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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / June 2007Musings on power outages.
After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering an auto-start genset, converting the HWS to LPG and installing an LPG space heater. I'm thinking along the lines of about a 500L LPG storage tank (that's the limit before requiring workcover approval), and LPG genset (it'll have to be literally alongside the house and the houses are only about 2m apart, so need a relatively quiet and clean burning genset) with an exhaust stack to about roof height. Any recommendations on brands? Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability?  SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. >Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be >plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, >rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? There are units around from the likes of Rinnai and Bosch, but for mine, I'd go Solar or straight LP innstantaneous like Rinnai Infinity etc. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace, We've been expecting you. > There are units around from the likes of Rinnai and Bosch, but for > mine, I'd go Solar or straight LP innstantaneous like Rinnai Infinity > etc. I've got an Infinity here, and they're very good apart from a couple of points. You need to get the optional water temperature control unit as they're pretty average at maintaining temperature without it, and wiring the thing in can be a pain in the rectum depending on where you want it placed. The other point is that they need a three quarter inch natural gas feed pipe to work properly, and if you try to run one on a regular half inch gas supply it won't happen. I didn't know they made them in an lpg version, and would like to see one work as they need quite a flame to get the water hot. -- Regards, Noddy. >> There are units around from the likes of Rinnai and Bosch, but for >> mine, I'd go Solar or straight LP innstantaneous like Rinnai Infinity [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I didn't know they made them in an lpg version, and would like to see one >work as they need quite a flame to get the water hot. It's all about pipe sizing Noodle, any good plumber can install so they work properly. Rinnai do LPG in all their Infinity range. Oh and if you're having problems with it maintaining temps, it's either not installed properly, pipe sizes too small, has a blocked filter on the water inlet (the plastic plug on the inlet pipe) or in rare cases, you have an uncompatible water saving restrictor on the shower assuming that's where the problem is noticed. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace, We've been expecting you. >>You need to get the optional water temperature control unit as they're >>pretty average at maintaining temperature without it, and wiring the thing >>in can be a pain in the rectum depending on where you want it placed. I didn't mention that Rinnai do a wireless controller. Reciever can be installed anywhere. Thing is, you still need 240V to run the electrics in the Rinnai. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace, We've been expecting you. > It's all about pipe sizing Noodle, any good plumber can install so > they work properly. As I said in another post, they need a 3/4 inch natural gas supply to work properly. > Rinnai do LPG in all their Infinity range. Interesting. > Oh and if you're having problems with it maintaining temps, it's > either not installed properly, pipe sizes too small, has a blocked > filter on the water inlet (the plastic plug on the inlet pipe) or in > rare cases, you have an uncompatible water saving restrictor on the > shower assuming that's where the problem is noticed. None of the above. I'm not having any problems, and mine works great. I was just stating that they can be temperamental if not configured correctly. -- Regards, Noddy. >> It's all about pipe sizing Noodle, any good plumber can install so >> they work properly. > >As I said in another post, they need a 3/4 inch natural gas supply to work >properly. Nah, actually they don't. Depends entirely on the length of pipe from cylinders to the appliance. >> Rinnai do LPG in all their Infinity range. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I'm not having any problems, and mine works great. I was just stating that >they can be temperamental if not configured correctly. Ahh, OK, but configuration is set at the factory by the internal dip switches. It's installation that causes problems. If installed correctly they aren't temperamental at all, in fact they are pretty forgiving of even the dumbest plumbers work. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace, We've been expecting you. > Nah, actually they don't. > Depends entirely on the length of pipe from cylinders to the > appliance. When I mentioned "natural gas", I was actually talking about natural gas :) > Ahh, OK, but configuration is set at the factory by the internal dip > switches. > It's installation that causes problems. > If installed correctly they aren't temperamental at all, in fact they > are pretty forgiving of even the dumbest plumbers work. Well, when changing to one from a mains pressure storage tank system we couldn't get the thing to work happily on the standard half inch natural gas supply. We had the gas company out to check the meter & regulator (which was fine but they fitted a new one anyway and tested that to make sure it was okay), but it would still only *just* work in that it would light when you turned the tap on but not do much other than just warm the water. It was only after we bothered to read the f.cking manual that Rennai themselves recommend a 3/4 inch mains supply from the meter, and once fitted it runs like a champ :) -- Regards, Noddy. >> Nah, actually they don't. >> Depends entirely on the length of pipe from cylinders to the >> appliance. > >When I mentioned "natural gas", I was actually talking about natural gas :) Fair enough...Athol was talking about LPG, as was I. >> Ahh, OK, but configuration is set at the factory by the internal dip >> switches. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >okay), but it would still only *just* work in that it would light when you >turned the tap on but not do much other than just warm the water. On NG you would have needed 20mm. Too many brain dead plumbers out there. >It was only after we bothered to read the f.cking manual that Rennai >themselves recommend a 3/4 inch mains supply from the meter, and once fitted >it runs like a champ :) Yep, I have 2 of them here, big house, we've run 32mm and broken down to 25mm for each heater on NG. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace, We've been expecting you. > On NG you would have needed 20mm. Yep. Three quarter inch in any plumbing supplies outlet :) -- Regards, Noddy. > Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be > plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, > rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? Not off the top of my head, but most mains pressure natural gas hot water systems can be had with optional lpg burning jets to convert them to bottled gas use if that helps. I ran mine on lpg for a few weeks when we had the gas outage a few years ago after the Longford explosion, and the kit was available from the local plumber's supply outlet for about 40 bucks. Took about half an hour to convert the unit over to lpg use, and you wouldn't have known any difference. -- Regards, Noddy. >>Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be >>plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. plenty of lpg hot water systems available and quite common in places with no reticulated gas as for a Genset, how big, I'm sure a normal petrol unit could be converted to lpg using a setup from a car Kev >> Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be >> plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, >> rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? > Not off the top of my head, but most mains pressure natural gas hot water > systems can be had with optional lpg burning jets to convert them to bottled > gas use if that helps. Yeah, I'm aware of that. Actually, in the context of the genset being there, the other option is to get a heat pump water heater like I know Hunter Area Health Service has been using at several of their hospitals for about a decade. If the heat pump has a COP of 3, it will be effectively using 1/3 the power that a standard electrical element would be using. Install that right now and I could cut my power bills somewhat. Off hand, I'm not sure what the payback time would be. SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. >>> Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be >>> plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > now and I could cut my power bills somewhat. Off hand, I'm not sure > what the payback time would be. Only speaking for SEQld but auto cut over gen sets are illegal for residences here. Manual only. I'd have to check whats concidered residential over commercial if you live at the same place you work. Honda Gensets are fantastic for small applications depending on what your load is. >Only speaking for SEQld but auto cut over gen sets are illegal for >residences here. Manual only. I'd have to check whats concidered >residential over commercial if you live at the same place you work. Illegal to have them automatically switched but it's quite OK to have a manual changeover switch on the main board and an auto start gen set. I've had a 10kVA diesel unit set up that way for years. Flick the switch and it bursts into life. Apparently they worry about the possibility of the gen set output being accidentally connected to the mains, and hence won't allow switching with relays. It makes sense if there's wires down somewhere (or someone working on a broken line). >Honda Gensets are fantastic for small applications depending on what your >load is. A lot of TV sets think otherwise (they don't like the waveform) but they're great for emergency lighting, etc. Mine lives in the laundry. :) SignatureJohn H > > Honda Gensets are fantastic for small applications depending on > > what your load is. > > A lot of TV sets think otherwise (they don't like the waveform) but > they're great for emergency lighting, etc. Mine lives in the laundry. > :) I wonder how the output from an alternator can be anything other than pure sine? I'd be more inclined to think that the problem is either frequency or that the Tv present a bigger load than th egenny is capable of meeting. -- >> > Honda Gensets are fantastic for small applications depending on >> > what your load is. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I wonder how the output from an alternator can be anything other than >pure sine? Most aren't alternators. They're DC generators with an inverter. >I'd be more inclined to think that the problem is either frequency or >that the Tv present a bigger load than th egenny is capable of meeting. SignatureJohn H > > I wonder how the output from an alternator can be anything other > > than pure sine? > > Most aren't alternators. They're DC generators with an inverter. Are you referring to specific Honda models, or small generators generally? It does strike me as more than passing strange that a manufacturer would firstly create a DC generator with all the complication that entails, then stick an inverter onto the back of it. In fact it pricked my curiosity so ,much that I went and had a look. Now I only Canvassed Honda, Yamaha and Subaru/Robin so it might be possible to say that my sample isn't representative. But it does tend to point up a few inaccuracies in what you have said. 1/. None of them are DC generators, they are all alternators that are rectified eletronically to DC and then inverted to AC. The reason for doing this is to provide precision sine wave and frequency control to the same standard, or better, than that of mains power. If a TV will not operate form one of these gennys, it is most likley that the TV's power requirements simply exceed the power rating of the genny in question. -- >If