 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Australian Car Forums / General Car Topics (Australian group) / February 2005Adventura vs Territory - what's the score?
Around the urbs of Melbourne you see bugger all Adventuras and lots of Territories, so I assumed that Ford had Holden well beaten in this market. But I just got back from a return trip to Lakes Entrance. I saw no Territories and 6 or 7 Adventuras, including 2 at the caravan park where we are staying. I left the wife and kids there, have to go back Wednesday to pick 'em up. Maybe the Adventura is preferred by the boat and van towing set. Or maybe they are just more popular out in that part of the country I also saw quite a few Crewman and Cross8, another rarity in Melbourne. I could understand how they would be popular out there. Just anecdotal eveidence, I know, Does anyone know the official numbers? Vossaka >Maybe the Adventura is preferred by the boat and van towing set. Or maybe >they are just more popular out in that part of the country I also saw quite >a few Crewman and Cross8, another rarity in Melbourne. I could understand >how they would be popular out there. > >Just anecdotal eveidence, I know, Does anyone know the official numbers? adventra is just a slightly jacked up commodore wagon. the benefit of AWD on it is absolutely marginal in 99.9% of cases. holden have been flogging cars on the strength of the badge for a long time, i guess they found the edge of the envelope with the adventra --- vn commodore transmission swap online manual http://www.freewebs.com/sheik_yerbouti > Just anecdotal eveidence, I know, Does anyone know the official numbers? 2004 Sales: Territory 13,583 Adventra 2,500 And it's even more one-sided than it looks when you consider that the Territory wasn't on sale for the full year but the Adventra was. The December figures alone were 2,184 Territorys and 147 Adventras. It will be interesting to see how much of a difference the arrival of a V6 Adventra makes. ... > It will be interesting to see how much of a > difference the arrival of a V6 Adventra makes. ... I doubt much; it won't reduce fuel usage much at all, nor vehicle cost. I think Holden knew it'd be a bit like this initially, 'cos they're more like real cars than big fugly trucks, and people currently want big fugly trucks. However, I do suspect Holden may have a plan to put more AWD in more cars as new models come out, and if they can do that while having absorbed some of the development cost on the people who just had to have a Holden now (& hence bought the relatively undercooked Adventra), they could have a good marketing advantage in future.  Signature--- Forg! -DUH#6- ---------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- Brought to you by DUH!Inc. DUH!Inc; Building Synergistic Wellness For All > ... > > It will be interesting to see how much of a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > like real cars than big fugly trucks, and people currently want big fugly > trucks. So how do you explain the success of the Forester and Outback? Neither are big or ugly. The Commy wagon body that its based on seems to be the Adventura's biggest drawback. Firstly its got too much overhang at both ends for anything but the mildest off road work, secondly it just looks too much like a bog standard Commodore wagon, of which there are hundreds of thousands. Vossaka >However, I do suspect Holden may have a plan to put more AWD in more cars >as new models come out, and if they can do that while having absorbed some >of the development cost on the people who just had to have a Holden now (& >hence bought the relatively undercooked Adventra), they could have a good >marketing advantage in future. > I doubt much; it won't reduce fuel usage much at all, nor vehicle cost. > > I think Holden knew it'd be a bit like this initially, 'cos they're more > like real cars than big fugly trucks, and people currently want big > fugly trucks. Holden knew straight away it was going to be a low volume seller but as you say in the rest of your post there are more developments in the making with the AWD in other coming up models. Although star performance Adevtra is a bit of a beast and yes the AWD system can handle oodles of forced induction torque. :-) SignatureRegards Dan Although star performance > Adevtra Woops Adventra I best to get it bloody right. :-p SignatureRegards Dan ... > Although star performance Adevtra is a bit > of a beast and yes the AWD system can handle > oodles of forced induction torque. :-) ... Hmmm ... inside info on the Coupe4 was that it didn't get any more power 'cos the drivetrain couldn't handle the grunt. Could be interesting to see how long force-fed ones _really_ last. Signature--- Forg! -DUH#6- ---------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- Brought to you by DUH!Inc. DUH!Inc; Building Synergistic Wellness For All > ... > > Hmmm ... inside info on the Coupe4 was that it didn't get any more power > 'cos the drivetrain couldn't handle the grunt. Could be interesting to > see how long force-fed ones _really_ last. So far so good with star performance Adventra. apparently the real reason why the power is down on the coupe 4 is due to the headers the AWD system takes a bit of room so HSV had to use standard type of headers. But tuners knows best with LS1 Edit and other ways to get more power out reliably. SignatureRegards Dan ... > apparently the real reason why the power > is down on the coupe 4 is due to the headers > the AWD system takes a bit of room so HSV > had to use standard type of headers. ... That's what Holden claimed, anyway. Signature--- Forg! -DUH#6- ---------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- Brought to you by DUH!Inc. DUH!Inc; Building Synergistic Wellness For All > ... > > apparently the real reason why the power [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That's what Holden claimed, anyway. Agree with you on that, Forg. Despite the fact I own and drive a (non-Adventra) Holden - not a bad car, either, sorry Pesty - its the truth that what Holden say and what the real reason is are two separate things. But it shouldn't be that much of a problem to fix, as the diffs used are open rather than Torsen, and open diffs can take a fair bit - think Ford 9". Steve >... > > Although star performance Adevtra is a bit [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >'cos the drivetrain couldn't handle the grunt. Could be interesting to >see how long force-fed ones _really_ last. have you ever blasted a WRX off the line? it's absolutely brutal on the transmission, as there is little give from the tyres thanks to the AWD. --- vn commodore transmission swap online manual http://www.freewebs.com/sheik_yerbouti > ... > > Although star performance Adevtra is a bit of a beast and yes the AWD [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 'cos the drivetrain couldn't handle the grunt. Could be interesting to > see how long force-fed ones _really_ last. Didn't stop CSV from upping the power in their AWD, 290Kw in the VY series. http://www.csvaustralia.com/vyrange.htm Signaturea9x5l >> ... >> > Although star performance Adevtra is a bit of a beast and yes the AWD [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >http://www.csvaustralia.com/vyrange.htm no mention of warranty on their site i can find --- vn commodore transmission swap online manual http://www.freewebs.com/sheik_yerbouti >>> ... >>> > Although star performance Adevtra is a bit of a beast and yes the AWD [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > no mention of warranty on their site i can find Thats no surprise, their website sucks :-) Signaturea9x5l g the power in their AWD, 290Kw in the VY >>>series. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Thats no surprise, their website sucks :-) did you notice the doof music? they certainly know their customer :) --- vn commodore transmission swap online manual http://www.freewebs.com/sheik_yerbouti >> Hmmm ... inside info on the Coupe4 was that it didn't get any more power >> 'cos the drivetrain couldn't handle the grunt. Could be interesting to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >http://www.csvaustralia.com/vyrange.htm --- vn commodore transmission swap online manual http://www.freewebs.com/sheik_yerbouti >Holden knew straight away it was going to be a low volume seller but as >you say in the rest of your post there are more developments in the >making with the AWD in other coming up models. Although star performance >Adevtra is a bit of a beast and yes the AWD system can handle oodles of >forced induction torque. :-) Gawd only knows how much they spent per unit sold flogging the damn things..... DS On 23/1/05 9:09 PM, in article aCLId.472$e77.24017@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au, >> I doubt much; it won't reduce fuel usage much at all, nor vehicle cost. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Adevtra is a bit of a beast and yes the AWD system can handle oodles of > forced induction torque. :-) They Spend $125 million over 3 years developing it and you think they knew it was going to be a low volume seller? Yeah right. Take those Holden coloured glasses off Dan. > They Spend $125 million over 3 years developing it and you think they knew > it was going to be a low volume seller? Yeah right. Take those Holden > coloured glasses off Dan. That $125 million was mostly sucked up by the AWD system, which is going to be applied to a lot more products other than the Adventra come VE, I would think. >>They Spend $125 million over 3 years developing it and you think they knew >>it was going to be a low volume seller? Yeah right. Take those Holden >>coloured glasses off Dan. It is "LOW VOLUME" seller and Holden knows that at the start. Jesus christ your dim. Why not remove your Mitsubishi coloured glasses off first. > That $125 million was mostly sucked up by the AWD system, which is going to > be applied to a lot more products other than the Adventra come VE, I would > think. Someone with some common sence for once. :-) SignatureRegards Dan > That $125 million was mostly sucked up by the AWD system, which is going > to be applied to a lot more products other than the Adventra come VE, I > would think. Agreed. I think Holden's effort with the Adventra was a far more sensible approach than the Territory from a financial point of view. They haven't spent a shitload of money to test the market, and the money they *have* spent has largely been on driveline components which can be used in other projects. That's not to say Ford haven't done a very good job with the Territory, as they have, but on current sales figures they'll be waiting an *awfully* long time to get their money back. -- Regards, Noddy. >> That $125 million was mostly sucked up by the AWD system, which is going >> to be applied to a lot more products other than the Adventra come VE, I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > shitload of money to test the market, and the money they *have* spent has > largely been on driveline components which can be used in other projects. The driveline components for the AWD's are exactly the same for both the Territory and Adventra... the development money was not excessive for either company in this area... Ford used the same 4L I6 and gearbox from Falcon, with a different gear ratio to allow for the increased weight. Hardly big development dollars... As far as development costs were I thought they had doubled the $250mil for the Adventra in the development of the Territory (I might be wrong there though), and when you consider that Ford have sold (up to December 2004), 13583 Territories from their July release date, while Holden's plant just managed to sell their 2500 Adventra's they had planned to sell per year. If we imagine that the July release date was January, we could have seen figures well in excess of 25000 vehicles for Ford. So Ford are outselling Adventra 10 to 1 and you say Territory is the flop??? In fact 10 to 1 is the year's average sales advantage, but if you look at December in isolation there were 147 of the Adventra's registered, while 2184 Terri's found homes. That's almost 20-1! SL > That's not to say Ford haven't done a very good job with the Territory, as > they have, but on current sales figures they'll be waiting an *awfully* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. "TheTaipan" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message news:41f59b68$0$2424 > The driveline components for the AWD's are exactly the same for both the > Territory and Adventra... the development money was not excessive for > either company in this area... You sure about that? *All* the driveline components? :) > Ford used the same 4L I6 and gearbox from Falcon, with a different gear > ratio to allow for the increased weight. Hardly big development > dollars... Not on their own, no, but Ford has reputedly sunk 500 million into the Terry, and that's a fuckload of dosh to get back on sales of well under 2000 units per month. Like it or hate it, the essential truth is that the Terry owes Ford shitloads more than the Adventra owes Holden, and given the sales figures of both I'd say neither did their homework properly. > As far as development costs were I thought they had doubled the $250mil > for the Adventra in the development of the Territory (I might be wrong [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have seen figures well in excess of 25000 vehicles for Ford. So Ford are > outselling Adventra 10 to 1 and you say Territory is the flop??? Where did I say that? :) The Terry might be outselling the Adventra 10 to 1, but that's only a polite way of saying it's selling better to make you Ford fans feel good about yourselves. Sure it's selling better, but given that it's sold less than 15000 units *in total* it's hardly fair to call it a resounding sales success. More Magna's have been sold in that time :) > In fact 10 to 1 is the year's average sales advantage, but if you look at > December in isolation there were 147 of the Adventra's registered, while > 2184 Terri's found homes. That's almost 20-1! Nice. They probably sell 20 times the number of Terry's to Mercedes SLK's as well, and that about as relevant a comparison as an Adventra to a Territory if you want to be realistic. -- Regards, Noddy. > "TheTaipan" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message news:41f59b68$0$2424 > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You sure about that? *All* the driveline components? :) Different engine, gearbox, OK, but the AWD gear is exactly the same... The software which runs the TC, DSC, ABS, ABC, XYZ, stuff is Bosch on both as well, but the Ford stuff is a whole generation of software higher spec - that's where some dosh was spent. >> Ford used the same 4L I6 and gearbox from Falcon, with a different gear >> ratio to allow for the increased weight. Hardly big development [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Where did I say that? :) The suggestion is there - If I'm putting words into your mouth, then I retract that - but I read that as the intention of your comment. ie if something is not selling enough to make a profit or at least break even - its a flop in my opinion... > The Terry might be outselling the Adventra 10 to 1, but that's only a > polite way of saying it's selling better to make you Ford fans feel good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > More Magna's have been sold in that time :) 15000 is a six month total though... 