Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / September 2008
Police check catching quite a few motorists
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gregori - 29 Aug 2008 03:42 GMT I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday. Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing everyone to pass them in a single lane. as I approached the unmarked cop car (dark tinted windows) in the centre lane mounted on a tripod beside the car was what looked similar to a small radar device. Cylindrical in shape and was pointed down wards at an angle towards the front engine compartment of each car that passed by.
As we were only travelling at a few KMs/hr it was obviously not a speed check. The driver in front of me was pulled over and there was probably 3 or 4 other vehicles being booked at the time. Probably 5 cop cars and twice as many police.
Any ideas what they were doing/checking? Thanks Greg
 Signature gregori ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
jackbadger56 - 29 Aug 2008 04:08 GMT On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au> wrote:
> I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday. > Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > gregori > ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com** Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking unregistered cars.
the_dawggie - 29 Aug 2008 04:22 GMT > On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking > unregistered cars. RBT? could be unregoed vehicles. That's just down a road from me.
I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put on whatever show they like it seems, just because they can.
Atheist Chaplain - 29 Aug 2008 04:26 GMT On Aug 29, 1:08 pm, jackbadger56 <castl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking > unregistered cars. RBT? could be unregoed vehicles. That's just down a road from me.
I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put on whatever show they like it seems, just because they can.
==============================================
if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ?? Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)
 Signature "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." Don Hirschberg
the_dawggie - 29 Aug 2008 04:35 GMT > On Aug 29, 1:08 pm, jackbadger56 <castl...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ?? > Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-) They are legal, however Athol is jumping up and down wanting to issue a G092 on them to make them RTA legal.
No, not so much that, however I don't like people poking into my life. If I don't disturb/damage others I don't expect them to interrupt my life. If I do damage someone else or their property then I'll take responsibility for it. That said, yes motor vehicles must have a current rego, and drivers a current license.
RainbowWarrior - 29 Aug 2008 07:21 GMT On Aug 29, 1:26 pm, "Atheist Chaplain" <abu...@cia.gov> wrote:
> "the_dawggie" <the_dawg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ?? > Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-) They are legal, however Athol is jumping up and down wanting to issue a G092 on them to make them RTA legal.
No, not so much that, however I don't like people poking into my life. If I don't disturb/damage others I don't expect them to interrupt my life. If I do damage someone else or their property then I'll take responsibility for it. That said, yes motor vehicles must have a current rego, and drivers a current license.
And we all know that if you were on the recieving end of an incident caused by the average 20yo clown with mods legal or not you could trust them to take responsibility for yourr injuries and damgaes?
Athol - 29 Aug 2008 08:25 GMT >> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ?? >> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-)
> They are legal, however Athol is jumping up and down > wanting to issue a G092 on them to make them RTA > legal. The vehicle is not legal. It is, by definition, defective due to the absence of an engineering ccertificate. It's only that it has not been inspected and issued with a defect notice.
Of course, if you move to QLD, you won't be able to establish rego up there without it being certified. Most of the time, if it has already been certified in NSW and it's shown on the rego papers, it'll be accepted in QLD without requiring a blue QLD mod plate...
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
Daryl Walford - 29 Aug 2008 09:15 GMT >>> if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ?? >>> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > absence of an engineering ccertificate. It's only that it has not > been inspected and issued with a defect notice. Since we are speaking about engineering certificates do we need one for fitting a 4AGZE into a AE86? The replacement engine is the same capacity as the original and bolts straight in although the original engine had 58kw and the new one has 123kw. It also has a T series rear axle with a TRD LSD and disc brakes.
Daryl
Athol - 29 Aug 2008 12:03 GMT > Since we are speaking about engineering certificates do we need one for > fitting a 4AGZE into a AE86? > The replacement engine is the same capacity as the original and bolts > straight in although the original engine had 58kw and the new one has 123kw. But it is also supercharged and may be designed to comply with a different emissions rule (either Australian or overseas). Even bolting a turbo or supercharger onto an original engine (eg a gutless Toyota 3L diesel engine with a turbo that takes it from totally gutless to boringly slow :-) ) is required to be certified. In all cases, unless the exhaust system is the original system for the new engine, which is known to comply with the right noise ADR for the year of the vehicle, it'll need a noise test.
With a known emission complying engine being dropped into a car, it still has to be engineered but doesn't need emission testing (or smoke testing, in the case of filthy pre-emission diesels).
> It also has a T series rear axle with a TRD LSD and disc brakes. If they weren't an original option on that model in Australia, they need to be certified.
That's the case for NSW at least. Your mileage may vary. :-)
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
Daryl Walford - 29 Aug 2008 13:17 GMT >> Since we are speaking about engineering certificates do we need one for >> fitting a 4AGZE into a AE86? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > original system for the new engine, which is known to comply with the right > noise ADR for the year of the vehicle, it'll need a noise test. You confirmed what I already thought, the car is a 1983 and the engine is a 1992 or 1993 so I assume we have to comply with the emission rules that applied at the time the engine was built.
> With a known emission complying engine being dropped into a car, it still > has to be engineered but doesn't need emission testing (or smoke testing, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That's the case for NSW at least. Your mileage may vary. :-) AFAIK the rules are much the same.
Daryl
Athol - 29 Aug 2008 14:08 GMT > You confirmed what I already thought, the car is a 1983 and the engine > is a 1992 or 1993 so I assume we have to comply with the emission rules > that applied at the time the engine was built. Yep.
> AFAIK the rules are much the same. AFAIK, NSW, QLD and VIC have all not adopted the national code of practice (AKA dogs breakfast). The older separate rule books, although clearly separately written, are more consistent with each other than with the new NCOP that was written by taking chunks from the various state and territory rules and trying to fit them together...
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
jackbadger56 - 29 Aug 2008 04:35 GMT > On Aug 29, 1:08 pm, jackbadger56 <castl...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ?? Could be be scared of one or more of many things, such as........ # - they're going to rort him of his million$ # - the baton-waver might scratch the 'lux (it's no ordinary Hilux, but a 'lux Deluxe!) # - he may be asked to do a reverse park into the booking bay # - a derogatory comment from the booking officer might just send him over the edge # - questions may be asked as to why he's driving in the neeyoooooood!!!
