Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / February 2008
Why is diesel more expensive than petrol? 2part question
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pit - 24 Feb 2008 21:16 GMT Lots of theories . So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus Cars. 1 The subject heading is the first part of the question.
2 If Diesel was cheaper. given that new technology has made them more attractive (albeit more expensive) would buyers migrate to diesels and why.
Serious question as getting fed up with all this ozone bashing. Come to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) Cheers P
Jason James - 24 Feb 2008 22:48 GMT > Lots of theories . > So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) > Cheers P I can remember when Diesel was *at least* half or less the price of petrol. It's the old story, more demand for a particular fuel eg LPG and diesel,..UP goes the @ucking price.
Jason
Albm&ctd - 25 Feb 2008 02:22 GMT > > Lots of theories . > > So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Jason It's caused by the FITCH FUEL CATALYST.. ahem.. well maybe you should please consider *catalytic cracking* to look up in your leisure :-)
Al
 Signature I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html
veritas - 25 Feb 2008 03:04 GMT > I can remember when Diesel was *at least* half or less the price of petrol. > It's the old story, more demand for a particular fuel eg LPG and diesel,..UP > goes the @ucking price. Depending on how far you "go back". At one stage, diesel fuel oil didn't have any of the excise and taxes that petrol did. The lost govco revenue, however, was pickup by exorbitant (non-farm) registration fees on diesel vehicles.
I remember a guy in Sydney had a 30 CWT truck which originally had a petrol engine – he fitted a diesel engine and didn't tell RTA - he had the best of both worlds - except he had to rely of a "friend" to do his RWC while not noticing the different engine number every year.
 Signature Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
OzOne - 24 Feb 2008 23:19 GMT >Lots of theories . >So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus >Cars. Now taht's a big ask!!
>1 The subject heading is the first part of the question. Because Gov.Co is reaming us EU countries sell diesel at a fraction of the cost of petrol because it costs a small fraction of the cost of making petrol to produce.
>2 If Diesel was cheaper. given that new technology has made them more >attractive (albeit more expensive) >would buyers migrate to diesels and why. Yes..because they're cheaper to run and require less maintenance....though petrol engines have far longer service intervals these days and other than Holden and Ford, apparently very reliable.
>Serious question as getting fed up with all this ozone bashing. Come >to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) Yeah...but the clowns just can't help themselves...I refused to join when I found out that one of the requirements was taht I lick Noddy's arse.
>Cheers P OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Noddy - 24 Feb 2008 23:30 GMT > Lots of theories . > So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus > Cars. > 1 The subject heading is the first part of the question. It's more expensive because people are looking for an alternative to petrol.
Supply and demand.
> 2 If Diesel was cheaper. given that new technology has made them more > attractive (albeit more expensive) > would buyers migrate to diesels and why. I think they would, but a lot of it would be through sheer ignorance.
Diesel certainly *isn't* the cheapest way to go as far as fuel choices are concerned these days. That honour belongs to lpg, and there's nothing I can see on the horizon that's going to change that. I think before diesel has a chance of becoming mainstream the premium you pay for a diesel engine needs to disappear, and the fuel itself needs to get cheaper. Mass production could easily see diesel variants of common cars being the same price as petrol ones, but as far as the fuel itself being knocked down I can't see that happening.
On a purely economical scale, diesel is a pretty unnatractive alternative at the moment.
> Serious question as getting fed up with all this ozone bashing. Come > to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) You're definitely in the wrong place :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
OzOne - 24 Feb 2008 23:47 GMT >> Serious question as getting fed up with all this ozone bashing. Come >> to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) > >You're definitely in the wrong place :) Yep, Seems that the entire group is obsessed with little ole me.
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Just JT - 24 Feb 2008 23:53 GMT >> Lots of theories . >> So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Supply and demand. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Uh oh, Toby would shite on his pants again with the above!!
-- Its.gotta.be.aliens.manipulating.earthly.prices!!!!
the_dawggie - 25 Feb 2008 01:02 GMT > Supply and demand. I give the finger to petrol powered folk when diesel and petrol go to the same price, because I'm on a bargain.. yes however diesel should be cheaper than what it is. FuelCo know how to make money. I can power my vehicle for $0.02, or If I want performance better than bought diesel, around $0.26 per litre making my own. 1 litre goes 10 km. The cost in that is the methanol.