30000 units might easily be achievable in a full year - that's not too bad... there are only so many people who are going to need 5-7 seat wagons/SUV's/crossover vehicles/people movers or whatever category the "Motoring Industry" decides... And by the way from the figures I managed to find with Magna on it I got 14000... for a full year... 7655 Klugers just out of interest too... >> In fact 10 to 1 is the year's average sales advantage, but if you look at >> December in isolation there were 147 of the Adventra's registered, while [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > well, and that about as relevant a comparison as an Adventra to a > Territory if you want to be realistic. Well the stats of most relevance would be to include the profit margins, but somehow neither my local Ford or Holden dealer were willing to cooperate there?!? :) I see what your saying - the amount spent on development was significant and advertised as double that of the Holden, but considering Fiona's discount on some of the Ford products is close to 10G's there is obviously quite a substantial profit margin in Falcon and Territory, unlike Laser/Focus where the discounts are more like hundreds of dollars... at the end of the day - if I werer in business and were selling 15000 units of a product with a $10K profit, I'd be happy enough... If they haven't already recouped development costs, I'm sure its not long away... SL >I see what your saying - the amount spent on development was significant and >advertised as double that of the Holden, but considering Fiona's discount on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >profit, I'd be happy enough... If they haven't already recouped development >costs, I'm sure its not long away... Also, Holden were able to knock circa $6K off the price of the Adventra, so there was at the very minimum, $6K profit in that vehicle. At a conservative 1700 Terri/month and $10K profit. It would take around 2.5 years to pay off the Terri development costs. Being ultra kind to Holden and giving them 200 Adventra sales/month and a $12K profit per unit = a profit of lets say $29,000,000 P/A or 8 or so years to pay off the Adventra development costs. These figures of course are simplistic and probably arn't near reality but the huge gap must be representative of who did there homework better than the other. Holden need the V6 version to take off in a big way although this will have dev costs to recoupe too and then the al new Commodore platform will need AWD adaption. > Also, Holden were able to knock circa $6K off the price of the > Adventra, so there was at the very minimum, $6K profit in that > vehicle. > > At a conservative 1700 Terri/month and $10K profit. It would take > around 2.5 years to pay off the Terri development costs. Assuming that those profit figures are anywhere near accurate. I would be very surprised if Ford is making anywhere near $10k on the sale of every Terry, and I *wouldn't* be surprised if Holden were selling Adventra's at a loss simply to get them on the roads to be "seen". > Being ultra kind to Holden and giving them 200 Adventra sales/month > and a $12K profit per unit = a profit of lets say $29,000,000 P/A or 8 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but the huge gap must be representative of who did there homework > better than the other. Like I said, they only work if you know that's what they're making. If was was indeed making 10 large on each Terry, then I expect Holden would be making over double that and then some on each Adventra given it's high sticker price. > Holden need the V6 version to take off in a big way although this will > have dev costs to recoupe too and then the al new Commodore platform > will need AWD adaption. That can't be too tough considering they have it in effect right now. -- Regards, Noddy. >> Also, Holden were able to knock circa $6K off the price of the >> Adventra, so there was at the very minimum, $6K profit in that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >of every Terry, and I *wouldn't* be surprised if Holden were selling >Adventra's at a loss simply to get them on the roads to be "seen". You would have to conclude that as Simons wife got a 10K discount on a 2wd Terri that they are making 10K on the base models, unless they make a loss on selling to staff wich I seriously doubt. They of course will make more on the upmarket Terris. >> Being ultra kind to Holden and giving them 200 Adventra sales/month >> and a $12K profit per unit = a profit of lets say $29,000,000 P/A or 8 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >be making over double that and then some on each Adventra given it's high >sticker price. It has an imported V8 engine which I would suggest is a fair bit more expensive than the Terri, but your probably right as the base Adventra is circa $49K so revise my figures down to say 5 years for the Adventra. >> Holden need the V6 version to take off in a big way although this will >> have dev costs to recoupe too and then the al new Commodore platform >> will need AWD adaption. > >That can't be too tough considering they have it in effect right now. Tre, but there will still be dev/tooling costs to recoupe with the V6 intro. > >> Also, Holden were able to knock circa $6K off the price of the > >> Adventra, so there was at the very minimum, $6K profit in that [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > make a loss on selling to staff wich I seriously doubt. They of course > will make more on the upmarket Terris. When I worked at Ford the dealers made more money on a car sale than Ford so if you cut out the dealers profit then thats a big saving. Unless things have changed employees get their car at cost plus a fee which is paid to the dealer for handling the car. Even if the profit marging on a Terri is $10,000 Ford would get less than half of it. Daryl >When I worked at Ford the dealers made more money on a car sale than >Ford so if you cut out the dealers profit then thats a big saving. Can you give examples Daryl? I was told an EL Falcon costs circa $16K to make >Unless things have changed employees get their car at cost plus a fee >which is paid to the dealer for handling the car. >Even if the profit marging on a Terri is $10,000 Ford would get less >than half of it. > >When I worked at Ford the dealers made more money on a car sale than > >Ford so if you cut out the dealers profit then thats a big saving. > > Can you give examples Daryl? I was told an EL Falcon costs circa > $16K to make Its been over 20 yrs since I worked at Ford so I could only guess at the numbers but 20 yrs ago it was something like 60% of the mark up on the car would go to the dealer the company got the rest. In the late 70's Ford made a loss on every car they made and only survived on profits from spare parts sales, I remember attending a meeting in about 1979 where it was announced that for the first time the spare parts dept had made $10,000,000 profit. I don't know about an EL but when I worked in the truck plant in 1982 I used to order engines from Geelong, a fully built up ready to run 5.8lt engine cost the truck plant about $400.00 and thats after Geelong plant had put their mark up on it so cost was less than $400.00. Daryl >> >When I worked at Ford the dealers made more money on a car sale than >> >Ford so if you cut out the dealers profit then thats a big saving. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >numbers but 20 yrs ago it was something like 60% of the mark up on the >car would go to the dealer the company got the rest. I forget the dealer profit on BA Falcons but it was around $3K which is what the dealer had to play with on the deal. If fleet discounts where offered, FoMoCo would offer a rebate of a few hundred depending on the fleet level discount. In Practice, unless there were significant fleet deals at a dealer, they didn't bother reclaiming the money. At the highest level of fleet discount (which is what Simons wife got), you can get an XR6 on the road for around $32K which is around $10K discount, this discount level is what govt. departments are on and at least in the case of the BA with a high recoupement and govt' sales accounting for maybe 40% of Falcon sales, I can't imagine them making a loss. >In the late 70's Ford made a loss on every car they made and only >survived on profits from spare parts sales, I remember attending a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >engine cost the truck plant about $400.00 and thats after Geelong plant >had put their mark up on it so cost was less than $400.00. Thanks Daryl, interesting info. You mentioned the engine plant also made a profit from the engine which is fairly standard intercompany practice so there are hidden profits that arn't shared with the dealer for FoMoCo. > You would have to conclude that as Simons wife got a 10K discount on a > 2wd Terri that they are making 10K on the base models, unless they > make a loss on selling to staff wich I seriously doubt. They of course > will make more on the upmarket Terris. I don't know what Simon's wife's discount was, but if it was $10k on the sticker price, not all of that is Ford's profit margin. > It has an imported V8 engine which I would suggest is a fair bit more > expensive than the Terri, but your probably right as the base Adventra > is circa $49K so revise my figures down to say 5 years for the > Adventra. New crate GenIII's can be had for 5 grand, and I expect Holden is paying shitloads less than that, and would be comparable to the price of a Ford engine. You have to bear in mind that Holden has no tooling costs to pay for, which makes their car cheaper again to build. > Tre, but there will still be dev/tooling costs to recoupe with the V6 > intro. Which would be minimal I expect. -- Regards, Noddy. >> You would have to conclude that as Simons wife got a 10K discount on a >> 2wd Terri that they are making 10K on the base models, unless they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I don't know what Simon's wife's discount was, but if it was $10k on the >sticker price, not all of that is Ford's profit margin. Who else gets a share then? >> It has an imported V8 engine which I would suggest is a fair bit more >> expensive than the Terri, but your probably right as the base Adventra [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >shitloads less than that, and would be comparable to the price of a Ford >engine. Id be surprised if the GenIII is of similar cost to a Falcon 6. >You have to bear in mind that Holden has no tooling costs to pay for, which >makes their car cheaper again to build. and the tooling for the Terri 6 pot is shared with the Falcon. >> Tre, but there will still be dev/tooling costs to recoupe with the V6 >> intro. > >Which would be minimal I expect. Quite possibly, but never the less, something to be recouped. Would it require lower spec drivetrain components than the V8 for instance, these have to be tested, I asusme some sort of unique sump has to be developed, > >> You would have to conclude that as Simons wife got a 10K discount on a > >> 2wd Terri that they are making 10K on the base models, unless they [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > these have to be tested, I asusme some sort of unique sump has to be > developed, > >> You would have to conclude that as Simons wife got a 10K discount on a > >> 2wd Terri that they are making 10K on the base models, unless they [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Id be surprised if the GenIII is of similar cost to a Falcon 6. Could be less, the Gen 3 would be sold in big numbers in the USA so the economies of scale would be a lot better than for the Ford I6. Daryl > Could be less, the Gen 3 would be sold in big numbers in the USA so the > economies of scale would be a lot better than for the Ford I6. AFAIK the 5.7L all alloy gen 3 is only put in the Corvette and our commodores > Who else gets a share then? The dealer and the transport company. Dealers generally make as much as the manufacturer on the sale, but that's not to say the margin is huge on a car like a Falcadore. If cost out the door was ten grand cheaper than retail sticker price, then it'd be fairly safe to assume that half of that saving was the dealer's cut. > Id be surprised if the GenIII is of similar cost to a Falcon 6. Ring a Ford dealer and find out how much a bare long Falcon 6 engine is to buy in the crate. You might be *really* surprised. Last time I priced one for an AU, they were 4700 bucks, and that's *bare*.... > and the tooling for the Terri 6 pot is shared with the Falcon. Yeah, but you're just talking about the engine. The Territory has fuckloads more setup and production costs involved with it than the Adventra, which is little more than a slightly modified Commodore wagon. > Quite possibly, but never the less, something to be recouped. Would it > require lower spec drivetrain components than the V8 for instance, > these have to be tested, I asusme some sort of unique sump has to be > developed, Probably. If there was a buck to be saved by using cheaper driveline components to suit the lower output engine, I expect it would be.... -- Regards, Noddy. >> Who else gets a share then? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >door was ten grand cheaper than retail sticker price, then it'd be fairly >safe to assume that half of that saving was the dealer's cut. I'll try and find out the actual cost of a Terri to the dealer. In the Falcons case, its circa 3K profit to the dealer using rrp, they often make more money from dealer delivery after discounting the car. >> Id be surprised if the GenIII is of similar cost to a Falcon 6. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Last time I priced one for an AU, they were 4700 bucks, and that's >*bare*.... and the $5K rice for a gen III is dealer though? >> and the tooling for the Terri 6 pot is shared with the Falcon. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >than the Adventra, which is little more than a slightly modified Commodore >wagon. Of course, but i've gone through all that before. >> Quite possibly, but never the less, something to be recouped. Would it >> require lower spec drivetrain components than the V8 for instance, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Regards, >Noddy. > I'll try and find out the actual cost of a Terri to the dealer. In the > Falcons case, its circa 3K profit to the dealer using rrp, they often > make more money from dealer delivery after discounting the car. Things like dealer delivery charges were campaigned for and allowed because there sometimes isn't a lot of money in a car sale for the dealer. Still, in having said that, I'd be very surprised if there was any less than three grand in the sale of a new Falcon. Unless you know a dealer principal who's prepared to risk losing his franchise by showing you the actual buy price, you aren't ever going to find out.... > and the $5K rice for a gen III is dealer though? No, but that's irrelevant. GenIII's can be had anywhere for not a lot of money, and that's part of the reason why they're cheap (relatively speaking). I only listed the Ford dealer price for the AU engine because a Ford dealer was the only outlet you could get a new Falcon 6 crate motor from. I'm sure Holden would probably want more