;-p
> Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-) > > -- > "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." > Don Hirschberg the_dawggie - 29 Aug 2008 04:55 GMT > > "the_dawggie" <the_dawg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > # - questions may be asked as to why he's driving in the > neeyoooooood!!! I can reverse it or drive forward without a scratch on either bars to within a cm. The only time I was not paying attention, knocked rubber strip from driver's door - there is a 1cm scratch. Reversing into a f.cked up design of a car park got a slight scratch again 1cm (again no dent and again no damage to galvaneealing). I'm doing OK for an almost 19 yo vehicle that looks new with 230,000 km on it.
A 5+ metre long vehicle you have to think about in parking garages.
jackbadger56 - 29 Aug 2008 05:24 GMT > > > "the_dawggie" <the_dawg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > A 5+ metre long vehicle you have to think about in parking > garages. Luv ya, Dawg! ;-p
Noddy - 29 Aug 2008 05:50 GMT > if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ?? > Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-) And defective brakes.
The sooner it's put off the road the better for everyone around him.
-- Regards, Noddy.
veritas - 29 Aug 2008 06:23 GMT > I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put > on whatever show they like it seems, just because they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > if your not breaking the law, why are you scared ?? > Oh that's right, your car has illegal mods :-) http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/28/law-prof-and-cop-agr.html
Did you catch this from someones recent post (can't recall who/where tho)?
Quite good, I thought.
Atheist Chaplain - 29 Aug 2008 06:56 GMT >> I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put >> on whatever show they like it seems, just because they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Quite good, I thought. I'll have a watch when I get home :-) Thanks
 Signature "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." Don Hirschberg
RainbowWarrior - 29 Aug 2008 07:25 GMT >> I'm scared to drive anywere these days. Police can put >> on whatever show they like it seems, just because they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Quite good, I thought. Yep, better not to even ring them if you are being attacked or have your house broken into or some idiot rams your car off the road and drives off, incase you get locked up and charged........................
^Tems^ - 29 Aug 2008 04:34 GMT >> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > on whatever show they like it seems, just because they > can. Best you walk to the local shop to buy the tin foil for your next hat
Sylvia Else - 29 Aug 2008 05:10 GMT > On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking > unregistered cars. Added aus.legal
It appears to me that the police would have no power to erect a road block for the purpose of finding people using unregistered cars. It would have to be for something more serious. Though if they detect unregistered cars in the process, they'd no doubt take action against the drivers.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/leara2002451/s37.html
Sylvia.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 03:51 GMT > > On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking > > unregistered cars. Here is an example of NSW Police abusing their power by using Automatic Number Plate Recognition vehicles to check number plates & pull over unregistered drivers in NSW:
http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/c1491748.html
http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html
TomTom - 01 Sep 2008 03:56 GMT >>> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html In what specific way do you say that the NSW police are abusing their powers?
Sylvia Else - 01 Sep 2008 04:00 GMT >>> On Aug 29, 12:42 pm, gregori <gregori.3ev...@no-mx.phorums.com.au> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html You apparently replied to my posting, in which I raised a doubt about the legality, but the specific aspect I was focussing on was the road block.
I can't see any legal grounds for objecting to the situations you've cited. Indeed, I don't see any non-legal ground, provided no records were kept about vehicles that were not identified as being unregistered or otherwise of interest to the police.
Sylvia.
Toby Ponsenby - 01 Sep 2008 07:41 GMT > I can't see any legal grounds for objecting to the situations you've > cited. Indeed, I don't see any non-legal ground, provided no records > were kept about vehicles that were not identified as being unregistered > or otherwise of interest to the police. Your proviso is utterly f.cked. There is absolutely no way that the material checked and used in the checking has been deleted/removed. Why? Because there's no legislation to make the bastards delete/remove it. So they didn't, and they won't.
 Signature Toby
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -Groucho Marx.
Athol - 01 Sep 2008 07:52 GMT In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> Your proviso is utterly f.cked. > There is absolutely no way that the material checked and used in the > checking has been deleted/removed. > Why? > Because there's no legislation to make the bastards delete/remove it. > So they didn't, and they won't. Actually, there is another reason why it *has* to be retained...
Anti-corruption rules. Every enquiry of the numberplate database has to be traceable to who/when/where/why to prevent corrupt cops from looking stuff up for their mates, etc..
Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates of vehicles that were not flagged for attention. :-(
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
Sylvia Else - 01 Sep 2008 08:07 GMT > In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates > of vehicles that were not flagged for attention. :-( That's a tad simplistic. There is no anti-corruption purpose to be served by recording the identity of the person making a query when the query is made on the person's behalf by an automatic number plate reading system, and the response is that the vehicle is not of interest.
Flagging the fact that each number has been queried, and by whom, even in that common case, would create a significant system load - for which read cost.
Sylvia.
Toby Ponsenby - 01 Sep 2008 13:20 GMT >> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Sylvia. Data cost is at best negligible, and are decreasing. The records are also permanent, just like we're hearing Facebook details and of course Usenet posts. It's easy to submerge data holding costs in the monster development costs associated with systems like this - not to mention purchase costs. If I didn't know better I'd say most IT projects are akin to money laundering:-)
 Signature Toby
FDA approves radiation of spinach, warns that if eaten in large quantities, the irradiated spinach may cause blindness in one eye, and huge forearm tumors. - Drew Curtis from fark.com August 2008
Kwyjibo - 01 Sep 2008 13:35 GMT >>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Data cost is at best negligible, LOL.
> and are decreasing. Wrong. Most large organisations are moving away from local SCSI storage to fibre attached SAN storage, which works out a lot more expensive. Add in a replicated solution for disaster recovery and the cost explodes even further. One organisation I was recently dealing with estimated their cost of tier 1 storage at AU$11 per gigabyte per month.That is not even close to what any sane person would consider 'negligible'.