> > 2 If Diesel was cheaper. given that new technology has made them more > > attractive (albeit more expensive) > > would buyers migrate to diesels and why. > > I think they would, but a lot of it would be through sheer ignorance. Um, no. There is no way in hell I'll buy another SI engine thing unless I have to. If I have to it will be LPG.
> Diesel certainly *isn't* the cheapest way to go as far as fuel choices are > concerned these days. That honour belongs to lpg, and there's nothing I can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > petrol ones, but as far as the fuel itself being knocked down I can't see > that happening. I don't really think I paid much a premium on my 'lux when I bought it second hand with 15,550km on it - well not over a new one anyway.
Of course, the turbo kit I installed costed. The thing is 17 years old and runs/looks like new, so I just don't care. A petrol sh.tter does not tend to do that. Mind you, I've maintained it properly.
> On a purely economical scale, diesel is a pretty unnatractive alternative at > the moment. Build your own diesel, and you win. Petrol customers are the losers. LPG is a long way ahead of petrol.
> > Serious question as getting fed up with all this ozone bashing. Come > > to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) > > You're definitely in the wrong place :) Absolutely :-)
Noddy - 25 Feb 2008 04:15 GMT "the_dawggie" <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:00d29fd2-6042-4bb4-a27a-
> Um, no. There is no way in hell I'll buy another SI engine thing > unless I have to. If I have to it will be LPG. What's the difference between lpg & petrol for f.ck's sake? :)
> I don't really think I paid much a premium on my 'lux when I bought it > second hand with 15,550km on it - well not over a new one anyway. I don't think dirty 20 year old Hi-lux utes are really what is being talked about here :)
> Of course, the turbo kit I installed costed. The thing is 17 years > old and runs/looks like new, so I just don't care. A petrol sh.tter > does not tend to do that. Mind you, I've maintained it properly. Um, so you're now saying that because it's a diesel it's aged better?
Really?
> Build your own diesel, and you win. Petrol customers are the losers. > LPG is a long way ahead of petrol. LPG is a long way ahead of anything else currently available.
-- Regards, Noddy.
Jeßus - 25 Feb 2008 03:14 GMT > Diesel certainly *isn't* the cheapest way to go as far as fuel choices are > concerned these days. That honour belongs to lpg, and there's nothing I can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > On a purely economical scale, diesel is a pretty unnatractive alternative at > the moment. Unless one chooses to make their own biodiesel. But few would do that, of course.
Noddy - 25 Feb 2008 04:22 GMT > Unless one chooses to make their own biodiesel. But few would do that, of > course. I reckon local councils might have something to say about garage stills pumping out millions of litres of home made flammable liquids, not to mention the number of rejected insurance claims for burnt down houses going through the roof :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
Blue Heeler - 25 Feb 2008 08:06 GMT > I reckon local councils might have something to say about garage > stills pumping out millions of litres of home made flammable liquids, > not to mention the number of rejected insurance claims for burnt down > houses going through the roof :) Actually, biodiesel is no more "flammable" than peanut oil or olive oil.
My objection to home made biodiesel is in the following terms (and yes I have made and used biodiesel).
It involves the production and use of Sodium methydroxide - a particularly nasty and dangerous poison.
It involves the use of methanol or "dry gas", a fairly dangerous flammable liquid, and unless the biodiesel "still" is made correctly, each batch of biodiesel results in a fairly large amount of it going to waste (about 20lt of methanol to 250lt of biodiesel). In order to recover the methanol the reacted biodielse must be heated and the methanol vapour captured and distilled - an inherently dangerous process. Wasting th emethanol is a waste of resources.
The production of biodiesel leaves a byproduct that is noxious and difficult to dispose of.
The amount of energy that needs to be put into agitating the biodiesel "mix" or in heating it if you are south of the tropic of capricorn and its winter is such that production of 200lt of biodiesel uses more energy than production of 200ly of fossil diesel.
It seems to me that most people who sustain the biodiesel thing are either bucks down, hooked on being "different" or have not thought through the real costs to the planet of making their own fuel.
A far, far better alternative is to do the modifications to allow your diesel to run on pure vegetable oil - see www.plantdrive.com
--
the_dawggie - 25 Feb 2008 08:26 GMT > It involves the production and use of Sodium methydroxide - a > particularly nasty and dangerous poison. Yes, you take care with that part.
> It involves the use of methanol or "dry gas", a fairly dangerous > flammable liquid, and unless the biodiesel "still" is made correctly, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > methanol vapour captured and distilled - an inherently dangerous > process. Wasting th emethanol is a waste of resources. Agreed.