than five dimes for a crate GenIII, but that's useless info if you can buy them cheaper through other avenues. Sadly, you can't do the same with a Falcon 6 pot. -- Regards, Noddy. >> I'll try and find out the actual cost of a Terri to the dealer. In the >> Falcons case, its circa 3K profit to the dealer using rrp, they often [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >franchise by showing you the actual buy price, you aren't ever going to find >out.... You may recalll a mate who was a Ford sales manager don't you? he left the industry and he showed me the inner workings of the dealership. >> and the $5K rice for a gen III is dealer though? > >No, but that's irrelevant. What is relevent is how much Holden buy the Gen III from GM for. Street price isn't an accurate guage, although I do get your point. > You may recalll a mate who was a Ford sales manager don't you? he left > the industry and he showed me the inner workings of the dealership. Vaguely. Dealer buy price depends on a great deal, such as if it's a stock item (like a basic vanila model that's lying around somewhere waiting for an owner), or a special order that has to be built. The company offers discounts on unsold stock. > What is relevent is how much Holden buy the Gen III from GM for. > Street price isn't an accurate guage, although I do get your point. The only relevant thing is how much you can buy either for from whatever outlet. -- Regards, Noddy. >"TheTaipan" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message news:41f59b68$0$2424 > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >You sure about that? *All* the driveline components? :) The transfer case on both vehicles is the same Bosch system - DSP8 or something like that. Diffs I don't know about, but I suspect the Terri uses a Dna unit for the rear as does the Commodore? I have no idea about the front difs. >> Ford used the same 4L I6 and gearbox from Falcon, with a different gear >> ratio to allow for the increased weight. Hardly big development [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Terry, and that's a fuckload of dosh to get back on sales of well under 2000 >units per month. Like Simon, I recall the $250 million figure for the Adventra. >Like it or hate it, the essential truth is that the Terry owes Ford >shitloads more than the Adventra owes Holden, and given the sales figures of >both I'd say neither did their homework properly. I vaguely recall Ford predicting higher sales than that achieved for the Terri so far and thinking they must be dreaming. Holden would need to shift the AWD to a mainstream Commodore model such as the SS to recouope the Adventra/AWD development $$'s, maybe thats there medium term plan? although they are probably busy on then all new Commodore platform atm. >> As far as development costs were I thought they had doubled the $250mil >> for the Adventra in the development of the Territory (I might be wrong [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >15000 units *in total* it's hardly fair to call it a resounding sales >success. Its a success in its marketing segment, but the questions is it a success in Fords bean counter department? >More Magna's have been sold in that time :) No, there wasn't. The Territory spanked the Magna silly in the June - Dec 04 period. Magnas - 8835 Territory - 12537 >> In fact 10 to 1 is the year's average sales advantage, but if you look at >> December in isolation there were 147 of the Adventra's registered, while [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and that about as relevant a comparison as an Adventra to a Territory if you >want to be realistic. Huh, arn't we comparing the success of the Terri vs Adventra here? > The transfer case on both vehicles is the same Bosch system - DSP8 or > something like that. I heard that they were different versions of the same unit, based on the expected torque output of their intended engines. > Like Simon, I recall the $250 million figure for the Adventra. I really don't know, other than it being obvious that the Adventra owes Holden a lot less money than the Terry owes Ford. > I vaguely recall Ford predicting higher sales than that achieved for > the Terri so far and thinking they must be dreaming. Possibly. Either way, they can't be completely happy with sales figures so far. > Holden would need to shift the AWD to a mainstream Commodore model > such as the SS to recouope the Adventra/AWD development $$'s, maybe > thats there medium term plan? although they are probably busy on then > all new Commodore platform atm. Agreed. However, that's the benefit of Holden's approach, and what leads me to think that the Adventra is largely an "experiment". They get the idea out there, get the bugs sorted, and then play with the idea of a 300kw AWD HSV version. > Its a success in its marketing segment, but the questions is it a > success in Fords bean counter department? They should be one and the same, shouldn't they? I mean, if it's a knockout in it's market segmment, then it should be selling like there's no tomorrow. Unfortunately, it isn't, and that's the trouble. > No, there wasn't. The Territory spanked the Magna silly in the June - > Dec 04 period. > > Magnas - 8835 > Territory - 12537 Considering how absolutely appallingly ugly the Magna is, that doesn't particularly inflate the Territory's ego much :) > Huh, arn't we comparing the success of the Terri vs Adventra here? I wasn't, that was bought up by other people. My comments were initially about the Territory only. -- Regards, Noddy. > > The transfer case on both vehicles is the same Bosch system - DSP8 or > > something like that. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > that the Adventra is largely an "experiment". They get the idea out there, > get the bugs sorted, and then play with the idea of a 300kw AWD HSV version. I can't see how that would help their bottom line all that much, how many 300kw AWD Commodores probably with a price tag around $100,000.00 are they going to sell? > > Its a success in its marketing segment, but the questions is it a > > success in Fords bean counter department? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Considering how absolutely appallingly ugly the Magna is, that doesn't > particularly inflate the Territory's ego much :) Don't forget the very significant price difference, new Magnas can be had for about $20,000 less than a new Territory. Daryl > I can't see how that would help their bottom line all that much, how > many 300kw AWD Commodores probably with a price tag around $100,000.00 > are they going to sell? Not a lot I would expect, but it gives them scope to offer "scaled down" versions at a more affordable price. I don't doubt that an AWD version of the SS would be popular if it could be had for under ten grand extra. > Don't forget the very significant price difference, new Magnas can be > had for about $20,000 less than a new Territory. Absolutely. I'm also bearing in mind that anyone who buys a new Magna is probably not interested in a vehicle the likes of a Terry. They're probably not interested in anything at all really, except maybe for abstract art :) -- Regards, Noddy. > 300kw AWD Commodores With the added AWD, they'd possibly be pushing the 2000kg mark... that coupled with pushing drive through four wheels, she'd be a thirsty old girl. Interestingly, in looking up the car's current weight, I noticed the 250kW Commode runs 10.1:1 compression, but the fuel spec is 91 RON ULP. I would've thought that's pushing the crapness of ULP a bit far. Also noticed the 300kW V8 Commode weighs the same as a base model 6cyl Falcon. >> 300kw AWD Commodores > > With the added AWD, they'd possibly be pushing the 2000kg mark... that > coupled with pushing drive through four wheels, she'd be a thirsty old > girl. Not any worse than other AWD cars of similar spec(eg. Audi RS6). > Interestingly, in looking up the car's current weight, I noticed the > 250kW Commode runs 10.1:1 compression, but the fuel spec is 91 RON ULP. > I would've thought that's pushing the crapness of ULP a bit far. I think that's mostly due to better head design and use of aluminium. The new LS2 is 10.9:1 IIRC. > Also noticed the 300kW V8 Commode weighs the same as a base model 6cyl > Falcon. And probably uses less petrol :-) Signaturea9x5l "Diesel Damo" <Diesel_4WD@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message > With the added AWD, they'd possibly be pushing the 2000kg mark... that > coupled with pushing drive through four wheels, she'd be a thirsty old > girl. No doubt, but I don't think that would bother too many buyers. I mean, the Territory is selling, and they drink fuel like a German Tank :) > Also noticed the 300kW V8 Commode weighs the same as a base model 6cyl > Falcon. That's because the Falcon is a bloated goat that *deperately* needs to talk to Jenny Craig. I thought they were going to address that sh.t in the series II..... -- Regards, Noddy. >> That $125 million was mostly sucked up by the AWD system, which is going >> to be applied to a lot more products other than the Adventra come VE, I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >shitload of money to test the market, and the money they *have* spent has >largely been on driveline components which can be used in other projects. The drivline components where largely off the shelf wern't they? I happen to prefer the Holden approach with the Adventra compared to Ford with the Territory but ii'm unsure it was a better choice from the financial standpoint. >That's not to say Ford haven't done a very good job with the Territory, as >they have, but on current sales figures they'll be waiting an *awfully* long >time to get their money back. True, and it will take Holden an awful long time to recover the development $$'s from the Adventra too, even when its transferred to other models as these will still be niche. > The drivline components where largely off the shelf wern't they? To a degree, but the Holden variant is somewhat tougher than that of the Terry so I'm told. I'd expect it to be as well being sadled up to a GenIII. > I happen to prefer the Holden approach with the Adventra compared to > Ford with the Territory but ii'm unsure it was a better choice from > the financial standpoint. You only have to look at the two cars to see that the Adventra only owes Holden pocket money development costs compared to the Territory, and with this in mind they can afford to get away with very low volume sales figures by comparison. As you say, the Adventra is a Niche vehicle while the Terry is a dedicated market competitor. They have nothing in common at all really apart from being "off road" vechiles of sorts, and comparing sales figures between the two is something Ford fans seem to like to do as a confidence booster :) > True, and it will take Holden an awful long time to recover the > development $$'s from the Adventra too, even when its transferred to > other models as these will still be niche. Perhaps, but you never know where they're going to take the platform. Personally, I think the Adventra is a "toe in the water" experiment that didn't cost a shitload of money, and while it's sales figures aren't spectacular I really don't think anyone ever expected them to be. They're selling just enough to justify the experiment, and it also gives them the scope to venture into other areas such as ute & HSV versions. By comparison, the Territory is an all out effort to capture a share of the "Toorak Tractor" market, and while I think it is a very good one for a first effort, people at Ford *must* be wishing that the thing was selling better than it actually is. As you say, it's leading sales in it's class, but it's a very low volume class to begin with, and they really need to be selling around double the number they are now to make the thing a viable sales success. -- Regards, Noddy. > > The drivline components where largely off the shelf wern't they? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > this in mind they can afford to get away with very low volume sales figures > by comparison. Spend peanuts and end up with a sh.t product like the Adventra, it looks like sh.t and performs even worse (off road) and its about as useful as tits on a bull. Only a dedicated Holden fan could be bothered with one and it appears even most of those aren't silly enough to buy one. The Terri is a lot closer to what the buying public want but it still falls short, lack of LPG or a diesel and lack of low range restrict its sales to wannabees. My Hilux and your Jeep make them both look next to useless off road and not much better on road. Daryl > Spend peanuts and end up with a sh.t product like the Adventra, it looks > like sh.t and performs even worse (off road) and its about as useful as > tits on a bull. And the territory is even worse off road... your point is?? > > Spend peanuts and end up with a sh.t product like the Adventra, it looks > > like sh.t and performs even worse (off road) and its about as useful as > > tits on a bull. > > And the territory is even worse off road... your point is?? Worse than the Adventra? That would be very odd if it was true, the Terri's approach and departure are much better than the Adventra so if their drive systems are similar the I would think the Terri must be better although neither would be all that useful off the bitumen. Daryl > Worse than the Adventra? > That would be very odd if it was true, the Terri's approach and > departure are much better than the Adventra so if their drive systems > are similar the I would think the Terri must be better although neither > would be all that useful off the bitumen. BUt the territory has less ground clearance..... > > Worse than the Adventra? > > That would be very odd if it was true, the Terri's approach and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > BUt the territory has less ground clearance..... Sure doesn't look that way but I haven't seen any figures or measured either. Ground clearance will mean a bad ramp over figure but the Terris much better approach and departure angles should compensate to a point. Daryl > Spend peanuts and end up with a sh.t product like the Adventra, it looks > like sh.t and performs even worse (off road) and its about as useful as > tits on a bull. I agree, but it's off road performance is on a par with other "soft roaders" apparently. > Only a dedicated Holden fan could be bothered with one and it appears > even most of those aren't silly enough to buy one. It's price is it's biggest drawback I think. > The Terri is a lot closer to what the buying public want but it still > falls short, lack of LPG or a diesel and lack of low range restrict its > sales to wannabees. Agreed. There is definitely a market for that sh.t out there, but they need to do something about the Territory's fuel consumption. When driven with any gusto, it's f.cking horrendous.... > My Hilux and your Jeep make them both look next to useless off road and > not much better on road. No doubt :) -- Regards, Noddy. >>Only a dedicated Holden fan could be bothered with one and it appears >>even most of those aren't silly enough to buy one. > > It's price is it's biggest drawback I think. I was seriously considering an top spec LX8 Adventra basically a Calais spec wagon with better ground clearance with AWD to boot. Then good ol common sence prevailed and I gots me a Calais instead. But it would of been an excellent tow