a TV will not operate form one of these gennys, it is most likley >that the TV's power requirements simply exceed the power rating of the >genny in question. Nope. Even a large TV set (CRT) is typically less than 200W max. IIRC it was a horizontal sync issue on the set I've only recently upgraded (and I haven't tried its replacement). It needed a clean and steady 50 Hz waveform to produce a stable picture (which you don't get from a small Honda). Probably only an issue with the inverter type gensets -- which is most, if not all the small portables (it's a size/weight thing). They're typically .5 - 2 kVA (which isn't quite the same thing as kW). Next group (which are larger and heavier) use 2 pole alternators, powered by petrol engines, which probably won't have the same problem with TV sets but don't expect them to hold voltage or frequency to any degree of accuracy. Typically 2 - 5 kVA. Tradies use 'em for running power tools and the likes. Top of the line single phase gensets are 4 pole machines, invariably powered by multi-cylinder diesels, which have an output that's indistinguishable from mains for all practical purposes (other than for running large electric motors). Typical domestic units (designed to run a household continuously) are around 8.5 - 10 kVA. SignatureJohn H John_H said.... >>I wonder how the output from an alternator can be anything other than >>pure sine? > > Most aren't alternators. They're DC generators with an inverter. then they're crap inverters on them. Thing is, i've not heard of anyone having issues with portable gensets running electronic devices. This is particularly so for the caravanning tourists who may have a portable generator built in to their Jayco to drive things like microwave, TV, radio, etc. SignatureHe's heavy for his weight... >>Only speaking for SEQld but auto cut over gen sets are illegal for >>residences here. Manual only. I'd have to check whats concidered [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > they're great for emergency lighting, etc. Mine lives in the laundry. > :) The smaller gensets are pretty much all modified sqaure wave arent they? Id rather use a small UPS/Solar set up with some decent batteries. (Around 1000Ahrs should do it) Using a decent inverter you can get an almost perfect sine wave that anything will run off. > The smaller gensets are pretty much all modified sqaure wave arent > they? Id rather use a small UPS/Solar set up with some decent > batteries. (Around 1000Ahrs should do it) After looking at the specs for Honda, Yamaha and Subaru/robin, they all *claim* to be pure sine. In any event, any television made this century has a chopper power supply and could not give a fat rat's arse whether the feed 240 is pure sine, mod square wave or probably even just square wave. No television worth more than 10c would derive any sync signal from mains supply. I've used a 2.2kva Subaru/Robin (straight Ac output) for emergency power for bloody years, it has recently been replaced by a dirt cheap Chinese diesel "silenced cabinet" unit (also just a plain jane straight AC output) because it features remote start - wife never did master the art of starting the Subaru in spite of it being the easiest starting "pull start" engine I've ever had anything to do with. We still have the Subaru- just at the weekender now. In any event, both the Subaru and now the Chinese cheapie have run multiple televisions, Computers, routers, switches, Voip adaptors, PVRs, DVBs, stereo equipmet etc with absolutely zero problems. In fact the only tme the poor little subaru has faltered is when I've forgotten to drop the breakers on the a/c circuits and the poor little thing has tried to start a 22,000btu a/c - which is just a tad beyond it, or when wife has absent-mindedly filled the kettle and pressed the "go" button having forgotten the instructions to not do so (mind you I'll fess up to having done that one myself). Anyway- never seen a hint of any picture problems on TVs ranging from a decent 88cm in the lounge, through to the cheap and cheerful 55cm (purchased from Crazy Clarks) that lives on the verandah - and a couple of portable and small LCD ones as well. Returning to the OP's comments.....I don't believe that a genny of sufficient capacity will have any trouble driving a modern design TV. > Using a decent inverter you can get an almost perfect sine wave that > anything will run off. Agreed. Been using one for a long while at the weekender - the killer is the cost of the solar panels and batteries needed to meet "normal" load which is why the old genny lives there as well now. -- >> Using a decent inverter you can get an almost perfect sine wave that >> anything will run off. > > Agreed. Been using one for a long while at the weekender - the killer > is the cost of the solar panels and batteries needed to meet "normal" > load which is why the old genny lives there as well now. Well all I need is the solar panels, batteries arent an issue for me, I have a significant supply of very good condition used units with no use more than a wonderfully filtered regulated charge at full float voltage. ;o) Those 12v-200Ahrs get bloody heavy in the back of the 4runner though. > Those 12v-200Ahrs get bloody heavy in the back of the 4runner though. Which reminds me. I was going to buy some batteries from you last year, but the transport costs were a killer. I'm in S.E QLD for the rest of the year, might organise to buy some from you and take back with me. The "dunger" ute I get around in is proving to be reliable and bloody handy i think i'll keep it and take it back with me, so I'll have some carrying capacity - I'll be taking an offroad camping trailer back with me as well. -- >> Those 12v-200Ahrs get bloody heavy in the back of the 4runner though. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > carrying capacity - I'll be taking an offroad camping trailer back with > me as well. What size (Ahr) and do you want new or 2nd hand (but in good order, a long wait between good ones sometimes as well as I dont let ones go that are a bit dodgy if I can help it.) I can now get new at pretty good prices as well if you are keen. Do you have charging facilities in the order of 13.5-15 volts DC? (Best kept at at least 12.5 volts to keep life of battery long and healthy) Scotty PS Which part of SEQld RU in? > What size (Ahr) and do you want new or 2nd hand (but in good order, a > long wait between good ones sometimes as well as I dont let ones go > that are a bit dodgy if I can help it.) As big as possible. Existing batteries are 100amp/hr (or thereabouts) gel cells (ex-telstra) > I can now get new at pretty good prices as well if you are keen. Might even do that if things go well for me here. > Do you have charging facilities in the order of 13.5-15 volts DC? > (Best kept at at least 12.5 volts to keep life of battery long and > healthy) A "sunpower" solar controller which does the tricky stuff attached to a 2m*3m BP panel array. It was bought on recommendation of the guy who "aquired" the ex-telstra gel cells for me - it has a specific switch to tell it if you are using Wet cell, Gel cell, NIFE or NiCad batteries. In case you are tempted to laugh at the last - Helicopters have NiCad batteries due to the extreme start load - I once used one in a car for a couple of years that was too "stuffed" to start a Jetranger anymore. Was going to get another but they figured that using a Gel cell and replacing it every couple of months was still $1,000s in front of replacing the Nicad every year or so. When I bought the controller I was seriously thinking about importing NIFE cells from India (last place on Earth they are made I think), but further research into the idiosyncracies of NIFE led me to abandon the idea - mainly becuase we aren't there for weeks on end and need systems that don't require monitoring. I bought big on the controller - it can handle three times the array I currently have. The current (pun unintended) weak links are a lack of battery power and an undersized inverter. I can run lights TV, "sunfrost' fridge etc, but need to run the genny to run pumps to get water from bore. Things like washing machine, vacuum cleaner etc can only run if eveything else disconnected. > Scotty > > PS Which part of SEQld RU in? Sunshine Coast -- >>> Using a decent inverter you can get an almost perfect sine wave that >>> anything will run off. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Those 12v-200Ahrs get bloody heavy in the back of the 4runner though. If you get a spare for spinning a large automotive situation we should talk . >>>> Using a decent inverter you can get an almost perfect sine wave that >>>> anything will run off. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If you get a spare for spinning a large automotive situation we should > talk . Let me know crank amps and reserve required. Usually SLABs are not that flash with heavy (400Amps +) crank loads. Large deisels pumps etc that use the 100Ahr + are replaced at 2 years old but they are still very capable of cranking. If you require new ones let me know and I can give you a price. Retail for SLABs are f**ken expensive but we go through a heap of em so the prices drops dramatically. > Let me know crank amps and reserve required. Usually SLABs are not that > flash with heavy (400Amps +) crank loads. Large deisels pumps etc that use > the 100Ahr + are replaced at 2 years old but they are still very capable of > cranking. If you require new ones let me know and I can give you a price. > Retail for SLABs are f**ken expensive but we go through a heap of em so the > prices drops dramatically. Hmm. I'll be up in Belmont for a few days in July. Might have to look at the economics of a few batteries. Could do with some capacity both at home and in the bus if I ever get any more done on it... SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. Scotty said.... > The smaller gensets are pretty much all modified sqaure wave arent they? > Id rather use a small UPS/Solar set up with some decent batteries. > (Around 1000Ahrs should do it) > > Using a decent inverter you can get an almost perfect sine wave that > anything will run off. With most appliances such as those that use electronics, they'll have a rectifier in them anyway to convert the AC supply back to DC. So, should a "choppy" sinewave be an issue with something that will be recified back to DC? Only thing that I'm not sure about are CRT type TVs that have an EHT in them. Dunno what their requirements are. SignatureIt's not hard to meet expenses, they are everywhere. On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:24:04 +1000, Peelah Ben Arhna <benarhna@yahoo.com.au>, after considering some belly-button fluf, wrote: [...] >With most appliances such as those that use electronics, they'll have a >rectifier in them anyway to convert the AC supply back to DC. So, should >a "choppy" sinewave be an issue with something that will be recified >back to DC? Yes - they have power factor correction caps in them. They will use *considerably* more power if you run them on non-sine wave power. Neil --- Neil Fisher / Bob Young Thundercords personal opinion unless otherwise noted. Looking for spark plug leads? Check out http://www.magnecor.com.au [...] >Apparently they worry about the possibility of the gen set output >being accidentally connected to the mains, and hence won't allow >switching with relays. It makes sense if there's wires down somewhere >(or someone working on a broken line). What about an MG set permanently wired in? Mechanical drive to gen from either AC motor or petrol engine/bicycle etc. Could even have some mechanical storage for the change-over time. Of course, the downside is that the gen needs to be able to supply enough power for *all* your needs all the time, so would be considerably larger, presumably. Neil --- Neil Fisher / Bob Young Thundercords personal opinion unless otherwise noted. Looking for spark plug leads? Check out http://www.magnecor.com.au John_H said.... > Apparently they worry about the possibility of the gen set output > being accidentally connected to the mains, and hence won't allow One of the problems is synchronising it to the system. On a small