants aren't even told about the caper. > borrie blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > For what it's worth, I reckon even the dealers mistress and accountants > aren't even told about the caper. Tony is this just a theory of yours or do you have evidence that it is true? borrie blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: >> borrie blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> > Tony is this just a theory of yours or do you have evidence that it is true? Ahah!! The old produce the evidence call.... OK, here's a shot or two. And some .blather just for fun. Please be advised that I don't give a sh.t about whether I'm 'believed' or not. Neither do I regard absence of evidence as no evidence - or evidence, for that matter - it's just absence of evidence. The franchise area one is definite. Tested by asking for quotes on several occasions at country dealers in both NSW and QLD and watching the result when they found out I wasn't from 'around there'. I found out from one dealer that if I bought a PO box in his town - god knows how, but I guess he knew the Postmaster - he'd sell me a car no worries. Quite cheap cf a metro dealers price at the time, BTW - make of that what you will. The rebate caper is top secret. But do think carefully about the real expense of running a dealership and compare that to the pittance the bastards claim they get per vehicle. All that bunting, lighting, advertising spreads in the national//state/local dailies twice a week - the incessant chatter into the classifieds etc etc. Not even a world champeenship rip-off workshop could make up the difference and believe me, I've seen a few 'contenders'. maybe the manufacturers pay fro the ads? How so? - paying for their dealers to compete against each other? Smacks of RRP then, big time - 'cause the prices are all the same;-) I've also posted details from the public record here about what a car actually cost a dealer - an imported one at that - and that was in the region of 40% of the RRP. I have to say, the RRP of the machines involved wasn't unduly hyped either in a comparative sense. That was the one and only time those numbers have appeared - ever. Needless to say, I jumped on that. This stuff is soo secret squirrel and we have to give pause to remember that only ONE dealer in this country ever opened his trap on the matter in a semi-public forum - and it was under extreme duress, too. It has to be said, that what I call Scams may in fact be legitimate business practice:-) As with rubber prices. Ferinstance in an outfit I was associated with many moons ago, the discount structure - and it was simply that - had discounts from 10% all the way to 60%. That's a hell of a difference in that there legitimate business practice. The guys on the 10% would have been extremely interested to find out who the f.ck was getting the 60% cut, but I guess they were too thick to figure out that some of the higher discount shysters were able to sell to these 10 to 20% guys cheaper than the main company and still pocket an appreciable shot. Of course, that makes it a Scam. Does it not? I mean aside from the fact that a manufacturer could actually afford to dish up a 60%!!!!! discount, that is. Ain't mass production a marvellous thing:-) But I digress. Here's a brief guide on how to play: If you're say, considering a motor dealer Scam ambit, pause to consider the antecedents of the motor dealer Scams. That's right, the horse trade. And then consider the 'newest' industry. Information Technology. The same Scams have been and are run for all three, and of course many more. The classic fully witnessed one I noted in IT was the Rebate Cheque gag. At the end of the month, a guy walks into the IT (retail) dealer and hands him an envelope. In it is a cheque for "x". That "x" is a rebate from the wholesaler, AND the manufacturers, of the stuff he sold that month. The more he sells, the bigger the cheque, of course. Note that it's not even put in the post, or entrusted to a courier. natch, there's also a cheque from other wholesalers involved - the same scheme applies. Whoever has the best scheme of course gets to sell more of their stuff. not this gets interesting. You and I can walk into the guys shop and be offered 'amazing prices' - bugger-all more than he (the guy with the shop, I mean) actually pays. We feel good and forget to reflect on the fact that the guy couldn't even pay the electricity bill with his profits if he sold a lot of stuff at these 'amazing prices'. But of course he manages. This is identical to the scene where you get in there with the money guy at the motor dealer. That's right, he's the only one with Internet access, (so you can do a direct credit of the moola,) direct line to (or office right beside) the Dealer Principal, and no pie stains on the tie. He gets to eat with real cutlery, this guy, and he might even have an accountancy qualification. unless the mines need them too;-) Anyhow, he'll show you that getting that extra 200 bucks off the price of that 33,000 buck chariot will actually send the dealer to the wall. Hell, that 200 bucks might even be the 15% of the extras the salesman Scams off, but it won't work - the whole world rests on that 200 bucks. You see, he's arguing about something completely different to the RealDeal. (It's just like JustJT's technique of throwing a strawman into the ring, or pissing about arguing about different speed limits instead of whether there should be any of the damm things posted at all:-)) Anyhow, in all confidence, he'll show you some stock sheets which purport to represent the invoice price to the dealer of the stock. He won 't mention that the while shebang is most often on floor plan, and that the dealer NEVER actually buys a new car at all - 'cept for the demo's, maybe. He also won't tell you which of the cars on the lot are coming up to (err, is that still) 90 Days after which interest rates are hiked and the dealer starts to pay 'real' money as interest on the stock. But he will tell you that can can be a little cheaper than the one you actually want, and offer no reason other than the fact that it's build date is close to 6 month back - or more. Of course, the IT Game has become a little better at these Scams - time marches on - and the whole fucken industry is set up as a sort of permanent Scam. This one works a little like the motor industry planned obsolescence and supercession game, only better. It's where the car mob want to be, too. Think about buying a processor cheap, a few months after a new set of the bastard things is released. Bugger me if there are no old ones left!! How can that be? They MUST HAVE had excess stock, somewhere. Like the car game, did they discount the things clean out the door to go to zero stock on release of the new items. Unlikely - that'd be a problem, because like cars, at once the customers would hold out for the new stuff, because it simply has to be bigger and better than the old stuff. Otherwise there'd be no reason to build the new stuff, right? Easy. The companies that assemble the Mass Market machines have bought them all up. The only way you'll get one of those processors is to buy a MM machine and cop a shite video system and a tiny little HDD. Not to mention a system cunningly built-in to continually remind you what a sucker you've been by plastering so-called manufacturers self-promoting shite all over your screen at every opportunity. Just like that idiotic emblem on the steering wheel hub on your car, come to think of it. But you can get one that's almost as the same as the last model, only with a little more 'cache', for just a few bucks more than the processor you had your eye on for about 12 months. Like about double to triple the inflation-rates more bucks, actually. Hmm, could the rental car /fleet sales game be something like that? I wonder. Copying the modern IT Scam game is the best situation to hope for the motor dealers, but somehow they haven't managed to pull that one off. Yet. Probably a matter of pride that they don't, since they never got that sophisticated themselves. Or, it could be that the industry is currently not as tightly controlled as the IT game, too. Far too many players. But I do wonder if that scam was run early in the motor industry's history. And the IT version will fade somewhat if and when 30 or so other players get into the processor manufacturing boiler. I probably won't find out, because reading history of robbery is too damm annoying for me to bother with. And the horses. I'm not old enough to have developed decent ammunition for that on the Dealer front. But all the usual suspects turn up even recenty in the few places horses are still actively traded. But does Fine Cotton or Bold Personality ring a bell? And teeth. And lame bastard horses drugged up to conceal the pain. It's all there. Somewhere. Anyhow, plenty of stuff there to attack. Hell, I've seen people argue in this very NG that the ONLY profit a dealer makes is when he sells the property at some later date. This was accompanied by the rider that the dealer buys into an area