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Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / November 2009Great Wall Motors Utes.
All that cheapness comes at a price... http://www.themotorreport.com.au/43501/proton-jumbuck-great-wall-utes-perform-po orly-in-ancap-crash-safety-tests/ >All that cheapness comes at a price... > >http://www.themotorreport.com.au/43501/proton-jumbuck-great-wall-utes-perform-po orly-in-ancap-crash-safety-tests/ The dealer who kept the PM in a free ute (John Grant) is a Great Wall agent, so with any sort of luck he'll provide an upgrade for Kev's old Mazda! ;-)  SignatureJohn H > All that cheapness comes at a price... > > http://www.themotorreport.com.au/43501/proton-jumbuck-great-wall-utes-perform-po orly-in-ancap-crash-safety-tests/ I can honestly say that "crash safety" would be my very LEAST consideration when buying a ute (or even a passenger car). It would be one below "colour", two below "resale" and not even in the same same continent as "bang for buck [both performance and fruit]", "comfort and suitability", "parts availability, interchangeability & cost", "running cost [inc. fuel]" etc. If I thought I needed to be protected from crashing and crash-injuries I wouldn't drive. SignatureElsie. >> All that cheapness comes at a price... >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If I thought I needed to be protected from crashing and crash-injuries I > wouldn't drive. I'm sure people will cry at your funeral. But then I suppose it will be too late for you to still feel bullet proof :-) but for the rest of the population that isn't in the nutter category, you might be surprised to find that vehicle manufacturers don't put stuff in their marketing campaigns if they know people don't care, that's why advertising for cars now usually has ANCAP safety ratings and such, because safety sells. Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi >>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> If I thought I needed to be protected from crashing and crash-injuries >> I wouldn't drive. > I'm sure people will cry at your funeral. > But then I suppose it will be too late for you to still feel bullet [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that's why advertising for cars now usually has ANCAP safety ratings and > such, because safety sells. So is that really a factor for you? Would you *genuinely* spend another $2 or $4k to get another ANCAP star?!?! (And is that your major interest when comparing cars?) I'm well aware that the Govts (and the auto associations) have pushed for these things but I very very seriously doubt that the general public gives more than a flying duck about them! SignatureElsie. >>>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > these things but I very very seriously doubt that the general public gives > more than a flying duck about them! Who do you think the government and auto associations represent? People care, or else we would all be driving zero star rated crap on the road. >> So is that really a factor for you? Would you *genuinely* spend another >> $2 or $4k to get another ANCAP star?!?! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Who do you think the government and auto associations represent? People > care, or else we would all be driving zero star rated crap on the road. Hah ha! (And Governments are here to help you too!) Did you know that "gullible" isn't even in the Oxford dictionary? When Volvo starts outselling Hyundai I might believe Joe-Public cares. SignatureElsie. >>> So is that really a factor for you? Would you *genuinely* spend >>> another $2 or $4k to get another ANCAP star?!?! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Hah ha! (And Governments are here to help you too!) > Did you know that "gullible" isn't even in the Oxford dictionary? My oxford, > gullible // adj. easily persuaded or deceived; credulous. gullibility // n. gullibly adv. [gull2 + -ible] > When Volvo starts outselling Hyundai I might believe Joe-Public cares. >>> So is that really a factor for you? Would you *genuinely* spend another >>> $2 or $4k to get another ANCAP star?!?! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> care, or else we would all be driving zero star rated crap on the road. > Hah ha! (And Governments are here to help you too!) > Did you know that "gullible" isn't even in the Oxford dictionary? > > When Volvo starts outselling Hyundai I might believe Joe-Public cares. If all other factors were equal and the only difference was the star safety rating, the Volvo would outsell the Hyundai. >> When Volvo starts outselling Hyundai I might believe Joe-Public cares. > > If all other factors were equal and the only difference was the star safety > rating, the Volvo would outsell the Hyundai. Perhaps; but only if they also had better colours and sexier-looking girls in their adverts! As I said before; safety *IS* a consideration; it's just a very very minor one. SignatureElsie. >>> When Volvo starts outselling Hyundai I might believe Joe-Public cares. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > As I said before; safety *IS* a consideration; it's just a very very minor > one. In your opinion. >>>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > for these things but I very very seriously doubt that the general public > gives more than a flying duck about them! Depends on what aspect of "safety" we are talking about, I don't care all that much about airbags, traction control, stability control etc but I would be concerned driving a vehicle that had such poor structural integrity that it folded in on me in a crash. Daryl > Depends on what aspect of "safety" we are talking about, I don't care > all that much about airbags, traction control, stability control etc but > I would be concerned driving a vehicle that had such poor structural > integrity that it folded in on me in a crash. Oddly enough; I'd be much happier! If you (and the rest of the road users) started driving like one-small-crash-could-kill-you you'd all drive less and you'd all drive much more carefully. [*] That would make the roads a much better place to be on! SignatureElsie. [*] That's the theory anyway. Humans being humans I doubt that'd be the reality though. > Depends on what aspect of "safety" we are talking about, I don't care all > that much about airbags, traction control, stability control etc but I > would be concerned driving a vehicle that had such poor structural > integrity that it folded in on me in a crash. Personally I couldn't care less. Having ridden motorcycles for many years even the very worst car on the road offers significantly better crash protection by comparison to any bike. I also don't put a lot of stock in safety rating numbers as I don't think they're indicative of how safe a car truly is. You can have a car with the very best structural integrity on the planet and it won't get a five star rating unless it has stability control, and stability control won't do dick to protect you if you're involved in a prang. -- Regards, Noddy. >> Depends on what aspect of "safety" we are talking about, I don't care all >> that much about airbags, traction control, stability control etc but I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > they're indicative of how safe a car truly is. You can have a car with the > very best structural integrity on the planet The Chinese stuff has the worst structural integrity and the lowest ANCAP safety ratings... that is more then just a coincidence I would suspect. and it won't get a five star > rating unless it has stability control, and stability control won't do > dick to protect you if you're involved in a prang. If it helps avoid a prang, it's a pretty important safety measure. > The Chinese stuff has the worst structural integrity and the lowest ANCAP > safety ratings... that is more then just a coincidence I would suspect. Absolutely. In my opinion it has everything to do with the Chinese being about 25 years behind the rest of the world in terms of being able to produce quality materials and turning them into a useful product. >If it helps avoid a prang, it's a pretty important safety measure. It's a useful tool, sure, but when you're running cars into concrete barriers to measure their crash test performance it's an irrelevant feature that somehow figures in the results. -- Regards, Noddy. >If it helps avoid a prang, it's a pretty important safety measure. It's only an important safety measure if there's a measurable positive effect on the crash statistics! Stability control is impressive from the little bit I've seen of it, to the point where it will do as well or better than any driver in most hazardous situations... far better in some. But, what will be the ultimate effect on the crash statistics when experienced drivers avoid most of those situations to start with? And if you want to give yourself a fright let an inexperienced driver loose with stability control on a gravel road and watch 'em go. Chances are they'll get from A to B in half the time as without... and with complete confidence. How's that likely to impact on the statistics? Look at ABS. It's been around for yonks and there's those who've been spruiking its safety aspects for just as long. AFAIK the statistical proof of its contribution to any reduction in the road toll (or crash rates) still manages to evade the spruikers! OTOH the positive contribution of passive safety measures... vehicle mass, seat belts and airbags are well proven and highly significant. The reason is that most drivers don't rely on active safety measures to avoid a prang, they simply drive according to their vehicle's capabilities (and drive a little harder if it's more capable). If they do happen to crash it's the passive devices that save 'em. SignatureJohn H > >If it helps avoid a prang, it's a pretty important safety measure. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > capabilities (and drive a little harder if it's more capable). If > they do happen to crash it's the passive devices that save 'em. ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets through people's heads that the biggest advantage it offers is the ability to both brake and steer similarity. Many journos and presenters still bang on about 'reduced stopping distances' and nothing else. If the people perceived to be experts by the great unwashed can't communicate what the system does best, how do they expert 'Mrs Bowler in her Corolla' (she traded in the Morris Minor, ok!) to know? > ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets through > people's heads that the biggest advantage it offers is the ability to both [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > system does best, how do they expert 'Mrs Bowler in her Corolla' (she > traded in the Morris Minor, ok!) to know? Exactly. -- Regards, Noddy. > > ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets through > > people's heads that the biggest advantage it offers is the ability to both [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. ..and yes, the 2nd 'expert' should read 'expect'.... >> Look at ABS. It's been around for yonks and there's those who've been >> spruiking its safety aspects for just as long. AFAIK the statistical [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >system does best, how do they expert 'Mrs Bowler in her Corolla' (she >traded in the Morris Minor, ok!) to know? The main problem IMHO is you need to completely change the way you've been conditioned to use the brakes... ie teach an old dog a complex new trick. It also takes a considerable amount of practice, which tends be frowned upon if you do it on a public road. Another problem is the vast difference in the effectiveness of ABS on a variety of surfaces in different cars. If, like me, you drive a number of different cars, most of which don't have ABS, it's probably not even desirable to condition yourself to use ABS to its best advantage. I'd also wonder how many drivers are out there that don't even know what the ABS feels like until they manage to activate it in emergency, which is also likely to include the more cautious ones who tend to survive by avoiding hazardous situations. The reckless drivers are the ones more likely to rely on their ABS to save 'em IMO. Neither group are likely to improve the statistics by having it. SignatureJohn H > I'd also wonder how many drivers are out there that don't even know > what the ABS feels like until they manage to activate it in emergency, > which is also likely to include the more cautious ones who tend to > survive by avoiding hazardous situations. The reckless drivers are > the ones more likely to rely on their ABS to save 'em IMO. Neither > group are likely to improve the statistics by having it. Agreed. -- Regards, Noddy. >ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets through >people's heads that the biggest advantage it offers is the ability to both [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >system does best, how do they expert 'Mrs Bowler in her Corolla' (she >traded in the Morris Minor, ok!) to know? Did you happen to watch Top Gear on SBS last night? Clarkson's Volvo with ABS was a shoe-in for their 100kph brake test. Hammond locked both front wheels on his non ABS Rover for the entire length of his stop. I'd have thought him to be a much better driver than that... or is he simply conditioned to having ABS? SignatureJohn H > ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets through > people's heads that the biggest advantage it offers is the ability to both > brake and steer similarity. Many journos and presenters still bang on > about 'reduced stopping distances' and nothing else. That only holds on tarmac, and even then, not always. A lot of fatals occur elsewhere than on tarmac roads, and ABS is a hindrance on gravel. > > ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets through > > people's heads that the biggest advantage it offers is the ability to both [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That only holds on tarmac, and even then, not always. A lot of fatals occur elsewhere than on tarmac roads, and ABS is a > hindrance on gravel. Yes, I know. Calrence Street, Sydney, about 1986. Evening, wet road, no traffic to speak of. A new S class comes barrelling Northwards and about halfway along sees a cat nonchalantly crossing the road very slowly. Hammers the brakes, nothing locks up and the car comes to a dead straight stop some distance beyond the cat having run over it with probably all four wheels. A 'hindrance' on gravel? Complete PITA more like if you're actually relying on it. That's why the Quattro had an 'ABS Off' switch :) The Outback should have one too :( >> > ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets >> > through [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > That's why the Quattro had an 'ABS Off' switch :) > The Outback should have one too :( and most off road or dual purpose vehicle now days have ABS systems that recognise dirt or gravel roads and respond accordingly. I was in a C class Merc with a friend the other day and the back car park area of his work is loose gravel, and him being a bit of a "lad" decided to play as there were no other cars there at the time, the merc happily stopped with locked up wheels, ABS had not been touched or turned off. Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi >and most off road or dual purpose vehicle now days have ABS systems that >recognise dirt or gravel roads and respond accordingly. >I was in a C class Merc with a friend the other day and the back car park >area of his work is loose gravel, and him being a bit of a "lad" decided to >play as there were no other cars there at the time, the merc happily stopped >with locked up wheels, ABS had not been touched or turned off. The best of the modern ABS systems can certainly achieve reasonable stopping distances on gravel, but they don't allow you to steer (which was Neil's point). I can swing the wheel on my Outback from lock to lock under ABS on corrugations or gravel with no response from the steering whatsoever (exactly the same as with any car that doesn't have ABS). The designer still only has the choice between an ABS system that allows you to steer on gravel, or one that actually stops the car. :) SignatureJohn H > >and most off road or dual purpose vehicle now days have ABS systems that > >recognise dirt or gravel roads and respond accordingly. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The designer still only has the choice between an ABS system that > allows you to steer on gravel, or one that actually stops the car. :) ..and at least in the OB, by the time you realise that you can't do the former under heavy braking on gravel, a sudden stop and big crunch may soon tell you that it's now too late to achieve the latter. >John_H wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >former under heavy braking on gravel, a sudden stop and big crunch may >soon tell you that it's now too late to achieve the latter. I remain conditioned to either steer or brake (but not at the same time) and intend staying that way. :) Either way, it still comes back to having to learn how to use ABS to gain anything from it (or to avoid being embarrassed by it). Compounded by the fact that no two makes, or model, of car are likely to behave exactly the same. Consequently it's essential to practice using the ABS under a range of conditions lest there are any surprises in store. Just don't let Plod catch you at it. :) SignatureJohn H >>> ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets through >>> people's heads that the biggest advantage it offers is the ability to both [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > stop some distance beyond the cat having run over it with probably all > four wheels. A very long cat? > > A 'hindrance' on gravel? Complete PITA more like if you're actually > relying on it. > That's why the Quattro had an 'ABS Off' switch :) > The Outback should have one too :( > >>> ABS may make significant differences to the road toll when it gets through > >>> people's heads that the biggest advantage it offers is the ability to both [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > That's why the Quattro had an 'ABS Off' switch :) > > The Outback should have one too :( Well, both fronts and the left rear at least. BTW, yes, that should be Clarence St. Thank you all for letting me off nicely! >> Depends on what aspect of "safety" we are talking about, I don't care all >> that much about airbags, traction control, stability control etc but I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > rating unless it has stability control, and stability control won't do dick > to protect you if you're involved in a prang. I don't give much thought to the ratings either but did you watch the video clip of the Great Wall crash test posted earlier in the thread? The drivers area was severely damaged and a driver would be unlikely to have survived unlike a similar crash in a better built vehicle without relying on airbags etc. I'm sure in a well engineered vehicle like a MB the driver and passengers would walk away without any serious injuries but in the Great Wall the only place they would be going would be to a morgue. Daryl Daryl > I don't give much thought to the ratings either but did you watch the > video clip of the Great Wall crash test posted earlier in the thread? I did, and there's a better one that's been on Youtube for a few years now with one of their earlier "Territory" style vehicles. > The drivers area was severely damaged and a driver would be unlikely to > have survived unlike a similar crash in a better built vehicle without > relying on airbags etc. Absolutely. > I'm sure in a well engineered vehicle like a MB the driver and passengers > would walk away without any serious injuries but in the Great Wall the > only place they would be going would be to a morgue. The crash test performance displayed in the clip was appallingly bad, but then you get what you pay for. I'd imagine the people who would buy the things wouldn't be concerned about it. Personally I wouldn't buy one, and it's crash test performance would have little to do with that. I simply wouldn't buy one for the same reason I wouldn't buy a Tatra or anything else made in India, as they're likely to be f.cking great heaps of unreliable sh.t. -- Regards, Noddy. > I don't give much thought to the ratings either but did you watch the > video clip of the Great Wall crash test posted earlier in the thread? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Daryl So what Daryl Daryl? I'm sure if you rode a motorbike into that that crash-test you'd probably die, same as if you drove a 60s Mini, Healey etc etc. You buy a vehicle to do a job. If it does the job at 2/3rds the price who gives a rats how it fares in areas you'll most-likely never use? SignatureElsie. > > > So what Daryl Daryl? I'm sure if you rode a motorbike into that that > crash-test you'd probably die, same as if you drove a 60s Mini, Healey > etc etc. > You buy a vehicle to do a job. If it does the job at 2/3rds the price > who gives a rats how it fares in areas you'll most-likely never use? exactly, this is a cheap work vehicle, don't give a stuff if doesn't have ABS, airbags whatever, it would be used by the local tradies for carrying their tools, lawn mowing gear etc, as long as it does the job and is reliable. >> > >> So what Daryl Daryl? I'm sure if you rode a motorbike into that that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > carrying their tools, lawn mowing gear etc, as long as it does the job > and is reliable. Sounds like it fails on all counts then as the chances of them being reliable are very slim. Cheap to buy can often turn out to be not so cheap to own, ask anyone who bought Eastern European tractors because they were cheap, they became worthless very quickly making their overall cost very much higher than tractors that cost more than double the price. Daryl >> I don't give much thought to the ratings either but did you watch the >> video clip of the Great Wall crash test posted earlier in the thread? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You buy a vehicle to do a job. If it does the job at 2/3rds the price who > gives a rats how it fares in areas you'll most-likely never use? so you admit there is still a chance that you might have an accident ?? Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi >> I don't give much thought to the ratings either but did you watch the >> video clip of the Great Wall crash test posted earlier in the thread? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > So what Daryl Daryl? Smartarse. I'm sure if you rode a motorbike into that that > crash-test you'd probably die, WTF. same as if you drove a 60s Mini, Healey > etc etc. How many people drive 60's cars as daily drivers these days? I would happily own an old car but no way would I drive it every day so the risk is significantly less. > You buy a vehicle to do a job. One of the "jobs" most people expect a vehicle to do is to protect the occupants in a crash. If it does the job at 2/3rds the price > who gives a rats how it fares in areas you'll most-likely never use? Most people with a brain. Daryl > Personally I couldn't care less. Having ridden motorcycles for many years > even the very worst car on the road offers significantly better crash > protection by comparison to any bike. I prefer superman impersonations rather than being trapped in a Chinese vegetable tin. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >>>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > these things but I very very seriously doubt that the general public gives > more than a flying duck about them! what part of "Auto manufacturers would not be spending money on advertising ANCAP ratings if the general population ding give a flying f.ck " is giving you a problem ?? Big corporations spend millions on market research and focus groups so they know exactly where to target every advertising dollar, if safety didn't sell then it wouldn't even get brochure space. Just because you don't care that some vehicle manufacturers considers your chest as part of the crumple zone of the car does not mean that most of the general driving and car buying public thinks the same way. At the end of the day Joe Bloggs will look at car A and car B, and if car B has 5 stars over car A's 4 and all else being equal I'm willing to be that 1 star WILL make a difference. And while I may think I am not going to crash, its the other fuckwits on the road I have to be more concerned with so if I'm driving a 5 star rated car and get T boned by a drunk running a red light in a 1999 Hyundai Excel, I think that all those stars are worth whatever I paid for them. So are you such an elite driver that you can avoid getting blind sided by a P plater in Dads Land Cruiser on full tilt?? Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi >So are you such an elite driver that you can avoid getting blind sided by a >P plater in Dads Land Cruiser on full tilt?? And if he isn't, he'd also need to make sure he's driving something considerably bigger and heavier than the fuckwit who hits him. :) What many people don't seem to realise, and the advertising does nothing to dispel, is that the ANCAP star ratings are only relative to cars of similar size and weight.... http://www.ancap.com.au/faq/7/ SignatureJohn H >> So are you such an elite driver that you can avoid getting blind sided by a >> P plater in Dads Land Cruiser on full tilt?? > > And if he isn't, he'd also need to make sure he's driving something > considerably bigger and heavier than the fuckwit who hits him. :) I've got an even better procedure; I don't let them hit me. SignatureElsie. >>> So are you such an elite driver that you can avoid getting blind sided >>> by a P plater in Dads Land Cruiser on full tilt?? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I've got an even better procedure; I don't let them hit me. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA what a maroon................ Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi >>>> So are you such an elite driver that you can avoid getting blind >>>> sided by a P plater in Dads Land Cruiser on full tilt?? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > what a maroon................ Err; just how many massive injurious-crashes have you actually had? None? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA what a moron................ SignatureElsie. >>>>> So are you such an elite driver that you can avoid getting blind sided >>>>> by a P plater in Dads Land Cruiser on full tilt?? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > what a moron................ WOW quick to answer your own question there, maybe when your certificate of Psychic reading finally arrives from the mail order school in the US you will actually have a clue, but until then your just another ignorant twonk :-) Suggesting that your driving skill is such that you can detect and avoid every idiot on the road as well as those genuine accidents suggests to me that your barely out of high school or have a mental deficiency. Anyone with at least a modicum of driving experience will admit that even the most careful driver cannot predict when they will have an accident, all you can do is prepare in advance to give yourself the best chance of survival, but hey, if you want to be just another temporary Australian then go ahead, as long as you don't take any of my family or friends with you. Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi > I've got an even better procedure; I don't let them hit me. Oddly enough, I used to think that being on a bike I was quick and nimble enough to avoid trouble and stay scratch & dent free. That theory got canned in a big hurry when some silly old f.cking pensioner who couldn't drive a tent peg up a cat's arse with a 10 pound sledge hammer sailed through a stop sign and collected me, leaving me with a broken back and pelvis, lost teeth, fractured ribs and jaw, broken wrist and ankle and enough lost skin to make a truck tarpaulin. I can clearly remember flying through the air for around 60 feet or so at around 70km/h taking in the scenery of Main street Kilmore while I had a quick re-evaluation of my theory, and right before I hit the parked car I concluded that my theory was complete bullshit and this was _going_to_hurt_. Not surprisingly, it did. Lots. -- Regards, Noddy. > Oddly enough, I used to think that being on a bike I was quick and nimble > enough to avoid trouble and stay scratch & dent free. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Not surprisingly, it did. Lots. I witnessed a female postie get hit by a 4wd that went through a stop sign a number of years ago. I can still vividly remember her flying about 12 feet in the air straight up and the helmet coming off her head and flying off to the side. Stopped just past the scene and walked back to find her with pretty serious injuries. She lived probably helped by the fact there was an emergency doctor in the car behind me and he started her care immediately on the side of the road. She had multiple broken ribs, broken pelvis, head injuries, ruptured spleen and a broken arm. Punctured lungs as well meant that she was basically moaning as we turned her gently on her good side to help her to breathe. She was bleeding from the ears and it was bloody horrible. She had her lights on and had a yellow shirt on, but this guy just took off without seeing her. I was called to court about seven years later as they attempted to determine what compensation she should get. Biggest problem they had was trying to find me as the cop who did the report had left the force and no-one could read his writing in his notebook. Eventually I was contacted by a private investigator and pointed him in the direction of another witness who I knew the address of as he lived next to a girl i was trying to date at the time. I wasn't needed in court after his testimony left no doubt that the 4wd driver was at fault. On another note, I've just flown home after spending most of the week in Brisbane organising and attending my fathers funeral. The traffic in Brisbane is bloody crazy. i had a bus do a kamikaze on me and pull out from a stop as I was alongside with his indicator not being changed until after I quickly moved into another lane. Thankfully I knew there was no-one beside me but this arsehole did not even check his mirrors. I was level with his rear wheels as he moved out. The gateway is a carpark after 4pm heading north. What a shambles. > On another note, I've just flown home after spending most of the week in > Brisbane organising and attending my fathers funeral. The traffic in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > level with his rear wheels as he moved out. The gateway is a carpark after > 4pm heading north. What a shambles. It's certainly a sh.t-hole that I hate going anywhere near. My condolences about your father. -- Regards, Noddy. > It's certainly a sh.t-hole that I hate going anywhere near. > > My condolences about your father. Thanks, it was at least mercifully quick in the end. He had emphysema and could no longer breathe even though they were putting heaps of oxygen into him. His organs collapsed and he passed within an hour. We had a wonderful service for him where his love of life and humour were brought forth. One funny story that was related about him was when he and mum were courting and they went to a movie with Elizabeth Taylor in it. ET was apparently balling her eyes out and her leading man couldn't find a hanky or tissue to dry her eyes. After a couple of minutes of this the old man yelled out 'For crying out loud use the tail of your bloody shirt' The cinema erupted in laughter except some bird at the front yelled out 'Shut Up'. Mum dragged dad down to the local cafe to have a drink and as they went to leave the door handle fell off in his hands. He was a funny bastard at times, but it was horrible to see him in the last couple of months as he tried to breathe. I'd been down a month ago when he was moved into a nursing home as mum could no longer look after him at home. I'm glad I made the effort. My wife wanted me to move back there a couple of years ago. When she came down to join me for the funeral she decided that it was no longer a good idea. I picked her and my sister up at the airport as their planes arrived a couple of hours apart it was easier to stay there. We left the airport at 3.45pm and got to Redcliffe around 4.45pm. It normally only takes about 30 mins. We were lucky to be doing 5 - 10km/h in places on a freeway where you are supposed to be able to do 100! People cannot merge properly and have no idea how to maintain a steady flow of traffic. > One funny story that was related about him was when he and mum were > courting and they went to a movie with Elizabeth Taylor in it. ET was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bastard at times, but it was horrible to see him in the last couple of > months as he tried to breathe. It's never pleasant. I sat beside my old man every day for three weeks while he lay in the paliative care unit of the Alfred Hospital dying of lung cancer and it was incredibly hard to do. When the end came it was a relief for everyone (including Dad) but it was difficult to see a bloke who was so strong and fit for his age realise that he was losing the battle and could do nothing about it. On the plus side there were over 500 people at his service which was a fantastic send off, and I got to hear similar stories to those of your father that made the whole thing more of a celebration than anything else. One of the really cool things a long time friend of his had done was had an old photo of Dad that I'd never seen before blown up into a huge poster size that sat as the backdrop for the service. It's a great black and white photo taken of the old man when he was around 25 or so wearing (according to his mate) a purple suit with matching hat and spats standing with one foot on the running board of his '36 6 wheeel equipped Buick. Apparently the photo was taken early one Saturday evening after they'd knocked off work and were about to head off to the local dance hall to hunt for talent. It's a great picture and I've got it here to get framed and hang up in my office when the new house is built. > I'd been down a month ago when he was moved into a nursing home as mum > could no longer look after him at home. I'm glad I made the effort. I'm sure you are. > My wife wanted me to move back there a couple of years ago. When she came > down to join me for the funeral she decided that it was no longer a good [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you are supposed to be able to do 100! People cannot merge properly and > have no idea how to maintain a steady flow of traffic. We've got friends in North Lakes which is about 40 minutes or so out of Brissy, and we spend a couple of weeks or so in each other's company once a year alternating between their place and ours. We spent ten days or so in August up at their place and they'll be down in June or July next year once our new house is up and giving us a hand to so the concrete driveways. I always *hate* going up there just because of the road system. People complain about Victoria, but I'm quite convinced those who do have *never* driven in QLD. I'd rather spend a month doing hook turns in Melbourne than spend 5 minutes on the Gateway. -- Regards, Noddy. > On another note, I've just flown home after spending most of the week in > Brisbane organising and attending my fathers funeral. I am sorry to hear that my condolences The traffic in > Brisbane is bloody crazy. i had a bus do a kamikaze on me and pull out > from a stop as I was alongside with his indicator not being changed > until after I quickly moved into another lane. Thankfully I knew there > was no-one beside me but this arsehole did not even check his mirrors. I > was level with his rear wheels as he moved out. I had a bus last year cross 3 lanes behine ripping off the rear bumper and I had to sue for repairs as they tried to blame me for failure to give way ( fsking bullshite) The gateway is a carpark > after 4pm heading north. What a shambles. the additional lanes are due to begin construction shortly about 20 years after they were needed and the extra gateway bridge will open as well , why is why I wont use pay roads as rat running is much faster now . Next time take a cab through the city :) will certainly wake you up > > Oddly enough, I used to think that being on a bike I was quick and nimble > > enough to avoid trouble and stay scratch & dent free. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > was level with his rear wheels as he moved out. The gateway is a carpark > after 4pm heading north. What a shambles. Buses are supposed to give at least 5 seconds indicator IIRC from the road rules, that would be 7-8 flashes at 1.5cps. They can't just pull out. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >>> Oddly enough, I used to think that being on a bike I was quick and nimble >>> enough to avoid trouble and stay scratch & dent free. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Buses are supposed to give at least 5 seconds indicator IIRC from the road > rules, that would be 7-8 flashes at 1.5cps. They can't just pull out. ~~~~~~~~~~ yeah? just watchem........ > Al Signaturejonz "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind - boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford,1992 <snip> > On another note, I've just flown home after spending most of the week > in Brisbane organising and attending my fathers funeral. Sincere condolences mate. > <snip> > >> On another note, I've just flown home after spending most of the week >> in Brisbane organising and attending my fathers funeral. > > Sincere condolences mate. Thanks, at least he is at rest now. The worst part for me at the funeral was seeing my cousin who is 35 with young kids and has emphysema almost as bad as my father had. Sorry to say but smoking has stuffed her life completely. Her mother smoked like a chimney as well. Dad paid a horrible price for it, with having to be on oxygen 24 hours a day for the last couple of years. He had smoked for 45 years. Although saddened by his passing, I'm glad that his suffering is over. >> I've got an even better procedure; I don't let them hit me. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > quick re-evaluation of my theory, and right before I hit the parked car I > concluded that my theory was complete bullshit and this was _going_to_hurt_. If only you'd had a 5-star-rated safety-bike, eh? 60 feet of flying sounds like some pretty good air (and some pretty good injuries) for a suburban-speed collision. SignatureElsie. > If only you'd had a 5-star-rated safety-bike, eh? If only. > 60 feet of flying sounds like some pretty good air (and some pretty good > injuries) for a suburban-speed collision. Never been within 10 feet of a bike, huh? :) -- Regards, Noddy. >> If only you'd had a 5-star-rated safety-bike, eh? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. from the sounds of it, our friend Elsie hasn't been around cars all that much either :-) Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi > > If only you'd had a 5-star-rated safety-bike, eh? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Never been within 10 feet of a bike, huh? :) It's probably been closer than that to a motorcycle.. sniffing the seat, but never been game to throw a leg over one... let alone a mended broken leg. It's probably another transvestite. Lots of them lately, must be a plague. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > >> I've got an even better procedure; I don't let them hit me. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 60 feet of flying sounds like some pretty good air (and some pretty good > injuries) for a suburban-speed collision. Sounds pretty normal unless whatever collected you stops you (like a van, tree, wall, etc.) You're dealing with the potential energy of an object weighing maybe 70-90Kg suddenly being released horizontally, or more likely upwards, from a point above the ground. Depending on the launch angle, the arc may extend a fair distance before gravity wins. Then it just hurts - a lot. > Sounds pretty normal unless whatever collected you stops you (like a van, > tree, wall, etc.) You're dealing with the potential energy of an object > weighing maybe 70-90Kg suddenly being released horizontally, or more > likely upwards, from a point above the ground. Depending on the launch > angle, the arc may extend a fair distance before gravity wins. Then it > just hurts - a lot. It certainly does. I never actually measured the flying distance, but one of the Ambo's said it was around 60 foot which isn't much more than three car lengths. If I'd just flew straight out and landed on the road I'd probably have been less banged up (assuming I didn't get run over by a car coming the other way) but I came off at a slight angle and went straight into the back of a parked car where I apparently caved in it's back window with my head and then flung sideways to hit the power pole on the footpath beside it. -- Regards, Noddy. > > Sounds pretty normal unless whatever collected you stops you (like a van, > > tree, wall, etc.) You're dealing with the potential energy of an object [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I apparently caved in it's back window with my head and then flung sideways > to hit the power pole on the footpath beside it. I've had six offs involving cars... in the early days. I had collisions with the big 3. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > I've had six offs involving cars... in the early days. I had collisions > with the > big 3. I don't think there'd be too many bike riders who haven't kissed the ground on the odd occasion, or the odd altercation with a car or three. I can't remember the number of off's I've had with cars, but it'd be a few. My worst was the last one I mentioned, but my most comical involved a bird. I was riding down the road minding my own business when a seagull the size of a f.cking Doberman flew across in front of me just in time to strike me right in the visor, and that knocked me off the back of the bike and I slid into a parked van and broke my leg on one of it's back wheels. -- Regards, Noddy. > > I've had six offs involving cars... in the early days. I had collisions > > with the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > right in the visor, and that knocked me off the back of the bike and I slid > into a parked van and broke my leg on one of it's back wheels. Remins me of an amusing one with flying objects where I didn't come off. This f.ck*ng sheet of newspaper flew up and followed me wherever I tried to avoid it and you guessed it, wrapped around my helmet. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > > > I've had six offs involving cars... in the early days. I had collisions > > > with the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Al Stop it! I was still visualising Noddy lying on the ground coming to, while the concerned Seagull from Beached Whale stood there saying "Chup Bro?" > Stop it! I was still visualising Noddy lying on the ground coming to, > while the concerned Seagull from Beached Whale stood there saying "Chup > Bro?" Lol :) -- Regards, Noddy. > > > > I've had six offs involving cars... in the early days. I had collisions > > > > with the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > while the concerned Seagull from Beached Whale stood there saying "Chup > Bro?" Some religious nutcase (probably a priest) ran up to where I laid on the road with broken bones and asked if he could do some weird ritual blessing sh.t. Musta thought I was gonna die. IIRC.. due to fading misty melty 70s memories, I gave him the WTF look and politely told him I needed an ambulance. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > >> So are you such an elite driver that you can avoid getting blind sided by a > >> P plater in Dads Land Cruiser on full tilt?? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I've got an even better procedure; I don't let them hit me. Alien Force Fields.... wonderful things! >>>>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > So are you such an elite driver that you can avoid getting blind sided > by a P plater in Dads Land Cruiser on full tilt?? You really are an oddly-hysterical person aren't you? You must live in a very weird world if your "Joe Blogges" are gathering around and bullshitting to each-other about how safe their cars are.... Do they watch the V8s and rave about what ANCAP ratings Skaifey's car has and how he blew Winterbottom's crash-test results "to the weeds man!"? I can't imagine any person in my family or workplace who would even be able to quote the ANCAP rating of the car they drive (or the car they wish they drove). I think you're imagining it. SignatureElsie. >>>>>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > wish they drove). > I think you're imagining it. General public (sheeple) believe anything they are fed by govt's and newspapers. The reality is that the average person never has life threatening accidents in their lifetime yet they think they are in imminent danger of doing so because of indoctrination. In fourty odd years I have a few bingles once even rolled a hilux (without a seat belt and no damage to me) My father had only one accident causing broken bones,(collar bone) and it was caused by the seat belt(hit from side in his door) If you do have a hit brick wall type accident then better vehicles and seat belts are the go but the percentage of this happening are a lot less than general perception > General public (sheeple) believe anything they are fed by govt's and > newspapers. The reality is that the average person never has life [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > seat belts are the go but the percentage of this happening are a lot > less than general perception Good point but I wasn't saying that you won't crash. I was just saying that "crashability" is a very minor consideration. Some people here seem to believe that it's a major consideration but I reckon they're bullshitting. What's your experience? Have you or anyone you know ever chosen a car primarily because of it's crash-test performance? What if that car cost 10%, 20%, 30% more? In my experience that's a big fat NO. SignatureElsie. > Good point but I wasn't saying that you won't crash. I was just saying > that "crashability" is a very minor consideration. It may be for *you*, but it certainly isn't for others. For what it's worth, it doesn't rate highly for me either. > Some people here seem to believe that it's a major consideration but I > reckon they're bullshitting. There's no doubt that it is for some people. Interestingly, Hyundai have a "safety package" on the Getz that's optional, which I think includes ABS and ESP, and it costs around 1100 bucks or so. Uptake on this option has been *very* low, with less than 5% of cars being so equipped. What you make of that is entirely up to you, but to me it suggests little more than people who buy a Getz are looking for budget priced "no frills" transport. > What's your experience? Have you or anyone you know ever chosen a car > primarily because of it's crash-test performance? > What if that car cost 10%, 20%, 30% more? > In my experience that's a big fat NO. I've never bought a car based on it's crash performance record, and I don't know anyone else who has either, but that's not to say that "safety" isn't an important consideration for some when it comes to choosing a vehicle, and in particular the individual's perception of safety as opposed to how "safe" the vehicle actually is. I would expect the