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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / March 2008

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At least in the USA....

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OzOne - 12 Mar 2008 02:13 GMT
.......you can get decent compensation when your Ford POS exhibits its
failings.

Paralysed woman awarded $89 million
Wednesday Mar 12 10:00 AEDT
AP - A California appeals court says a woman who was paralysed after
her Ford Explorer rolled over is entitled to $US82.6 million ($A89.2
million) in damages from the automaker.

The 4th District Court of Appeal was asked by the US Supreme Court to
review the case after Ford Motor Co appealed the award, arguing that
it was being punished even though the design of the vehicle met
federal safety standards.

Benetta Buell-Wilson was driving on an interstate east of San Diego in
January 2002 when she swerved to avoid a metal object and lost control
of her 1997 Explorer, which rolled four times. The mother of two was
paralysed from the waist down when the roof collapsed on her neck,
severing her spine.

A jury initially awarded Buell-Wilson $US369 million ($A400 million),
including $US246 million ($A266 million) in punitive damages but
courts twice cut the size of the award.




The $US82.6 million ($A89 million) approved by the appeals court on
Monday includes punitive damages of $US55 million ($A59 million).

The Supreme Court wanted the appeals court to determine if its ruling
was in line with an earlier Supreme Court decision overturning a
$US79.5 million ($A86 million) punitive damages award in a tobacco
case.

©AAP 2008

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Feral Al - 12 Mar 2008 02:26 GMT
> .......you can get decent compensation when your Ford POS exhibits its
> failings.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> ©AAP 2008

That's apauling.

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Feral Al    ( @..@)
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Trevor Wilson - 12 Mar 2008 02:46 GMT
> .......you can get decent compensation when your Ford POS exhibits its
> failings.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> $US79.5 million ($A86 million) punitive damages award in a tobacco
> case.

**Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a little
more for each car they buy real soon now.

The ridiculous damages awards against Dow Corning put them out of business.
Such things may put other companies out of business, even though they are
not at fault.

Trevor Wilson
OzOne - 12 Mar 2008 03:25 GMT
>**Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
>court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a little
>more for each car they buy real soon now.

Mistake was to buy a Ford with dreadful dynamics and a roof that
collapsed.

>The ridiculous damages awards against Dow Corning put them out of business.

Dow Corning is still doing quite well after they settled the case
The decision to continue production of implants despite the evidence
and successfull million dollar award against them in the early 80's
which then led to many more womeen's lives being destroyed has been
put behind them.....well almost, they have a multi billion dollar fund
set aside to pay future claims.

>Such things may put other companies out of business, even though they are
>not at fault.

If they are not at fault...they don't lose the cases!

>Trevor Wilson

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Trevor Wilson - 12 Mar 2008 04:05 GMT
>>**Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
>>court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Mistake was to buy a Ford with dreadful dynamics and a roof that
> collapsed.

**No. The silly bitch did something REALLY dumb to roll her car. Cars don't
rollover, unless they hit something like a gutter, or a pothole, or go off
the road.

>>The ridiculous damages awards against Dow Corning put them out of
>>business.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> If they are not at fault...they don't lose the cases!

**Dow got sued for millions of Dollars, even though it was proven their
implants were not at fault. The stupid jury felt sorry for the woman and
awarded her a heap of dough. The US system is seriously flawed. As is ours.
Unqualified juries have no place in such trials.

Trevor Wilson
OzOne - 12 Mar 2008 04:20 GMT
>>>**Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
>>>court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>rollover, unless they hit something like a gutter, or a pothole, or go off
>the road.

Rubbish!

>>>The ridiculous damages awards against Dow Corning put them out of
>>>business.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>awarded her a heap of dough. The US system is seriously flawed. As is ours.
>Unqualified juries have no place in such trials.

Nope...You have it all wrong It was never proven taht their implants
were not at fault.
The second case was a class action.

>Trevor Wilson

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Trevor Wilson - 12 Mar 2008 04:32 GMT
>>>>**Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
>>>>court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Nope...You have it all wrong It was never proven taht their implants
> were not at fault.

**Exactly!

> The second case was a class action.

**Based on the outcome of the first.

Trevor Wilson
OzOne - 12 Mar 2008 05:16 GMT
>> Nope...You have it all wrong It was never proven taht their implants
>> were not at fault.
>
>**Exactly!

Yes, exactly...Dow were happy to settle rather than have their
negligence proven.

>> The second case was a class action.
>
>**Based on the outcome of the first.