> The records are also permanent, Wrong again. Data storage has a substantial cost associated with it. All organisations that I have dealt with (and I deal with very large corporates and govt departments on this topic on a daily basis) are loath to keep any information any longer than is legally required.
> just like we're hearing Facebook details > and of course Usenet posts. > It's easy to submerge data holding costs in the monster development > costs associated with systems like this Wrong again. You obviously know SFA about the way such projects are funded.
> - not to mention purchase costs. > If I didn't know better You clearly don't.
> I'd say most IT projects are akin to money > laundering:-) Stick to folding up tin foil hats, dopey.
 Signature Kwyj.
Toby Ponsenby - 01 Sep 2008 15:38 GMT >>>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> >> Data cost is at best negligible,
> LOL. First Genius retort.. from ...ahh - my very own fuckwit shill stalker!!!
Ripper.
needless linking to the rabit shite over at aus.legal removed.
>> and are decreasing. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of tier 1 storage at AU$11 per gigabyte per month.That is not even close to > what any sane person would consider 'negligible'. RIGHT, fuckwit shill stalker. If the storage "most" "large" organisations were moving towards a different storage meme, it would certainly NOT cost more. No matter what. Evidently the organisation you were recently dealing with was miss-advised. You have anything to do with that?
>> The records are also permanent, > > Wrong again. Prove it.
> Data storage has a substantial cost associated with it. All organisations > that I have dealt with (and I deal with very large corporates and govt > departments on this topic on a daily basis) are loath to keep any > information any longer than is legally required. Fucken HERO fuckwit shill stalker!!! Loath? Wow - WhataWort!! But we're talking about law 'enforcement' turkeys here, stupid - not banks, retailers and telcos with huge amounts of utterly useless data which is purely that once it's been mined/pattern-matched, sold off or given to law enforcement - but hang on, we're taking about law enforcement agencies here.. get it.. Nope. Not a chance.
>> just like we're hearing Facebook details >> and of course Usenet posts. >> It's easy to submerge data holding costs in the monster development >> costs associated with systems like this > > Wrong again. You obviously know SFA about the way such projects are funded. What projects, fuckwit shill stalker? - Usenet, Facebook, Google?
>> - not to mention purchase costs. >> If I didn't know better > > You clearly don't. Stupid and unproven assertion - but so go on ... I know you will
>> I'd say most IT projects are akin to money >> laundering:-) > > Stick to folding up tin foil hats, dopey. eg - Westpac, $300,000,000 on an IT 'product ' than never say the light of day. Now that's Money Laundering. Tin Hat claim is as expected - you've got noting else - Of course it's possible you're a benefactor of the money laundering in some twisted way - and you've every right to protect you patch. Hell, you need to be because the shill payments have probably dropped through the floor lately, grasshopper, the public teat funding for your lot has been dropped to electoral expenses lately. Oh, and some donations - can't forget those - just another form of Shill payment, of course. Yeah, it Does Stick. Like sh.t to a blanket. Needless to say, calling Tin Hat is your stock fuckwit shill stalker routine, and it's as boring as batshit.
 Signature Toby
Olympic Games: The fervid activities of the shamelessly self-obsessed, brought to your living-room by shameless self-promoters. Bonus - it's paid for by the self-deluded.
Kwyjibo - 01 Sep 2008 16:07 GMT >>>>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > needless linking to the rabit shite over at aus.legal removed. Restored so they can have a laugh at your idiocy as well.
>>> and are decreasing. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If the storage "most" "large" organisations were moving towards a > different storage meme, it would certainly NOT cost more. Wrong, yet again.
> No matter what. Bullshit. People with a clue (that precludes you) are quite happy to pay more for the higher performance, availability, greater DR capability and flexibility that the more expensive storage brings.
If your silly sh.t is true, try explaining why sales of directly attached SCSI external storage arrays are through the floor, while sales for SAN vendors such as NetApp, EMC and HDS are growing at record levels.
> Evidently the organisation you were recently dealing with was > miss-advised. Evidently you don't have a clue.
> You have anything to do with that? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Prove it. You made the idiotic claim fuckwit - YOU prove it.
>> Data storage has a substantial cost associated with it. All organisations >> that I have dealt with (and I deal with very large corporates and govt [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Loath? Wow - WhataWort!! > But we're talking about law 'enforcement' turkeys here, stupid And what part of 'corporates and *govt departments*' are you having trouble comprehending? Maybe get a school kid to help you out with some of the big words (that's if their parents are actually stupid enough to let you anywhere near them)
> not > banks, retailers and telcos with huge amounts of utterly useless data > which is purely that once it's been mined/pattern-matched, sold off or > given to law enforcement - but hang on, we're taking about law > enforcement agencies here.. get it.. Nope. Not a chance. Yep. I sure do. Pity you completely fail to grasp the concept that data storage has a very high price attached to it.
>>> just like we're hearing Facebook details >>> and of course Usenet posts. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What projects, fuckwit shill stalker? - Usenet, Facebook, Google? Those, and the law enforcement projects you were referring to.
>>> - not to mention purchase costs. >>> If I didn't know better >> >> You clearly don't. > Stupid and unproven assertion - but so go on ... I know you will You've proven it yourself by making a stupid statement about data storage costs being negligible when you don't have a f.cking clue.
>>> I'd say most IT projects are akin to money >>> laundering:-) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > eg - Westpac, $300,000,000 on an IT 'product ' than never say the light > of day. Now that's Money Laundering. Ummmm. No. Not even close, stupid.
> Tin Hat claim is as expected - you've got noting else I don't need anything else. You're as silly as a bum full of smarties.
>- Of course it's > possible you're a benefactor of the money laundering in some twisted way Ahhh. Here we go with yet another mindless conspiracy theory. Have your meds run out again?
> - and you've every right to protect you patch. Hell, you need to be > because the shill payments have probably dropped through the floor > lately, grasshopper, the public teat funding for your lot My lot? Who do you imagine that to be?
> has been > dropped to electoral expenses lately. So who am I a shill for? The last time I checked, I hadn't mentioned who I work for, in what area I work, or who any of my customers have been.
