> GM naturally hit the roof and claimed it was all bullshit, but as is the
> case in such incidences that was accepted with about as much faith as Adolph
> Eichmann saying he really loved Jews and was actually "helping them".
way to burst my bubble.

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>> I suspect thats partly why Ford got punished in the Explorer case, they
>> gained a bad reputation so the jury assumed they were guilty.
>
> The jumping out of park thing was a "payback" as well I think, as that
> came not all that long after the Pinto fiasco and it was still fresh in
> everyone's mind.
Jumping out of park was common to many column shift cars of the era and not
just Ford. IIRC both GM and Chrysler had the same issue.
As for exploding Pintos, I regularly drove a 71 model (supposedly the worst
for exploding). Provided no-one ran up the a.s of your car at a fair speed
they were rather safe. This main issue was that the tank hit the diff and
ruptered, with the tank then going down to grind along the road. Yes, not an
optimal design but there were cars far less safe than that.
> On the other hand, some manufacturers are presumed guilty no matter how
> innocent they are.
It's the old argument about them being a big, penny pinching company, more
interested in profits than lives. The old "but they can afford it".
Sure, they do something wrong and they should pay for it but lets not make
it silly numbers just because they can pay for it.
> About 10 years ago some "current affairs" type show in the US thought it
> would be a good idea to "invent" a headline, and came up with the story
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> However, try as they might they couldn't get one to split it's tank and
> burst into flames.
True, but there was a few real life cases of such crashes causing fires and
killing people. Of course, just about any car can be used to kill people if
misused appropriately. Designers can't be held responsible for every
eventuality no matter how rare/extreme.
> So, not wanting to waste their time & money they set about making one
> ignite on purpose. They deliberately modified the fuel tank by placing a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> And the story went to air.
Never heard of this but if true they should have been taken to court.
> GM naturally hit the roof and claimed it was all bullshit, but as is the
> case in such incidences that was accepted with about as much faith as
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> cigarette lighter). Their sales were affected by the bad publicity and
> never really climbed back to the pre story levels.
Hmmm, not dis-similar to the Pinto. If you ever see the crash test footage
of the Pinto exploding you might be surprised to know that is the *ONLY*
footage of such a collision and resulting fire. Sure, some did catch on fire
in similar on-road collisions but it was not as likely as Ralph Nader and
his bunch made out.
Noddy - 12 Mar 2008 23:01 GMT
> Jumping out of park was common to many column shift cars of the era and
> not just Ford. IIRC both GM and Chrysler had the same issue.
Only if you didn't put them into park properly in the first place.
> As for exploding Pintos, I regularly drove a 71 model (supposedly the
> worst for exploding). Provided no-one ran up the a.s of your car at a fair
> speed they were rather safe. This main issue was that the tank hit the
> diff and ruptered, with the tank then going down to grind along the road.
> Yes, not an optimal design but there were cars far less safe than that.
Not ever having crash tested a *single* Pinto before releasing it onto the
market was a *huge* blunder as far as Ford was concerned, or to be more
precise, Lee Iacocca's, as it was his baby. Then again, there's every
possibility that had they crash tested them and got an accurate picture of
just how bad they were they *still* would have released it anyway.
Such was Iacocca's want.
> It's the old argument about them being a big, penny pinching company, more
> interested in profits than lives. The old "but they can afford it".
>
> Sure, they do something wrong and they should pay for it but lets not make
> it silly numbers just because they can pay for it.
I agree, but then the 11 bucks per car fix to address the fire issues
associated with Fords in general wasn't a huge expense that could have
*easily* been either absorbed at some point in the chain or passed on to the
consumer without it being a big deal.
> True, but there was a few real life cases of such crashes causing fires
> and killing people. Of course, just about any car can be used to kill
> people if misused appropriately. Designers can't be held responsible for
> every eventuality no matter how rare/extreme.
Absolutely.
> Never heard of this but if true they should have been taken to court.
They were.
> Hmmm, not dis-similar to the Pinto.
Not dis-similar? How do you figure that?
One was a case about a cheap & nasty little car that killed a lot of people
while the other was a complete fabrication by some headline grabbing local
TV show.
> If you ever see the crash test footage of the Pinto exploding you might be
> surprised to know that is the *ONLY* footage of such a collision and
> resulting fire.
If you ever see crash test footage of a Pinto *period* it'll be extremely
rare, and carried out by someone other than Ford in trying to assess the
vehicles problems after they became known as Ford never crash tested a
*single* car prior to it's release.
> Sure, some did catch on fire in similar on-road collisions but it was not
> as likely as Ralph Nader and his bunch made out.
It was *incredibly* likely. 59 people were burned to death (and around
double that number hideously burned) in Pinto's in collisions where they
might have otherwise walked away unscathed in other cars, thanks largely to
the propensity of it's petrol tank being ruptured on suspension bolts, and
the tank filler neck having a habit of being ripped off the side of the
tank. What made it worse was that the Pinto also had a habit of being
unreliable, with the cars stalling and coming to an unexpected stop which
probably explains the rather high proportion of rear end hits they suffered.
Those people were all killed and injured in the fist 18 months of the car's
release *before* there was an inquiry and it's issues addressed by Ford. If
you think that's not very likely then I'd suggest you need to look at things
again.
The Pinto was one of the greatest lemons ever made, and Ford's handling of
the whole affair was appalling to say the least.
--
Regards,
Noddy.