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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / September 2008

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Police check catching quite a few motorists

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gregori - 29 Aug 2008 03:42 GMT
I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday.
Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing
everyone to pass them in a single lane.
as I approached the unmarked cop car (dark tinted windows) in the
centre lane
mounted on a tripod beside the car was what looked similar to a small
radar device. Cylindrical in shape and was pointed down wards at an
angle towards
the front engine compartment of each car that passed by.

As we were only travelling at a few KMs/hr it was obviously not a speed
check.
The driver in front of me was pulled over and there was probably 3 or 4
other vehicles being booked at the time.
Probably 5 cop cars and twice as many police.

Any ideas what they were doing/checking?
Thanks
Greg

Signature

gregori
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

jackbadger56 - 29 Aug 2008 04:08 GMT
On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au>
wrote:
> I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday.
> Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> gregori
> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking
unregistered cars.
the_dawggie - 29 Aug 2008 04:22 GMT
> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking
> unregistered cars.

RBT? could be unregoed vehicles. That's just down a road from
me.

I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put
on whatever show they like it seems, just because they
can.
Atheist Chaplain - 29 Aug 2008 04:26 GMT
On Aug 29, 1:08 pm, jackbadger56 <castl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking
> unregistered cars.

RBT? could be unregoed vehicles. That's just down a road from
me.

I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put
on whatever show they like it seems, just because they
can.

==============================================

if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ??
Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)

Signature

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg

the_dawggie - 29 Aug 2008 04:35 GMT
> On Aug 29, 1:08 pm, jackbadger56 <castl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ??
> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)

They are legal, however Athol is jumping up and down
wanting to issue a G092 on them to make them RTA
legal.

No, not so much that, however I don't like people
poking into my life. If I don't disturb/damage others
I don't expect them to interrupt my life. If I do damage
someone else or their property then I'll take responsibility
for it. That said, yes motor vehicles must have a current rego,
and drivers a current license.
RainbowWarrior - 29 Aug 2008 07:21 GMT
On Aug 29, 1:26 pm, "Atheist Chaplain" <abu...@cia.gov> wrote:
> "the_dawggie" <the_dawg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ??
> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)

They are legal, however Athol is jumping up and down
wanting to issue a G092 on them to make them RTA
legal.

No, not so much that, however I don't like people
poking into my life. If I don't disturb/damage others
I don't expect them to interrupt my life. If I do damage
someone else or their property then I'll take responsibility
for it. That said, yes motor vehicles must have a current rego,
and drivers a current license.

And we all know that if you were on the recieving end of an incident caused
by the average 20yo clown with mods legal or not you could trust them to
take responsibility for yourr injuries and damgaes?
Athol - 29 Aug 2008 08:25 GMT
>> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ??
>> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)

> They are legal, however Athol is jumping up and down
> wanting to issue a G092 on them to make them RTA
> legal.

The vehicle is not legal.  It is, by definition, defective due to the
absence of an engineering ccertificate.  It's only that it has not
been inspected and issued with a defect notice.

Of course, if you move to QLD, you won't be able to establish rego up
there without it being certified.  Most of the time, if it has already
been certified in NSW and it's shown on the rego papers, it'll be
accepted in QLD without requiring a blue QLD mod plate...

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Daryl Walford - 29 Aug 2008 09:15 GMT
>>> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ??
>>> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> absence of an engineering ccertificate.  It's only that it has not
> been inspected and issued with a defect notice.

Since we are speaking about engineering certificates do we need one for
fitting a 4AGZE into a AE86?
The replacement engine is the same capacity as the original and bolts
straight in although the original engine had 58kw and the new one has 123kw.
It also has a T series rear axle with a TRD LSD and disc brakes.

Daryl
Athol - 29 Aug 2008 12:03 GMT
> Since we are speaking about engineering certificates do we need one for
> fitting a 4AGZE into a AE86?
> The replacement engine is the same capacity as the original and bolts
> straight in although the original engine had 58kw and the new one has 123kw.

But it is also supercharged and may be designed to comply with a different
emissions rule (either Australian or overseas).  Even bolting a turbo or
supercharger onto an original engine (eg a gutless Toyota 3L diesel engine
with a turbo that takes it from totally gutless to boringly slow  :-) ) is
required to be certified.  In all cases, unless the exhaust system is the
original system for the new engine, which is known to comply with the right
noise ADR for the year of the vehicle, it'll need a noise test.

With a known emission complying engine being dropped into a car, it still
has to be engineered but doesn't need emission testing (or smoke testing,
in the case of filthy pre-emission diesels).

> It also has a T series rear axle with a TRD LSD and disc brakes.

If they weren't an original option on that model in Australia, they need
to be certified.

That's the case for NSW at least.  Your mileage may vary.  :-)

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Daryl Walford - 29 Aug 2008 13:17 GMT
>> Since we are speaking about engineering certificates do we need one for
>> fitting a 4AGZE into a AE86?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> original system for the new engine, which is known to comply with the right
> noise ADR for the year of the vehicle, it'll need a noise test.

You confirmed what I already thought, the car is a 1983 and the engine
is a 1992 or 1993 so I assume we have to comply with the emission rules
that applied at the time the engine was built.

> With a known emission complying engine being dropped into a car, it still
> has to be engineered but doesn't need emission testing (or smoke testing,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> That's the case for NSW at least.  Your mileage may vary.  :-)

AFAIK the rules are much the same.

Daryl
Athol - 29 Aug 2008 14:08 GMT
> You confirmed what I already thought, the car is a 1983 and the engine
> is a 1992 or 1993 so I assume we have to comply with the emission rules
> that applied at the time the engine was built.

Yep.

> AFAIK the rules are much the same.

AFAIK, NSW, QLD and VIC have all not adopted the national code of
practice (AKA dogs breakfast).  The older separate rule books, although
clearly separately written, are more consistent with each other than
with the new NCOP that was written by taking chunks from the various
state and territory rules and trying to fit them together...

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

jackbadger56 - 29 Aug 2008 04:35 GMT
> On Aug 29, 1:08 pm, jackbadger56 <castl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ??

Could be be scared of one or more of many things, such as........
# - they're going to rort him of his million$
# - the baton-waver might scratch the 'lux (it's no ordinary Hilux,
but a 'lux Deluxe!)
# - he may be asked to do a reverse park into the booking bay
# - a derogatory comment from the booking officer might just send him
over the edge
# - questions may be asked as to why he's driving in the
neeyoooooood!!!