beast though. :-) SignatureRegards Dan > I was seriously considering an top spec LX8 Adventra basically a Calais > spec wagon with better ground clearance with AWD to boot. Then good ol > common sence prevailed and I gots me a Calais instead. But it would of > been an excellent tow beast though. :-) Crap that means I could have one car that does what I wanted instead of having 2. Ahh well the EL wagon has been pretty damn good though. SignatureRegards Dan > effort, people at Ford *must* be wishing that the thing was selling better > than it actually is. As you say, it's leading sales in it's class, but it's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. url to proof ? around double the number they are now to make the thing a viable sales > success. or is this pulled from your arse ? ( guess which I belive) > or is this pulled from your arse ? > ( guess which I belive) Work out how much it cost them to build the thing, and then how much they've raised in sales.... Do the math (I know you can if you take your shoes and socks off) -- Regards, Noddy. >> or is this pulled from your arse ? >>( guess which I belive) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. So you DID pull it from your arse... along with a lot of other opinions... >> Just anecdotal eveidence, I know, Does anyone know the official numbers? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It will be interesting to see how much of a difference the arrival of a V6 > Adventra makes. Stuff all . People are after the whole "suv" look - not the audi/volvo 4WD station wagon thing . Surely holden was not expecting huge sales on this thing? However I think Holden are more going toward the "AWD"rather than 4WD similar to Subaru range where it is available across the board . A different segment altogther . Whereas regarding the Territory area AWD is not the issue - may as well done without it, it's more the High riding truck,/housewife /drop the kids off - it would be interesting , but i reckon most terry would not even have 4WD - most would be RWD,confirming the fact ? > Stuff all . People are after the whole "suv" look - not the audi/volvo 4WD > station wagon thing . Surely holden was not expecting huge sales on this [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > off - it would be interesting , but i reckon most terry would not even > have 4WD - most would be RWD,confirming the fact ? Two problems with your argument - the AWD system is exactly the same for both vehicles - the only difference is the Territory uses a higher spec of the same traction control system. 2ndly both vehicles are unable to vary power to front and rear diffs, therefore they are not similar to Subaru's AWD systems at all... Next thing you seem to have blundered over is the sales - Ford suggest that their AWD/RWD sales are about 50-50. Which indicates to me that Ford have pinched as much from the sales of AWD's and wagons as they have from people movers. I think it would be more interesting to see the figures of how many are 7 seaters as opposed to 5 seaters, as they really are the best value 7 seat vehicle on the Australian market. > Two problems with your argument - > the AWD system is exactly the same for both vehicles - the only difference > is the Territory uses a higher spec of the same traction control system. > 2ndly both vehicles are unable to vary power to front and rear diffs, > therefore they are not similar to Subaru's AWD systems at all... Can you provide more info on this? My understanding is the Adventra uses a variant of the Hummer system, with three open diffs and the locking action provided by the ABS (explanation greatly simplified) while the Territory uses a more traditional 4wd system. It would be nice if we could all at least argue from the same set of facts. Steve >> Two problems with your argument - >> the AWD system is exactly the same for both vehicles - the only difference [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >uses a more traditional 4wd system. It would be nice if we could all at >least argue from the same set of facts. They both use a Bosch 62/38% split transfer case/electronics. Its model is DSP8 from memory. As SImon has said, the Terri uses a more advanced version which has stability control. "TheTaipan" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message news:41f59d97$0$3872 > Next thing you seem to have blundered over is the sales - Ford suggest > that their AWD/RWD sales are about 50-50. This has been an official company statement, or merely a "suggestion"? Bearing in mind that if either one turned out to be a sales dud, Ford would be the last people to let you know. > Which indicates to me that Ford have pinched as much from the sales of > AWD's and wagons as they have from people movers. To anyone else who *doesn't* have their blue oval specs on, all it would indicate is that Ford is managing to sell a few vehicles in a market already abundent in under-performing and over priced cars. > I think it would be more interesting to see the figures of how many are 7 > seaters as opposed to 5 seaters, as they really are the best value 7 seat > vehicle on the Australian market. Best of their type, or best in general? There'd be a number of people movers that would make a Terry look sick in terms of "seats per dollar" that don't suffer from the Terry's hideous around town fuel consumption. -- Regards, Noddy. > "TheTaipan" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message news:41f59d97$0$3872 > >> Next thing you seem to have blundered over is the sales - Ford suggest >> that their AWD/RWD sales are about 50-50. > > This has been an official company statement, or merely a "suggestion"? Purely suggestion... ;) > Bearing in mind that if either one turned out to be a sales dud, Ford > would be the last people to let you know. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Regards, > Noddy. New vehicles, 7 seats, decent crash performance, with lap-sash belts for ALL occupants, third row seats that can accommodate full adult weights, reasonable versatility of use, good handling, decent power, good ride height for loading the twins baby capsules from both sides... and let's ask for a $45K price... Let's put a list together... Suzuki XL7 - appalling ride, too small, terrible handling, hardly powerful enough, didn't check out the presence of belts for the rear... next... Honda Odyssey - definitely a contender - wasn't available when I purchased my Terry, but I do prefer my cars to have a bonnet - especially in a head-on... otherwise everything I have heard is pretty good - 'cept a CRV engine pulling that much weight? NEXT... Kia Carnival - poor dynamics, poor quality, lacks power, again - no bonnet, not sure about the rear belts. Great value - if they stayed running, but I know of three that aren't... NEXT... Mitsubishi Grandis - came out after the Terry and wasn't available when I purchased, looks awful, again no crumple zone to the front... third row seat is closer to the boot door than Terry next... Toyota's Avensis Verso, Kluger AND Prado fail to offer centre lap-sash belts!!! On top of that they are more expensive and offer nothing Terry doesn't - with 2 of them obviously having an off-road advantage, as does the AWD Terry, but can't see me being able to use it more than a couple of times a year - and for that purpose I'd spend $5K and get an old Hilux ute - get real dirty and save the new car... Tarago too expensive Adventra too expensive Futura wagon not good enough when compared to Territory's value and extra seats... Territory - sticker price is reasonable - option for the third row is excellent value, its handling is well documented and known to all but yourself Noddy - excellent for a vehicle