that's 'about to' take off, and sells out when the RE value increase. FFS. Well, it's wasn't put exactly like that but damm close:-) It has to be said that Scam discovery is one of my hobbies, and there's plenty to go on with lately - in fact the turds we elect to GovCo are Scamming us daily. Which is possibly as low as it gets - since said turds have the legislative pen and storm troopers poised to protect their Scams. They are waay more dangerous than the average motor dealer, who IMHO are often quite decent folk. Despite the Scams. if they are in fact Scams, of course. I may have been remiss in not defining a Scam from the point of view of this missive. Lets just go to the point that it's not necessarily Fraud - perhaps just one step on from Sharp Business Practice. Thanks for the opportunity to provide some lite entertainment. -- Toby > borrie blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Ahah!! The old produce the evidence call.... Tony you obviously have "absolutely no idea" about the inner workings of a new vehicle dealership. To suggest that a dealer pays 40% less than retail for a vehicle is laughable, it was 8-10% in the 80'-90's can't imagine it being much more in this competitive market. There is no secret squirrel ! sorry to be the one to tell you Tony. borrie blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: >> Ahah!! The old produce the evidence call.... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > laughable, it was 8-10% in the 80'-90's can't imagine it being much more in > this competitive market. Read it again. I didn't 'suggest it'. A dealer - one of some significance in Sydney 'said' it. The numbers were 10,800 odd and 4,500 odd. And that was a bloody long time ago. Now you might suggest times have changed. And by definition that's true. But profit margins shrinking from 60% to 10%? Now that's bullshit. Best to remember that I mentioned that no bastard is told about this - except for that monumental 'slip-up'. Just the once. But that's all it takes, n'est ce pas? Best to remember the IT version of it. Also not public. Both the examples I proffered are absolutes. I have zero reason to bullshit about this stuff. Despite the undisputed fact that I wouldn't piss on a car dealer if the bastard was on fire, that does not alter my independence on the matter in the least. Sorry, that's something you have to accept or reject. Consider though, that I have absolutely nothing to gain in these instances. Nothing at all. Anyhow, you have access to the first - it's on the public record. Well, the second, you'll just have to trust me on that. If you want to believe it, that is;-) > There is no secret squirrel ! sorry to be the one to tell you Tony. Next you'll be trying to tell me the bloody moon isn't in the lake. Bastard. -- Toby > borrie blathered on in Re: Dealer delivery charges - yeuch: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Now you might suggest times have changed. And by definition that's true. > But profit margins shrinking from 60% to 10%? Now that's bullshit. The dealer was pulling your leg Tony, I'm suprised you didn't work that out yourself. > I may have been remiss in not defining a Scam from the point of view of > this missive. > Lets just go to the point that it's not necessarily Fraud - perhaps > just one step on from Sharp Business Practice. > > Thanks for the opportunity to provide some lite entertainment. Thank you Toby, I hope you feel better after getting all that off your chest:-) Funny you should mention different pricing for different customers, the sh.t hits the fan when a customer somehow gets the wrong paperwork, the yelling and screaming from management and the sales office is hysterically funny:-) Daryl > OK, here's a shot or two. And some .blather just for fun. > Please be advised that I don't give a sh.t about whether I'm 'believed' > or not. ~~~~~~~~~~ So why are you posting on usenet at all? Are you posting just to annoy people? Are you a troll? > Neither do I regard absence of evidence as no evidence - or > evidence, for that matter - it's just absence of evidence. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ So you believe in something even if there's an absence of evidence? -- I.guess.you.believe.in.voodoo.too 8< rest of BS snipped >8 >> Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle >> room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. I can't comment on todays prices but back in the 80's when I worked for a dealership the dealer delivery charge was $ 400 and this covered: Transport city to country $120.00 ( 400km) Dewax, cleanup, subaru's had a heavy coat of body wax. Predelivery service, you know - make sure everything did get oil . The act of going out to the RTA registering the vehicle and fitting the plates. Interesting though that the city dealers had the same dealer delivery price yet they didn't have the transport content that we had. It's a sh.t of a game, I was glad to get out of it, the whole motor industry actually. > Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle > room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the warehouse, pick it up myself, unwrap the seats, peel off the > protective paint wrap, etc, etc... (O: ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Why would you care about dealer delivery charges, stamp duty, blah blah blah? The bottomline is the driveaway cost to you as a buyer. If you're not happy, walk away and checkout another dealership. -- Take.it.or.leave.it.what.I.like.to.say >> Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle >> room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > blah? The bottomline is the driveaway cost to you as a buyer. If you're > not happy, walk away and checkout another dealership. That is the ONLY test :) > Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle > room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the warehouse, pick it up myself, unwrap the seats, peel off the > protective paint wrap, etc, etc... (O: Consider: Delivery of the vehicle to the dealer, detailing, pre-delivery and the included free post-delivery servicing, off-loading the trade-in (often cost exceeds salvage price), attending to customers ongoing queries (mechanical and other) as well as the hand-over readiness (attend to rego and the like), and post; possible warranty diagnosis with due attention and the like (sometimes pickup and or delivery or a 'loaner' car is given AND the factory ONLY pays dealer a REDUCED flat-rate price and no profit on parts for warranty work!). To answer your question: I guess it depends on how much the dealer is prepared to discount your fee for him to attend to the abovementioned items without constituting a loss. Additionall, there is: Running a dealership (or any business for that matter). It is not cheap; rent, interest, insurance, wages (not forgetting to add superannuation and payroll tax and the cost of being an unpaid tax collector [PAYE/GST]), lost down-time, un-productivity from the odd bludger, sick leave, holiday pay and workers comp etc), commissions, advertising, building cleaning/maintenance, depreciation on office equip, tools, plant and etc, government charges (including tax local govco "signage" fees, licence fees), incidentals (consumable items, theft/pilfering together with a whole host of 'hidden' costs) AND this is BEFORE the owner/s get/s to make a profit for their own time, return on capital investment and personal health issues. THEN comes tax-time - for the business AND THEN personal income tax. It has to be acknowledged that to deliver a new car to a customer is not just paying someone $15 per hour to run a polishing cloth over a car - and that's it! > Consider: Delivery of the vehicle to the dealer Like Noddy, I'll lay *sizable* odds that is paid for by the manufacturer. If not, it must be one of the very few industries that works like that... > detailing I would ask them not to bother - my Meguiars kit is probably a lot better... But let's accept that one > pre-delivery and the included free post-delivery servicing Manufacturer does the pre-, and for the post- they shouldn't be boasting that it's FREE, should they? > off-loading the trade-in No trade-in makes *zero* difference. And have you checked redbook private-versus-trade-in figures? Sheesh - they've already got that margin well-covered. > attending to customers ongoing queries (mechanical and other) Huh? That is largely up to the service department and the effectiveness of the sale process, and they'll lose business rapidly by being bad at it, or tight with their time. I'll happily go to my local mechanic, and or happily tell all my friends how bad the service is (loudly on groups like this) if that's their attitude. > as well as the hand-over readiness (attend to rego and the like) Accepted, although again this aint' rocket science and I'd be happy to do it myself.. > and post; ? > possible warranty diagnosis with due attention and the like This is a separate issue and depends on the warranty terms (and the quality or otherwise of the vehicle). > (sometimes pickup and or delivery