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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / May 2008

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Fuel Watch -- what it can and can't do

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Fran - 28 May 2008 11:08 GMT
A lot of blather has been spoken about fuel watch. It's a classic
excursion into populism, into being seen as doing something for the
common folk when in your heart of hearts you can do bugger all. Both
sides of politics are in a weird kind of auction to see which of them
can be more in touch with the problems of the common man, when neither
of them can be. This is the government we're talking about. One side
is in power and the other wants to be.

Repeated inquiries into petrol retailing have shown that in the major
capital cities at least, there is ample competition. Retail margins
are on average, about 4 cents per litre, which, even when petrol was a
lot less -- about a dollar per litre -- not unreasonable. Retailing
petrol requires investment in quite expensive to set up and maintain
infrastructure. Because it's a hazardous material, there's extensive
and expensive safety and environmental compliance -- and rightly so.
There's also considerable public liability. Running petrol pumps totes
up a power bill. So even though turnover is considerable, 4 cents per
litre doesn't sound unfair to me, especially when you consider that
many motorists pay be credit card.

So the most one could hope fuel watch to achieve in terms of prices is
to force margins down by some fraction of that 4 cents per litre. It
has to be quite a bit less than that because at some point, it simply
won't be possible to support the retailing overheads and the retailer
will have to get out of the business. So at most it can force prices
down to the point where the retailer thinks it will be marginally less
expensive to him/her to keep trading than to cease.  If a lot of
traders go out of business, retail margins may improve, forcing up
prices.

So the principal benefit to the motorist probably isn't going to be
cheaper prices. More likely it will be a shorter wait to get petrol at
the effective mean price during the cycle. Few people like queueing
for petrol and this process is itself wasteful of petrol. Everybody
(except the oil companies) loses in this scenario.

In the long run of course, what has to happen is a move to a transport
system less dependent on crude oil. More diverse, better and extensive
non-petrol-based transport has to be provided and people have to use
it. We have to start increasing population densities in the suburbs
rather than doing more urban sprawl. We also ought to get cracking
with biofuels (no pun intended). We have masses of marginal land with
waste biomass on it that we could use. We have sugar cane. We could
raise algae. In the long run, this is what has to happen, but its 2020
summit notwithstanding,  the government really can't get past the next
week of headlines.

Fran
Lu R - 28 May 2008 11:11 GMT
>A lot of blather has been spoken about fuel watch. It's a classic
> excursion into populism, into being seen as doing something for the
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Fran

Sorry but I dont agree with even MORE higher density housing. If I wanted to
live in Hong Kong Id move there..NEXT PROPOSAL?
Polly the Parrot - 28 May 2008 11:16 GMT
> Sorry but I dont agree with even MORE higher density housing. If I
> wanted to live in Hong Kong Id move there..

But we want you to live there.

NEXT PROPOSAL?

Move there, NOW.
Lu R - 28 May 2008 11:28 GMT
>> Sorry but I dont agree with even MORE higher density housing. If I
>> wanted to live in Hong Kong Id move there..
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Move there, NOW.

Get back on your perch shitforbrains..Im more than happy to give YOU the
sh.ts right here...lol
Polly the Parrot - 28 May 2008 11:59 GMT
> Get back on your perch shitforbrains..Im more than happy to give YOU
> the sh.ts right here...lol

You don't give me the sh.ts, Lu child.

You amuse me.

Does Mommy & Daddy think you are doing your homework while you lock
yourself in your room and surf for porn?
RogerM - 29 May 2008 03:31 GMT
>> Sorry but I dont agree with even MORE higher density housing. If I
>> wanted to live in Hong Kong Id move there..
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Move there, NOW.

LuR wasn't talking to the sh.t in the bottom of the cage. Be a good little
parrot now, Polly needs to f.ck off, Polly needs to f.ck off.

Roger
Lu R - 30 May 2008 16:27 GMT
>>> Sorry but I dont agree with even MORE higher density housing. If I
>>> wanted to live in Hong Kong Id move there..
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Roger

LOL thanx Roger..enjoying your Honda? Prius is going great!
Fran - 28 May 2008 13:49 GMT
> >A lot of blather has been spoken about fuel watch. It's a classic
> > excursion into populism, into being seen as doing something for the
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> Sorry but I dont agree with even MORE higher density housing. If I wanted to
> live in Hong Kong Id move there..NEXT PROPOSAL?

That's as may be. Most people don't like spending 15 hours plus per
week commuting and paying for the privilege. That's enough time to be
a serious factor in your child's life, party with your significant
other, have a second job, write that novel you always dreamed of or
simply put your feet up and do bugger all.

Yet this is what those years of cheap petrol have predisposed --
suburbs 25 miles out of town where you can build houses that cost a
fortune to heat and where you need a car to go anywhere important and
where when interest rates go up you're stuck between the proverbial
rock and a hard place. If you'd sold your soul to the devil it would
be a moral tale, but as it stands it's just banal and rather sad.