;-p

> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)
>
> --
> "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
> Don Hirschberg
the_dawggie - 29 Aug 2008 04:55 GMT
> > "the_dawggie" <the_dawg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> # - questions may be asked as to why he's driving in the
> neeyoooooood!!!

I can reverse it or drive forward without a scratch on either bars to
within a cm. The only time I was not paying attention, knocked
rubber strip from driver's door - there is a 1cm scratch. Reversing
into a f.cked up design of a car park got a slight scratch again
1cm (again no dent and again no damage to galvaneealing). I'm
doing OK for an almost 19 yo vehicle that looks new with 230,000
km on it.

A 5+ metre long vehicle you have to think about in parking
garages.
jackbadger56 - 29 Aug 2008 05:24 GMT
> > > "the_dawggie" <the_dawg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> A 5+ metre long vehicle you have to think about in parking
> garages.

Luv ya, Dawg! ;-p
Noddy - 29 Aug 2008 05:50 GMT
> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ??
> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)

And defective brakes.

The sooner it's put off the road the better for everyone around him.

--
Regards,
Noddy.
veritas - 29 Aug 2008 06:23 GMT
> I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put
> on whatever show they like it seems, just because they
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ??
> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/28/law-prof-and-cop-agr.html

Did you catch this from someones recent post (can't recall who/where tho)?

Quite good, I thought.
Atheist Chaplain - 29 Aug 2008 06:56 GMT
>> I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put
>> on whatever show they like it seems, just because they
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Quite good, I thought.

I'll have a watch when I get home :-)
Thanks

Signature

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg

RainbowWarrior - 29 Aug 2008 07:25 GMT
>> I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put
>> on whatever show they like it seems, just because they
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Quite good, I thought.

Yep, better not to even ring them if you are being attacked or have your
house broken into or some idiot rams your car off the road and drives off,
incase you get locked up and charged........................
^Tems^ - 29 Aug 2008 04:34 GMT
>> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au>
>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> on whatever show they like it seems, just because they
> can.

Best you walk to the local shop to buy the tin foil for your next hat
Sylvia Else - 29 Aug 2008 05:10 GMT
> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking
> unregistered cars.
Added aus.legal

It appears to me that the police would have no power to erect a road
block for the purpose of finding people using unregistered cars. It
would have to be for something more serious. Though if they detect
unregistered cars in the process, they'd no doubt take action against
the drivers.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/leara2002451/s37.html

Sylvia.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 03:51 GMT
> > On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> > Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking
> > unregistered cars.

Here is an example of NSW Police abusing their power by using
Automatic Number Plate Recognition vehicles to check number plates &
pull over unregistered drivers in NSW:

http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/c1491748.html

http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html
TomTom - 01 Sep 2008 03:56 GMT
>>> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au>
>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html

In what specific way do you say that the NSW police are abusing their
powers?
Sylvia Else - 01 Sep 2008 04:00 GMT
>>> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au>
>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html

You apparently replied to my posting, in which I raised a doubt about
the legality, but the specific aspect I was focussing on was the road
block.

I can't see any legal grounds for objecting to the situations you've
cited. Indeed, I don't see any non-legal ground, provided no records
were kept about vehicles that were not identified as being unregistered
or otherwise of interest to the police.

Sylvia.
Toby Ponsenby - 01 Sep 2008 07:41 GMT
> I can't see any legal grounds for objecting to the situations you've
> cited. Indeed, I don't see any non-legal ground, provided no records
> were kept about vehicles that were not identified as being unregistered
> or otherwise of interest to the police.

Your proviso is utterly f.cked.
There is absolutely no way that the material checked and used in the
checking has been deleted/removed.
Why?
Because there's no legislation to make the bastards delete/remove it.
So they didn't, and they won't.

Signature

Toby

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble,
finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly
and applying the wrong remedies."
-Groucho Marx.

Athol - 01 Sep 2008 07:52 GMT
In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> Your proviso is utterly f.cked.
> There is absolutely no way that the material checked and used in the
> checking has been deleted/removed.
> Why?
> Because there's no legislation to make the bastards delete/remove it.
> So they didn't, and they won't.

Actually, there is another reason why it *has* to be retained...

Anti-corruption rules.  Every enquiry of the numberplate database has to
be traceable to who/when/where/why to prevent corrupt cops from looking
stuff up for their mates, etc..

Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates
of vehicles that were not flagged for attention.  :-(

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Sylvia Else - 01 Sep 2008 08:07 GMT
> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates
> of vehicles that were not flagged for attention.  :-(

That's a tad simplistic. There is no anti-corruption purpose to be
served by recording the identity of the person making a query when the
query is made on the person's behalf by an automatic number plate
reading system, and the response is that the vehicle is not of interest.

Flagging the fact that each number has been queried, and by whom, even
in that common case, would create a significant system load - for which
read cost.

Sylvia.
Toby Ponsenby - 01 Sep 2008 13:20 GMT
>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Sylvia.

Data cost is at best negligible, and are decreasing.
The records are also permanent, just like we're hearing Facebook details
and of course Usenet posts.
It's easy to submerge data holding costs in  the monster development
costs associated with systems like this - not to mention purchase costs.
If I didn't know better I'd say most IT projects are akin to money
laundering:-)

Signature

Toby

FDA approves radiation of spinach, warns that if eaten in large
quantities,
the irradiated spinach may cause blindness in one eye,
and huge forearm tumors.
- Drew Curtis from fark.com August 2008

Kwyjibo - 01 Sep 2008 13:35 GMT
>>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Data cost is at best negligible,

LOL.

> and are decreasing.

Wrong. Most large organisations are moving away from local SCSI storage to
fibre attached SAN storage, which works out a lot more expensive. Add in a
replicated solution for disaster recovery and the cost explodes even
further. One organisation I was recently dealing with estimated their cost
of tier 1 storage at AU$11 per gigabyte per month.That is not even close to
what any sane person would consider 'negligible'.

> The records are also permanent,

Wrong again.
Data storage has a substantial cost associated with it. All organisations
that I have dealt with (and I deal with very large corporates and govt
departments on this topic on a daily basis) are loath to keep any
information any longer than is legally required.