Nope again,
based upon the evidence presented, including the fact that Dow execs
recognised that their implants were a problem yet made the decision to
continue producing them.

>Trevor Wilson

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Trevor Wilson - 12 Mar 2008 05:39 GMT
>>> Nope...You have it all wrong It was never proven taht their implants
>>> were not at fault.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Yes, exactly...Dow were happy to settle rather than have their
> negligence proven.

**Nope. Dow were found by the court to have manufactured implants which
injured women. The implants never did, actually, injure women, however. The
fault lay with the stupid jurors.

>>> The second case was a class action.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> recognised that their implants were a problem yet made the decision to
> continue producing them.

**Wrong. The implants were never proven to cause problems. The stupid jury
thought otherwise.

Trevor Wilson
OzOne - 12 Mar 2008 13:09 GMT
>>>> Nope...You have it all wrong It was never proven taht their implants
>>>> were not at fault.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>injured women. The implants never did, actually, injure women, however. The
>fault lay with the stupid jurors.

So where exactly did the silicone that was migrating through their
bodies come from?

>>>> The second case was a class action.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>**Wrong. The implants were never proven to cause problems. The stupid jury
>thought otherwise.

The "stupid jury" saw women with a whole variety of problems mostly
caused by silicone in their bodies....some time before their problems,
their enhanced breasts had started to reduce.....

>Trevor Wilson

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Trevor Wilson - 13 Mar 2008 00:00 GMT
>>>>> Nope...You have it all wrong It was never proven taht their implants
>>>>> were not at fault.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> So where exactly did the silicone that was migrating through their
> bodies come from?

**From broken plastic capsules. The silicon was not responsible for the
complainant's health problems. It was shown to the jury that women with
broken breast implants were not suffering any more diseases than the general
population. The jury ignored this fact and awarded against Dow anyway.

>>>>> The second case was a class action.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> caused by silicone in their bodies....some time before their problems,
> their enhanced breasts had started to reduce.....

**Nope. There was no proof that the silicone caused the problems.

Trevor Wilson
OzOne - 13 Mar 2008 00:34 GMT
>>>>>> Nope...You have it all wrong It was never proven taht their implants
>>>>>> were not at fault.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>**From broken plastic capsules.
Manufactured and supplied by Dow even after they realised that they
had a problem!
> The silicon was not responsible for the
>complainant's health problems.> It was shown to the jury that women with
>broken breast implants were not suffering any more diseases than the general
>population.

May I suggest that you read this
http://faculty.pnc.edu/arw/gbg344/344Midterm.htm

a concise reflection on Dow.

And this

http://www.siliconeholocaust.org/whatdowknew.html

You are welcome to your opinions...the facts are at odds with them.

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Klokmeester - 13 Mar 2008 09:51 GMT
>>>>>> Nope...You have it all wrong It was never proven taht their implants
>>>>>> were not at fault.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> **Nope. There was no proof that the silicone caused the problems.

I think your opinion is at odds with the reality on this one.
Daryl Walford - 12 Mar 2008 11:45 GMT
>> **Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
>> court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a little
>> more for each car they buy real soon now.
>
> Mistake was to buy a Ford with dreadful dynamics and a roof that
> collapsed.

From all accounts the Explorer isn't a great handler but I'd bet that
very many other vehicles would also roll causing the roof to collapse
when driven the same way.
Anyone with half a brain knows that its very dangerous to swerve any
vehicle at highway speeds so IMO the driver should be held at least
partly responsible.

Daryl
Noddy - 12 Mar 2008 12:16 GMT
> From all accounts the Explorer isn't a great handler but I'd bet that very
> many other vehicles would also roll causing the roof to collapse when
> driven the same way.
> Anyone with half a brain knows that its very dangerous to swerve any
> vehicle at highway speeds so IMO the driver should be held at least partly
> responsible.

Yeah, like 99% :)

You're right, the Exploder ain't a good vehicle (in fact it's a f.cking huge
heap of sh.t), but any other similar vehicle would most likely have done
exactly the same thing.

--
Regards,
Noddy.
Kev - 13 Mar 2008 20:32 GMT
>> From all accounts the Explorer isn't a great handler but I'd bet that very
>> many other vehicles would also roll causing the roof to collapse when
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Regards,
> Noddy.