> The production of biodiesel leaves a byproduct that is noxious and > difficult to dispose of. Nope.
> The amount of energy that needs to be put into agitating the biodiesel > "mix" or in heating it if you are south of the tropic of capricorn and > its winter is such that production of 200lt of biodiesel uses more > energy than production of 200ly of fossil diesel. There are various ways to do it. The problem is getting the water out of it. Tradition says boil it. I've got a new gadget that spins the water out of it. Not tried it yet.
> It seems to me that most people who sustain the biodiesel thing are > either bucks down, hooked on being "different" or have not thought > through the real costs to the planet of making their own fuel. Not at all true.
> A far, far better alternative is to do the modifications to allow your > diesel to run on pure vegetable oil - seewww.plantdrive.com Yes, I can do this any day of the week and have done. Still got to boil the oil (or otherwise remove moisture) and filter it.
It's way down on energy content than petrodiesel and way way down on energy content than properly made biodiesel.
> -- Paul Saccani - 26 Feb 2008 12:27 GMT >A far, far better alternative is to do the modifications to allow your >diesel to run on pure vegetable oil - see www.plantdrive.com The poms reckon 5 to 10% white spirits to neat vegetable oil does the trick, without bothering with a transesterfication reaction. I haven't tried it myself. But yeah, changing the car to use it neat makes more sense.
 Signature Cheers Paul Saccani Perth, Western Australia.
Jeßus - 27 Feb 2008 06:26 GMT >> I reckon local councils might have something to say about garage >> stills pumping out millions of litres of home made flammable liquids, [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > either bucks down, hooked on being "different" or have not thought > through the real costs to the planet of making their own fuel. A lot of those problems you have outline are news to me.
> A far, far better alternative is to do the modifications to allow your > diesel to run on pure vegetable oil - see www.plantdrive.com Yes, also good (from what I know about it).
I don't have a diesel vehicle, but I'll be in a situation where I could give biodiesel manufacture a go without any dramas from neighbors or the authorities... it might be a project I'll take up at some stage, especially if petrol prices rise faster/higher than I think they will.
the_dawggie - 28 Feb 2008 00:03 GMT > >> I reckon local councils might have something to say about garage > >> stills pumping out millions of litres of home made flammable liquids, [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > authorities... it might be a project I'll take up at some stage, > especially if petrol prices rise faster/higher than I think they will. It's really not a problem. I think council would not care. The next door neighbours with dual fuel LPG/petrol vehicle come and take a peek and lend a hand with carrying stuff :-)
You have to be carefull as sodium methoxide ain't nice, neither is some of the used cooking oil you get.
I have not got back to it as it is all set up at a property I don't live at.
Better stuff than bought diesel. Higher power output, and less polution.
John_H - 26 Feb 2008 01:49 GMT >I reckon local councils might have something to say about garage stills >pumping out millions of litres of home made flammable liquids, not to >mention the number of rejected insurance claims for burnt down houses going >through the roof :) In Q, the Fire & Rescue Authority takes a very dim view of backyard biodiesel manufacturing facilities (and any other process that uses chemicals deemed to be dangerous). There have been recent moves to ban it but I don't recall whether it's at local (council) or state government level. I think maybe the latter.
 Signature John H
veritas - 26 Feb 2008 02:38 GMT >> I reckon local councils might have something to say about garage stills >> pumping out millions of litres of home made flammable liquids, not to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ban it but I don't recall whether it's at local (council) or state > government level. I think maybe the latter. There are definite limits regarding how and what quantities of flammable goods that can be stored in domestic (and other) premises. Have a look at the 'Dangerous Goods Act' of the various jurisdictions - it may be there. I'm sure that Local Gov. will have by-laws also.
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pit - 26 Feb 2008 03:02 GMT > >> I reckon local councils might have something to say about garage stills > >> pumping out millions of litres of home made flammable liquids, not to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com Sincere thanks for most of the responses to this. Much appreciated.
Now if only the state would allow me to grow Jatropha :) Which also has some toxicity when turning it to biodiesel. However, no methanol required. Just experimenting with combination of normal summer blend diesel, cooking oil (after being centrifuged) and filtered , coconut oil, and some jatropha oil mate sent over 2 x 44's
first run by the folks down in Perth report no problems except a bit of a smell. Power output actually went up a bit they said .TINY BIT :) may have been the density altitude as the comparison dyno figures were done on a very hot day at Geraldton
Will keep you advised and organise a site to post a screen shot of the excell figures when they arrive from down south. again Thanks Much appreciated.