> Oh, and some donations - can't > forget those - just another form of Shill payment, of course. > Yeah, it Does Stick. Like sh.t to a blanket. > Needless to say, calling Tin Hat is your stock fuckwit shill stalker > routine, and it's as boring as batshit. And you're clearly upset because it's true. Got any other brain-dead conspiracy theories for me to laugh at?
 Signature Kwyj.
terryc - 02 Sep 2008 02:52 GMT > If your silly sh.t is true, try explaining why sales of directly attached > SCSI external storage arrays are through the floor, while sales for SAN > vendors such as NetApp, EMC and HDS are growing at record levels. Fashion. 99% of this stuff is purchased by peeps suckered by marketing and you are not comparing apples with apples.
Care to tell us what is inside these boxen?
And to put that in a wider perspective, I recently trashed some "directly attached SCSI external storage arrays" that would have been about $20K each about 10 years ago and been top of the range.
Why?
Because to test them out, I needed to buy a scsi 5 cable that would costs $80+postage. As a SOHO, it was cheaper just to buy another SATA disk, of greater capacity, and mount it into the fileserver.
Why do I still have a file server with internally attched storage? Because I run a proper backup system and not a copy system which is what most people run. The backup system runs directly off the fileserver and thus does not impact the network for most of the files it backs up.
Which brings me back to the argument about cost of storage of tracking data. Cost is directly related to the demand and if it is high demand, then it is still run a highly configured SCSI based storage system. Lessor can be run on slower disks and stuff that is only used occassionally can be shipped off to other storae media; tape, CD or DVD for recovery when needed.
Kwyjibo - 02 Sep 2008 08:20 GMT >> If your silly sh.t is true, try explaining why sales of directly attached >> SCSI external storage arrays are through the floor, while sales for SAN >> vendors such as NetApp, EMC and HDS are growing at record levels. > > Fashion. Crap.
> 99% of this stuff is purchased by peeps suckered by marketing and > you are not comparing apples with apples. Umm. I'm comparing disk based storage with disk based storage.
> Care to tell us what is inside these boxen? You mean other than FC controllers, SPs, RAID controllers, load balancers etc.? Not much.
> And to put that in a wider perspective, I recently trashed some "directly > attached SCSI external storage arrays" that would have been about $20K > each about 10 years ago and been top of the range. > > Why? Because it's an archaic piece of sh.t that would more than likely be outperformed by a current consumer-grade SATA drive.
> Because to test them out, I needed to buy a scsi 5 cable that would > costs $80+postage. As a SOHO, it was cheaper just to buy another SATA > disk, of greater capacity, and mount it into the fileserver. > > Why do I still have a file server with internally attched storage? Because your disk i/o requirements don't justify enterprise storage.
> Because I run a proper backup system and not a copy system which is what > most people run. The backup system runs directly off the fileserver and > thus does not impact the network for most of the files it backs up. WTF? Are you saying that you back up to disk directly attached to the same server you are backing up? Welcome to 1995.........
> Which brings me back to the argument about cost of storage of tracking > data. Cost is directly related to the demand and if it is high demand, > then it is still run a highly configured SCSI based storage system. Lessor > can be run on slower disks and stuff that is only used occassionally can > be shipped off to other storae media; tape, CD or DVD for recovery when > needed. No one with any brains uses CD or DVD for any critical data i the enterprise space. Tape and disk are the primary technologies used ATM, usually fibre-attached for both. And they both have (not negligible) costs associated with them.
 Signature Kwyj.
Sylvia Else - 01 Sep 2008 14:38 GMT >>> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Data cost is at best negligible, and are decreasing. I wasn't thinking so much of the cost of storing it on the storage medium, as the cost of writing it to the medium.
Sylvia.
terryc - 01 Sep 2008 16:06 GMT > Flagging the fact that each number has been queried, and by whom, even > in that common case, would create a significant system load - for which > read cost. AFAIK, that has beenthe situation for a number of years. Vaguely remember a case where a plod was dismissed for stalking and part of the evidence was his looking up their vehicles in the database when he didn't have a legit reason for it.
Bernd Felsche - 01 Sep 2008 17:40 GMT >> Actually, there is another reason why it *has* to be retained...
>> Anti-corruption rules. Every enquiry of the numberplate database has to >> be traceable to who/when/where/why to prevent corrupt cops from looking >> stuff up for their mates, etc..
>> Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates >> of vehicles that were not flagged for attention. :-(
>That's a tad simplistic. There is no anti-corruption purpose to be >served by recording the identity of the person making a query when the >query is made on the person's behalf by an automatic number plate >reading system, and the response is that the vehicle is not of interest.
>Flagging the fact that each number has been queried, and by whom, even >in that common case, would create a significant system load - for which >read cost. Congratulations. You've identified one of the "drivers" of the nutty idea. Marketing.
 Signature /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Science is the belief in X against HTML mail | the ignorance of the experts. / \ and postings | -- Richard Feynman
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 08:08 GMT : In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: : [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates : of vehicles that were not flagged for attention. :-( Doesnt stop ya mtes from finding stuff though, it just means that they have to back it up with a plausible argument. One of the favourites seems to be QV- Suspicious person lurking around parked car and found not to be owner.
I have heard of some VERY dodgy reasons for looking up details. A mate wanted to buy a car but couldnt find its owner as every time he hung around they never showed and when he did leave it later they had gone so had a QV done and ended up buying the car. To this day he wont tell me what he said to its owner to how he found them as it wasnt them that drove it on a regular basis but thier partner. That could take some explaining if he was caught Id say.
jonz - 01 Sep 2008 09:31 GMT > In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates > of vehicles that were not flagged for attention. :-( crap
Bernd Felsche - 01 Sep 2008 17:37 GMT >In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>> There is absolutely no way that the material checked and used in the >> checking has been deleted/removed. >> Why? >> Because there's no legislation to make the bastards delete/remove it. >> So they didn't, and they won't.
>Actually, there is another reason why it *has* to be retained...
>Anti-corruption rules. Every enquiry of the numberplate database >has to be traceable to who/when/where/why to prevent corrupt cops >from looking stuff up for their mates, etc..