> just like we're hearing Facebook details
> and of course Usenet posts.
> It's easy to submerge data holding costs in  the monster development
> costs associated with systems like this

Wrong again. You obviously know SFA about the way such projects are funded.

> - not to mention purchase costs.
> If I didn't know better

You clearly don't.

> I'd say most IT projects are akin to money
> laundering:-)

Stick to folding up tin foil hats, dopey.

Signature

Kwyj.

Toby Ponsenby - 01 Sep 2008 15:38 GMT
>>>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>
>> Data cost is at best negligible,

> LOL.

First Genius retort.. from ...ahh - my very own fuckwit shill stalker!!!

Ripper.

needless linking to the rabit shite over at aus.legal removed.

>> and are decreasing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of tier 1 storage at AU$11 per gigabyte per month.That is not even close to
> what any sane person would consider 'negligible'.

RIGHT, fuckwit shill stalker.
If the storage "most" "large" organisations were moving towards a
different storage meme, it would certainly NOT cost more. No matter
what.
Evidently the organisation you were recently dealing with was
miss-advised. You have anything to do with that?

>> The records are also permanent,
>
> Wrong again.

Prove it.

> Data storage has a substantial cost associated with it. All organisations
> that I have dealt with (and I deal with very large corporates and govt
> departments on this topic on a daily basis) are loath to keep any
> information any longer than is legally required.

Fucken HERO fuckwit shill stalker!!!
Loath? Wow - WhataWort!!
But we're talking about law 'enforcement' turkeys here, stupid - not
banks, retailers and telcos with huge amounts of utterly useless data
which is purely that once it's been mined/pattern-matched, sold off or
given to law enforcement - but hang on, we're taking about law
enforcement agencies here.. get it.. Nope. Not a chance.


>> just like we're hearing Facebook details
>> and of course Usenet posts.
>> It's easy to submerge data holding costs in  the monster development
>> costs associated with systems like this
>
> Wrong again. You obviously know SFA about the way such projects are funded.

What projects, fuckwit shill stalker? - Usenet, Facebook, Google?

>> - not to mention purchase costs.
>> If I didn't know better
>
> You clearly don't.
Stupid and unproven assertion - but so go on ... I know you will

>> I'd say most IT projects are akin to money
>> laundering:-)
>
> Stick to folding up tin foil hats, dopey.

eg - Westpac, $300,000,000 on an IT  'product ' than never say the light
of day. Now that's Money Laundering.
Tin Hat claim is as expected - you've got noting else - Of course it's
possible you're a benefactor of the money laundering in some twisted way
- and you've every right to protect you patch.  Hell, you need to be
because the shill payments have probably dropped through the floor
lately, grasshopper, the public teat funding for your lot has been
dropped to electoral expenses lately. Oh, and some donations - can't
forget those - just another form of Shill payment, of course.
Yeah, it Does Stick. Like sh.t to a blanket.
Needless to say, calling Tin Hat is your stock fuckwit shill stalker
routine, and it's as boring as batshit.

Signature

Toby

Olympic Games:
The fervid activities of the shamelessly self-obsessed,
brought to your living-room by shameless self-promoters.
Bonus - it's paid for by the self-deluded.

Kwyjibo - 01 Sep 2008 16:07 GMT
>>>>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> needless linking to the rabit shite over at aus.legal removed.

Restored so they can have a laugh at your idiocy as well.

>>> and are decreasing.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> If the storage "most" "large" organisations were moving towards a
> different storage meme, it would certainly NOT cost more.

Wrong, yet again.

> No matter what.

Bullshit.
People with a clue (that precludes you) are quite happy to pay more for the
higher performance, availability, greater DR capability and flexibility that
the more expensive storage brings.

If your silly sh.t is true, try explaining why sales of directly attached
SCSI external storage arrays are through the floor, while sales for SAN
vendors such as NetApp, EMC and HDS are growing at record levels.

> Evidently the organisation you were recently dealing with was
> miss-advised.

Evidently you don't have a clue.

> You have anything to do with that?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Prove it.

You made the idiotic claim fuckwit - YOU prove it.

>> Data storage has a substantial cost associated with it. All organisations
>> that I have dealt with (and I deal with very large corporates and govt
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Loath? Wow - WhataWort!!
> But we're talking about law 'enforcement' turkeys here, stupid

And what part of 'corporates and *govt departments*' are you having trouble
comprehending?
Maybe get a school kid to help you out with some of the big words (that's if
their parents are actually stupid enough to let you anywhere near them)

> not
> banks, retailers and telcos with huge amounts of utterly useless data
> which is purely that once it's been mined/pattern-matched, sold off or
> given to law enforcement - but hang on, we're taking about law
> enforcement agencies here.. get it.. Nope. Not a chance.

Yep. I sure do.
Pity you completely fail to grasp the concept that data storage has a very
high price attached to it.

>>> just like we're hearing Facebook details
>>> and of course Usenet posts.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> What projects, fuckwit shill stalker? - Usenet, Facebook, Google?

Those, and the law enforcement projects you were referring to.

>>> - not to mention purchase costs.
>>> If I didn't know better
>>
>> You clearly don't.
> Stupid and unproven assertion - but so go on ... I know you will

You've proven it yourself by making a stupid statement about data storage
costs being negligible when you don't have a f.cking clue.

>>> I'd say most IT projects are akin to money
>>> laundering:-)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> eg - Westpac, $300,000,000 on an IT  'product ' than never say the light
> of day. Now that's Money Laundering.

Ummmm. No.
Not even close, stupid.

> Tin Hat claim is as expected - you've got noting else

I don't need anything else. You're as silly as a bum full of smarties.

>- Of course it's
> possible you're a benefactor of the money laundering in some twisted way

Ahhh. Here we go with yet another mindless conspiracy theory.
Have your meds run out again?

> - and you've every right to protect you patch.  Hell, you need to be
> because the shill payments have probably dropped through the floor
> lately, grasshopper, the public teat funding for your lot

My lot? Who do you imagine that to be?

> has been
> dropped to electoral expenses lately.

So who am I a shill for? The last time I checked, I hadn't mentioned who I
work for, in what area I work, or who any of my customers have been.