Toby Ponsenby - 26 Feb 2008 08:31 GMT >>I reckon local councils might have something to say about garage stills >>pumping out millions of litres of home made flammable liquids, not to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it but I don't recall whether it's at local (council) or state > government level. I think maybe the latter. hmmm - chemicals deemed to be dangerous? How about chemicals in suitable quantities to be deemed to be specifically used in the manufacture of material to be used <gasp> free of fucken tax.
There's that's better.
 Signature Toby
Jeßus - 27 Feb 2008 06:29 GMT >> Unless one chooses to make their own biodiesel. But few would do that, of >> course. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mention the number of rejected insurance claims for burnt down houses going > through the roof :) Yep. But I did say few would do that, of course.
I haven't ruled out giving it a shot in the future, mind you. If I do, it'll be done properly.
the_dawggie - 25 Feb 2008 00:48 GMT > Lots of theories . > So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) > Cheers P Diesel has a much higher energy content per volume than petrol.
Most {turbo} diesel engines know how to use it.
Us diesel owners give FuelCo the shites because we don't need to buy enough of it. That said, I expect the trucking companies probably subsidise it - and provide it.
As I always say petrol should be deprecated and taxed to death.
Noddy - 25 Feb 2008 04:11 GMT "the_dawggie" <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:95cf2d05-3309-431e-ad12-
> Us diesel owners give FuelCo the shites because we don't > need to buy enough of it. That said, I expect the trucking > companies probably subsidise it - and provide it. Transport companies get a diesel rebate.
> As I always say petrol should be deprecated and taxed to > death. Thankfully you won't ever be in a position to make that call and it have any effect.
-- Regards, Noddy.
Daryl Walford - 25 Feb 2008 09:21 GMT > "the_dawggie" <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:95cf2d05-3309-431e-ad12- [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Transport companies get a diesel rebate. The more they use the less they pay, my former boss told me he gets one cent per litre discount because he uses more than a million litres per year, he also gets something like 2 cpl discount because he pays his fuel bill in full each week plus he has negotiated further discounts with certain servos that his trucks use regularly so he pays approx 5 cpl below bowser price which is a $50,000 pa saving. Transport companies also pass on fuel costs to their customers as a fuel surcharge, the customer I was working for is paying a 9% surcharge.
Daryl
John_H - 26 Feb 2008 00:30 GMT >The more they use the less they pay, my former boss told me he gets one >cent per litre discount because he uses more than a million litres per >year, he also gets something like 2 cpl discount because he pays his >fuel bill in full each week They were ripping him off if fuel cost more than 80¢ at the time. :)
Mine's less 2.5% of the negotiated total price on all bulk fuel paid for within 7 days of delivery (and it's delivered on site by tanker at no extra cost). It's een that way for years.
The ATO provides an additional rebate of up to 38.143¢ per litre, depending on the end use (half that for trucks over 20 tonne GVM running on road).
They've recently applied a slight imposition in that you now have to wait up to 3 months to get it back if the business income is less than $1M p.a. (it's part of the BAS)... previously payable on each 2000 litre purchased (if you chose to claim it that way).
Small time users need not apply (presumably they're also the ones who now pay for the road damage done by trucks). :)
All of the foregoing now applies to petrol as well as diesel (since July 2007 IIRC).
The Queensland Government also pays me an additional 8.3¢ per litre for estimated on road fuel usage (12 months in advance -- reconciled at the end of the financial year).
Now you know why I get to spend so much time in the office! :)
 Signature John H
JD - 25 Feb 2008 02:29 GMT > Lots of theories . > So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) > Cheers P 1. Diesel is more expensive than petrol because:-
A larger proportion probably is imported because of the characteristics of local crude and condensate.
The increased relative demand is out of kilter with the installed processing capacity of local refineries.
Increased standards (low sulphur) for diesel have substantially increased production costs, probably to higher than those for petrol.
Lower sales than petrol encourage higher retail margins - the bulk of diesel sold is sold at contracted prices to major users, leaving quite a small volume subject to retail market forces.
Unlike most European countries, diesel is not given preferential tax treatment - in fact I have an idea it pays more tax.
2. See the situation in Europe - in countries where it is significantly cheaper than petrol, diesel car sales are up to 50% of new car sales. There is no reason to suspect that Australians would be any different in the same situation.