Both the Toyota cruiser wagons and the Patrol wagons will roll easily if
a quick change of direction is attempted at highway speeds

But as usual people are looking for someone to blame for their own
stupidity/lack of ability

Kev
Noddy - 12 Mar 2008 04:18 GMT
> **Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
> court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> business. Such things may put other companies out of business, even though
> they are not at fault.

Only in America.

Ford has lost a number of ridiculous cases in the courts, including one in
the 1970's where a class action was taken against them by owners who claimed
that their column auto cars "automatically" shifted from park to reverse,
and usually when the driver got out and slammed the door closed. In a few of
the cases the cars were running on auto choke at the time and took off in
reverse causing damage, and one particular case if I remember correctly
concerned someone either being killed or severely injured when an "affected"
car was parked at the top of a steep driveway and rolled back crashing
through the house down below.

At the trial, Ford was clearly able to demonstrate that there was nothing
wrong with their gear lever system and the only way it could "pop" out of
park against the detent was if it wasn't fully placed into park in the first
place. The prosecution admitted that not *one* of the claimants had applied
the parking brake in conjunction with placing the transmission in park prior
to exiting the vehicle as they were *supposed* to (and as the owner's manual
supplied with every car stated they should), and while a bunch of practical
tests were done to try to make one of Ford's cars fall out of park the
phenomena could never be repeated for the jury.

Still, Ford lost the case, as the argument hinged on the term "park", and
the idea that placing the transmission in "park" meant the vehicle was
secure was a reasonable assumption for anyone to make. Nice to know that
Ford (and others) wasted millions of trees in printing operator's manuals
that no one takes any notice of.

Still, what goes around comes around.

When Ford released the Pinto in the early '70's the car quickly gained a
reputation as a killer, as it had a nasty habit of bursting into flames if
it was hit from behind. The problem stemmed from the fact that the fuel tank
was positioned in such a way that when the car was hit it from behind the
tank was punctured by some suspension bolts that were in less than ideal
positions, and it didn't take much of a hit for that to happen.

A number of people were killed, while many more were horrendously burned.

Still, that wasn't the worst of it. The *worst* of it was that Ford *knew*
about the problem before the car ever went on sale.

Almost unbelievably, Ford never crash tested one single Pinto before
releasing the thing for sale on the market. They were struggling to meet
their target release date and had advance orders and couldn't spare the cars
so they *simulated* it by using a few English Capri's modified in a way to
replicate the Pinto's fuel tank & suspension arrangement. Still, even in
those tests many of the car's split their tanks and burst into flames, and
they knew they had a potential problem on their hands.

Rather than address the issue and make the cars safe, Ford asked the
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to put a "dollar value" on a
human fatality so they could conduct a cost/benefit study. The NTHSA arrived
at a figure of $200,725 and Ford used this as their basis in their own
study, the report of which was entitled "Fatalities associated with crash
induced fuel leakage and fires".

Basically, they concluded that the cost of modifying each vehicle in the
Ford range to prevent fires would be $11 per vehicle, which would amount to
137 million dollars over the forecasted total year sales, compared to the
$200,725 they were likely to face each time someone was burnt to death in
one of their cars, it was unquestionably cheaper to sell the cars in a
dangerous state and let people be killed.

And that's exactly what they did.

Still, American laws are pretty f.cking dumb. There's a company in the US
called Simpson who manufactures motorsports safety equipment (things like
Helmets, driving suits, gloves, boots and the like). Their stuff is
enormously popular and they make pretty good gear, but they have to allocate
10% of their turnover to defending lawsuits that result from people suing
them when they're injured in motorsports accidents.

Even though you'd have to be dumber than dogshit to not know that such
activity is dangerous, and every piece of Simpson gear comes with a label
advising such.

--
Regards,
Noddy.
Trevor Wilson - 12 Mar 2008 04:34 GMT
>> **Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
>> court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
> activity is dangerous, and every piece of Simpson gear comes with a label
> advising such.

[Shakes head]

Trevor Wilson
OzOne - 12 Mar 2008 05:18 GMT
>>> **Bizarre. Silly bitch makes a mistake. The car is not at fault and the
>>> court awards damages against Ford. I guess every American will pay a
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
>
>Trevor Wilson

Yep, Noodelle often adjusts the facts to suit his argument.

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Athol - 12 Mar 2008 07:09 GMT
> At the trial, Ford was clearly able to demonstrate that there was nothing
> wrong with their gear lever system and the only way it could "pop" out of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> tests were done to try to make one of Ford's cars fall out of park the
> phenomena could never be repeated for the jury.