or a 'loaner' car is given AND the factory ONLY pays > dealer a REDUCED flat-rate price and no profit on parts for warranty work!). Ditto, see below. > Additionall, there is: Running a dealership (or any business for that > matter). It is not cheap; rent, interest, insurance, wages (not [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > just paying someone $15 per hour to run a polishing cloth over a car - > and that's it! Woah! You seem to be of the impression that the prices posted by manufacturer's are *wholesale* prices, in other words the dealer has to use the delivery fee to run their dealership...? Give me a break. I'm sure they *are* using those fees to help run their dealerships, but don't you think they buy the cars for just a teensy bit less than the manufacturer advertises them on telly? (O: If these costs are NOT "delivery" fees - and you're essentially saying that the majority of them are NOT - then I don't think they should be called that. If they are claiming it is to cover delivery-related expenses, why don't they break them down? - I'll then let them know exactly what I don't want done... And that is why I asked the question, to get a feel for what is normal and what the actual costs might be, and how much is in fact just money- grabbing. You don't work for a dealer, do you, Veritas? >> Consider: Delivery of the vehicle to the dealer > Like Noddy, I'll lay *sizable* odds that is paid for by the > manufacturer. If not, it must be one of the very few industries that > works like that... Last I looked - the dealer bought the vehicle "ex factory" - unless recently changed. >> detailing > I would ask them not to bother - my Meguiars kit is probably a lot > better... But let's accept that one Have you seen the crappy job that the factory does? >> pre-delivery and the included free post-delivery servicing > Manufacturer does the pre-, and for the post- they shouldn't be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > private-versus-trade-in figures? Sheesh - they've already got that > margin well-covered. It makes ALL the difference - customers get offended if they get offered the price the "crap-car" dealers pay the new-car dealers for the sh.t-heaps so they *have* to inflate the trade in price. >> attending to customers ongoing queries (mechanical and other) > Huh? That is largely up to the service department and the > effectiveness of the sale process, and they'll lose business rapidly > by being bad at it, or tight with their time. I'll happily go to my > local mechanic, and or happily tell all my friends how bad the service > is (loudly on groups like this) if that's their attitude. It is still part of the overall expenses picture. >> as well as the hand-over readiness (attend to rego and the like) > Accepted, although again this aint' rocket science and I'd be happy to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > This is a separate issue and depends on the warranty terms (and the > quality or otherwise of the vehicle). It is still part of the overall picture - people have to be paid for performing non-revenue tasks created by obligations fron the initial sale. >> (sometimes pickup and or delivery or a 'loaner' car is given AND the factory ONLY pays >> dealer a REDUCED flat-rate price and no profit on parts for warranty work!). [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > manufacturer's are *wholesale* prices, in other words the dealer has > to use the delivery fee to run their dealership...? Get a grip on yer-self - oh, maybe you have! :) No, I said a lot of things and I thought I made it clear that the issue had to viewed as a whole. > Give me a break. > I'm sure they *are* using those fees to help run their dealerships, > but don't you think they buy the cars for just a teensy bit less than > the manufacturer advertises them on telly? (O: What I am saying is what the fact of the matter, in relationship to the BIG picture. I have no control (nor was it my intention to have control) over what the manner of usage one might apply to any particular detail thereof. What I *have* indeed specifically intimated is: CONSIDER the facts that I have pointed out in the overall scheme of things - especially in relationship to 'giving' away of margins. No matter how you conclude the minimum profit margin to survive - it is a real figure calculated together with any other profit margins. I don't believe in 'tacking on' fees for this, and fees for that - I would much rather quote an RRP that is calculated upon the cost of the vehicle plus cost of selling the vehicle - less the trade in and leave it at that - but that, as clearly illustrated here, doesn't happen to be the case! > If these costs are NOT "delivery" fees - and you're essentially saying > that the majority of them are NOT - then I don't think they should be > called that. If they are claiming it is to cover delivery-related > expenses, why don't they break them down? - I'll then let them know > exactly what I don't want done... Agreed - the only variable is the delivery (distance to a dealer) costs and that would be better if it were to be the ONLY surcharge listed. > And that is why I asked the question, to get a feel for what is normal > and what the actual costs might be, and how much is in fact just money- > grabbing. By money-grabbing, you mean a profit, don't you? The industry is too competitive to get away with profiteering! > You don't work for a dealer, do you, Veritas? NO - I DON'T. DO YOU? BUT I *have^ been a Datsun/Nissan dealer AND know a little more about the industry than you likely do! I have made my comments based on *experience* and not some popular notion of what one thinks to be fact or how certain deals are worded.... I rely on what I have said - many people seem to think that (all) business' run themselves AND that the capitalist bastards that run it are not entitled to a profit from their labour, investment and risk while they, themselves, cry foul when they have to place their goods (labour and performance) out onto the open market environment! Capitalism or communism - one or the other? COMPETITION is the leveler - no matter how you word it OR do the math! > Consider: Delivery of the vehicle to the dealer, detailing, pre-delivery > and the included free post-delivery servicing, off-loading the trade-in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > AND the factory ONLY pays dealer a REDUCED flat-rate price and no profit > on parts for warranty work!). Ahem :) It's a good thing you work in the finance & insurance section, as if they ever sh.t you to being the new car sales manager the dealership will go broke in a week :) Some points of your comments above here that need addressing: Firstly, trade ins are potentially the biggest profit margin of *any* new car sale, which is why the very first thing any car salesman worth his salt asks is if you have one. It's the only area of the sale where they stand to make any real money, and they'll seldom, if ever, pay anything close to what they'll get for it on their used lot. 99* times out of 100 if there's no money in the trade in they'll tell you they're not interested in it. Secondly, loaner cars, or "demos" as they're more commonly known, are a popular tax break for dealers which is precisely why almost everyone of them has at least one. They pay for themselves. Thirdly, warranty work is paid for by the manufacturer, not the dealer, at a pre set rate that is less than the normal workshop retail rate, but enough to be profitable just the same. There is no dealer anywhere in the country that has to do warranty repairs where the cost comes out of their own pocket. Lastly, and probably most importantly, all the other crap associated with making a sale, such as dealing with customer enquiries and attending to the registration duties are actually part of the business of selling cars, and that's what they get *paid* to do when they sell one. Just how well depends on how successful the customer is in negotiating a deal, or how hungry the dealer is in closing one. > To answer your question: I guess it depends on how much the dealer is > prepared to discount your fee for him to attend to the abovementioned [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > capital investment and personal health issues. THEN comes tax-time - for > the business AND THEN personal income tax. Costs that are associated with every business in the counrty, yet unlike dealerships every business in the country doesn't get an automatic 1700 buck whack on top of every sale they make, or have a service department that is little more than a licence to print money :) > It has to be acknowledged that to deliver a new car to a customer is not > just paying someone $15 per hour to run a polishing cloth over a car - and > that's it! In actual fact it's often very little more than that, unless the vehicle is having an air conditioner fitted at the dealership :) The problem with the dealer delivery fee is that there's no economy of scale. For example, you can walk into a Holden dealership 100 meters from the local distribution yard and buy