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Car Forum / Audi Cars / February 20052005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2
I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. BMW has put me in such a difficult position with their pricing, body design, and iDrive. The first time I saw a 2005 545i I was like 'YUCK!!!'. I mean I really wanted to like it but I just could not as hard as I tried. It truly looks terrible to me, my girlfriend had the exact same reaction. Meanwhile, the A6 is a very pedestrian Audi design - better in that it doesnt bother me. The Audi is limited to 130 MPH and although thats unfortunate, I think I've only exceeded that once in the 540i anyway, and just briefly. The 540i is slightly faster in acceleration thanks to the torque if not the HP. I know I'll like driving the BMW more, thats what got me the 540i. I've driven Audis - they are 'smooth' - real smooth, but Im not looking for smooth, I like 'fun'. Anyways - opinions? >I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wanted to like it but I just could not as hard as I tried. It truly > looks terrible to me, my girlfriend had the exact same reaction. And you like the new Audi styling with the big snoz? > Anyways - opinions? The latest Car & Driver likes it a lot, but they don't like the sport suspension. Floyd I'm a German car fan myself (have two Mercedes) and have been looking at the 5-series (hate iDrive) and the new A6 as well. However, I've had horrible experiences with Mercedes service, and a friend has had similar experience with his older Audi A6. I actually stopped in and looked at the new Acura RL yesterday, and I was very impressed overall. I didn't drive it however, and I'm sure its 300-HP V6 isn't in the same torque league as the German V8s. However, for $49,000 loaded with Navi, all-wheel-drive, e.t.c. (there are no options), it's a bargin. I just wish the backseat was bigger. Randy >I'm a German car fan myself (have two Mercedes) and have been looking at the >5-series (hate iDrive) and the new A6 as well. However, I've had horrible [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Randy Forget the Honda's. Err, Acura's. I looked at the TSX, TL and the G35X and found all wanting. A lot. Got an 2004 A4 1.8 q almost fully loaded. The Japanese are too much like American car makers: rather than finesse, they will give you too much HP for the front wheels and hope you don't get the implications of what they have done. And the cars themselves while priced 'well' miss on a few key areas (those areas are largely personal). Compare feature by feature and either Audi or BMW will win over the Japanese. Randy, I also looked at the RL -have driven twice now.. not the same class as BMW, but the standard features in the RL are great. Got the Blue Tooth working with my phone the last time I drive one. I'm thinking this way too.. but doubt I'll make the move to the RL.. but have not ruled it out yet. sc > I'm a German car fan myself (have two Mercedes) and have been looking at the > 5-series (hate iDrive) and the new A6 as well. However, I've had horrible [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Randy I think that the 130 mph limit is a bit understated. This may be done to keep the claim within tire speed ratings. At an on track driving 'school' last spring I was driving a friend's '04 S4 4.2 (which is also supposed to have a limit of 130) and was hitting 150+ on the straight with a lot of room to go. Tony > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Anyways - opinions? > At an on track driving 'school' last spring I was driving a friend's > '04 S4 4.2 (which is also supposed to have a limit of 130) and was > hitting 150+ on the straight with a lot of room to go. > > Tony According to the US specs, the S4 is electronically limited to 155 mph. And of course you can remove that limit by getting an aftermarket chip/software as well. Cheers, Pete >> At an on track driving 'school' last spring I was driving a friend's >> '04 S4 4.2 (which is also supposed to have a limit of 130) and was [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Pete Although I haven't taken mine up past that value, the limiter on the US S4 is on paper only (not actually turned on in the ECU software), according to some reputable sources on the AudiWorld forums. The car should top out at or around 170 (assuming you had a place that you could actually reach that speed). - Charlie In a previous posting, charlieg@ic.sunysb.edu (Charlie Giannetto) had the audacity to say: : Although I haven't taken mine up past that value, the limiter on the :US S4 is on paper only <Japanese voice> Ahh, rawsuit protection! ;} </Japanese voice> :(not actually turned on in the ECU software), :according to some reputable sources on the AudiWorld forums. The car :should top out at or around 170 (assuming you had a place that you :could actually reach that speed). Are you sure it's not actually limited at all, assuming the source rumour is correct? 