set it won't matter that much if it sync's out of phase. It doesn't have the mechanical inertia to cause any damage. But it may blow fuses or pop MCBs in the house if there's a voltage or current surge due to a mismatch. And if the main fuse to the house blows you have to pay to get the power company to replace it. And yeah, the idea of a generator feeding the system if there's an outage is an issue. You can potentially step up 240v to anything up to 66kv if the trannies are all still connected. SignatureCalling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color - D Hirschberg >Actually, in the context of the genset being there, the other option is >to get a heat pump water heater like I know Hunter Area Health Service [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >now and I could cut my power bills somewhat. Off hand, I'm not sure >what the payback time would be. Plenty of reliability issues with the heatpump heaters. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace, We've been expecting you. >> Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be >> plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > convert the unit over to lpg use, and you wouldn't have known any > difference. **It all depends on your power needs, but you could consider an alternate idea: Solar power. The Libs are bumping their Solar power grant to $8k. If Labor gets in at the next election, they'll offer $10k, interest free loan for Solar power. That makes a potential $18k for virtually nothing. Figure on spending around $25k for a full, battery backed Solar power system. With the grants and loans, you'll pay around $7k. Noiseless and you'll pay bugger all for electricity again. You'll even be able to charge your electric car for zip. SignatureTrevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Solar power. The Libs are bumping their Solar power grant to $8k. Okay. That's a grant. > If Labor > gets in at the next election, they'll offer $10k, interest free loan for > Solar power. That's a loan. Still has to be paid back. With no information about the interest free period, loan terms, etc. I'd ignore that completely in calculations. > That makes a potential $18k for virtually nothing. No. It makes $8K of meaningful grant and $10K worth of DEBT. > Figure on > spending around $25k for a full, battery backed Solar power system. With the > grants and loans, you'll pay around $7k. Nope. $25K spend minus $8K grant equals $17K. > Noiseless and you'll pay bugger all > for electricity again. You'll even be able to charge your electric car for > zip. Nice theory. I'm still waiting for my wife (architectural draftsperson) to get the plans for a house extension sorted out. The extension will be 2-storeys high and will shadow much of the existing roof. The house faces north- west, so the extension will have a NW-facing hip and NE and SW-facing large faces. Until the extension is built, we can't really do anything about solar power or hot water. SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. "Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message news:466da648$0$16311 > Solar power. The Libs are bumping their Solar power grant to $8k. If Labor > gets in at the next election, they'll offer $10k, interest free loan for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bugger all for electricity again. You'll even be able to charge your > electric car for zip. The problems with Solar are that (a) it's hideously expensive, and (b) you need some form of alternative power for the times when you get very little sun. -- Regards, Noddy. > "Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message > news:466da648$0$16311 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > need some form of alternative power for the times when you get very little > sun. **Yep. That's why I wrote "battery backed". SignatureTrevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com "Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message news:466e2eaf$0$16285 > **Yep. That's why I wrote "battery backed". You'd need a *shitload* of batteries to do anything if you had a few gloomy days in succession. -- Regards, Noddy. > "Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message > news:466e2eaf$0$16285 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You'd need a *shitload* of batteries to do anything if you had a few > gloomy days in succession. **That depends on your particular requirements. For my, rather normal needs (small, not too power hungry workshop, a couple of fridges, microwave oven, pool filter, TV, hot water heating, lighting, etc) a battery capable of sustaining 5 days operation would cost around AUS$4k. Eliminating non-essential stuff, like the pool filter, I can get a lot more. I do agree that battery operation is a VERY expensive way of solving the problem. It has it's other benefits, however. SignatureTrevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first > outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering > an auto-start genset, converting the HWS to LPG and installing an LPG > space heater. Yesterday, after trying to move stuff, and giving up from house, was surprised to find no power. Check pole, check house, check 'box, scratch various body parts and wonder prezactly how EA processed the request to disconnect. It was all back on today. > I'm thinking along the lines of about a 500L LPG storage tank (that's > the limit before requiring workcover approval), and LPG genset (it'll have to > be literally alongside the house and the houses are only about 2m apart, > so need a relatively quiet and clean burning genset) with an exhaust stack > to about roof height. Any recommendations on brands? You might find a diesel one :-p > Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be > plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, > rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? I got one out at the farm. Take the guts out of a Rheem gas heater and just use that, with a bit of playing around works on LPG (servo style) That's what I'll be using this winter in Orange. 