a new Dunny, and you'll pay the full 1700 buck (or whatever it is) delivery fee. On the other hand, walk into a dealership in sh.tter's Ditch that's 4000km's from the nearest distribution yard and you'll pay the *same* 1700 buck delivery fee. As John H pointed out, the cost of getting the car to the dealer has to be shouldered by someone, and the costs obviously vary depending on where the dealership is in relation to the assembly plant, yet the punter pays the same regardless of where he buys from. Someone is obviously losing money here, and you can bet your left nut it *ain't* the dealerships. >> Consider: Delivery of the vehicle to the dealer, detailing, pre-delivery >> and the included free post-delivery servicing, off-loading the trade-in [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > country that has to do warranty repairs where the cost comes out of their > own pocket. Very broad statement noddy, warranty work is " often" unprofitable with times set by factory mechanics that are geared and familiar with the job. In reality those times can be difficult to meet and warranty only pays the set times and of coarse doesnt pay for the time that is consumed finding that rattle and diagnosing the problem. > Very broad statement noddy, warranty work is " often" unprofitable with > times set by factory mechanics that are geared and familiar with the job. > In reality those times can be difficult to meet and warranty only pays > the set times and of coarse doesnt pay for the time that is consumed > finding that rattle and diagnosing the problem. No, it doesn't, but then again the majority of warranty work is pretty obvious stuff, and those dealerships who employ staff who have problems with diagnosis should perhaps consider employing people who don't. An important point worth bearing in mind here is that not every function of business is profitable, and you have to suck up *some* costs at times. -- Regards, Noddy. >> Very broad statement noddy, warranty work is " often" unprofitable with >> times set by factory mechanics that are geared and familiar with the job. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, it doesn't, but then again the majority of warranty work is pretty > obvious stuff, Actually I found quite the opposite, with the exception of the odd recall work. and those dealerships who employ staff who have problems with > diagnosis should perhaps consider employing people who don't. I have never known dealerships to retain good mechanics for long, especially here in the west now that everyone has left to become mine fitters for triple the money > An important point worth bearing in mind here is that not every function > of business is profitable, and you have to suck up *some* costs at times. And obviously business looks very closely at unprofitable functions > -- > Regards, > Noddy. >> Very broad statement noddy, warranty work is " often" unprofitable with >> times set by factory mechanics that are geared and familiar with the job. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > An important point worth bearing in mind here is that not every function of > business is profitable, and you have to suck up *some* costs at times. AHA! That was my (albeit long winded) point. The OVERALL picture.... > -- > Regards, > Noddy. > AHA! That was my (albeit long winded) point. The OVERALL picture.... Was it? I'm sorry, but I thought you were trying to *justify* the dealer delivery fee, which is a total rort :) -- Regards, Noddy. > I'm sorry, but I thought you were trying to *justify* the dealer delivery > fee, which is a total rort :) ~~~~~~~~~~~ What have you got against the dealer delivery charge or any other profit-making efforts? -- Are.you.a.socialist? > What have you got against the dealer delivery charge or any other > profit-making efforts? I don't have anything against it. I just think it's a con, and Veritas' attempts to justify it were the funniest read I've had in ages :) -- Regards, Noddy. >> What have you got against the dealer delivery charge or any other >> profit-making efforts? > > I don't have anything against it. I just think it's a con, and Veritas' > attempts to justify it were the funniest read I've had in ages :) ~~~~~~~~~~~ Why is the DDC a con? It's listed in black and white and most dealers charge the same price. What else is there? -- Dealers.are.not.transparent.enough.to.you? > Why is the DDC a con? It's listed in black and white and most dealers > charge the same price. What else is there? Give up. You're too thick to understand. -- Regards, Noddy. >> Why is the DDC a con? It's listed in black and white and most dealers >> charge the same price. What else is there? > > Give up. > > You're too thick to understand. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well it is you who is giving up on your assertion that "the dealer delivery charge is a con." It looks like you have nothing to back it up. -- I.never.give.up.in.the.pursuit.of.the.truth.justice.and.the.Aussie.way > Well it is you who is giving up on your assertion that "the dealer > delivery charge is a con." It looks like you have nothing to back it up. Let me try to put it to you another, more simpler way. Buying a new car is no different to buying any other retail product. There is *some* degree of preparation involved in handing that product over to you, sure, but that's part of the business. Just like it is in a lot of other businesses where the product needs to be prepared in some way before it's handed over to the buyer. They allow for it as part of the normal retail process, and it's factored into the price. The difference is that only car dealers charge a fee for this "preparation", on top of whatever profit they make on the sale (and believe me they *all* make a profit on sales). It's like going into your favorite department store and buying a new television, and having the guy charge you 500 bucks to go out the back and take one out of the carton for you. -- Regards, Noddy. >> Well it is you who is giving up on your assertion that "the dealer >> delivery charge is a con." It looks like you have nothing to back it up. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. Actually, I recently bought a bike, tv cabinet, and computer table, all displayed fully assembled, when purchased all were unassembled in a box, I had the choice though to pay extra for assembly and delivery. I am not saying the current dealer delivery price is justified but certainly some price is justified. >> What have you got against the dealer delivery charge or any other >> profit-making efforts? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. I'm pleased about that - I'm laughing too :) > I'm pleased about that - I'm laughing too :) I'm sure you are. -- Regards, Noddy. >> I'm sorry, but I thought you were trying to *justify* the dealer >> delivery fee, which is a total rort :) >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > What have you got against the dealer delivery charge or any other > profit-making efforts? Company stoodge. SignatureDon't try to reply to my email addy: I'm borrowing that of the latest scammer/spammer >>> I'm sorry, but I thought you were trying to *justify* the dealer >>> delivery fee, which is a total rort :) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Company stoodge. ~~~~~~~~~~~ Correction: I'm a FREE-ENTERPRISE "stooge." -- Death.to.socialism >>> Consider: Delivery of the vehicle to the dealer, detailing, pre-delivery >>> and the included free post-delivery servicing, off-loading the trade-in [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > times and of coarse doesnt pay for the time that is consumed finding that > rattle and diagnosing the problem. Very often its the other way round, a good mechanic can often find quicker ways to do things. I remember back in the XC Falcon days noisy heater fans where not uncommon, the standard time to R&R one was about 2.5 hrs but a mechanic at a Melb dealer figured out a way of doing it in about 10mins but they still claimed the 2.5hrs on their warranty claim form. They lose on some and gain on others. Daryl >> Consider: Delivery of the vehicle to the dealer, detailing, pre-delivery >> and the included free post-delivery servicing, off-loading the trade-in [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > same regardless of where he buys from. Someone is obviously losing money > here, and you can bet your left nut it *ain't* the dealerships. No matter how you look at it, apply the variable, pick at issues or do the math - the result is based (one way or another) on the very same points that I initially raised. And the resultant point was: It cost large bikkies to get a car from the factory and into the customer's possession - and I brought the *overall* cost picture to the attention of the particular poster that I replied to (who had issue with a *particular* charge being made). > And the resultant point was: It cost large bikkies to get a car from the > factory and into the customer's possession - What kind of "large bikkies" are you talking about? 