of its size and weight, power is a little on the low side - but again, in its class it's no slug... excellent versatility of seating positions, good levels of occupants for the first five seats, third row is reasonable for short trips, or for children on longer trips, with both myself and my wife being 6 foot tall, its appreciated that this is a vehicle we don't have to parachute or fall into, or on the other hand require a ladder to get in - the seat height is perfect, no dropping or climbing. Add to that the level of luxury in terms of switches and buttons equivalent to a slightly higher spec than the Futura, its a pretty well common sense thing to me... >> Just anecdotal eveidence, I know, Does anyone know the official numbers? > > 2004 Sales: > > Territory 13,583 > Adventra 2,500 Shee-it, that's more than 5 to 1. I knew Ford were ahead but I had no idea it was by that much. GMH must be sh.tting themselves. And they can't really move them with discounts because that would cut into other Commodore sales. Gippsland must be their only bright spot. Vossaka > And it's even more one-sided than it looks when you consider that the > Territory wasn't on sale for the full year but the Adventra was. The > December figures alone were 2,184 Territorys and 147 Adventras. > > It will be interesting to see how much of a difference the arrival of a V6 > Adventra makes. > Shee-it, that's more than 5 to 1. I knew Ford were ahead but I had no idea > it was by that much. GMH must be sh.tting themselves. And they can't really > move them with discounts because that would cut into other Commodore sales. > Gippsland must be their only bright spot. As I said with one of my posts Holden knew that the Adventra is a low volume seller. I don't think Holden isn't too worried about the sales of the Adventra because it isn't the mainstream in the model line up. SignatureRegards Dan >As I said with one of my posts Holden knew that the Adventra is a low >volume seller. I don't think Holden isn't too worried about the sales of >the Adventra because it isn't the mainstream in the model line up. i think that's a bit generous, they expected it to sell a lot more. they are surely losing money on it right now. --- vn commodore transmission swap online manual http://www.freewebs.com/sheik_yerbouti > i think that's a bit generous, they expected it to sell a lot more. > they are surely losing money on it right now. A lot of car companies lose money with niche models really. But they are pretty much breaking even with the VZ utes and SS models. So the Adevntra isn't going to break Holdens bank very much because they are still outselling Falcon and heh yeah Mitsubishi as well. ;-) SignatureRegards Dan > A lot of car companies lose money with niche models really. But they are > pretty much breaking even with the VZ utes and SS models. So the > Adevntra isn't going to break Holdens bank very much because they are > still outselling Falcon and heh yeah Mitsubishi as well. ;-) Better add out selling the Falcon with their mainstrain models. SignatureRegards Dan >> i think that's a bit generous, they expected it to sell a lot more. >> they are surely losing money on it right now. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Adevntra isn't going to break Holdens bank very much because they are >still outselling Falcon and heh yeah Mitsubishi as well. ;-) i don't really agree it was intended as a niche model. ford are showing what that segment is capable of with territory and if holden try to tell you they're happy with where adventra is, they're lying. yes i know companies do occasionally take losses on flagship models, but holden don't need to go down that road, they have very strong brand strength as it is. this is something you'd expect from someone else like ford (gt40 is a prime example). --- vn commodore transmission swap online manual http://www.freewebs.com/sheik_yerbouti From what I was aware they had planned to build 2500 for the first year with the option for higher sales if demand was high enough. From January to December they sold the originally planned 2500, but they only just scraped in... SL >>As I said with one of my posts Holden knew that the Adventra is a low >>volume seller. I don't think Holden isn't too worried about the sales of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > vn commodore transmission swap online manual > http://www.freewebs.com/sheik_yerbouti > Shee-it, that's more than 5 to 1. I knew Ford were ahead but I had no idea > it was by that much. GMH must be sh.tting themselves. And they can't really > move them with discounts because that would cut into other Commodore sales. > Gippsland must be their only bright spot. Why? The adventra was developed at a much lower expenditure than the Territory. Subsequently they can sell much less to recoup the cost. Supposedly the AWD V6 will retail for about the same cost as the base TX Territory AWD. > It will be interesting to see how much of a difference the arrival of a V6 > Adventra makes. It should make a difference as sales of the V8 model doubled (lol) per month with the price decrease. A 6 cylinder version for the price of an outback may make people sit up an notice. >Why? The adventra was developed at a much lower expenditure than the >Territory. >Subsequently they can sell much less to recoup the cost. IIRC, the Adventra cost Holden half of what the Terri cost Ford, so for arguments sake, need only sell half of the Terri sales. This isn't happening >Supposedly the AWD V6 will retail for about the same cost as the base TX >Territory AWD. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >A 6 cylinder version for the price of an outback may make people sit up an >notice. I have no doubt it will increase the sales, partially at the expense of V8 Adventra sales though and I doubt it will sell in huge volume as it doesn't have 'the look' > I have no doubt it will increase the sales, partially at the expense > of V8 Adventra sales though and I doubt it will sell in huge volume as > it doesn't have 'the look' It's not supposed to. -- Regards, Noddy. Not hard to figure out. They're both sh.t off road due to no low range, bad entry and exit angle, wheel travel (suspn. articulation) and ground clearance. However the Territory "looks" more like a fourby, and that's what soccer mums want. Smething that looks like the Lexus 470 that all the richie mums have. The trendy "must have a fourby cos I see them on the cappacino strip, and all the other mums have them, and they're safer than a hatchback" people don't want a jacked up Commode. 'nuff said. > Around the urbs of Melbourne you see bugger all Adventuras and lots of > Territories, so I assumed that Ford had Holden well beaten in this market. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Vossaka >Not hard to figure out. They're both sh.t off road due to no low range, bad >entry and exit angle, wheel travel (suspn. articulation) and ground [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >'nuff said. Spot on, and others in this thread have mentioned the same thing. Are you getting it yet Noddy? :) doesnt look like noddy has posted in this thread... > >Not hard to figure out. They're both sh.t off road due to no low range, bad > >entry and exit angle, wheel travel (suspn. articulation) and ground [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Spot on, and others in this thread have mentioned the same thing. Are > you getting it yet Noddy? :) > doesnt look like noddy has posted in this thread... Just did :) Not using my regular PC at the moment, so I'm not seeing all the posts. -- Regards, Noddy. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2010 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.