> Still, Ford lost the case, as the argument hinged on the term "park", and
> the idea that placing the transmission in "park" meant the vehicle was
> secure was a reasonable assumption for anyone to make. Nice to know that
> Ford (and others) wasted millions of trees in printing operator's manuals
> that no one takes any notice of.

If you've ever wondered why Allison autos don't have a park position...

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Daryl Walford - 12 Mar 2008 11:51 GMT
> Still, that wasn't the worst of it. The *worst* of it was that Ford *knew*
> about the problem before the car ever went on sale.

I suspect thats partly why Ford got punished in the Explorer case, they
gained a bad reputation so the jury assumed they were guilty.

Daryl
Noddy - 12 Mar 2008 12:36 GMT
> I suspect thats partly why Ford got punished in the Explorer case, they
> gained a bad reputation so the jury assumed they were guilty.

The jumping out of park thing was a "payback" as well I think, as that came
not all that long after the Pinto fiasco and it was still fresh in
everyone's mind.

On the other hand, some manufacturers are presumed guilty no matter how
innocent they are.

About 10 years ago some "current affairs" type show in the US thought it
would be a good idea to "invent" a headline, and came up with the story that
Chevy Stepside utes had a nasty habit of catching fire in accidents due to
the unusual location of their fuel tanks (the tank on the vehicle in
question was located in the side of the vehicle cabin just behind the
driver). They purchased a few of the things and set about deliberately
crashing them, and in "unique" ways that would be most likely to rupture the
tanks but highly unlikely to ever happen in the real world.

However, try as they might they couldn't get one to split it's tank and
burst into flames.

So, not wanting to waste their time & money they set about making one ignite
on purpose. They deliberately modified the fuel tank by placing a "burst
patch" in the thing so it would be guaranteed to spew it's load all over the
place when it was hit, and lined the area surrounding the tank with electric
peizzo lighters triggered by remote control. Of course, on the very next
test the modified vehicle was crashed, it's over full tank dropped it's guts
and a few seconds later it went up in a huge fireball when the "technician"
off camera hit the remote control button.

And the story went to air.

GM naturally hit the roof and claimed it was all bullshit, but as is the
case in such incidences that was accepted with about as much faith as Adolph
Eichmann saying he really loved Jews and was actually "helping them". The TV
show kept on about it thinking they were making a big name for themselves
when suddenly GM issued a writ against them with a star witness: One of the
"crew" who fabricated the explosion :)

In court GM was vindicated with the TV show fined and told not to do it
again, but they were *not* ordered to make a public apology nor was GM given
any airtime in their own defence to state that it was indeed all bullshit
and there was never anything wrong with their trucks.

To this day the things carry a reputation as a "Zippo" (as in the cigarette
lighter). Their sales were affected by the bad publicity and never really
climbed back to the pre story levels.

--
Regards,
Noddy.
John McKenzie - 12 Mar 2008 15:26 GMT
> GM naturally hit the roof and claimed it was all bullshit, but as is the
> case in such incidences that was accepted with about as much faith as Adolph
> Eichmann saying he really loved Jews and was actually "helping them".

way to burst my bubble.

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The Raven - 12 Mar 2008 22:14 GMT
>> I suspect thats partly why Ford got punished in the Explorer case, they
>> gained a bad reputation so the jury assumed they were guilty.
>
> The jumping out of park thing was a "payback" as well I think, as that
> came not all that long after the Pinto fiasco and it was still fresh in
> everyone's mind.

Jumping out of park was common to many column shift cars of the era and not
just Ford. IIRC both GM and Chrysler had the same issue.

As for exploding Pintos, I regularly drove a 71 model (supposedly the worst
for exploding). Provided no-one ran up the a.s of your car at a fair speed
they were rather safe. This main issue was that the tank hit the diff and
ruptered, with the tank then going down to grind along the road. Yes, not an
optimal design but there were cars far less safe than that.

> On the other hand, some manufacturers are presumed guilty no matter how
> innocent they are.

It's the old argument about them being a big, penny pinching company, more
interested in profits than lives. The old "but they can afford it".

Sure, they do something wrong and they should pay for it but lets not make
it silly numbers just because they can pay for it.

> About 10 years ago some "current affairs" type show in the US thought it
> would be a good idea to "invent" a headline, and came up with the story
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> However, try as they might they couldn't get one to split it's tank and
> burst into flames.