> Oh, and some donations - can't
> forget those - just another form of Shill payment, of course.
> Yeah, it Does Stick. Like sh.t to a blanket.
> Needless to say, calling Tin Hat is your stock fuckwit shill stalker
> routine, and it's as boring as batshit.

And you're clearly upset because it's true.
Got any other brain-dead conspiracy theories for me to laugh at?

Signature

Kwyj.

terryc - 02 Sep 2008 02:52 GMT
> If your silly sh.t is true, try explaining why sales of directly attached
> SCSI external storage arrays are through the floor, while sales for SAN
> vendors such as NetApp, EMC and HDS are growing at record levels.

Fashion. 99% of this stuff is purchased by peeps suckered by marketing and
you are not comparing apples with apples.

Care to tell us what is inside these boxen?

And to put that in a wider perspective, I recently trashed some "directly
attached SCSI external storage arrays" that would have been about $20K
each about 10 years ago and been top of the range.

Why?

Because to test them out, I needed to buy a scsi 5 cable that would
costs $80+postage. As a SOHO, it was cheaper just to buy another SATA
disk, of greater capacity, and mount it into the fileserver.

Why do I still have a file server with internally attched storage?
Because I run a proper backup system and not a copy system which is what
most people run. The backup system runs directly off the fileserver and
thus does not impact the network for most of the files it backs up.

Which brings me back to the argument about cost of storage of tracking
data. Cost is directly related to the demand and if it is high demand,
then it is still run a highly configured SCSI based storage system. Lessor
can be run on slower disks and stuff that is only used occassionally can
be shipped off to other storae media; tape, CD or DVD for recovery when
needed.
Kwyjibo - 02 Sep 2008 08:20 GMT
>> If your silly sh.t is true, try explaining why sales of directly attached
>> SCSI external storage arrays are through the floor, while sales for SAN
>> vendors such as NetApp, EMC and HDS are growing at record levels.
>
> Fashion.

Crap.

> 99% of this stuff is purchased by peeps suckered by marketing and
> you are not comparing apples with apples.

Umm. I'm comparing disk based storage with disk based storage.

> Care to tell us what is inside these boxen?

You mean other than FC controllers, SPs, RAID controllers, load balancers
etc.? Not much.

> And to put that in a wider perspective, I recently trashed some "directly
> attached SCSI external storage arrays" that would have been about $20K
> each about 10 years ago and been top of the range.
>
> Why?

Because it's an archaic piece of sh.t that would more than likely be
outperformed by a current consumer-grade SATA drive.

> Because to test them out, I needed to buy a scsi 5 cable that would
> costs $80+postage. As a SOHO, it was cheaper just to buy another SATA
> disk, of greater capacity, and mount it into the fileserver.
>
> Why do I still have a file server with internally attched storage?

Because your disk i/o requirements don't justify enterprise storage.

> Because I run a proper backup system and not a copy system which is what
> most people run. The backup system runs directly off the fileserver and
> thus does not impact the network for most of the files it backs up.

WTF? Are you saying that you back up to disk directly attached to the same
server you are backing up?
Welcome to 1995.........

> Which brings me back to the argument about cost of storage of tracking
> data. Cost is directly related to the demand and if it is high demand,
> then it is still run a highly configured SCSI based storage system. Lessor
> can be run on slower disks and stuff that is only used occassionally can
> be shipped off to other storae media; tape, CD or DVD for recovery when
> needed.

No one with any brains uses CD or DVD for any critical data i the enterprise
space. Tape and disk are the primary technologies used ATM, usually
fibre-attached for both. And they both have (not negligible) costs
associated with them.

Signature

Kwyj.

Sylvia Else - 01 Sep 2008 14:38 GMT
>>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Data cost is at best negligible, and are decreasing.

I wasn't thinking so much of the cost of storing it on the storage
medium, as the cost of writing it to the medium.

Sylvia.
terryc - 01 Sep 2008 16:06 GMT
> Flagging the fact that each number has been queried, and by whom, even
> in that common case, would create a significant system load - for which
> read cost.

AFAIK, that has beenthe situation for a number of years. Vaguely remember
a case where a plod was dismissed for stalking and part of the evidence
was his looking up their vehicles in the database when he didn't have a
legit reason for it.
Bernd Felsche - 01 Sep 2008 17:40 GMT
>> Actually, there is another reason why it *has* to be retained...

>> Anti-corruption rules.  Every enquiry of the numberplate database has to
>> be traceable to who/when/where/why to prevent corrupt cops from looking
>> stuff up for their mates, etc..

>> Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates
>> of vehicles that were not flagged for attention.  :-(

>That's a tad simplistic. There is no anti-corruption purpose to be
>served by recording the identity of the person making a query when the
>query is made on the person's behalf by an automatic number plate
>reading system, and the response is that the vehicle is not of interest.

>Flagging the fact that each number has been queried, and by whom, even
>in that common case, would create a significant system load - for which
>read cost.

Congratulations. You've identified one of the "drivers" of the nutty
idea. Marketing.
Signature

/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | Science is the belief in
X   against HTML mail     | the ignorance of the experts.
/ \  and postings          |  -- Richard Feynman

Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 08:08 GMT
: In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
: Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates
: of vehicles that were not flagged for attention.  :-(

Doesnt stop ya mtes from finding stuff though, it just means that they have to back it up with a
plausible argument.  One of the favourites seems to be QV- Suspicious person lurking around parked
car and found not to be owner.

I have heard of some VERY dodgy reasons for looking up details.  A mate wanted to buy a car but
couldnt find its owner as every time he hung around they never showed and when he did leave it later
they had gone so had a QV done and ended up buying the car.  To this day he wont tell me what he
said to its owner to how he found them as it wasnt them that drove it on a regular basis but thier
partner.  That could take some explaining if he was caught Id say.
jonz - 01 Sep 2008 09:31 GMT
> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates
> of vehicles that were not flagged for attention.  :-(

                      crap
Bernd Felsche - 01 Sep 2008 17:37 GMT
>In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>> There is absolutely no way that the material checked and used in the
>> checking has been deleted/removed.
>> Why?
>> Because there's no legislation to make the bastards delete/remove it.
>> So they didn't, and they won't.

>Actually, there is another reason why it *has* to be retained...

>Anti-corruption rules.  Every enquiry of the numberplate database
>has to be traceable to who/when/where/why to prevent corrupt cops
>from looking stuff up for their mates, etc..

>Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates
>of vehicles that were not flagged for attention.  :-(

Then again; such data can be quarantined from use in other
investigations.

And that is indeed the case in countries like Germany where
systematic surveillance of the public is unconsitutional.
Evidence from each investigation "falls through a trap-door".
It cannot be used elsewhere. It is indeed unlawful to do a trawl for
offences.

Unlike Australia, going for a half-hour drive in Germany shows that
Police are actively stopping and dealing with stuff as it happens.
They're not all hiding behind a mouse in a poorly-ventilated office.

There are also speed cameras ... but few Police forces take them
seriously at all; because they've been recognized to have no
significant road safety benefit. The cameras are deployed for
political reasons; to provide revenue for local authorities; and to
give the illusion of power to some.
Signature

/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | Science is the belief in
X   against HTML mail     | the ignorance of the experts.
/ \  and postings          |  -- Richard Feynman

B J Foster - 01 Sep 2008 20:12 GMT
>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Then again; such data can be quarantined from use in other
> investigations.

Can be, but is it?

> And that is indeed the case in countries like Germany where
> systematic surveillance of the public is unconsitutional.
> Evidence from each investigation "falls through a trap-door".
> It cannot be used elsewhere. It is indeed unlawful to do a trawl for
> offences.

This is not Germany. We are a lot more complacent and officials being
what they are will start using it.

> Unlike Australia, going for a half-hour drive in Germany shows that
> Police are actively stopping and dealing with stuff as it happens.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> political reasons; to provide revenue for local authorities; and to
> give the illusion of power to some.
terryc - 01 Sep 2008 16:04 GMT

> Here is an example of NSW Police abusing their power by using
> Automatic Number Plate Recognition vehicles to check number plates &
> pull over unregistered drivers in NSW:

when was the device fitted? and what is the nae of it?
Athol - 29 Aug 2008 08:38 GMT
>> I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday.
>> Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> angle towards
>> the front engine compartment of each car that passed by.

>> As we were only travelling at a few KMs/hr it was obviously not a speed
>> check.
>> The driver in front of me was pulled over and there was probably 3 or 4
>> other vehicles being booked at the time.
>> Probably 5 cop cars and twice as many police.

>> Any ideas what they were doing/checking?

> Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking
> unregistered cars.

The description fits perfectly.

The camera takes a photo of the front of the vehicle and, using software
similar to that used on the safe-t-(s)cam system, the system locates and
reads the number plate.  It is then automatically looked up on the police
system and the RTA DRIVES registration system.

The camera only covers one lane of traffic at a time.  It is not able to
do multiple lanes, so the funnelling makes sense for its operation even
if it doesn't make sense from a traffic flow POV.

The computer search will flag more than just unregistered and stolen
vehicles.  It will also flag intelligence on likely occupants of the vehicle
in relation to all sorts of stuff including outstanding warrants, drug
posession, drug or alcohol use whilst driving (DUI), posess stolen goods,
etc..

When the computer tells the cops to stop a particular vehicle in the
traffic stream, it also tells them all of the details of why...

While I don't like the fact that they're using it in a way that f.cks up
traffic flow, I do like the fact that the cops are using this targetted
approach rather than randomly picking on people for speeding.

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

RogerM - 30 Aug 2008 01:50 GMT
>>> I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday.
>>> Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> traffic flow, I do like the fact that the cops are using this targetted
> approach rather than randomly picking on people for speeding.

LOL, you have the cart b4 the horse again Athol. The camera is designed to
read number plates for a variety of reasons.
1. Too many fines from photographed offending vehicles are not displaying
the plates clearly, thus resulting in many infringement notices being sent
to the wrong address.
2. There has been an increase in the number of motorists spraying their
plates to avoid detection. This camera can also pick up these plates.

Roger
Sylvia Else - 29 Aug 2008 04:51 GMT
> I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday.
> Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing
> everyone to pass them in a single lane.

Were they causing a traffic jam?

Sylvia.
OzOne - 30 Aug 2008 05:34 GMT
>I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday.
>Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Thanks
>Greg

Number plate scanning.
Getting both unregistered cars and cars registered to drivers with
suspended licences to see who's driving it

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
RogerM - 30 Aug 2008 05:48 GMT
>>I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday.
>>Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Getting both unregistered cars and cars registered to drivers with
> suspended licences to see who's driving it

No Oz it's as I said earlier, purely for readability for the cameras which
are increasing around the countryside. Great money spinners for them but
they are having trouble with reading some of the plates as wrongful notices
are being sent to the wrong owners, let alone the ones they can't read.

Also technology also has allowed some unscrupulous owners to "spray" their
plate to prevent cameras reading them but is undetectable to the naked eye.
This is what they are doing.

It would take too long for the scanning to read and process then transfer
that info for checking as you said. All the cars would have to stop to do it
and that would be mayhem.

Roger
OzOne - 30 Aug 2008 07:34 GMT
>>>I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday.
>>>Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
>Roger

Is that so?
Damn, I wouldn't have thought that readability would be high on the
priority list.

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Marty - 30 Aug 2008 11:54 GMT
> It would take too long for the scanning to read and process then
> transfer that info for checking as you said. All the cars would have to
> stop to do it and that would be mayhem.

You are talking out of your arsehole as usual.

It takes just a few milliseconds to scan the plates and just a few
milliseconds to send the data. A database query is also exceptionally
fast. You would be looking at a latency for the whole show of a second or
less.
RogerM - 30 Aug 2008 23:54 GMT
>> It would take too long for the scanning to read and process then
>> transfer that info for checking as you said. All the cars would have to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> fast. You would be looking at a latency for the whole show of a second or
> less.

Bullshit! You have the audacity to tell me I'm talking out of my arsehole! I
don't give a f.ck whether you believe me or not. The question was asked by
the OP, I made a phone call and that's the info I received. Now go back to
dreaming, you idiot!

Roger
Marty - 31 Aug 2008 02:34 GMT
> Bullshit! You have the audacity to tell me I'm talking out of my
> arsehole! I don't give a f.ck whether you believe me or not. The
> question was asked by the OP, I made a phone call and that's the info I
> received. Now go back to dreaming, you idiot!
>
> Roger

If you didn't give a f.ck, you wouldn't have responded in such a
defensive manner.  