50 bucks, a couple hundred? I dunno what dealership you're talking about, but the one I worked for it was sh.t simple. The car was ordered and it came delivered from Prix Car. The stock controller organised the rego while it went into the workshop for a 15 minute pre delivery, and then got passed over to the detailer for a clean & polish and have the number plates fitted. Car arrived at the dealership at 9am, and was ready for the customer by lunchtime *sh.t* easy. Back in the days I worked for this particular dealership the dealer delivery fee was a grand (990 bucks to be precise), and it was the easiest money they made. > and I brought the *overall* cost picture to the attention of the > particular poster that I replied to (who had issue with a *particular* > charge being made). You bought the overall costs of running a business in general to the original poster. All of which had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the dealer delivery fee. -- Regards, Noddy. >> And the resultant point was: It cost large bikkies to get a car from the >> factory and into the customer's possession - > > What kind of "large bikkies" are you talking about? 50 bucks, a couple > hundred? Reread my comments - in toto! It'll come to you eventually. > I dunno what dealership you're talking about, but the one I worked for it > was sh.t simple. The car was ordered and it came delivered from Prix Car. > The stock controller organised the rego while it went into the workshop for > a 15 minute pre delivery, and then got passed over to the detailer for a > clean & polish and have the number plates fitted. Well - obviously a shonky dealer then? > Car arrived at the dealership at 9am, and was ready for the customer by > lunchtime *sh.t* easy. That must have been one of those cars that OP frequently complain about being delivered in shithouse condition - it stands to reason that the following may not have been done: Check for paint and body damage, detail (interior and exterior) + polish, wheel alignment check, tyre pressures check, morning coffee break (15 minutes?), engine tune check, valves and sundry adjusted, fluid levels (including petrol) checked, doors and strikers adjusted, plates and rego sticker fitted, lights-bulbs-signals-warning and safety devices checked, vital items such as suspension and steering checked for component security and locking devices (split pins and etc) properly fitted, checked for oil leaks, road tested - all 'professionally' attended to in less than three man-hours - really! I would have thought, that besides less than three hours of labour, it would be quite an effort to do all of that with the car parked on the roadside. You obviously choose to ignore the fact that it *costs* more that a few bucks worth of labour to "deliver a car" to a customer. If you choose not the see the reality of what I have already said - there is little point debating it - even if it is just for the jollies :) > Back in the days I worked for this particular dealership the dealer delivery > fee was a grand (990 bucks to be precise), and it was the easiest money they > made. Maybe you did. Re-read *all* of my comments. I am saying (AGAIN!) that it is the "whole picture" (how many time does it need to be reiterated?) that has not been looked at by the detractors (and apparently yourself). I am not a supporter of "add-on" costs that are there so that the vehicle can be advertised at a price lower than its real price. The add-on issue is nothing more than bullshit - HOWEVER, for the dealer, it is calculated into the *OVERALL* pricing strategy and in NOT necessarily a rip-off, as such. Competition is the leveler here - and don't try to have us all believe that the dealers are NOT out there competing for our business. >> and I brought the *overall* cost picture to the attention of the >> particular poster that I replied to (who had issue with a *particular* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > original poster. All of which had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with > the dealer delivery fee. :) If the infrastructure to 'deliver' a car didn't get there by an act of god - or the money it costs to run it.... how does get there? Once a customer walks into a showroom OR a vehicle is driven into a showroom OR a workshop - the entire overhead of the organisation (that you choose to ignore) has to be applied. If you don't get it by now - go talk to your accountant - because I am obviously wasting my time Cheers...... > Well - obviously a shonky dealer then? What one isn't? They all operate on the principal of rip as much money out of the buyer as is humanly possible, regardless of the marque in question. > That must have been one of those cars that OP frequently complain about > being delivered in shithouse condition - it stands to reason that the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > leaks, road tested - all 'professionally' attended to in less than three > man-hours - really! You do realize, of course, that most of that stuff (if not all) gets done on a minor service which takes under an hour? > I would have thought, that besides less than three hours of labour, it > would be quite an effort to do all of that with the car parked on the > roadside. Who said anything about cars being parked on the side of a road? The dealership I worked for had a 12 car service bay, and all the pre deliveries went in their for their inspections. Once done it was whipped in next door to the detailer's shop for them to do their work and it was done. 3 hours easy, 2 hours if you were pushed for time and our top of the line car was 205 grand. > You obviously choose to ignore the fact that it *costs* more that a few > bucks worth of labour to "deliver a car" to a customer. If you choose not > the see the reality of what I have already said - there is little point > debating it - even if it is just for the jollies :) You're missing the point in that the costs of readying the car for the customer are part of the sale process, and factored into the selling price. That's what the profit margin is all about. The dealer delivery fee is nothing other than a nifty little extra earner that sounds all nice & spiffy, but it's just cream om top of what they already make in doing the deal. > Maybe you did. Re-read *all* of my comments. I am saying (AGAIN!) that > it is the "whole picture" (how many time does it need to be reiterated?) > that has not been looked at by the detractors (and apparently yourself). As I said earlier, all of the costs you mentioned are associated with running a business. *Any* business, not just a car showroom. As I also said, not every single aspect of business is profitable, and costs sucked up in some areas are made up for in others. Car dealerships are a perfect example of this priciple. Most dealerships exist not to sell cars, but to get cars into the service department where the *real* money is at. Selling of the cars is a means to that end. Not an uber profitable one, but it pays it's own way nonetheless. > I am not a supporter of "add-on" costs that are there so that the vehicle > can be advertised at a price lower than its real price. The add-on issue > is nothing more than bullshit - HOWEVER, for the dealer, it is calculated > into the *OVERALL* pricing strategy and in NOT necessarily a rip-off, as > such. Competition is the leveler here - and don't try to have us all > believe that the dealers are NOT out there competing for our business. Of course they are. Just like any other retail business. Who said they weren't? > If the infrastructure to 'deliver' a car didn't get there by an act of > god - or the money it costs to run it.... how does get there? It got there the same way any other necessary part of business does. There's no magical trick or illusion about it all. Preparing cars for sale is part of the normal sale process. It has been for 100 years. > Once a customer walks into a showroom OR a vehicle is driven into a > showroom OR a workshop - the entire overhead of the organisation (that you > choose to ignore) has to be applied. Whoops :) Sorry, but I'm not ignoring anything. An important part of this equation you seem to be missing is that the various operations of every business are not equally profitable, and indeed some operations barely break even. However, in the grand scheme the less profitable operations are usually a necessary tool that is required to keep the profitable operations well and truly fed. Take new car sales for example. Most dealerships make f.ck all on car sales even in boom times, but making money on selling cars is *not* their business. Their business is *servicing* cars at 80 bucks an hour (or whatever they charge these days), and thanks largely to the ignorance of the car buying public who think they *must* have their car maintained by the dealer if they are to retain their warranty, the sale of the car is the first step the dealer needs to achieve in order to get it into the service department and start milking the customer dry on a regular basis. What they make on the sale of the car in the first place is purely a bonus. > If you don't