12V pump from the tank which is a little higher than than the heater - works well. >> After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first >> outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering >> an auto-start genset, converting the HWS to LPG and installing an LPG >> space heater. > Yesterday, after trying to move stuff, and giving up > from house, was surprised to find no power. Check > pole, check house, check 'box, scratch various body > parts and wonder prezactly how EA processed the > request to disconnect. It was all back on today. LOL. >> I'm thinking along the lines of about a 500L LPG storage tank (that's >> the limit before requiring workcover approval), and LPG genset (it'll have to >> be literally alongside the house and the houses are only about 2m apart, >> so need a relatively quiet and clean burning genset) with an exhaust stack >> to about roof height. Any recommendations on brands? > You might find a diesel one :-p Nope. Fails the "quiet" and "clean burning" criteria. >> Anybody know if an LPG heater is available off-the-shelf that can be >> plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, >> rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? > I got one out at the farm. Take the guts out of a Rheem > gas heater and just use that, with a bit of playing around > works on LPG (servo style) That's what I'll be using > this winter in Orange. 12V pump from the tank which > is a little higher than than the heater - works well. I don't think that you got it. I'm talking about taking water out of the side of a mains pressure HWS tank, circulate through a gas heater then return it to the storage tank in the same way as a lot of solar HWS do. As mentioned elsewhere, alternative is heat pump tacked on side in same way. SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. >>> After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first >>> outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > HWS do. As mentioned elsewhere, alternative is heat pump tacked on > side in same way. The heat pump makes a better idea , you can even but them brand new in Brisbane , of course it is another thing to go wrong . > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the > first outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > heating, rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating > capability? Athol, I have a 6.7KVA Scorpion Silent Series. It works well but silent it is not! Had to build a sound proof box for it. Other than tiny gen set, most will be noisy. You could build a small brick housing for one, which would help. Ron > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first > outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, > rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? The genny is easy , your needing an instant heat gas system that Kiwi company make them (Rinnai ?) We used one when I was a youngster and it's very good with hot supply with in a few seconds. > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first > outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, > rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? Good idea Athol,..you'll need an economical gas supplier,...if you know what I mean. Gas heaters are the way to go. 1kw = 3.6mj. Max electric-heat per circuit 2.4kw Most 5 pad gas-heaters are 25mj or roughly 6kw. Heat much of your house. "Delivered" bottles are $100 for 80l of vapour out here. Jason > Good idea Athol,..you'll need an economical gas supplier,...if you know what > I mean. Gas heaters are the way to go. 1kw = 3.6mj. Max electric-heat per > circuit 2.4kw Most 5 pad gas-heaters are 25mj or roughly 6kw. Heat much of > your house. "Delivered" bottles are $100 for 80l of vapour out here. > > Jason How long do you find a bottle lasts you? Cheers Adam > > Good idea Athol,..you'll need an economical gas supplier,...if you know what > > I mean. Gas heaters are the way to go. 1kw = 3.6mj. Max electric-heat per > > circuit 2.4kw Most 5 pad gas-heaters are 25mj or roughly 6kw. Heat much of > > your house. "Delivered" bottles are $100 for 80l of vapour out here. The place I'm staying ATM there is a 9KG bottle that runs it for a week. I don't need heating, however the person that does here uses a bottle a week (which I think is a little excessive). Got a fork lift cylinder which is good for filling 2 x 9KG bottles, filled at the servo LPG bowser. This arvo prolly have to take it down and refill it. I guess that works at around $10 a week. At the country farm I'm going to shortly is another forklift bottle that powers the stove, hot water, fridge for around 3 to four weeks. Water pump battery charged by a solar panel (not sure how thats going to work well in winter). The 240V gennie is a Hahahaonda. It's recent trick is to rev highly on startup which tends to blow up plugged in stuff at the time (bloody petrol engines - I need a diesel one). > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first > outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, > rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? You could go solar for the HWS and still keep your existing tank. > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first > outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > plumbed into the side of an existing water tank to convert to gas heating, > rather than dumping the tank and losing the electric heating capability? When we travelled about on the motorcycles, we went for 11 weeks without 240v electricity. Had a petrol stove to cook on. Kept the beer cold in a space blanket with cheap bag of ice. SLA battery charged off the bike via diode for lighting and a 2" television. What more could you want? Al -- >> After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first >> outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > When we travelled about on the motorcycles, we went for 11 weeks without > 240v electricity. Had a petrol stove to cook on. Yummy, bet ya food taste like petrol did it? Kept the beer cold in a > space blanket with cheap bag of ice. SLA battery charged off the bike > via diode for lighting and a 2" television. What more could you want? > > Al > -- Hot water? Fresh food, dunno, lifes little luxuries > "Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message >> When we travelled about on the motorcycles, we went for 11 weeks without >> 240v electricity. Had a petrol stove to cook on. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Hot water? Fresh food, dunno, lifes little luxuries Clean clothes? >> "Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Clean clothes? nah they are on bikes, whos going to smell them they get blow dries each day. ;o) > >> "Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > nah they are on bikes, whos going to smell them they get blow dries each > day. ;o) There are things called unpowered tent sites in van parks. Usually have perfectly usable showers and dunnies. Al -- > > >> "Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message > > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > There are things called unpowered tent sites in van parks. Usually have > perfectly usable showers and dunnies. Yeah but ya gotta walk to the amenities block. Stuff that,..dig a Kybo on the quiet so you can just step-out for a quick wizz or sh.t. They wont notice or want to investigate the smell, with all that macho-bikey thing going! Jason > > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first > > outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > space blanket with cheap bag of ice. SLA battery charged off the bike > via diode for lighting and a 2" television. What more could you want? A bottle of Bundy and a local mole,......f.ck me,..cant you run a decent sized screen tele? Jason > > > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first > > > outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > A bottle of Bundy and a local mole,......f.ck me,..cant you run a decent > sized screen tele? The 2" telly sucked more duracell batteries than a local moles vibrator. Reason to have the SLA y'see. Then a voltage reg for about 8 volts where it worked the best. Local moles take note. Al SignatureWhen schools of fish were studied, it was found that the leaders had brain damage. We, the public should therefore demand a similar study be carried out on our leaders. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html Athol said.... > After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first > outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering > an auto-start genset, converting the HWS to LPG and installing an LPG > space heater. No natural gas where you are? And how often do these outages occur? Is it worth the expense to power-proof your home? What about solar heating backed up to either LPG/Natural gas or electric heating? Or running an LPG HWS in series with your existing setup - it'd only run when the power/sun is not providing the required energy input. ie. install something like the Rinnai Infinity with solar HWS. Have it connected as such: Solar -> electric -> Rinnai/LPG. Solar pre-heats water. Lowers power consumption. If power lost, Rinnai kicks in. Or if water goes cold due to heavy use, Rinnai again, kicks in. And there are now greater rebates for Solar water installations. As for a generator, if you're in a situation where a natural disaster has taken the power off, chances are you may not be able to stay around, anyway, in times of extreme flood, bushfire or whatever. Get a portable Honda generator and use it to run your fridge, freezer and one or two portable lamps. You can also use it if you go 4WD camping or whatever. Or you can go the whole hog - install a battery system with inverters. Have generator backup. Disconnect completely from external power supply. Or, if you have 3 ph power, use it solely for the workshop or whatever. > I'm thinking along the lines of about a 500L LPG storage tank (that's the > limit before requiring workcover approval), and LPG genset (it'll have to And don't forget that LPG for the home is around a dollar a litre. It may be more - that's what it cost us from Elgas back in 2004 when we lived out of town. We'd go through a 300l cylinder in around 6 weeks. And that was for a smallish HWS, gas cooking and the occasional use of a gas space heater (most heating was wood fire Koonara). SignatureLove is one long sweet dream, and marriage is the alarm clock... > Athol said.... >> After having no power for around 40 hours, and this not being the first >> outage lasting for more than 2 hours this year, I'm seriously considering >> an auto-start genset, converting the HWS to LPG and installing an LPG >> space heater. > No natural gas where you are? Nope. We're in a suburban dead spot. The shopping centre 800m NW has gas, as does the school 500m E and the industrial estate 1km W. I'm not certain but I think that there is also NG in Cardiff South, about 300m S (the other side of a stormwater channel). > And how often do these outages occur? Is it worth the expense to > power-proof your home? Every large electrical storm sees at least half an hour without power and about 3 to 5 times a year we're without power for over 2 hours, often being closer to 12 hours. The recent outage was about 40 hours on all phases, then another 56 or so with 2 phases up and one down due to a blown fuse on the 11kV stepdown transformer. > What about solar heating backed up to either LPG/Natural gas or electric > heating? Or running an LPG HWS in series with your existing setup - it'd > only run when the power/sun is not providing the required energy input. I'm sure that somewhere in one of the threads since this happened, I mentioned that I'm waiting for the architectural draftsperson in the house to get the drawings for extensions done. The 2-storey extensions will have a much better roof elevation for solar but will also shadow the existing roof, so I can't do anything about solar until the extensions are done. > ie. install something like the Rinnai Infinity with solar HWS. Have it > connected as such: > As for a generator, if you're in a situation where a natural disaster > has taken the power