Who did you make a call to? The local village user car lot manager? Go
back to your dreams of self importance.
OzOne - 31 Aug 2008 02:43 GMT
>> Bullshit! You have the audacity to tell me I'm talking out of my
>> arsehole! I don't give a f.ck whether you believe me or not. The
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>If you didn't give a f.ck, you wouldn't have responded in such a
>defensive manner.  

Defensive?
He walked up and smacked your face!

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Marty - 31 Aug 2008 03:04 GMT
> Defensive?
> He walked up and smacked your face!

I think is bitter because he has missed his real calling in life. He
could have been a star at Barnum and Baily, billed as "The Talking Anus".
OzOne - 31 Aug 2008 03:15 GMT
>> Defensive?
>> He walked up and smacked your face!
>
>I think is bitter because he has missed his real calling in life. He
>could have been a star at Barnum and Baily, billed as "The Talking Anus".

Ahh better than just being an aresehole like you eh.

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
DAvid - 31 Aug 2008 04:03 GMT
>> Defensive?
>> He walked up and smacked your face!
>
> I think is bitter because he has missed his real calling in life. He
> could have been a star at Barnum and Baily, billed as "The Talking Anus".

Perhaps RogerM was right afterall!

http://www.ics.mq.edu.au/~len/preprint/hamey-dicta05-automatic.pdf

Depending upon the colours used in the plate and the
position of the plate within the frame, the glyphs on the
plate may visually merge with the frame itself, e.g.
figure 1(g,j). This makes segmentation of the glyphs
difficult, particularly if a long stroke belonging to a
character is merged with the adjacent frame. Figure
1(g) shows an example where the horizontal stroke of
the digit '2' visually merges with the frame.
In addition to frames, Australian conditions allow
the plate to be covered with a transparent material. A
popular frame design incorporates a cover with thin
black horizontal lines. If the plate uses black lettering,
the lines visually join the plate glyphs together into a
single image region. If the plate uses a black
background, the lines visually segment the glyphs. The
human observer is not distracted by these features, but
an automated system must explicitly deal with them.
Some Australian must display an additional plate

DAVO
Athol - 31 Aug 2008 04:06 GMT
>> Defensive?
>> He walked up and smacked your face!

> I think is bitter because he has missed his real calling in life. He
> could have been a star at Barnum and Baily, billed as "The Talking Anus".

And here's why I plonked oz ages ago, too.

Clue: If you want confirmation that you're right about something, if
oz claims that you're wrong, that's confirmation that you're right.

He spends a lot of time supporting woger when woger is wrong...

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

OzOne - 31 Aug 2008 08:54 GMT
>And here's why I plonked oz ages ago, too.
>
>Clue: If you want confirmation that you're right about something, if
>oz claims that you're wrong, that's confirmation that you're right.
>
>He spends a lot of time supporting woger when woger is wrong...

Ummmmmm Arsehole, You're inventing again.

OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Athol - 31 Aug 2008 03:36 GMT
>> Bullshit! You have the audacity to tell me I'm talking out of my
>> arsehole! I don't give a f.ck whether you believe me or not. The
>> question was asked by the OP, I made a phone call and that's the info I
>> received. Now go back to dreaming, you idiot!

> If you didn't give a f.ck, you wouldn't have responded in such a
> defensive manner.  

> Who did you make a call to? The local village user car lot manager? Go
> back to your dreams of self importance.

Someone who hasn't got a clue.  :-)

I actually saw a review of this camera system on the nightly news around
the time that it was introduced in NSW a couple of years ago.

Here is a bit more reading for those who don't believe:

First, I googled "unregistered vehicle camera" (without the quotes), and
this was one of the first matches:

http://www.caslon.com.au/anprnote.htm#analysis

Note the "5 seconds" quoted for UK systems in the 4th paragraph.  That
refers to a system in place before that article was written...

Then scroll down to the next section "applications" and note the 3rd and
4th items in the list.

Sound familiar?

Now that I had the term "automatic number plate recognition", I stuck
that into google, which found the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition
Note that in the "components" section, a figure of around 250ms is quoted
for a roadside system...  :-)

In police cars, using vehicle mounted cameras:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/police-cars-get-hightech-boost/2007/08/14/
1186857476490.html

"the number plate recognition system could check up to 9,000 vehicle
registrations in a shift."

I also found this from NSW parliament:
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/PARLMENT/hansArt.nsf/V3Key/LC20061115015
Sounds entirely believable.  Brighton-le-Sands, presumably.  Ignore
unregistered vehicles while concentrating on cars driven by known hoons...

What the Australian Privacy Foundation thinks of it:
http://www.privacy.org.au/Papers/ANPR-0803.html

Now you know why I and a few others have plonked Roger and don't read any
of his drivel.

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Toby Ponsenby - 31 Aug 2008 03:52 GMT
> What the Australian Privacy Foundation thinks of it:
> http://www.privacy.org.au/Papers/ANPR-0803.html

And for those not bothering to follow the link, the important bits are
here:

5. As commonly practised, and as supported by currently available
technologies, ANPR represents a gross privacy intrusion, and in some
jurisdictions breaches privacy law, in the following ways:

   * it involves arbitrary collection of personal data not for a
specific, defined purpose to which it is clearly relevant, but
opportunistically and for vague purposes
   * it generates a very large database of personal data, containing:
         o registration data
         o one set ? but very probably multiple sets ? of:
               + the date and time of sighting
               + the location
               + the direction of movement
   * the database can be used to draw inferences and generate
suspicions
   * the database is a 'honeypot' that attracts attention from many
organisations for many purposes, resulting in 'scope creep'
   * the database is impossible to protect against unauthorised access,
resulting in leakage of content

6. As commonly practised, and as supported by currently available
technologies, ANPR is a mass surveillance technique and breaches the
human right of liberty of movement (UDHR 13.1, ICCPR 12.1). More
specifically, with conventional ANPR:

   * an unknown proportion of the large data-holdings is unreliable,
and there is no simple or inexpensive way of sifting the accurate from
the inaccurate
   * suspicions can be readily generated, some of which are reasonable
and some of which are not, and there is no simple or inexpensive way of
sifting the reasonable from the unreasonable
   * embarrassment is created for law-abiding citizens who are
intercepted on the basis of incorrect data and unreasonable suspicion
   * danger is created for law-abiding citizens who are intercepted by
a law enforcement officer who has been given wrong information about the
possible dangerousness of the vehicle's occupants
   * the deterrent effect on miscreants appears unlikely to be all that
great
   * the unjustified chilling effect on law-abiding citizens appears
likely to be much greater than the deterrent effect on miscreants. This
applies especially to the many categories of persons at risk, including
victims of domestic violence, protected witnesses, celebrities, and
undercover law enforcement operatives

7. The practice of ANPR can readily become arbitrary interference by law
enforcement officers, in such ways as the following:

   * undue interception of false-positives
   * misunderstandings, unpleasantness and altercations between
officers and vehicle-occupants
   * further actions in relation to the intercepted vehicle, such as
roadworthiness inspections, bookings for minor transgressions (e.g.
broken light-covers and mirrors), and search on the off-chance of
finding infringing materials such as drugs
   * further actions in relation to the driver, such as delay,
questioning and search
   * further actions in relation to other vehicle occupants, such as
delay, questioning and search

8. The effects of the practice of ANPR on the public reputation of law
enforcement agencies and individuals can be positive, in that they will
be seen to be active, and to be effective; but run a great risk of being
seriously negative, in that they will be seen to be intrusive into the
activities of law-abiding citizens, and a key part of a 'police state'
apparatus that gathers vast quantities of information about people's
movements.

9. An alternative approach to ANPR addresses many of these issues. The
'blacklist in camera' design involves:

   * release from the on-site camera device of only those detections
that match to the current 'blacklist' of registration plates that are
being sought
   * certified non-accessibility and non-recording of any personal data
other than that arising under the above circumstances
   * substantial controls over the download of the blacklist to the
device and the maintenance of the blacklist
   * substantial controls over the quality of data used to prepare the
blacklist, and exclusion of sources of data that are of insufficient
quality

10. Considerable commitment and investment are required in order to
implement the alternative approach to ANPR in the face of the momentum
that has been achieved in some countries overseas by the orthodox,
grossly privacy-invasive form of ANPR.

11. It is vital that ANPR projects be conducted in a transparent manner,
including published information, consultation, privacy impact
assessment, and published results.

12. It is vital that Parliaments expressly preclude inappropriate
designs for uses of ANPR, and expressly authorise appropriate designs
for and uses of it.
Kwyjibo - 01 Sep 2008 01:56 GMT
>> What the Australian Privacy Foundation thinks of it:
>> http://www.privacy.org.au/Papers/ANPR-0803.html
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 5. As commonly practised, and as supported by currently available
> technologies, ANPR represents a gross privacy intrusion,

That's a lie. It doesn't collect any information that would allow you to
identify a *person*.

>  and in some
> jurisdictions breaches privacy law,

Not in Aus.

> in the following ways:
>
>    * it involves arbitrary collection of personal data

Lie. There's nothing 'personal' about it.

> not for a
> specific, defined purpose to which it is clearly relevant, but
> opportunistically and for vague purposes

So do freeway traffic cameras......

>    * it generates a very large database of personal data, containing:
>          o registration data
>          o one set ? but very probably multiple sets ? of:
>                + the date and time of sighting
>                + the location
>                + the direction of movement

Hmmm. Nothing there that would allow the identification of a *person*.
Where's the breach of privacy?

>    * the database can be used to draw inferences and generate
> suspicions

So can CCTV, credit card transactions, phone bills, electricity bills, tax
returns............

>    * the database is a 'honeypot' that attracts attention from many
> organisations for many purposes, resulting in 'scope creep'

Oh FFS. This is getting more ridiculous by the minute.

>    * the database is impossible to protect against unauthorised access,
> resulting in leakage of content

Lie.

> 6. As commonly practised, and as supported by currently available
> technologies, ANPR is a mass surveillance technique and breaches the
> human right of liberty of movement (UDHR 13.1, ICCPR 12.1).

Bullshit. "Liberty of movement" refers to having the freedom to move without
harassment. It says nothing about who is allowed to monitor that movement.

<rest of the silly sh.t snipped>

Do you even read the crap you quote Toby? It'll be really quite sad if you
respond that you do........

Signature

Kwyj.

Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 03:45 GMT
NSW Police have really started intensively using these Automatic
Number Plate Recognition road-blocks in many places in Sydney.

Two weeks ago, they used it on a Friday night in Newtown (NSW), and
pulled over 10 unregistered/suspended rego cars.  It was in the paper

Something really needs to be done about this abuse of NSW Police
power....
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 03:47 GMT
Here is a sample of NSW Police Automatic Number Plate Recognition
vehicles, scanning number plates:

http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html
http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665965.html
http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/c1491748.html
the_dawggie - 01 Sep 2008 04:26 GMT
> Here is a sample of NSW Police Automatic Number Plate Recognition
> vehicles, scanning number plates:
>
> http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html
> http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665965.html
> http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/c1491748.html

Well lets get to a stage of the UK where everything is watched.

I don't want to leave my apartment these days. Too much watching,
no privacy. Orwell comes to mind.

Signature

Kipland Christopher Dawggie.

Pit - 01 Sep 2008 04:32 GMT
> > Here is a sample of NSW Police Automatic Number Plate Recognition
> > vehicles, scanning number plates:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> --
> Kipland Christopher Dawggie.

The community will perhaps be safer if you stay indoors :) Sell the
vehicle

But  reckon more  cameras protecting the streets as in UK is a GREAT
thing
for the city types
phil_herring@yahoo.com.au - 01 Sep 2008 06:14 GMT
> But  reckon more  cameras protecting the streets as in UK is a GREAT
> thing for the city types

Unfortunately, the huge number of CCTV cameras in UK towns does almost
nothing for crime, either by its prevention or in terms of catching
criminals. It is, however, a good example of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theatre

-- Phil
Pit - 01 Sep 2008 13:37 GMT
On Sep 1, 1:14 pm, "phil_herr...@yahoo.com.au"
<phil_herr...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> > But  reckon more  cameras protecting the streets as in UK is a GREAT
> > thing for the city types
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -- Phil

G:day Phil , while I agree with most of the examples in your ref site
Such as the predominance  of a culture of fear  being useless at the
best and worse  wasting intel and police time
CCTV  is bloody good evidence   (at times) But even then that can be
tainted  with aforethought .
Example a few bouncers and crowd control folks I used to examine
came from a few schools where it was  taught to act for the CCTV  such
as  hands up
act in a non threatening manner etc but really mouth off at what was
essentially a pre chosen target    so sound capture is also
important .