get it by now - go talk to your accountant - because I am > obviously wasting my time You would be if you ever applied for a franchise licence, that's for sure. -- Regards, Noddy. >> Well - obviously a shonky dealer then? > > What one isn't? MOST are not! How can someone rip another off in a competitive market place unless it is by deception (which is illegal) OR the buyer is stupid! Obviously you go to the nearest dealer and accept the first quote which is a (trade-in taken into account) single price - on the road? Noooo, you go to (at least) three dealers and get quotes using the same criteria - then do the rounds again (maybe more than once) to play one quote against the other. You don't give a rats-arse HOW the quote was determined - JUST THE FINAL AMOUNT! Should you accept a quote that has been competitively given, it will have been made by the dealer based on his *OVERALL* cost plus a *PROFIT* and you will have judged you acceptance on the basis of his *TOTAL* amount (bottom line) of the quote. > What one isn't? But if you mean - what dealer is intending to maximise his profit - then the answer is ALL of them! Of course, unless Australia is a communist state? You see noddy - here, we invest our capital (that is called capitalism), our effort and expertise to earn an income by competing with other 'like' enterprises, thus engaging in fair competition. This usually works quite well. Last I heard it was perfectly legal unless price fixing is involved - but the subject was "ripping-off" was it not?. How can you seriously feed this group with a 'ripoff' theory when it is, in fact, nothing more than 'semantics'! > They all operate on the principal of rip as much money out of the buyer as > is humanly possible, regardless of the marque in question. Get over it noddy! I think it could be called "FREE ENTERPRISE". If the dealer attempts a "ripoff" the next dealer will certainly take advantage of such stupidity and rip the sale from under him. If the buyer doesn't 'shop-around' than he deserves the end-price that he gets. Is that a 'ripoff'! I think not. Really quite simple logic - all one has to do is to actually think about it for a moment or two. >> That must have been one of those cars that OP frequently complain about >> being delivered in shithouse condition - it stands to reason that the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You do realize, of course, that most of that stuff (if not all) gets done on > a minor service which takes under an hour? One hour , HUH? nice try! Pull the middle one - it squirts. >> I would have thought, that besides less than three hours of labour, it >> would be quite an effort to do all of that with the car parked on the >> roadside. > > Who said anything about cars being parked on the side of a road? Whoosh - you missed that one, eh? > The dealership I worked for had a 12 car service bay, and all the pre > deliveries went in their for their inspections. Once done it was whipped in > next door to the detailer's shop for them to do their work and it was done. > 3 hours easy, 2 hours if you were pushed for time and our top of the line > car was 205 grand. Yeah - yeah! What happened to the 'detailing' being included if the time-frame that you first quoted? Spin? >> You obviously choose to ignore the fact that it *costs* more that a few >> bucks worth of labour to "deliver a car" to a customer. If you choose not [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that sounds all nice & spiffy, but it's just cream om top of what they > already make in doing the deal. T'aint - so there Mr Smarty-pants >> Maybe you did. Re-read *all* of my comments. I am saying (AGAIN!) that >> it is the "whole picture" (how many time does it need to be reiterated?) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not every single aspect of business is profitable, and costs sucked up in > some areas are made up for in others. EXACTLY! - why do you continue bull-sh.tting then? I say AGAIN, AGAIN and AGAIN, it is the *whole* financial picture that is really the only issue. I can't understand you noddy - you spin your story from for, to against, as it suits you. I have difficulty in determining just what your argument really is. > Car dealerships are a perfect example of this priciple. Most dealerships > exist not to sell cars, but to get cars into the service department where > the *real* money is at. Selling of the cars is a means to that end. Not an > uber profitable one, but it pays it's own way nonetheless. UTTER CRAPP! >> I am not a supporter of "add-on" costs that are there so that the vehicle >> can be advertised at a price lower than its real price. The add-on issue [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Of course they are. Just like any other retail business. Well - where is the ripoff then? > Who said they weren't? Spin, noddy, spin - getting dizzy yet? >> If the infrastructure to 'deliver' a car didn't get there by an act of >> god - or the money it costs to run it.... how does get there? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > It has been for 100 years. Wow! - that's a relief. I though for a moment that you were still ignoring that small point. >> Once a customer walks into a showroom OR a vehicle is driven into a >> showroom OR a workshop - the entire overhead of the organisation (that you >> choose to ignore) has to be applied. > > Whoops :) Sorry, but I'm not ignoring anything. Really! > An important part of this equation you seem to be missing is that the > various operations of every business are not equally profitable, and indeed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > even in boom times, but making money on selling cars is *not* their > business. Oh, so now you're saying that, in that case, the delivery fee might actually be *partly* justified - and not a ripoff then? Pick what point you choose to debate - the profit is from delivery charges, profit margin or both? I think you may be agreeing with the latter (as do I) when the *whole* equation is ultimately resolved? > Their business is *servicing* cars at 80 bucks an hour (or > whatever they charge these days), I don't know either - but, i do know that the dealer might get to keep less than $20 of it. Dealerships are expensive - no doubt about that. One doesn't have to attend. Plenty of 'opposition' TV advertising there to inform *everyone* of the fact. > and thanks largely to the ignorance of the > car buying public who think they *must* have their car maintained by the > dealer if they are to retain their warranty, the sale of the car is the > first step the dealer needs to achieve in order to get it into the service > department and start milking the customer dry on a regular basis. That yarn would be almost believable - *IF* the owner was ever *forced* to take his car back for revenue servicing! > What they make on the sale of the car in the first place is purely a bonus. CRAPP! The workshop raises internal invoices to sales for the PD and subsequent 'free' service/s based on their costs. The transport costs, sales and all of the average overheads that I previously mentioned are calculated - added to the factory price of the car - THEN a minimum margin is applied which results in what price the salesman is allowed to get a sale. How long a particular car has been in the showroom is also a factor into the bottom-line as finance rates for keeping it there increase. Have you any idea what it costs to open a dealership's door every morning? Even before any business is done. The amount is mind boggling. >> If you don't get it by now - go talk to your accountant - because I am >> obviously wasting my time > > You would be if you ever applied for a franchise licence, that's for sure. Well, *I* have been there and done that - Datsun and Honda. What new car dealerships have you ever owned - or for that matter managed? I say this kindly; debate the subjects that you know something about - perhaps engineering? I genuinely find your comments both knowledgeable, helpful and entertaining. > -- > Regards, > Noddy. Either you're, err, too thick to get it - or you're just being a smart-arse going for run in the park. I have always been (reasonably) respectful to your posts, while not necessarily agreeing with you, and I have never taken you for being an idiot - but this series? I have to ask - Tell me noddy, which is it? :) Oh BTW, I am not engaged in the finance or insurance business. I have since retired from (for some time now) the auto AND aviation industries, which I was engaged in simultaneously. However, have you any idea what it actually costs to have a car (new or used) sit in the showroom after bailment stops? It is that cost that MUST (one way or another) also be included into the entire cost of retailing a car just as income from profit, delivery fees and kickbacks from finance companies and insurance sales. It ain't just the cost of flour, yeast and labour to produce/sell a loaf of bread - the cost of running the factory/retail has to be recouped also. Profit = (equals) fixed costs + stock costs + (plus) (average) variable costs - (minus) income, (all from whatever sources) Here we go again *OVERALL* amount!. It is a breeze to calculate using a spreadsheet - any Yr.12.er could do it once the income and fixed, stock and variable amounts were identified and priced (by way of internal invoices, determined, and made up and from the parts, sales and service departments' own balance sheets). Hope this helps :) Cheers, > MOST are not! Bwahahahahaha :) Now I really *have* heard f.cking everything :) > But if you mean - what dealer is intending to maximise his profit - then > the answer is ALL of them! Of course, unless Australia is a communist [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > works quite well. Last I heard it was perfectly legal unless price fixing > is involved - but the subject was "ripping-off" was it not?. Ripping off, over charging, stiffing the client for all you can, or making a profit. Call it whatever you want. They *all* do it. > How can you seriously feed this group with a 'ripoff' theory when it is, > in fact, nothing more than 'semantics'! To you, but you obviously have a vested interest. You're trying your hardest to justify the normal practices of a section of the car industry that has a reputation three feet lower than crocodile piss, and deservedly so. > Get over it noddy! I think it could be called "FREE ENTERPRISE". If the > dealer attempts a "ripoff" the next dealer will certainly take advantage > of such stupidity and rip the sale from under him. If the buyer doesn't > 'shop-around' than he deserves the end-price that he gets. Is that a > 'ripoff'! I think not. For a "rip off" to take place, two things are generally required: A gullible buyer with money to burn, and a moral vacuum with something to sell. Both components are necessary for the event to take place, but it's usually only the buyer who has no clue that it's happening. > Really quite simple logic - all one has to do is to actually think about > it for a moment or two. Sure :) > One hour , HUH? nice try! Pull the middle one - it squirts. Clearly you are totally unfamilar with the goings on of the average service department :) > Whoosh - you missed that one, eh? Obviously. Perhaps coming up with something remotely relevant might make things a little easier. > Yeah - yeah! What happened to the 'detailing' being included if the > time-frame that you first quoted? Spin? Just out of curiosity, what do you think takes place when a detailer gets his hands on a pre delivery? I can tell you precisely what was done in our place. The car got a quick steam clean, a shammy, a coat of "el cheapo" wax, a vacuum and dust on the inside and the number plates & rego label were fitted. That's it in a nutshell, and it took two detailers all of an hour to do. > T'aint - so there Mr Smarty-pants Um, yeah, okay :) > EXACTLY! - why do you continue bull-sh.tting then? I say AGAIN, AGAIN and > AGAIN, it is the *whole* financial picture that is really the only issue. > I can't understand you noddy - you spin your story from for, to against, > as it suits you. I have difficulty in determining just what your argument > really is. Just in case you're not clear and are having trouble with the concept, the dealer delivery fee does *not* cover a cost that the dealer incurs in handing over the car, as that is already factored into the *retail* price. The dealer delivery fee is a bonus that gives them some extra wiggle space and *still* lets them earn some money on the deal. > UTTER CRAPP! Oh, really? :) Perhaps you can tell us then why it is that every car dealership in the country has a service department, and why that service department will *easily* be the most profitable department of the whole busniess? Or, better yet, give us an idea of how long you think the average car dealership would stay in business *just* by selling new cars? > Well - where is the ripoff then? The "rip off" is that most other retail outlets don't charge you a "hand over" fee. > Wow! - that's a relief. I though for a moment that you were still > ignoring that small point. The *point* is that car dealers sold cars *long* before there was such a thing as a dealer delivery fee, and it never bothered them. It was only after a group of dealers came up with the idea of inventing a new way to stiff some extra out of the punter than the thing ever got off the ground. > Oh, so now you're saying that, in that case, the delivery fee might > actually be *partly* justified - and not a ripoff then? Nope. I'm saying that there has never been big money in selling everyday garden variety cars from a dealer's point of view. The big money is in service & parts as far as they're concerned. > Pick what point you choose to debate - the profit is from delivery > charges, profit margin or both? My point has remained the same the whole time. If you took a bex and had a lie down for a while, and left your red dealer's sport's coat on the hanger for a minute you *just* might undertand what I'm saying. > I think you may be agreeing with the latter (as do I) when the *whole* > equation is ultimately resolved? If you go back and read a bit you're likely to find that I never said it wasn't. The fact that I mentioned that the various operations of a business (or dealership in this case) are not equally profitable should have been a clue. My argument here is in refute of your claims that the dealer delivery fee is a justifiable part of the sale process, irrespective of what the rest of the business is doing as it clearly isn't. A dealer will sell you a car and waive the DDF and *still* make money on the deal at the retail price. The DDF exists purely to top that "make" up to what the dealers consider a respectable level. > I don't know either - but, i do know that the dealer might get to keep > less than $20 of it. That's *just* the labour charge. By the time you factor in the mark up on parts & consumables you can pretty much gaurantee that the average hourly profit would be hefty sum, multiplied by the number of cars serviced per technician per day. Just to give you a rough idea of the kind of money involved the dealership I worked for serviced an average of 40 cars per day at the then going rate of 55 bucks per hour. Your average minor service ran around 300 bucks, while the average major was close to 700, and that didn't include things like brake pads or other non regular service items. Every car got 5 litres of oil that we would buy in bulk for $1.25 per litre and retail to the customer for 12 bucks a litre. You can do the math if you like, but if you don't wish to that equated to an average monthly *profit* on oil sales alone of over 40 thousand bucks. > Dealerships are expensive - no doubt about that. One doesn't have to > attend. Plenty of 'opposition' TV advertising there to inform *everyone* > of the fact. Yep, they are expensive. However, they also are a licence to print money. > That yarn would be almost believable - *IF* the owner was ever *forced* to > take his car back for revenue servicing! The sad part about that is that most new car buyers think they are. The number of people who are under the impression that their new car warranty will be rendered null & void if they have the car serviced by anyone other than an authorised dealer is *staggering*, and neither the car manufacturers or the dealers themselves go out of their way to make people aware that that's *not* the case. I'd go so far as to say that 99 buyers out of 100 believe that they are committed to dealership servicing for the life of the warranty at least, and I *certainly* know it was common practice to instill that message into the minds of clients who enquired about the possibility of alternatives in the interests of keeping them coming back to have their wallets lightened. A blatant & illegal practice, sure, and one of the reasons why I got out of that particular part of the industry, but it went on all the time. > The workshop raises internal invoices to sales for the PD and subsequent > 'free' service/s based on their costs. Bzzzt. "Free services" are paid for by the manufacturer (namely the labour). Consuables for that free service are paid for by the owner. > The transport costs, sales and all of the average overheads that I > previously mentioned are calculated - added to the factory price of the > car - THEN a minimum margin is applied which results in what price the > salesman is allowed to get a sale. How long a particular car has been in > the showroom is also a factor into the bottom-line as finance rates for > keeping it there increase. Yep, standard pracitce. What the dealer delivery fee has to do with any of that is a mystery though :) > Have you any idea what it costs to open a dealership's door every morning? > Even before any business is done. The amount is mind boggling. Um, mind boggling would be what it costs to run BHP. Your average dealership is a little less expensive. > Well, *I* have been there and done that - Datsun and Honda. What new car > dealerships have you ever owned - or for that matter managed? I managed the parts (initially) and later service & parts departments of one of Melbourne's