overwhelming majority of large 4wd's in suburbia are owned by people who *think* they're a safer option than a regular sedan, and I know 3 or 4 people who own Land Cruisers purely for this reason alone. They believe, and with some merit, that if they're involved in a collision with a regular car they'll be better protected in the large and heavy Cruiser than the people in whatever it is that hits them (or they hit) will be. A Camry is probably a *far* safer car than a Land Cruiser for daily driving duties but if I had to choose to be in either if they were about to pile into each other at speed I'd take the Cruiser any day thanks. The downside to this perception of safety theory is that these people have to drive around suburbia in Land Cruisers, and that definitely ain't fun. They're horrendous on fuel, they handle like drunk bulls on ice, they weigh about as much as a Sherman tank and take around the same distance to stop and they have a propensity to roll over easily and offer their occupants f.ck all in terms of protection when they do. Still, when they run up the arse of an Echo on the freeway they won't get their hair mussed. If the truth be known they'd probably be far safer in something like a Honda Accord, plus enjoy the benefits of not having to drive a truck to be "safe", but they can't get their heads around that and I suspect they're not the only ones either. -- Regards, Noddy. > I would expect the overwhelming majority of large 4wd's in suburbia are > owned by people who *think* they're a safer option than a regular sedan, .... OK; valid point. Yep; I know several people who have bought bigger cars because they're "safer" too. I was only thinking of equivalent vehicles. SignatureElsie. >> General public (sheeple) believe anything they are fed by govt's and >> newspapers. The reality is that the average person never has life [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Some people here seem to believe that it's a major consideration but I > reckon they're bullshitting. It's not a question of major consideration, but if it's the choice between two vehicles and it's the only difference, it will be the clincher. >> ... I was just saying >> that "crashability" is a very minor consideration. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It's not a question of major consideration, but if it's the choice between > two vehicles and it's the only difference, it will be the clincher. Very different to what we were discussing (unless you know of a 5-star ANCAP 4WD dual-cab for $23k) SignatureElsie. >>> ... I was just saying that "crashability" is a very minor >>> consideration. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Very different to what we were discussing (unless you know of a 5-star > ANCAP 4WD dual-cab for $23k) Great Wall 4WD dual cab is $26,990. Daryl Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi >>>>>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> > You really are an oddly-hysterical person aren't you? you must be strangly deluded if you think that was hysterical :-) > You must live in a very weird world if your "Joe Blogges" are gathering > around and bullshitting to each-other about how safe their cars are.... > Do they watch the V8s and rave about what ANCAP ratings Skaifey's car has > and how he blew Winterbottom's crash-test results "to the weeds man!"? you really are a clueless twonk, do you even understand the concept of an *accident* and even your average drooling imbecile knows that the V8's don't have ANCAP ratings so where did that lame analogy even come from. > I can't imagine any person in my family or workplace who would even be > able to quote the ANCAP rating of the car they drive (or the car they wish > they drove). > I think you're imagining it. I think your so focused on being right your just going to ignore millions of dollars of market research in the vain hope that it will just go away, trying to equate everyone else with your narrow and ill informed opinions doesn't make you right, in this case it makes you a mouth breathing retard, but hey if you want to keep that out there on display, its your prerogative :-) > I think your so focused on being right your just going to ignore > millions of dollars of market research in the vain hope that it will > just go away, trying to equate everyone else with your narrow and ill > informed opinions doesn't make you right, in this case it makes you a > mouth breathing retard, but hey if you want to keep that out there on > display, its your prerogative :-) Heh heh; you're getting hysterical again. Do you reckon your "millions of dollars of market research" would match the millions Volvo wasted with it's "Bloody Volvo" campaign or the millions Mitsubishi wasted making the Magna an unsellable fugly? People do stupid things (look at your replies for an example). Sure they'll mention it in the ad if they get a favourable rating but I think you'll find that Toyota's 200 Killer-Wasps has generated 10 to 100 times more market interest than any ANCAP rating adverts ever have. SignatureElsie. > > I think your so focused on being right your just going to ignore > > millions of dollars of market research in the vain hope that it will [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > think you'll find that Toyota's 200 Killer-Wasps has generated 10 to 100 > times more market interest than any ANCAP rating adverts ever have. and yet ANCAP ratings still make prime time news stories, I would put my degree of "stupid" up against yours any day of the week, at least my "stupid" hasn't been polluted by the levels of *ignorance* that yours has :-) Peoples perception of what is important evolve, the market evolves along with them. The hot button for today is fuel economy so the Toyota "200 Killer Wasps" ad campaign would go down like a cheap hooker now days, maybe you noticed they don't pursue that style of marketing now days, or are you too fixated on driving like a granny so you can avoid other peoples cars hitting you that you haven't noticed. Signature[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International] "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi > > > I think your so focused on being right your just going to ignore > > > millions of dollars of market research in the vain hope that it will [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > too fixated on driving like a granny so you can avoid other peoples cars > hitting you that you haven't noticed. In an Aurion as if 180 of the killer wasps have been Morteined perhaps? >> All that cheapness comes at a price... >> >> http://www.themotorreport.com.au/43501/proton-jumbuck-great-wall-utes-perform-po orly-in-ancap-crash-safety-tests/ >> > I can honestly say that "crash safety" would be my very LEAST > consideration when buying a ute (or even a passenger car). More fool you. > It would be one below "colour", two below "resale" and not even in the > same same continent as "bang for buck [both performance and fruit]", > "comfort and suitability", "parts availability, interchangeability & > cost", "running cost [inc. fuel]" etc. In which case Great Wall vehicles represent even even poorer value for money. > If I thought I needed to be protected from crashing and crash-injuries I > wouldn't drive. It's your life, but what about the passengers? >>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > It's your life, but what about the passengers? Well OBVIOUSLY If I thought they were gonna' need crash protection I wouln't drive them either! Do you really, genuinely get behind the wheel of a motor-vehicle and leave your and your passengers' wellbeing in the hands of some air-bags and intrusion protection?!!? This, of course, means that you wouldn't DREAM of ever driving (or taking a passenger) in a non-SRS-equipped car too. You'd never be so fool-hardy as to take a spin around the block in a pre-2000 car or travel in a van or light-commercial vehicle that didn't have 5 ANCAP stars too. sh.t; you'd never go in a bus or train that didn't have seat-belts and air-bags either if you were genuine. Maybe you're not genuine though. Maybe you're just a do-gooder w.nker like the other one. SignatureElsie. >>>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Maybe you're not genuine though. Maybe you're just a do-gooder w.nker > like the other one. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ whooo hoooo, sockit to em bro....:^))))))))))))))))..... Signaturejonz "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind - boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford,1992 >>>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Maybe you're not genuine though. Maybe you're just a do-gooder w.nker > like the other one. Clearly what is being discussed is beyond your level of understanding. You drive a Proton, enough said... >> Maybe you're not genuine though. Maybe you're just a do-gooder w.nker >> like the other one. > > Clearly what is being discussed is beyond your level of understanding. You > drive a Proton, enough said... And you try to change the argument when you realise you are wrong. I guess we all have our faults.... SignatureElsie. > >>> All that cheapness comes at a price... > >>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Maybe you're not genuine though. Maybe you're just a do-gooder w.nker > like the other one. With or without airbags, the bus and particularly the train, represent a *far* lower per capita per Km death or injury risk than practically any other form of land transport, so IMO that's just being a tad silly. FWIW, my son's first L/P car came down to a choice between an immaculate Kia Shuma or a pretty good early Mondeo for the not very much money he had to buy it. The dynamics, safety equipment and ratings swung it to the Mondeo. It's now been traded, but it did its job well. My daughter has an X3 Excel, which was the best thing she could afford. It now has good tyres and a complete new suspension so it's as good as it will ever be, but if I was forced to have a collision in one or the other, it'd be the Ford. > With or without airbags, the bus and particularly the train, represent a > *far* lower per capita per Km death or injury risk than practically any > other form of land transport, so IMO that's just being a tad silly. Far lower than three-fifths-of-f.ck-all? Now *you're* being silly! Just how many injury-causing crashes do you think average (normal) drivers actually have?!!?) > FWIW, my son's first L/P car came down to a choice between an immaculate > Kia Shuma or a pretty good early Mondeo for the not very much money he had > to buy it. > The dynamics, safety equipment and ratings swung it to the Mondeo. It's > now been traded, but it did its job well. Did it; what sort of crash was it involved in? (Or do you mean that the whole crash-worthiness consideration was pointless because it wasn't needed?) > My daughter has an X3 Excel, which was the best thing she could afford. It > now has good tyres and a complete new suspension so it's as good as it > will ever be, but if I was forced to have a collision in one or the other, > it'd be the Ford. Why on earth would you be forced to have a collision?! Only ANCAP *force* cars to have collisions! SignatureElsie. > > With or without airbags, the bus and particularly the train, represent a > > *far* lower per capita per Km death or injury risk than practically any [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just how many injury-causing crashes do you think average (normal) > drivers actually have?!!?) I'm frequently silly, but often serious too ;) > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (Or do you mean that the whole crash-worthiness consideration was > pointless because it wasn't needed?) No. I mean the dynamic package probably made it a better learner / p plate car than many other things - much more competent and forgiving; so maybe helping to avoid close encounters with other vehicles or the scenery. > > > > My daughter has an X3 Excel, which was the best thing she could afford. It [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why on earth would you be forced to have a collision?! Only ANCAP > *force* cars to have collisions! Hippothetical scenario of course. >> All that cheapness comes at a price... >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If I thought I needed to be protected from crashing and crash-injuries I > wouldn't drive. The main reason those vehicles fare so badly in those tests is their poor structural integrity which IMO is something to be worried about. I don't much care to rely on electronic gadgetry to save me but I wouldn't drive something so badly designed/built that it crumpled like a beer can when it hits anything. Daryl >> I can honestly say that "crash safety" would be my very LEAST >> consideration when buying a ute (or even a passenger car). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > wouldn't drive something so badly designed/built that it crumpled like a > beer can when it hits anything. [shrug] You wouldn't drive an E-Type Jag, a Ferrari Daytona or a Datsun Fairlady? A Mercedes Gull-Wing, an Austin Healey Sprite, a Karmann Ghia or an old Mini Cooper S (they WERE death-traps!) I reckon the Great-Wall would sh.t all over any of them for crash-safety! Not that I care either-way though; I don't intend to crash any of them. SignatureElsie. >>> I can honestly say that "crash safety" would be my very LEAST >>> consideration when buying a ute (or even a passenger car). [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > [shrug] You wouldn't drive an E-Type Jag, a Ferrari Daytona or a Datsun > Fairlady? I certainly wouldn't mind an E type. > A Mercedes Gull-Wing, an Austin Healey Sprite, Drove an AH Sprite for 4 yrs. a Karmann Ghia or an old > Mini Cooper S (they WERE death-traps!) > I reckon the Great-Wall would sh.t all over any of them for crash-safety! Possibly but the difference is this is 2009 and when the cars you mention were built crash safety hadn't been thought of. Cars need to be built to a reasonable safety standard and at this point in time Chinese vehicles are still a long way from that. In 2009 the road toll in Vic is about one quarter of what it was 30 or so yrs ago despite a huge increase in traffic volumes and part of that is due to much safer cars. > Not that I care either-way though; I don't intend to crash any of them. Neither does anyone else and IMO well trained drivers can avoid most crashes but you can't 100% control the actions of other drivers and even the very best drivers have the occasional crash. Like I said before I don't care all that much for electronic safety but no thanks to a car whose structure is sub standard. Daryl >>> ... I >>> wouldn't drive something so badly designed/built that it crumpled [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > so yrs ago despite a huge increase in traffic volumes and part of that > is due to much safer cars. Irrelevant; you're just being a snob! You're quite happy to drive a less-safe car in the right circumstances and, surprise surprise, so am I. You just go to a whole lot more trouble trying to justify it to yourself than I do. >> Not that I care either-way though; I don't intend to crash any of them. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Like I said before I don't care all that much for electronic safety but > no thanks to a car whose structure is sub standard. But why spend all that money to "protect" yourself from such an infinitessimally unlikely event when even something as crappy as the Great-Wall has more protection than you've ever needed before? Are that bad a driver? f.ck, wear a helmet and you'll increase your survivability manifold if you're that worried ! I had one fairly major crash 30-odd years ago and I got a few bruises and a cut face (in a '60s 4cyl Jap car) so I'd have to be an idiot wasting money "protecting" myself. (I've probably got a statistically higher chance of getting arse-raped!) SignatureElsie. > I had one fairly major crash 30-odd years ago and I got a few bruises > and a cut face (in a '60s 4cyl Jap car) so I'd have to be an idiot > wasting money "protecting" myself. You've led a boring f.ck*ng life haven't you? Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >>>> ... I >>>> wouldn't drive something so badly designed/built that it crumpled [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> > Irrelevant; you're just being a snob! Bullshit, no one can dispute the fact that better made cars have saved lots of lives. You're quite happy to drive a > less-safe car in the right circumstances and, surprise surprise, so am I. Risk involved with a "Sunday" car is significantly less than with a daily driver, if I did own something like an E type it would be lucky to do more than 5000klms per year unlike my Hilux which will do about 50,000 this year. > You just go to a whole lot more trouble trying to justify it to yourself > than I do. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Are that bad a driver? f.ck, wear a helmet and you'll increase your > survivability manifold if you're that worried ! Like I've said previously I'm not all that interested in electronic gadgetry but anyone who buys a vehicle that is very obviously built with sub standard structure when significantly better made vehicles are available for not a huge amount more has got sh.t for brains. > I had one fairly major crash 30-odd years ago and I got a few bruises > and a cut face (in a '60s 4cyl Jap car) so I'd have to be an idiot > wasting money "protecting" myself. > (I've probably got a statistically higher chance of getting arse-raped!) My cousin had a major crash in a small 4cyl Jap car and she's dead, fact is if her crash was yesterday and she was driving a late model car its very possible she would have survived. Daryl > Like I've said previously I'm not all that interested in electronic > gadgetry but anyone who buys a vehicle that is very obviously built with > sub standard structure when significantly better made vehicles are > available for not a huge amount more has got sh.t for brains. Hey you're talking about my little sister here :-) Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >> Like I've said previously I'm not all that interested in electronic >> gadgetry but anyone who buys a vehicle that is very obviously built with >> sub standard structure when significantly better made vehicles are >> available for not a huge amount more has got sh.t for brains. >> > Hey you're talking about my little sister here :-) Say no more eh Al:-) Daryl >I can honestly say that "crash safety" would be my very LEAST >consideration when buying a ute (or even a passenger car). It's particularly the case with a 4WD ute, or any other off-road vehicle, where the majority of "safety features" only impede performance. Traction and stability control (now essential for a five star rating) is a PITA when it's slippery. Forgetting to turn it off can easily get you bogged to the eyeballs or worse still, have you slide down an embankment unable to get traction. ABS is also a serious impediment in many off bitumen situations. And why pick on the Chinese? Until very recently you could pay $80k for