But I am unashamedly a pro cctv advocate . as well as sting
operations  (filmed of course)  where soem box head  spots a sting
vehicle /person /opportunity and gets nabbed by state or fed plod

Very complex  subject  but feel thwarting such criminality by use of
21st century  kit  is just trying to keep up with the crims ( who are
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ) ahead of  the other side any way . The zoo is
taking over I assure you.
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 05:39 GMT
: > Here is a sample of NSW Police Automatic Number Plate Recognition
: > vehicles, scanning number plates:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
: I don't want to leave my apartment these days. Too much watching,
: no privacy. Orwell comes to mind.

Its really quite simple. Dont break the laws, nothing to worry about.

Whats the problem? I mean to say that should one of these unregistered vehicles run into yours
theres no medical insurance for you or your family, hell if hes got no rego hes got no 3rd party, no
property insurance etc etc. Get them off the road by any means I say.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 06:22 GMT
Hello.

> should one of these unregistered vehicles run into yours
> theres no medical insurance for you or your family,

Yes, there is.

In NSW, there is always medical coverage in all situations where a
motor vehicle has hit a human being.

It's called the "Nominal Defendant":

http://www.maa.nsw.gov.au/default.aspx?MenuID=111

Basically, the NSW Government picks a random insurer "out of a hat" to
pay for medical costs.
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 06:36 GMT
: Hello.
:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
: Basically, the NSW Government picks a random insurer "out of a hat" to
: pay for medical costs.

So why bother with Compulsary insurance if you know your covered anyway?

Id say that theres a bit more to it than that.
jonz - 01 Sep 2008 06:58 GMT
> : Hello.
> :
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Id say that theres a bit more to it than that.

     the reply for when you don`t really have one........
Atheist Chaplain - 01 Sep 2008 07:09 GMT
> : Hello.
> :
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Id say that theres a bit more to it than that.

because it reduces the burden on the public purse!

Signature

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg

Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 07:22 GMT
: > : Hello.
: > :
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
:
: because it reduces the burden on the public purse!

f.ck the Public Purse, its either all pay or noone pays.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 07:38 GMT
Hello.

> f.ck the Public Purse, its either all pay or noone pays.

Correct.

That's why they make it the law.  It is impossible to register a car
in NSW without this compulsory third-party insurance.

The Nominal Defendant is the backup for the minority of lawbreakers.
It ensure no poor innocent pedestrian suffers as a result of
lawbreakers' negligence.

The majority of people abide by the law.

I'm sure the NSW Government one would see changes in the law if the
"minority of lawbreakers" became the "majority of lawbreakers".
Athol - 01 Sep 2008 08:02 GMT
> The Nominal Defendant is the backup for the minority of lawbreakers.
> It ensure no poor innocent pedestrian suffers as a result of
> lawbreakers' negligence.

IIRC, the insurance companies are also entitled to attempt to extract
*full* costs from the offender *after* paying out.

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Pit - 01 Sep 2008 13:39 GMT
> : "Scotty" <scot...@warnmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> f.ck the Public Purse, its either all pay or noone pays.

You selfish prick
Scotty - 02 Sep 2008 07:29 GMT
On Sep 1, 2:22 pm, "Scotty" <scot...@warnmail.com> wrote:
> "Atheist Chaplain" <abu...@cia.gov> wrote in messagenews:g9g0v6$30o$1@aioe.org...
> : "Scotty" <scot...@warnmail.com> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> f.ck the Public Purse, its either all pay or noone pays.

:You selfish prick

Why you say fella?

Just because I think that all should be treated equal?

Or just that fuckwits like you should be shot, shat on and minced to feed sharks?
Pit - 02 Sep 2008 08:37 GMT
> On Sep 1, 2:22 pm, "Scotty" <scot...@warnmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Or just that fuckwits like you should be shot, shat on and minced to feed sharks?

Hang on  . I am fond of sharks  ( no not family law court lawyers)
the  ones in the oggen .
Thus I have far too much respect for the creatures to expect them to
dine out on me .
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 07:15 GMT
Hello.

> So why bother with Compulsary insurance if you know your covered anyway?

"Nominal Defendant" in NSW only covers human damage.  An insurance
company *always* pays for any human injuries caused by a vehicle in
NSW.

Compulsory Insurance covers property, fire and theft.

> Id say that theres a bit more to it than that.

Nope, that's all there is to it.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 07:16 GMT
Hello.

> Compulsory Insurance covers property, fire and theft.

I meant "Comprehensive Insurance covers property, fire & theft".
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 07:26 GMT
: Hello.
:
: > Compulsory Insurance covers property, fire and theft.
:
: I meant "Comprehensive Insurance covers property, fire & theft".

Umm, yeah it does everywhere, but you dont have comprehensive insurance if your cars unregistered do
you.  Thats in the fine print.  Actually the fine print on most insurance policies is scarey, almost
completely indemnities the company from payout.
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 07:24 GMT
: Hello.
:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:
: Compulsory Insurance covers property, fire and theft.

Not in Queensland it doesnt!
Your compulsary insurance doesnt cover any property damage/theft/fire unless you take out third
party property insurance.

: > Id say that theres a bit more to it than that.
:
: Nope, that's all there is to it.

Well, unless they have changed the laws in Qld recently you guys must have it sweet down there.

Does your compulsary insurance (as part of your yearly rego) cover property damage does it?
Athol - 01 Sep 2008 08:08 GMT
> Does your compulsary insurance (as part of your yearly rego) cover
> property damage does it?

No.  He f.cked up.

Mind you, IMO it should.  CTP, which the insurance companies are not *allowed*
to refuse to provide if they want to offer it at all, should cover everything
that TPPD covers.  The reason why it won't happen is that a lot of companies
don't want to insure stuff like modified cars but will do CTP on them, and if
CTP covered everything that TPPD does, a lot of people would walk away from
comprehensive insurance.

Signature

Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>   Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Toby Ponsenby - 01 Sep 2008 07:46 GMT