leading Honda dealers. In that capacity I bacame pretty intimate with the average goings on of the dealership "experience" as well as the peculiarities of Honda in particular. From what I could gather from the meetings I would attend with other dealership representitives, the practices I expereinced at my dealership were across the board, and not limited to Honda either. The dealership I worked for was a single franchise operation at the time (but I believe it now has a couple of different marques under it's belt), but many of the managers I'd meet occasionally on our get togethers came from multi-franchise operations that included marques like BMW, Mercedes Benz and other "notables". Some of the stories they could tell you about the way things went on in their dealerships would make the hair on the back of your nexk stand up :) > I say this kindly; debate the subjects that you know something about - > perhaps engineering? I genuinely find your comments both knowledgeable, > helpful and entertaining. Arse kissing won't help you. I still think you're not getting it :) > Either you're, err, too thick to get it - or you're just being a > smart-arse going for run in the park. I have always been (reasonably) > respectful to your posts, while not necessarily agreeing with you, and I > have never taken you for being an idiot - but this series? I have to > ask - Tell me noddy, which is it? :) The be honest I'm being as serious as I can be, and simply relating my own experiences in the dealership world. I can tell you quite categorically that the company accountant herself referred to the dealer delivery fee as a "rort", and that it had no impact on the selling price of a new car whatsoever. In fact, the standard practice of the sales staff was to use the fee as a bargaining tool by dropping it from the sale price if the customer haggled (you'd be surprised at the number who don't) in an effort to give the potential buyer the impression that they were "getting a bargain". In reality they were paying full retail price for the car minus the 990 buck DDF (at the time), and the dealer principal was *more* than happy to cut a deal like that on even his cheapest heap of sh.t as it gave him a fair enough markup to make the venture worthwhile. > Oh BTW, I am not engaged in the finance or insurance business. I have > since retired from (for some time now) the auto AND aviation industries, > which I was engaged in simultaneously. Nice. I hope you're having as much fun in retirement as I am :) > However, have you any idea what it actually costs to have a car (new or > used) sit in the showroom after bailment stops? It is that cost that MUST > (one way or another) also be included into the entire cost of retailing a > car just as income from profit, delivery fees and kickbacks from finance > companies and insurance sales. Of course. I can't comment on dealerships today as it's been over ten years since I last bought a new car, and somewhat more than that since I worked in one, but the *smart* dealer kept very few cars on the floor, and those that he did were ones that he knew would turn over frequently. > It ain't just the cost of flour, yeast and labour to produce/sell a loaf > of bread - the cost of running the factory/retail has to be recouped also. Indeed. > Profit = (equals) fixed costs + stock costs + (plus) (average) variable > costs - (minus) income, (all from whatever sources) Here we go again > *OVERALL* amount!. Just for the record I never said that this *wasn't* the case :) > It is a breeze to calculate using a spreadsheet - any Yr.12.er could do it > once the income and fixed, stock and variable amounts were identified and > priced (by way of internal invoices, determined, and made up and from the > parts, sales and service departments' own balance sheets). > Hope this helps :) It's always been clear to me, but your version is a tad on the muddy side. -- Regards, Noddy. > It's always been clear to me, but your version is a tad on the muddy side. Delivery fee. You argue: It is a rip-off as the dealer is maintaining his full primary profit margin and coming back for a second go af the money-tree and that the majoty of car buyers are stupid. I argue: It is a slimy ploy to make the advertised RRP appear less, BUT one should forget what the delivery fee is called as it has to be added to the retail price (invoice) anyhow, AND the dealer will make the same overall profit (bottom line) as he will calculate an overall margin which will keep him in business AND competition will keep him from charging more (ripping-off) than is a reasonable profit. I.E. Free Enterprise. It is clear that I will not convince you to come to my church and visa-versa so I guess this particular thread will have to end in a in stale-mate :) Cheers. > Delivery fee. > > You argue: > It is a rip-off as the dealer is maintaining his full primary profit > margin and coming back for a second go af the money-tree and that the > majoty of car buyers are stupid. Pretty much. If they had any brains at all they'd never buy a new car :) > I argue: > It is a slimy ploy to make the advertised RRP appear less, BUT one should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in business AND competition will keep him from charging more (ripping-off) > than is a reasonable profit. I.E. Free Enterprise. Now, when you put it like that, they are one and the same thing to me. > It is clear that I will not convince you to come to my church and > visa-versa so I guess this particular thread will have to end in a in > stale-mate :) Indeed. -- Regards, Noddy. > If they had any brains at all they'd never buy a new car :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ If noone bought new where would the second-hand cars come from? >> I argue: >> It is a slimy ploy to make the advertised RRP appear less, BUT one should [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Now, when you put it like that, they are one and the same thing to me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So PROFIT TO YOU IS BAD. You sound like a socialist ... a pagan socialist. -- Marx.and.Engels.were.DEAD.WRONG. >> If they had any brains at all they'd never buy a new car :) >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > Marx.and.Engels.were.DEAD.WRONG. Nothing wrong with being a pagan, pagans don't sacrifice virgins any more 'cos they can't find any. Christ was a bit of a lefty, wasn't he? > Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle > room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > expecting to see maybe a few hundred dollars (silly me), but I see > $1700 seems to be around the mark??? Thats stuff all compared to what I was charged for our Impreza, dealer delivery, plus rego, plus stamp duty etc etc was $2733.27 but that was offset by the $2651.62 "Discount" we got. The dealer delivery fee was $1400.00 which is completely over the top for wash and a quick check of the fluid levels but since I got the discount I didn't pay for any of that so I can't complain. Daryl > Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle > room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the warehouse, pick it up myself, unwrap the seats, peel off the > protective paint wrap, etc, etc... (O: transporting the car from the factory you havent factored, which for foreign cars includes the cost of the trip from the overseas factory to aus, then the pickup from wharf to either the dealer, or to the depot and then a subsequent trip to the dealer. for aus cars an interstate trip from melb or adelaide, which usually costs wholesale around 400 bucks. beyond that, its just whatever they have to do in store and their margin. a little like mechanics charging 100 bucks an hour, you're paying for their shop rent etc etc. On Jun 6, 8:51 pm, mark.thoma...@gmail.com wrote: > Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle > room is built in - in other words how much is genuine fee and how much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the warehouse, pick it up myself, unwrap the seats, peel off the > protective paint wrap, etc, etc... (O: Paid $100 for an origianl part ordered thru a Nissan automative garage, that the dealership wanted $600 for. > On Jun 6, 8:51 pm, mark.thoma...@gmail.com wrote: >> Just curious about what is typical these days, and how much wiggle [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Paid $100 for an origianl part ordered thru a Nissan automative > garage, that the dealership wanted $600 for. The dealer wanted $67.00 for a headlight globe for one of our DAF's, it was just an ordinary H7 globe which we picked up one elsewhere for $26.00. If you think car parts prices are ridiculous truck parts prices will scare the sh.t out of you. Daryl >The dealer wanted $67.00 for a headlight globe for one of our DAF's, it >was just an ordinary H7 globe which we picked up one elsewhere for $26.00. >If you think car parts prices are ridiculous truck parts prices will >scare the sh.t out of you. Especially European trucks! :) Most of the generic bi |
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