>Hence, they *can't* discard the information about looking up the plates >of vehicles that were not flagged for attention. :-( Then again; such data can be quarantined from use in other investigations.
And that is indeed the case in countries like Germany where systematic surveillance of the public is unconsitutional. Evidence from each investigation "falls through a trap-door". It cannot be used elsewhere. It is indeed unlawful to do a trawl for offences.
Unlike Australia, going for a half-hour drive in Germany shows that Police are actively stopping and dealing with stuff as it happens. They're not all hiding behind a mouse in a poorly-ventilated office.
There are also speed cameras ... but few Police forces take them seriously at all; because they've been recognized to have no significant road safety benefit. The cameras are deployed for political reasons; to provide revenue for local authorities; and to give the illusion of power to some.
 Signature /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Science is the belief in X against HTML mail | the ignorance of the experts. / \ and postings | -- Richard Feynman
B J Foster - 01 Sep 2008 20:12 GMT >> In aus.cars Toby Ponsenby <me@privacy.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Then again; such data can be quarantined from use in other > investigations. Can be, but is it?
> And that is indeed the case in countries like Germany where > systematic surveillance of the public is unconsitutional. > Evidence from each investigation "falls through a trap-door". > It cannot be used elsewhere. It is indeed unlawful to do a trawl for > offences. This is not Germany. We are a lot more complacent and officials being what they are will start using it.
> Unlike Australia, going for a half-hour drive in Germany shows that > Police are actively stopping and dealing with stuff as it happens. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > political reasons; to provide revenue for local authorities; and to > give the illusion of power to some. terryc - 01 Sep 2008 16:04 GMT
> Here is an example of NSW Police abusing their power by using > Automatic Number Plate Recognition vehicles to check number plates & > pull over unregistered drivers in NSW: when was the device fitted? and what is the nae of it?
Athol - 29 Aug 2008 08:38 GMT >> I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday. >> Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> angle towards >> the front engine compartment of each car that passed by.
>> As we were only travelling at a few KMs/hr it was obviously not a speed >> check. >> The driver in front of me was pulled over and there was probably 3 or 4 >> other vehicles being booked at the time. >> Probably 5 cop cars and twice as many police.
>> Any ideas what they were doing/checking?
> Might have been this new-fangled plate-reader in action; booking > unregistered cars. The description fits perfectly.
The camera takes a photo of the front of the vehicle and, using software similar to that used on the safe-t-(s)cam system, the system locates and reads the number plate. It is then automatically looked up on the police system and the RTA DRIVES registration system.
The camera only covers one lane of traffic at a time. It is not able to do multiple lanes, so the funnelling makes sense for its operation even if it doesn't make sense from a traffic flow POV.
The computer search will flag more than just unregistered and stolen vehicles. It will also flag intelligence on likely occupants of the vehicle in relation to all sorts of stuff including outstanding warrants, drug posession, drug or alcohol use whilst driving (DUI), posess stolen goods, etc..
When the computer tells the cops to stop a particular vehicle in the traffic stream, it also tells them all of the details of why...
While I don't like the fact that they're using it in a way that f.cks up traffic flow, I do like the fact that the cops are using this targetted approach rather than randomly picking on people for speeding.
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
RogerM - 30 Aug 2008 01:50 GMT >>> I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday. >>> Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > traffic flow, I do like the fact that the cops are using this targetted > approach rather than randomly picking on people for speeding. LOL, you have the cart b4 the horse again Athol. The camera is designed to read number plates for a variety of reasons. 1. Too many fines from photographed offending vehicles are not displaying the plates clearly, thus resulting in many infringement notices being sent to the wrong address. 2. There has been an increase in the number of motorists spraying their plates to avoid detection. This camera can also pick up these plates.
Roger
Sylvia Else - 29 Aug 2008 04:51 GMT > I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday. > Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing > everyone to pass them in a single lane. Were they causing a traffic jam?
Sylvia.
OzOne - 30 Aug 2008 05:34 GMT >I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday. >Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Thanks >Greg Number plate scanning. Getting both unregistered cars and cars registered to drivers with suspended licences to see who's driving it
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
RogerM - 30 Aug 2008 05:48 GMT >>I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday. >>Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Getting both unregistered cars and cars registered to drivers with > suspended licences to see who's driving it No Oz it's as I said earlier, purely for readability for the cameras which are increasing around the countryside. Great money spinners for them but they are having trouble with reading some of the plates as wrongful notices are being sent to the wrong owners, let alone the ones they can't read.
Also technology also has allowed some unscrupulous owners to "spray" their plate to prevent cameras reading them but is undetectable to the naked eye. This is what they are doing.
It would take too long for the scanning to read and process then transfer that info for checking as you said. All the cars would have to stop to do it and that would be mayhem.
Roger
OzOne - 30 Aug 2008 07:34 GMT >>>I was travelling along Gardeners Rd at Kingsford yesterday. >>>Its 3 lanes wide and the police had 2 of the lanes blocked forcing [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >Roger Is that so? Damn, I wouldn't have thought that readability would be high on the priority list.
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Marty - 30 Aug 2008 11:54 GMT > It would take too long for the scanning to read and process then > transfer that info for checking as you said. All the cars would have to > stop to do it and that would be mayhem. You are talking out of your arsehole as usual.
It takes just a few milliseconds to scan the plates and just a few milliseconds to send the data. A database query is also exceptionally fast. You would be looking at a latency for the whole show of a second or less.
RogerM - 30 Aug 2008 23:54 GMT >> It would take too long for the scanning to read and process then >> transfer that info for checking as you said. All the cars would have to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > fast. You would be looking at a latency for the whole show of a second or > less. Bullshit! You have the audacity to tell me I'm talking out of my arsehole! I don't give a f.ck whether you believe me or not. The question was asked by the OP, I made a phone call and that's the info I received. Now go back to dreaming, you idiot!