off, chances are you may not be able to stay around, > anyway, in times of extreme flood, bushfire or whatever. Nope. The house floor level is about 800mm above the garage floor level, and the garage only got a few mm of water because the drain backed up. Bushfire would struggle to get anywhere close, particularly with the trees on the creek bank being washed away by the recent flooding... As above, a decent electrical storm takes out the power and is hardly what I'd call a natural disaster. If it wasn't for the power going off, life would continue as normal inside the house. > Get a portable Honda generator and use it to run your fridge, freezer > and one or two portable lamps. You can also use it if you go 4WD camping > or whatever. I'll eventually get a generator for the bus. I probably should try to sort that out and use it for the house in the meantime. No, I don't plan on buying a little toy that struggles to drive a laser printer... I need to be able to operate my business during a blackout. The only reason why the recent storms didn't severely affect my work is because it started late Friday, affecting only 2 customers. By the end of the long weekend, things were normal enough to get back to work... > Or you can go the whole hog - install a battery system with inverters. > Have generator backup. Disconnect completely from external power supply. > Or, if you have 3 ph power, use it solely for the workshop or whatever. If I got really enthusiastic *after the extensions are done* I could install solar with batteries and sell the excess back to Energy Australia. :-) >> I'm thinking along the lines of about a 500L LPG storage tank (that's the >> limit before requiring workcover approval), and LPG genset (it'll have to > And don't forget that LPG for the home is around a dollar a litre. It > may be more - that's what it cost us from Elgas back in 2004 when we > lived out of town. We'd go through a 300l cylinder in around 6 weeks. > And that was for a smallish HWS, gas cooking and the occasional use of a > gas space heater (most heating was wood fire Koonara). I'm in a residential area so the delivery charges are lower. Also, as I would be buying for a genset, I'd be eligible to purchase autogas instead of domestic purity propane. Then, on top of that, fuel used in the genset is eligible for the diesel and alternate fuels rebate (or whatever it's called this week) in the same way as vehicles used off the road... Strangely, it appears that using LPG to power a generator that powers an electric HWS is eligible for the excise rebate but burning the LPG in a gas HWS is not!?! SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. Athol said.... > Nope. We're in a suburban dead spot. The shopping centre 800m NW has > gas, as does the school 500m E and the industrial estate 1km W. I'm not > certain but I think that there is also NG in Cardiff South, about 300m S > (the other side of a stormwater channel). It's a bugger when that's the case. I lived out of town on 5 acres for a while. We had the Longford-MEL NG line go past our place. It would've taken a 100m line to connect us to the system. But it would've cost us a fortune for the reticulation system to be installed. So, we endured super expensive LPG, firewood and briquettes. A mate was in a similar spot, except he lives closer in. He wanted to get onto NG but when he approached his neighbors they all declined to go in to share the costs. He would've paid around $10k to get connected. Back then if he'd done so, then his neighbors would've been able to connect for the normal price. These days they would have to reimburse the mate had he done this now and they all wanted in later on. Anyway, normal urban development has meant that he is no longer "out of town". Houses are springing up around him. I understand that the developers are interested in his and his neighbors' land. He can also get connected to gas if he wants to for the normal cost. > No, I don't plan on buying a little toy that struggles to drive a laser > printer... I need to be able to operate my business during a blackout. What about a decent sied UPS, then. Hey we've just decommissioned a 200KVA one at work that I may be able to get for you.... SignatureChange is inevitable, except from a vending machine. > What about a decent sied UPS, then. > Hey we've just decommissioned a 200KVA one at work that I may be able to > get for you.... Where, and how much? :-) SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. Athol said.... >> Hey we've just decommissioned a 200KVA one at work that I may be able >> to get for you.... > > Where, and how much? :-) At a power station. But I think that it might be sitting in one of the warehouses as a spare. Although it's well past its use by date (it's 16yo). If you could afford to transport it to where you live, who knows, you might get it for nix. SignatureTwo rules for success: 1. Don't tell everything you know. > Athol said.... >>> Hey we've just decommissioned a 200KVA one at work that I may be able >>> to get for you.... >> Where, and how much? :-) > At a power station. But I think that it might be sitting in one of the > warehouses as a spare. Although it's well past its use by date (it's > 16yo). > If you could afford to transport it to where you live, who knows, you > might get it for nix. I'm guessing that it's in VIC somewhere? The problem with something like that is that it's bound to need new batteries and the cost of that is likely to be more than the unit is worth... SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. Athol said.... > The problem with something like that is that it's bound to need new > batteries and the cost of that is likely to be more than the unit is > worth... Yep. It had been connected to a 400v battery (around 200 cells if I remember correctly). Some of them were retired as the replacement UPS is about half the original's rating. The old one was meant for greater capacity but it was never required. SignatureBehind every successful man is a woman, behind her is his wife. - G. Marx |
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