JD
John_H - 25 Feb 2008 03:18 GMT >1. Diesel is more expensive than petrol because:- > >A larger proportion probably is imported because of the characteristics of >local crude and condensate. Presumably then the US also imports a large proportion of theirs, because their pre-tax price is almost exactly the same as ours.... http://www.etrucker.com/apps/promiles/fuelprices.asp
The typical ex-tax price of US$3.30 per US gallon (as of 24/02/08) works out at US$0.87 per litre (3.785 litre / us gallon) = A$0.94 (on the current exchange rate of 0.9236)
This is equivalent to a bowser price of A$1.45 per litre (at an excise rate of 38.142 ¢ per litre and 10% GST)
>The increased relative demand is out of kilter with the installed processing >capacity of local refineries. See above.
>Increased standards (low sulphur) for diesel have substantially increased >production costs, probably to higher than those for petrol. See above
>Lower sales than petrol encourage higher retail margins - the bulk of diesel >sold is sold at contracted prices to major users, leaving quite a small >volume subject to retail market forces. See above. Note also that the US prices are the "trucker" rates.
>Unlike most European countries, diesel is not given preferential tax >treatment - in fact I have an idea it pays more tax. Both have exactly the same tax in Oz (38.142¢ per litre plus GST).
>2. See the situation in Europe - in countries where it is significantly >cheaper than petrol, diesel car sales are up to 50% of new car sales. There >is no reason to suspect that Australians would be any different in the same >situation. Think you'll also find that the pre-tax price in Europe is as near as damn it to ours (and the US).
So much for your conspiracy theories. :)
 Signature John H
GrassyNoel - 25 Feb 2008 03:19 GMT > Unlike most European countries, diesel is not given preferential tax > treatment - in fact I have an idea it pays more tax. Diesel Fuel Rebate, anyone?
Daryl Walford - 25 Feb 2008 09:14 GMT >> Unlike most European countries, diesel is not given preferential tax >> treatment - in fact I have an idea it pays more tax. > > Diesel Fuel Rebate, anyone? Bingo:-)
Daryl
RogerM - 25 Feb 2008 04:08 GMT > Lots of theories . > So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) > Cheers P Supply and demand............just look what's happened to LPG.
The Ozone bashing is a way out for the jerks in here to express their small brains as they haven't got the balls to stand up to a few whackos in here.
Roger
Daryl Walford - 25 Feb 2008 09:09 GMT > Lots of theories . > So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus > Cars. > 1 The subject heading is the first part of the question. Govt policy, the price of diesel went up after the GST was introduced and heavy vehicle users were given a rebate, the price went up by about the same amount as the rebate almost overnight.
> 2 If Diesel was cheaper. given that new technology has made them more > attractive (albeit more expensive) > would buyers migrate to diesels and why. IMO it would depend a lot on how much of a price premium was put on a diesel, if you could easily recover the price difference because of lower running costs in a short period like 2-3 yrs then they would be more financially viable so people would be more likely to buy one.
> Serious question as getting fed up with all this ozone bashing. Me too.
Come
> to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) Good idea.
Daryl
OzOne - 25 Feb 2008 09:23 GMT >> Serious question as getting fed up with all this ozone bashing. > >Me too. Me too but while they bash I'll show them as fools.
> Come >> to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) > >Good idea. Yeah, I used to do the same.
Then Noodelle got his nose out of joint when I showed that phosphoric acid will not protect steel but will chemically react with said steel to produce a protectant.
I was accused of shifting goalpost where what I was doing was clearing up the facts.
He then lied and snuck around inventing lines for me and rallying the clowns while his language slipped further into the gutter..
Maybe we'll get back to cars....one day.
>Daryl OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Daryl Walford - 25 Feb 2008 10:07 GMT > Maybe we'll get back to cars....one day. I know it may not seem fair to you but the old saying "it takes 2 to tango" comes to mind, you cop a lot of sh.t but you give almost as much as you get so may I suggest you stop giving sh.t and you may stop receiving it.
Daryl
RogerM - 26 Feb 2008 00:38 GMT >> Maybe we'll get back to cars....one day. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Daryl That's fair enough too, but I note you are only telling Oz. Why not apply it to Noddy and his band of whackos as well?
Roger
Noddy - 26 Feb 2008 00:55 GMT > That's fair enough too, but I note you are only telling Oz. Why not apply > it to Noddy and his band of whackos as well? Why don't you just go f.ck yourself "Roger"?