Roger
Marty - 31 Aug 2008 02:34 GMT > Bullshit! You have the audacity to tell me I'm talking out of my > arsehole! I don't give a f.ck whether you believe me or not. The > question was asked by the OP, I made a phone call and that's the info I > received. Now go back to dreaming, you idiot! > > Roger If you didn't give a f.ck, you wouldn't have responded in such a defensive manner.
Who did you make a call to? The local village user car lot manager? Go back to your dreams of self importance.
OzOne - 31 Aug 2008 02:43 GMT >> Bullshit! You have the audacity to tell me I'm talking out of my >> arsehole! I don't give a f.ck whether you believe me or not. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If you didn't give a f.ck, you wouldn't have responded in such a >defensive manner. Defensive? He walked up and smacked your face!
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Marty - 31 Aug 2008 03:04 GMT > Defensive? > He walked up and smacked your face! I think is bitter because he has missed his real calling in life. He could have been a star at Barnum and Baily, billed as "The Talking Anus".
OzOne - 31 Aug 2008 03:15 GMT >> Defensive? >> He walked up and smacked your face! > >I think is bitter because he has missed his real calling in life. He >could have been a star at Barnum and Baily, billed as "The Talking Anus". Ahh better than just being an aresehole like you eh.
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
DAvid - 31 Aug 2008 04:03 GMT >> Defensive? >> He walked up and smacked your face! > > I think is bitter because he has missed his real calling in life. He > could have been a star at Barnum and Baily, billed as "The Talking Anus". Perhaps RogerM was right afterall!
http://www.ics.mq.edu.au/~len/preprint/hamey-dicta05-automatic.pdf
Depending upon the colours used in the plate and the position of the plate within the frame, the glyphs on the plate may visually merge with the frame itself, e.g. figure 1(g,j). This makes segmentation of the glyphs difficult, particularly if a long stroke belonging to a character is merged with the adjacent frame. Figure 1(g) shows an example where the horizontal stroke of the digit '2' visually merges with the frame. In addition to frames, Australian conditions allow the plate to be covered with a transparent material. A popular frame design incorporates a cover with thin black horizontal lines. If the plate uses black lettering, the lines visually join the plate glyphs together into a single image region. If the plate uses a black background, the lines visually segment the glyphs. The human observer is not distracted by these features, but an automated system must explicitly deal with them. Some Australian must display an additional plate
DAVO
Athol - 31 Aug 2008 04:06 GMT >> Defensive? >> He walked up and smacked your face!
> I think is bitter because he has missed his real calling in life. He > could have been a star at Barnum and Baily, billed as "The Talking Anus". And here's why I plonked oz ages ago, too.
Clue: If you want confirmation that you're right about something, if oz claims that you're wrong, that's confirmation that you're right.
He spends a lot of time supporting woger when woger is wrong...
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
OzOne - 31 Aug 2008 08:54 GMT >And here's why I plonked oz ages ago, too. > >Clue: If you want confirmation that you're right about something, if >oz claims that you're wrong, that's confirmation that you're right. > >He spends a lot of time supporting woger when woger is wrong... Ummmmmm Arsehole, You're inventing again.
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Athol - 31 Aug 2008 03:36 GMT >> Bullshit! You have the audacity to tell me I'm talking out of my >> arsehole! I don't give a f.ck whether you believe me or not. The >> question was asked by the OP, I made a phone call and that's the info I >> received. Now go back to dreaming, you idiot!
> If you didn't give a f.ck, you wouldn't have responded in such a > defensive manner.
> Who did you make a call to? The local village user car lot manager? Go > back to your dreams of self importance. Someone who hasn't got a clue. :-)
I actually saw a review of this camera system on the nightly news around the time that it was introduced in NSW a couple of years ago.
Here is a bit more reading for those who don't believe:
First, I googled "unregistered vehicle camera" (without the quotes), and this was one of the first matches:
http://www.caslon.com.au/anprnote.htm#analysis
Note the "5 seconds" quoted for UK systems in the 4th paragraph. That refers to a system in place before that article was written...
Then scroll down to the next section "applications" and note the 3rd and 4th items in the list.
Sound familiar?
Now that I had the term "automatic number plate recognition", I stuck that into google, which found the wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition Note that in the "components" section, a figure of around 250ms is quoted for a roadside system... :-)
In police cars, using vehicle mounted cameras: http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/police-cars-get-hightech-boost/2007/08/14/ 1186857476490.html "the number plate recognition system could check up to 9,000 vehicle registrations in a shift."
I also found this from NSW parliament: http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/PARLMENT/hansArt.nsf/V3Key/LC20061115015 Sounds entirely believable. Brighton-le-Sands, presumably. Ignore unregistered vehicles while concentrating on cars driven by known hoons...
What the Australian Privacy Foundation thinks of it: http://www.privacy.org.au/Papers/ANPR-0803.html
Now you know why I and a few others have plonked Roger and don't read any of his drivel.