a fully optioned Landcruiser ute with most "safety features", including airbags, not even available as an option. Maybe you still can. SignatureJohn H >> I can honestly say that "crash safety" would be my very LEAST >> consideration when buying a ute (or even a passenger car). [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > including airbags, not even available as an option. Maybe you still > can. I have been out in one of these things (ute) horrible road car I mean cheap shitty horrible but in the dirt it's not much worse than a Lada and they go ok for a shitebox if a little underpowered for my taste I would never seriously "never" own one for the road but in the mud it was better than the lux being lighter > And why pick on the Chinese? Until very recently you could pay $80k > for a fully optioned Landcruiser ute with most "safety features", > including airbags, not even available as an option. Maybe you still > can. Pretty sure that ABS and SRS airbags became standard equipment on the '09 model. The entire dash is new this year. One story I heard was that a lot of mine sites were specifying dual airbags as part of minimum spec for light vehicles on site, and there were increasing numbers of sites changing to patrols because of the lack of airbags on landcruisers. Toyota wanted to claw back their share of the mine market, as it is quite lucrative... SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. : > And why pick on the Chinese? Until very recently you could pay $80k : > for a fully optioned Landcruiser ute with most "safety features", [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : lack of airbags on landcruisers. Toyota wanted to claw back their : share of the mine market, as it is quite lucrative... For the life of me I cant figure out why?!?!?!?!?!? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcRso-wu_fU ;o) >: One story I heard was that a lot of mine sites were specifying dual >: airbags as part of minimum spec for light vehicles on site, and there [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >;o) LOL, that's the funniest thing I've seen or heard all day! Especially since there's currently a heap of those dump trucks for sale throughout the mining areas in CQ. Haven't yet asked about the prices, since I hadn't previously thought of a use for one. :)) SignatureJohn H > LOL, that's the funniest thing I've seen or heard all day! > > Especially since there's currently a heap of those dump trucks for > sale throughout the mining areas in CQ. Haven't yet asked about the > prices, since I hadn't previously thought of a use for one. :)) I was thinking it would make a good shopping cart to take to the local supermarket. It would fix the bastards that hit your car then do a drive off in a hurry. Mind you it would be a bit of a bastard to park in the undercover car park! ;-) >> : One story I heard was that a lot of mine sites were specifying dual >> : airbags as part of minimum spec for light vehicles on site, and there [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > sale throughout the mining areas in CQ. Haven't yet asked about the > prices, since I hadn't previously thought of a use for one. :)) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ would be good for conveying the copious amounts of bullshit you produce...(hint..buy two) Signaturejonz "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind - boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - Gene Spafford,1992 >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcRso-wu_fU >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sale throughout the mining areas in CQ. Haven't yet asked about the > prices, since I hadn't previously thought of a use for one. :)) Goes with the line "well dear you always wanted a compact". ;-). --- Regards Dan, > : Pretty sure that ABS and SRS airbags became standard equipment on the > : '09 model. The entire dash is new this year. > : One story I heard was that a lot of mine sites were specifying dual > : airbags as part of minimum spec for light vehicles on site, and there > : were increasing numbers of sites changing to patrols because of the > : lack of airbags on landcruisers. Toyota wanted to claw back their > : share of the mine market, as it is quite lucrative... > For the life of me I cant figure out why?!?!?!?!?!? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcRso-wu_fU LOL. Why wouldn't Toyota want a part of the action? The vehicle manufacturer and dealer make their money from the sale, and they saved on warranty costs on that vehicle. :-p SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. : > : Pretty sure that ABS and SRS airbags became standard equipment on the : > : '09 model. The entire dash is new this year. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : manufacturer and dealer make their money from the sale, and they : saved on warranty costs on that vehicle. :-p I wonder what they did with the one in the video. Id love to take it to the dealer and explain that "It feels a little flat this one...." > "Athol" <athol_SPIT_SPAM@idl.net.au> wrote in message > : LOL. Why wouldn't Toyota want a part of the action? The vehicle > : manufacturer and dealer make their money from the sale, and they > : saved on warranty costs on that vehicle. :-p > I wonder what they did with the one in the video. Id love to take it to the dealer and explain that > "It feels a little flat this one...." "I can't get it to start." :-p SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. >> "Athol" <athol_SPIT_SPAM@idl.net.au> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > "I can't get it to start." :-p I thought it badly needed a wheel alignment! :-P > : > And why pick on the Chinese? Until very recently you could pay $80k > : > for a fully optioned Landcruiser ute with most "safety features", [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > ;o) "SMIDSY!" > All that cheapness comes at a price... > > http://fat.ly/ouwsw "Great (if-you-don't-drive-it-into-a) Wall" > All that cheapness comes at a price... > > http://www.themotorreport.com.au/43501/proton-jumbuck-great-wall-utes-perform-po orly-in-ancap-crash-safety-tests/ Not a new issue. When the original Minis came out there were safety concerns raised about them too. One of the manufacturers' representatives did make an excellent point at the time though, the most important safety component is the "nut behind the wheel". In short, all of these safety items are little more than patchwork solutions that encourage slack attitudes toward driving. More lives would be saved by people actually learning to drive properly than by any amount of airbags. Of course that wouldn't be a politically popular move and therefore is unlikely to be addressed by governments. Much easier to blame "unsafe cars" for the road toll. SignatureDeevo Geraldton Western Australia >> All that cheapness comes at a price... >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > therefore is unlikely to be addressed by governments. Much easier to > blame "unsafe cars" for the road toll. Since you can't control other fuckwits on the road nor the unusual events can can lead up to a crash, the best you can do is have the extra safety features. >>> All that cheapness comes at a price... >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > can can lead up to a crash, the best you can do is have the extra safety > features. But that's the point. Why can't you control the other fuckwits on the road? Is it the said fuckwits or the fuckwits in positions of authority that granted them licences in the first place? When I got my motorcycle licence many years back the instructor I went through used to insist on three things from his students. 1. At least one lesson on the open highway. 2. At least one lesson at night. 3. After you got your licence you attend an advanced riding course at the then National Safety Council centre in Perth. The latter was closed down about twenty years ago due to government funding cutbacks but I can honestly say that techniques I learned from going through that course have saved my life on at least three occasions since. Instead of funding more speed cameras and the like would it not save more lives if a higher standard of driver education and testing were put into place? Of course it wouldn't be a popular move as many of the previously mentioned "fuckwits" consider a drivers licence their right but still having better and more capable drivers on our road would constitute a far more effective way of reducing the road toll. SignatureDeevo Geraldton Western Australia > >>> All that cheapness comes at a price... > >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > better and more capable drivers on our road would constitute a far more > effective way of reducing the road toll. No arguments there and I'm still here, relatively uninjured, but I've still had a vehicle go seriously off road and roll 3 times after the steering broke, avoided a brakelesss and fully laden steel truck coming through a red light over a crest on my right at about 80Km/h. Mechanical failures (or medical emergencies) can be completely unexpected, as can their results. > All that cheapness comes at a price... > > http://www.themotorreport.com.au/43501/proton-jumbuck-great-wall-utes-perform-po orly-in-ancap-crash-safety-tests/ I guess why they call it "Great Wall Motors" bloody thing would crumble if it plowed into a wall made out of polystyrene. Even bird sh.t dropping on it would probably destroy it completely. ;-) --- Regards Dan. |
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