No one asked you to be moderator of the group and lecture everyone about "fairness" and "moral values". If you don't like what goes on around here then feel free to leave any time.
-- Regards, Noddy.
Daryl Walford - 26 Feb 2008 10:57 GMT >> That's fair enough too, but I note you are only telling Oz. Why not apply >> it to Noddy and his band of whackos as well? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "fairness" and "moral values". If you don't like what goes on around here > then feel free to leave any time. I don't know why he seems to think you are the leader of the anti Oz brigade because I don't think thats the case, compared to some others you are actually nice the him:-)
Daryl
Noddy - 26 Feb 2008 11:15 GMT > I don't know why he seems to think you are the leader of the anti Oz > brigade because I don't think thats the case, compared to some others you > are actually nice the him:-) f.cked if I know.
Because I have an opinion that I don't mind voicing I'm an arsehole, and if others dare to agree on occasions they're suddenly "arse-lickers". Oddly enough, Roger/DAvid seems to want to go in to bat for Oz every f.cking time the twerp opens his gob, yet he doesn't seem to qualify on that score.
Strange, ain't it?
-- Regards, Noddy.
Daryl Walford - 27 Feb 2008 07:59 GMT >> I don't know why he seems to think you are the leader of the anti Oz >> brigade because I don't think thats the case, compared to some others you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Strange, ain't it? Very.
Daryl
RogerM - 26 Feb 2008 00:37 GMT >>> Serious question as getting fed up with all this ozone bashing. >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Maybe we'll get back to cars....one day. That describes him perfectly.
Roger
Noddy - 26 Feb 2008 00:53 GMT >> Then Noodelle got his nose out of joint when I showed that phosphoric >> acid will not protect steel but will chemically react with said steel >> to produce a protectant. Is it just me, or can anyone else see the ridiculousness of this statement
:) -- Regards, Noddy.
veritas - 26 Feb 2008 02:12 GMT >>> Then Noodelle got his nose out of joint when I showed that phosphoric >>> acid will not protect steel but will chemically react with said steel >>> to produce a protectant. > > Is it just me, or can anyone else see the ridiculousness of this statement > :) I understand it has to actually have rust to react with in the first instance.
I know the bloody stuff acts up with my Duodenitis when I drink it.
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Noddy - 26 Feb 2008 11:23 GMT > I understand it has to actually have rust to react with in the first > instance. No, it doesn't.
It reacts with steel, aluminium and stainless to much the same degree, but at different speeds depending on the material (fast on steel, slow on Ally, and somewhere in between those two for stainless depending on the grade). It works quite quickly on rust, but rust doesn't have to be present for a reaction to take place.
As well as being the active ingredient in most "off the shelf" rust converters and prevention compounds, it's also used as a pickling agent by gunsmiths on fresh new machined steel.
-- Regards, Noddy.
OzOne - 26 Feb 2008 22:02 GMT >It reacts with steel, aluminium and stainless to much the same degree, Except that it's a totally different chemical reaction!
We've been here before....and its been shown that it is impossible to educate you.
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
OzOne - 26 Feb 2008 21:58 GMT >>> Then Noodelle got his nose out of joint when I showed that phosphoric >>> acid will not protect steel but will chemically react with said steel >>> to produce a protectant. > >Is it just me, or can anyone else see the ridiculousness of this statement >:) Hopefully just you...The other might actually understand it!
Let me explain. Phosphoric needs to be kept in plastic or high quality stainless steel containers because it will rot out anything else including steel.
It will NOT protect the steel container if in constant contact however IF you filled a steel container and then poured out the phosphoric, and removed all the dregs with a light rinsing, the inside of said container will have a rust resistant coating.
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
veritas - 26 Feb 2008 01:52 GMT > Lots of theories . > So throw this open question to the collective brains trust of Aus [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to Aus cars to read about Aus cars :) > Cheers P I was paying $0.17 per GALLON in the late 70's (agricultural use). Sometimes I'd go through a couple of hundred 44's in a couple of mornings work with a pint of 245T mixed with 2.5 gallons of diesel per acre and that would leave the spray boom in about 7 seconds when the money-handle was open. Places like Quilpie, Taroom, Emerald, Dingo and other brigalow areas if I recall.
Anyhow, it was bloody cheap. One farmer told me it cost him just under $8 to feed his Southern Cross single cylinder generator for the year (1 x 44 gallon drum). It was 48 volt - he only run it for a while at night to charge the batteries and run his lights and TV.