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
Toby Ponsenby - 31 Aug 2008 03:52 GMT > What the Australian Privacy Foundation thinks of it: > http://www.privacy.org.au/Papers/ANPR-0803.html And for those not bothering to follow the link, the important bits are here:
5. As commonly practised, and as supported by currently available technologies, ANPR represents a gross privacy intrusion, and in some jurisdictions breaches privacy law, in the following ways:
* it involves arbitrary collection of personal data not for a specific, defined purpose to which it is clearly relevant, but opportunistically and for vague purposes * it generates a very large database of personal data, containing: o registration data o one set ? but very probably multiple sets ? of: + the date and time of sighting + the location + the direction of movement * the database can be used to draw inferences and generate suspicions * the database is a 'honeypot' that attracts attention from many organisations for many purposes, resulting in 'scope creep' * the database is impossible to protect against unauthorised access, resulting in leakage of content
6. As commonly practised, and as supported by currently available technologies, ANPR is a mass surveillance technique and breaches the human right of liberty of movement (UDHR 13.1, ICCPR 12.1). More specifically, with conventional ANPR:
* an unknown proportion of the large data-holdings is unreliable, and there is no simple or inexpensive way of sifting the accurate from the inaccurate * suspicions can be readily generated, some of which are reasonable and some of which are not, and there is no simple or inexpensive way of sifting the reasonable from the unreasonable * embarrassment is created for law-abiding citizens who are intercepted on the basis of incorrect data and unreasonable suspicion * danger is created for law-abiding citizens who are intercepted by a law enforcement officer who has been given wrong information about the possible dangerousness of the vehicle's occupants * the deterrent effect on miscreants appears unlikely to be all that great * the unjustified chilling effect on law-abiding citizens appears likely to be much greater than the deterrent effect on miscreants. This applies especially to the many categories of persons at risk, including victims of domestic violence, protected witnesses, celebrities, and undercover law enforcement operatives
7. The practice of ANPR can readily become arbitrary interference by law enforcement officers, in such ways as the following:
* undue interception of false-positives * misunderstandings, unpleasantness and altercations between officers and vehicle-occupants * further actions in relation to the intercepted vehicle, such as roadworthiness inspections, bookings for minor transgressions (e.g. broken light-covers and mirrors), and search on the off-chance of finding infringing materials such as drugs * further actions in relation to the driver, such as delay, questioning and search * further actions in relation to other vehicle occupants, such as delay, questioning and search
8. The effects of the practice of ANPR on the public reputation of law enforcement agencies and individuals can be positive, in that they will be seen to be active, and to be effective; but run a great risk of being seriously negative, in that they will be seen to be intrusive into the activities of law-abiding citizens, and a key part of a 'police state' apparatus that gathers vast quantities of information about people's movements.
9. An alternative approach to ANPR addresses many of these issues. The 'blacklist in camera' design involves:
* release from the on-site camera device of only those detections that match to the current 'blacklist' of registration plates that are being sought * certified non-accessibility and non-recording of any personal data other than that arising under the above circumstances * substantial controls over the download of the blacklist to the device and the maintenance of the blacklist * substantial controls over the quality of data used to prepare the blacklist, and exclusion of sources of data that are of insufficient quality
10. Considerable commitment and investment are required in order to implement the alternative approach to ANPR in the face of the momentum that has been achieved in some countries overseas by the orthodox, grossly privacy-invasive form of ANPR.
11. It is vital that ANPR projects be conducted in a transparent manner, including published information, consultation, privacy impact assessment, and published results.
12. It is vital that Parliaments expressly preclude inappropriate designs for uses of ANPR, and expressly authorise appropriate designs for and uses of it.
Kwyjibo - 01 Sep 2008 01:56 GMT >> What the Australian Privacy Foundation thinks of it: >> http://www.privacy.org.au/Papers/ANPR-0803.html [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 5. As commonly practised, and as supported by currently available > technologies, ANPR represents a gross privacy intrusion, That's a lie. It doesn't collect any information that would allow you to identify a *person*.
> and in some > jurisdictions breaches privacy law, Not in Aus.
> in the following ways: > > * it involves arbitrary collection of personal data Lie. There's nothing 'personal' about it.
> not for a > specific, defined purpose to which it is clearly relevant, but > opportunistically and for vague purposes So do freeway traffic cameras......
> * it generates a very large database of personal data, containing: > o registration data > o one set ? but very probably multiple sets ? of: > + the date and time of sighting > + the location > + the direction of movement Hmmm. Nothing there that would allow the identification of a *person*. Where's the breach of privacy?
> * the database can be used to draw inferences and generate > suspicions So can CCTV, credit card transactions, phone bills, electricity bills, tax returns............
> * the database is a 'honeypot' that attracts attention from many > organisations for many purposes, resulting in 'scope creep' Oh FFS. This is getting more ridiculous by the minute.
> * the database is impossible to protect against unauthorised access, > resulting in leakage of content Lie.
> 6. As commonly practised, and as supported by currently available > technologies, ANPR is a mass surveillance technique and breaches the > human right of liberty of movement (UDHR 13.1, ICCPR 12.1). Bullshit. "Liberty of movement" refers to having the freedom to move without harassment. It says nothing about who is allowed to monitor that movement.
<rest of the silly sh.t snipped>
Do you even read the crap you quote Toby? It'll be really quite sad if you respond that you do........
 Signature Kwyj.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 03:45 GMT NSW Police have really started intensively using these Automatic Number Plate Recognition road-blocks in many places in Sydney.
Two weeks ago, they used it on a Friday night in Newtown (NSW), and pulled over 10 unregistered/suspended rego cars. It was in the paper
Something really needs to be done about this abuse of NSW Police power....
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 03:47 GMT Here is a sample of NSW Police Automatic Number Plate Recognition vehicles, scanning number plates:
http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665965.html http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/c1491748.html
the_dawggie - 01 Sep 2008 04:26 GMT > Here is a sample of NSW Police Automatic Number Plate Recognition > vehicles, scanning number plates: > > http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665961.html > http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/p49665965.html > http://midnorthcoastpolicevehicles.fotopic.net/c1491748.html Well lets get to a stage of the UK where everything is watched.
I don't want to leave my apartment these days. Too much watching, no privacy. Orwell comes to mind.
 Signature Kipland Christopher Dawggie.
Pit - 01 Sep 2008 04:32 GMT > > Here is a sample of NSW Police Automatic Number Plate Recognition > > vehicles, scanning number plates: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Kipland Christopher Dawggie. The community will perhaps be safer if you stay indoors :) Sell the vehicle
But reckon more cameras protecting the streets as in UK is a GREAT thing for the city types
phil_herring@yahoo.com.au - 01 Sep 2008 06:14 GMT > But reckon more cameras protecting the streets as in UK is a GREAT > thing for the city types Unfortunately, the huge number of CCTV cameras in UK towns does almost nothing for crime, either by its prevention or in terms of catching criminals. It is, however, a good example of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theatre
-- Phil
Pit - 01 Sep 2008 13:37 GMT On Sep 1, 1:14 pm, "phil_herr...@yahoo.com.au" <phil_herr...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > But reckon more cameras protecting the streets as in UK is a GREAT > > thing for the city types [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -- Phil G:day Phil , while I agree with most of the examples in your ref site Such as the predominance of a culture of fear being useless at the best and worse wasting intel and police time CCTV is bloody good evidence (at times) But even then that can be tainted with aforethought . Example a few bouncers and crowd control folks I used to examine came from a few schools where it was taught to act for the CCTV such as hands up act in a non threatening manner etc but really mouth off at what was essentially a pre chosen target so sound capture is also important .