True, but there was a few real life cases of such crashes causing fires and
killing people. Of course, just about any car can be used to kill people if
misused appropriately. Designers can't be held responsible for every
eventuality no matter how rare/extreme.

> So, not wanting to waste their time & money they set about making one
> ignite on purpose. They deliberately modified the fuel tank by placing a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> And the story went to air.

Never heard of this but if true they should have been taken to court.

> GM naturally hit the roof and claimed it was all bullshit, but as is the
> case in such incidences that was accepted with about as much faith as
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> cigarette lighter). Their sales were affected by the bad publicity and
> never really climbed back to the pre story levels.

Hmmm, not dis-similar to the Pinto. If you ever see the crash test footage
of the Pinto exploding you might be surprised to know that is the *ONLY*
footage of such a collision and resulting fire. Sure, some did catch on fire
in similar on-road collisions but it was not as likely as Ralph Nader and
his bunch made out.
Noddy - 12 Mar 2008 23:01 GMT
> Jumping out of park was common to many column shift cars of the era and
> not just Ford. IIRC both GM and Chrysler had the same issue.

Only if you didn't put them into park properly in the first place.

> As for exploding Pintos, I regularly drove a 71 model (supposedly the
> worst for exploding). Provided no-one ran up the a.s of your car at a fair
> speed they were rather safe. This main issue was that the tank hit the
> diff and ruptered, with the tank then going down to grind along the road.
> Yes, not an optimal design but there were cars far less safe than that.

Not ever having crash tested a *single* Pinto before releasing it onto the
market was a *huge* blunder as far as Ford was concerned, or to be more
precise, Lee Iacocca's, as it was his baby. Then again, there's every
possibility that had they crash tested them and got an accurate picture of
just how bad they were they *still* would have released it anyway.

Such was Iacocca's want.

> It's the old argument about them being a big, penny pinching company, more
> interested in profits than lives. The old "but they can afford it".
>
> Sure, they do something wrong and they should pay for it but lets not make
> it silly numbers just because they can pay for it.

I agree, but then the 11 bucks per car fix to address the fire issues
associated with Fords in general wasn't a huge expense that could have
*easily* been either absorbed at some point in the chain or passed on to the
consumer without it being a big deal.

> True, but there was a few real life cases of such crashes causing fires
> and killing people. Of course, just about any car can be used to kill
> people if misused appropriately. Designers can't be held responsible for
> every eventuality no matter how rare/extreme.

Absolutely.

> Never heard of this but if true they should have been taken to court.

They were.

> Hmmm, not dis-similar to the Pinto.

Not dis-similar? How do you figure that?

One was a case about a cheap & nasty little car that killed a lot of people
while the other was a complete fabrication by some headline grabbing local
TV show.

> If you ever see the crash test footage of the Pinto exploding you might be
> surprised to know that is the *ONLY* footage of such a collision and
> resulting fire.

If you ever see crash test footage of a Pinto *period* it'll be extremely
rare, and carried out by someone other than Ford in trying to assess the
vehicles problems after they became known as Ford never crash tested a
*single* car prior to it's release.

> Sure, some did catch on fire in similar on-road collisions but it was not
> as likely as Ralph Nader and his bunch made out.

It was *incredibly* likely. 59 people were burned to death (and around
double that number hideously burned) in Pinto's in collisions where they
might have otherwise walked away unscathed in other cars, thanks largely to
the propensity of it's petrol tank being ruptured on suspension bolts, and
the tank filler neck having a habit of being ripped off the side of the
tank. What made it worse was that the Pinto also had a habit of being
unreliable, with the cars stalling and coming to an unexpected stop which
probably explains the rather high proportion of rear end hits they suffered.

Those people were all killed and injured in the fist 18 months of the car's
release *before* there was an inquiry and it's issues addressed by Ford. If
you think that's not very likely then I'd suggest you need to look at things
again.

The Pinto was one of the greatest lemons ever made, and Ford's handling of
the whole affair was appalling to say the least.

--
Regards,
Noddy.
Just JT - 12 Mar 2008 06:53 GMT
> .......you can get decent compensation when your Ford POS exhibits its
> failings.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...Or let society pay for ur own failings....

--
Glad.we're.not.in.'Merikuh.
Albm&ctd - 12 Mar 2008 10:42 GMT
> .......you can get decent compensation when your Ford POS exhibits its
> failings.

Some people shouldn't get keys... to any vehicle.  

Al
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It's more fun to insult everyone.
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