And it's wrecking the planet ...

Fran
atec77 - 28 May 2008 14:08 GMT
>> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> That's as may be. Most people don't like spending 15 hours plus per
> week commuting and paying for the privilege.
 which is why most take work closer to home , after all the word is
workers are hard to find
 That's enough time to be
> a serious factor in your child's life, party with your significant
> other, have a second job, write that novel you always dreamed of or
> simply put your feet up and do bugger all.
 or simply ignore because you are wrong in many cases

> Yet this is what those years of cheap petrol have predisposed --
 political bullshite to follow > frans rant
> suburbs 25 miles out of town where you can build houses that cost a
> fortune to heat

 not according to the rules which have been in place for years
 and where you need a car to go anywhere important
 agree , but then labor has failed on a state and coucil level for
years to alter this situation preferring instead to wind fees to silly
level instead of directing the developers to organise suitable transport
and centres
and
> where when interest rates go up you're stuck between the proverbial
> rock and a hard place.
 only if you bite off to much , those of use whoown property have no
problem
If you'd sold your soul to the devil it would
> be a moral tale, but as it stands it's just banal and rather sad.
 yes you are boring

> And it's wrecking the planet ...
 wrong again , it's speeding it but considering we are on a cooling cycle

> Fran
Fran - 28 May 2008 15:20 GMT
> >> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   which is why most take work closer to home , after all the word is
> workers are hard to find

The state of the M5 each day says otherwise.

> > That's enough time to be
> > a serious factor in your child's life, party with your significant
> > other, have a second job, write that novel you always dreamed of or
> > simply put your feet up and do bugger all.
>
>   or simply ignore because you are wrong in many cases

None that you can point out of course ...

> > Yet this is what those years of cheap petrol have predisposed --
>
>   political bullshite to follow

Translation: Atec77 wants to take a swing, but I just can't come up
with an argument. He settles for a lame flame.

> > suburbs 25 miles out of town where you can build houses that cost > > a
> > fortune to heat
>
>   not according to the rules which have been in place for years

Again, no content ...

> > and where you need a car to go anywhere important

>  agree , but then labor has failed on a state and council level for
> years to alter this situation preferring instead to wind fees to silly
> level instead of directing the developers to organise suitable transport
> and centres

Wrong approach anyway. Developers can't really do this stuff and
building out in the boondocks makes much of it too expensive

> > and where when interest rates go up you're stuck between the
> >proverbial
> > rock and a hard place.
>
>   only if you bite off to much , those of use who own property have no
> problem

Which many did, encouraged by the last government to believe in the
magic pudding theory of real estate.

> > If you'd sold your soul to the devil it would
> > be a moral tale, but as it stands it's just banal and rather sad.
>
>   yes you are boring

Says someone who posts no content, lacks insight and reaches for
reflexive abuse when he figures someone isn't conservative..

> > And it's wrecking the planet ...
>
> wrong again , it's speeding it but considering we are on a cooling
> cycle

Pfft ... GPC disinformation.

Fran
atec77 - 28 May 2008 21:35 GMT
>>>> "Fran" <Fran.B...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> That's as may be. Most people don't like spending 15 hours plus per
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The state of the M5 each day says otherwise.
 qeong but nice red herring

>>>  That's enough time to be
>>> a serious factor in your child's life, party with your significant
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> None that you can point out of course ...
 prove otherwise with cites after all your making all the false claims

>>> Yet this is what those years of cheap petrol have predisposed --
>>   political bullshite to follow
>
> Translation: Atec77 wants to take a swing, but I just can't come up
> with an argument.
 bad come back
 noq if you have nothing more
He settles for a lame flame.
 statement of fact

>>> suburbs 25 miles out of town where you can build houses that cost > > a
>>> fortune to heat
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Wrong approach anyway. Developers can't really do this stuff
 yup they have
and
> building out in the boondocks makes much of it too expensive
 but it's not the boondocks when built

>>> and where when interest rates go up you're stuck between the
>>> proverbial
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Which many did, encouraged by the last government to believe in the
> magic pudding theory of real estate.
 explain this , I know if you buy the houses gain value and with the
rental problems someone will rent it making you money.. std are for the
last 400 or so years

>>> If you'd sold your soul to the devil it would
>>> be a moral tale, but as it stands it's just banal and rather sad.
>>   yes you are boring
>
> Says someone who posts no content,
 some conent proving the point to a larger degree
 lacks insight
 ;par you know nothng and again grab the ill informed misguided guess
and reaches for
> reflexive abuse when he figures someone isn't conservative..
 nothing reflexive about it bitch

>>> And it's wrecking the planet ...
>> wrong again , it's speeding it but considering we are on a cooling
>> cycle
>
> Pfft ... GPC disinformation.

 fact and you failed to prove otherwise

> Fran
Jeßus - 28 May 2008 23:11 GMT
>>> A lot of blather has been spoken about fuel watch. It's a classic
>>> excursion into populism, into being seen as doing something for the
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> And it's wrecking the planet ...