But I am unashamedly a pro cctv advocate . as well as sting operations (filmed of course) where soem box head spots a sting vehicle /person /opportunity and gets nabbed by state or fed plod
Very complex subject but feel thwarting such criminality by use of 21st century kit is just trying to keep up with the crims ( who are Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ) ahead of the other side any way . The zoo is taking over I assure you.
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 05:39 GMT : > Here is a sample of NSW Police Automatic Number Plate Recognition : > vehicles, scanning number plates: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : I don't want to leave my apartment these days. Too much watching, : no privacy. Orwell comes to mind. Its really quite simple. Dont break the laws, nothing to worry about.
Whats the problem? I mean to say that should one of these unregistered vehicles run into yours theres no medical insurance for you or your family, hell if hes got no rego hes got no 3rd party, no property insurance etc etc. Get them off the road by any means I say.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 06:22 GMT Hello.
> should one of these unregistered vehicles run into yours > theres no medical insurance for you or your family, Yes, there is.
In NSW, there is always medical coverage in all situations where a motor vehicle has hit a human being.
It's called the "Nominal Defendant":
http://www.maa.nsw.gov.au/default.aspx?MenuID=111
Basically, the NSW Government picks a random insurer "out of a hat" to pay for medical costs.
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 06:36 GMT : Hello. : [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : Basically, the NSW Government picks a random insurer "out of a hat" to : pay for medical costs. So why bother with Compulsary insurance if you know your covered anyway?
Id say that theres a bit more to it than that.
jonz - 01 Sep 2008 06:58 GMT > : Hello. > : [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Id say that theres a bit more to it than that. the reply for when you don`t really have one........
Atheist Chaplain - 01 Sep 2008 07:09 GMT > : Hello. > : [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Id say that theres a bit more to it than that. because it reduces the burden on the public purse!
 Signature "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." Don Hirschberg
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 07:22 GMT : > : Hello. : > : [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] : : because it reduces the burden on the public purse! f.ck the Public Purse, its either all pay or noone pays.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 07:38 GMT Hello.
> f.ck the Public Purse, its either all pay or noone pays. Correct.
That's why they make it the law. It is impossible to register a car in NSW without this compulsory third-party insurance.
The Nominal Defendant is the backup for the minority of lawbreakers. It ensure no poor innocent pedestrian suffers as a result of lawbreakers' negligence.
The majority of people abide by the law.
I'm sure the NSW Government one would see changes in the law if the "minority of lawbreakers" became the "majority of lawbreakers".
Athol - 01 Sep 2008 08:02 GMT > The Nominal Defendant is the backup for the minority of lawbreakers. > It ensure no poor innocent pedestrian suffers as a result of > lawbreakers' negligence. IIRC, the insurance companies are also entitled to attempt to extract *full* costs from the offender *after* paying out.
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
Pit - 01 Sep 2008 13:39 GMT > : "Scotty" <scot...@warnmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > f.ck the Public Purse, its either all pay or noone pays. You selfish prick
Scotty - 02 Sep 2008 07:29 GMT On Sep 1, 2:22 pm, "Scotty" <scot...@warnmail.com> wrote:
> "Atheist Chaplain" <abu...@cia.gov> wrote in messagenews:g9g0v6$30o$1@aioe.org... > : "Scotty" <scot...@warnmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > f.ck the Public Purse, its either all pay or noone pays.
:You selfish prick Why you say fella?
Just because I think that all should be treated equal?
Or just that fuckwits like you should be shot, shat on and minced to feed sharks?
Pit - 02 Sep 2008 08:37 GMT > On Sep 1, 2:22 pm, "Scotty" <scot...@warnmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Or just that fuckwits like you should be shot, shat on and minced to feed sharks? Hang on . I am fond of sharks ( no not family law court lawyers) the ones in the oggen . Thus I have far too much respect for the creatures to expect them to dine out on me .
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 07:15 GMT Hello.
> So why bother with Compulsary insurance if you know your covered anyway? "Nominal Defendant" in NSW only covers human damage. An insurance company *always* pays for any human injuries caused by a vehicle in NSW.
Compulsory Insurance covers property, fire and theft.
> Id say that theres a bit more to it than that. Nope, that's all there is to it.
Noodle - 01 Sep 2008 07:16 GMT Hello.
> Compulsory Insurance covers property, fire and theft. I meant "Comprehensive Insurance covers property, fire & theft".
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 07:26 GMT : Hello. : : > Compulsory Insurance covers property, fire and theft. : : I meant "Comprehensive Insurance covers property, fire & theft". Umm, yeah it does everywhere, but you dont have comprehensive insurance if your cars unregistered do you. Thats in the fine print. Actually the fine print on most insurance policies is scarey, almost completely indemnities the company from payout.
Scotty - 01 Sep 2008 07:24 GMT : Hello. : [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : : Compulsory Insurance covers property, fire and theft. Not in Queensland it doesnt! Your compulsary insurance doesnt cover any property damage/theft/fire unless you take out third party property insurance.
: > Id say that theres a bit more to it than that. : : Nope, that's all there is to it. Well, unless they have changed the laws in Qld recently you guys must have it sweet down there.
Does your compulsary insurance (as part of your yearly rego) cover property damage does it?
Athol - 01 Sep 2008 08:08 GMT > Does your compulsary insurance (as part of your yearly rego) cover > property damage does it? No. He f.cked up.
Mind you, IMO it should. CTP, which the insurance companies are not *allowed* to refuse to provide if they want to offer it at all, should cover everything that TPPD covers. The reason why it won't happen is that a lot of companies don't want to insure stuff like modified cars but will do CTP on them, and if CTP covered everything that TPPD does, a lot of people would walk away from comprehensive insurance.
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
Toby Ponsenby - 01 Sep 2008 07:46 GMT |
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