Gone are those days and prices :(
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John_H - 26 Feb 2008 03:25 GMT >I was paying $0.17 per GALLON in the late 70's (agricultural use). Also without the need to prove it was for agricultural use.
In those days any diesel fuel delivered in bulk to a farm (or any other eligable user) didn't attract excise. Where it went after that no one ever bothered to check.
The requirement to document usage (log books, etc) was introduced by Hawke Government and has been tightened considerably since then (as well as being infinitely more complicated).
Apparently a large number of agricultural users (read dumb cockies) don't even bother to claim the rebate... to the government's advantage.
 Signature John H
veritas - 26 Feb 2008 03:31 GMT >> I was paying $0.17 per GALLON in the late 70's (agricultural use). > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > don't even bother to claim the rebate... to the government's > advantage. Between the time that I related to, and the time you related to - 5 cylinder Mercs were popular ;-)
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John_H - 26 Feb 2008 04:54 GMT >>> I was paying $0.17 per GALLON in the late 70's (agricultural use). >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Between the time that I related to, and the time you related to - 5 >cylinder Mercs were popular ;-) With all due deference to government ineptitude... there wasn't much else you could put it in back in those days. And even fewer users who'd have wanted to (drive a 5 cylinder Merc that is). :)
 Signature John H
GrassyNoel - 26 Feb 2008 06:03 GMT > With all due deference to government ineptitude... there wasn't much > else you could put it in back in those days. And even fewer users > who'd have wanted to (drive a 5 cylinder Merc that is). :) Why didn't Ford whack a diesel into the Fairlane? Woulda been quids in.
pit - 26 Feb 2008 07:18 GMT > > With all due deference to government ineptitude... there wasn't much > > else you could put it in back in those days. And even fewer users > > who'd have wanted to (drive a 5 cylinder Merc that is). :) > > Why didn't Ford whack a diesel into the Fairlane? Woulda been quids > in. Indeed .
One bloke it is said after w/o his defender did that. But I never saw it Appeared yonks ago early 90.s on a Landy pommy BBS (remember when he had to stick the modems to the phone) Fun on an old party line .
GrassyNoel - 26 Feb 2008 23:44 GMT > > Why didn't Ford whack a diesel into the Fairlane? Woulda been quids > > in. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > One bloke it is said after w/o his defender did that. But I never saw > it I have seen an '80s era Fairlane (ZK?) with Diesel badges on it, but I think they were just trying to invent an excuse for all the smoke.
Daryl Walford - 27 Feb 2008 08:14 GMT >>> Why didn't Ford whack a diesel into the Fairlane? Woulda been quids >>> in. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have seen an '80s era Fairlane (ZK?) with Diesel badges on it, but I > think they were just trying to invent an excuse for all the smoke. I've driven an auto XC Falcon ute fitted with a Perkins/Mazda 6.248 diesel (6Cyl 248 cu in.). It was fitted by a Ford Tractor Dealer in Euroa Vic who was well know for doing conversions. It performed better than expected and didn't seem down on power unless you really pushed it.
Daryl
atec77 - 27 Feb 2008 09:26 GMT >>>> Why didn't Ford whack a diesel into the Fairlane? Woulda been quids >>>> in. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Daryl One of the 'lations had a stinky f100 years ago powered by a perkins , after finishing a contract in Darwin he set off to home ( sydney) took almost 4 days at 90k which was all it would do , the dog was sick of sleeping on the floor but it used bugga all fuel :)
Daryl Walford - 27 Feb 2008 11:10 GMT >>>>> Why didn't Ford whack a diesel into the Fairlane? Woulda been quids >>>>> in. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > almost 4 days at 90k which was all it would do , the dog was sick of > sleeping on the floor but it used bugga all fuel :) Company I did my apprenticeship with was a Perkins dealer and we put the things into almost anything. Mostly trucks but I remember a 6.354 into a Landrover and a Landcruiser, it was along time ago but I remember something about changing gearing maybe fitting an overdrive to give them some top speed. The most strange conversion I can remember was a 4.108 4cyl diesel into a Monaro LE.
Daryl
GrassyNoel - 27 Feb 2008 11:24 GMT > It performed better than expected and didn't seem down on power unless > you really pushed it. Auto XC sixes are so gutless it'd be hard to tell if it was down on power :)
Noddy - 26 Feb 2008 11:16 GMT "GrassyNoel" <geracen@webace.com.au> wrote in message news:1e905188-aab4-44b6-95c3-
> Why didn't Ford whack a diesel into the Fairlane? Woulda been quids in. I really don't think people who were buying the Fairlane were terribly concerned about what engine was under the bonnet.