Amen and well said.

I came to much the same conclusion quite some time ago.

Myself, I now have no debts of any kind, have moved *well away* from the
sh.t (and forthcoming even worse sh.t) and am doing a semi
self-sufficiency thing here.

I feel sorry for the great unwashed out there who haven't yet begun to
comprehend what their future holds. Even if they did, most of them won't
do a damned thing to really help themselves anyway and will follow the
herd.
By the same token I (and other people like me) are in a way much better
off if they don't wise up and leave the major centres. But at some point
 these people are going to forced upon them considerable compromises
(i.e no car, no house block) if the major cities are to function at all.
Just look at all the other major cities in the U.S, Asia or Europe...
Jeßus - 28 May 2008 22:58 GMT
> Sorry but I dont agree with even MORE higher density housing. If I wanted to
> live in Hong Kong Id move there..NEXT PROPOSAL?

You haven't thought this through.
Higher density housing IS a good idea.
Keeps the masses in one spot and reduces urban sprawl. I sure as f.ck 
won't live in it (I wont even live in a suburban situation) and as such
can only be a good thing for those of us who choose not to live in the
major metro and regional areas.

The LAST thing we need is MORE urban sprawl.
The number one key issue for the world is population control, but of
course no one is going to touch that issue with a ten foot pole!
Benway - 28 May 2008 11:13 GMT
> A lot of blather has been spoken about fuel watch. It's a classic
> excursion into populism, into being seen as doing something for the
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Fran
*********************************************
I really think that Aussies should brace themselves
for the financial reality that will soon hit them all.

George Soros on the global economy:
"I think this is probably more serious than
anything in our lifetime...

This is a period of wealth destruction.
The people who make money will be few
and far between. There will be a lot
more money lost than made.

As a hedge fund manager, I do not claim
to be serving the public interest. I am
in the business to make money"

*******************************
the fonz - 28 May 2008 12:17 GMT
> Retail margins are on average, about 4 cents per litre,
> which, even when petrol was a lot less -- about a
> dollar per litre -- not unreasonable.

but retail is not where the price gouging is occurring. the rip-off
occurs at the wholesale end. Caltex's share price has risen from about
85c to $26 between 2001 and 2008. that pretty much says it all really.

it's a bit of an open secret that the oil majors collude on price. you
would have to be a very optimistic and naive person to believe they
don't. there is such a restricted supply of petroleum that it prevents
the application of normal market forces necessary to produce
sufficient competition and downward pressure on prices.
GrassyNoel - 28 May 2008 13:37 GMT
> it's a bit of an open secret that the oil majors collude on price. you
> would have to be a very optimistic and naive person to believe they
> don't. there is such a restricted supply of petroleum that it prevents
> the application of normal market forces necessary to produce
> sufficient competition and downward pressure on prices.

I think some action by government to outlaw the established 'price
cycle' would be great. I'm amazed no-one in government has spoken out
against it. But I do think FuelWatch dampens it down a bit. I think
prices vary less during the week than before FuelWatch, but I don't
think it has led to prices being lower than they would otherwise be.
Jeßus - 28 May 2008 22:53 GMT
<snip>
> The government really can't get past the next
> week of headlines.

Exactly. They won't (and in a political sense, can't) actually DO
anything genuinely constructive until it gets much, much, much worse
than it is now.
Don H - 28 May 2008 23:05 GMT
> A lot of blather has been spoken about fuel watch. It's a classic
> excursion into populism, into being seen as doing something for the
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Fran

# The key aspect of "Fuel Watch" is "Watch" - you watch as price of petrol
goes up.  True, the scheme does give motorists the option of choosing to buy
from lowest price outlet on day concerned, but this is a choice from within
the range on that day; tomorrow the whole range goes up.  There is nothing
to stop prices increasing.
  A govt-mandated maximum of, say, $1-50 per litre, as a cap, would be
"interference with the Free Market", something anathema to any Social
Democrat - it would smack of Communism.
  Trouble is, oil reserves world-wide have peaked, and are now in decline.
Oil will only get dearer from now on.  We must learn to do without, or find
alternatives.
   A switch to smaller, fuel-efficient, hybrid, or all-electric vehicles,
is indicated.  Long-haul road transports must be phased out, and replaced by
rail.
   All of which assumes that the species Homo Sapiens has a future, and is
not in terminal decline due to a too casual attitude to global warming.  If
we're all to be extinct within the next few decades, then who cares?...
 
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