-- Regards, Noddy.
Toby Ponsenby - 26 Feb 2008 11:29 GMT > "GrassyNoel" <geracen@webace.com.au> wrote in message > news:1e905188-aab4-44b6-95c3- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I really don't think people who were buying the Fairlane were terribly > concerned about what engine was under the bonnet. Trust me, if Ford has stuck a shaking rattling 4 cylinder stinker in there they'd have heard the screams all the way back to HQ:-)
 Signature Toby
Noddy - 26 Feb 2008 12:07 GMT > Trust me, if Ford has stuck a shaking rattling 4 cylinder stinker in > there they'd have heard the screams all the way back to HQ:-) Point taken :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
Toby Ponsenby - 26 Feb 2008 12:32 GMT >> Trust me, if Ford has stuck a shaking rattling 4 cylinder stinker in >> there they'd have heard the screams all the way back to HQ:-) > > Point taken :) Cue --- the_dawggie
right about now..
 Signature Toby
Noddy - 26 Feb 2008 12:39 GMT > Cue --- > the_dawggie > > right about now.. Please no.....
If I have to hear about his HiLux ute one more time I think I'll hurl my dinner :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
GrassyNoel - 26 Feb 2008 23:44 GMT > "GrassyNoel" <gera...@webace.com.au> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I really don't think people who were buying the Fairlane were terribly > concerned about what engine was under the bonnet. Not even with tax-free fuel?
John_H - 26 Feb 2008 23:56 GMT >> "GrassyNoel" <gera...@webace.com.au> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Not even with tax-free fuel? The federal tax wasn't particularly high at that time.
The present excise regime was intoduced by the Fraser Government (early eighties IIRC) and has since been modified by the Howard Government (excise indexation abolished following the introduction of GST).
State tax (which is now part of excise, as a result of a High Court ruling) has never been subject to rebate... other than Queensland (and parts of NSW).
 Signature John H
Daryl Walford - 27 Feb 2008 08:05 GMT > "GrassyNoel" <geracen@webace.com.au> wrote in message > news:1e905188-aab4-44b6-95c3- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I really don't think people who were buying the Fairlane were terribly > concerned about what engine was under the bonnet. Father of one of my neighbours was a huge Fairlane fan, he had a standing order with his local dealer for new Fairlane every time a new model was released, the only thing he insisted on was it had to have the biggest V8 available. He was shattered when Ford dropped the V8 back in the 80's and AFAIK he hasn't bought another Ford since, last time I heard he was driving a 7 series BMW.
Daryl
Jason James - 27 Feb 2008 18:17 GMT > > "GrassyNoel" <geracen@webace.com.au> wrote in message > > news:1e905188-aab4-44b6-95c3- [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > hasn't bought another Ford since, last time I heard he was driving a 7 > series BMW. It was a depressing time,..yet GMH kept the old 308 as an option in their Commode range.
Jason
Noddy - 27 Feb 2008 23:36 GMT > It was a depressing time,..yet GMH kept the old 308 as an option in their > Commode range. I would have rather had the crossflow 6. In fact, I *did* :)
-- Regards, Noddy.
Jason James - 28 Feb 2008 21:06 GMT > > It was a depressing time,..yet GMH kept the old 308 as an option in their > > Commode range. > > I would have rather had the crossflow 6. In fact, I *did* :) Aye,..the output of the "308" was pathetic. The only version of the VK Commodore worth a squirt of goat's piss however, was the V8 model. God only knows why GMH had the temerity to foist the 6 cyl black-motor on an unwary public.
Jason
Albm&ctd - 29 Feb 2008 02:36 GMT > > > It was a depressing time,..yet GMH kept the old 308 as an option in > their [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jason GOD only knows why, but you're the foist poison to use temerity on an unwary reader. Al
 Signature Like Noddy, as I travel through life, it's not the personal attacks I'm concerned about, it's being recognised wearing lippy and a dress. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html
Jason James - 29 Feb 2008 16:27 GMT > > > > It was a depressing time,..yet GMH kept the old 308 as an option in > > their [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > GOD only knows why, but you're the foist poison to use temerity on an > unwary reader. Ssshh. Don't want to have to look it up !
Jason
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