'Cause I believe even the (original) Euro spec cars have a 155 mph governor... which I personally don't think is outrageous[ly low], but clearly a small proportion of owners does.  SignatureE.R. aka SJG aka Ricardo present location: vancouver bc canada refugee from the european union's evil bureaucracy >In a previous posting, charlieg@ic.sunysb.edu (Charlie >Giannetto) had the audacity to say: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >don't think is outrageous[ly low], but clearly a small >proportion of owners does. I've read of people exploring the limits of the car on AudiWorld, although I have no first hand experience. I believe that the limiter value is indeed set to 155 in the ECU but the limiter flag itself is actually set to false, which disables the function. The lack of a speed limiter isn't really an issue since the speed (even at 155) is still well beyond any legally acceptable level on any public road in the US. 155 is something that the European community has agreed on I believe so I'm not sure the fact that it might not be implemented on a US spec car would be all that significant. If you would like to look into this further, I suggest going to the AudiWorld.com or B6S4.com web sites and searching for information on "speed limiter" or "governor". - Charlie 04 S4 MT6 In a previous posting, charlieg@ic.sunysb.edu (Charlie Giannetto) had the audacity to say: :The lack of a :speed limiter isn't really an issue since the speed (even at 155) :is still well beyond any legally acceptable level on any public road :in the US. True, but then so is 95 mph! :} :155 is something that the European community has agreed :on I believe I understand it's just a gentleman's agreement between certain German mfrs. Porsche is not coöperating! :} SignatureE.R. aka SJG aka Ricardo present location: vancouver bc canada refugee from the european union's evil bureaucracy E.R. <red_starinfrench@email.kom> haute in die Tasten: > I understand it's just a gentleman's agreement between certain > German mfrs. Porsche is not coöperating! :} Exactly. The german manufacturers BMW, Mercedes and VW Group agreed upon making cars not faster than 155 mph. Maybe also other manufacturers took part, but they currently do not sell such fast cars in Germany. The reason for that was avoiding a state law (which would probably have limited the cars at a lower level) and avoiding a reckless speed race. They also wanted to avoid the need for use of expensive and uncomfortable high performance tires. When the agreeent was imposed some years ago, it was not regarded likely that the manufacturers would make sedans with 500 HP;-) Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this agreement to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits only the cars sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the Mercedes-AMG models can go faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher speed limits for their M-cars under certain condition (M3 CSL with 175 mph for buyers who can show a race drivers license). IMHO the marketing problem for the company is to sell the top of the line cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of the line. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen - Made in Trance [Snip] > Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this > agreement to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits > only the cars sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the > Mercedes-AMG models can go faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher > speed limits for their M-cars under certain condition (M3 CSL with > 175 mph for buyers who can show a race drivers license). ... and Audi (or, rather, quattro gmbh) fudge the issue by saying that their cars are limited to 155mph (or, to be precise, 250kph), but then describing this as a 'soft' limit. It is quite clear that the RS4 and RS6 models are capable of comfortably exceeding 250kph (not that I've been brave enough to prove this in our land of 70mph limits). SignaturePeter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily') > IMHO the marketing problem for the company is to sell the > top of the line cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of > the line. An interesting thing (at least to me anyway :^) came to mind while reading this. It seems that for Europeans, when speaking about a "fast" car...it is top speed that comes to mind, while generally for Americans it is acceleration. Of course this has to do with speed limits I suppose, and maybe motorsports, but even for me when someone talks about how fast a car is I immediately think of acceleration 0-60 or 0-100, rather than *top* speed. "Ramone Cila" <dontw@nt.spam> haute in die Tasten: > An interesting thing (at least to me anyway :^) came to mind while > reading this. It seems that for Europeans, when speaking about a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > talks about how fast a car is I immediately think of acceleration 0-60 > or 0-100, rather than *top* speed. Maybe it has to do with the speed limit. Drag racing for example is a true american sports, which does not have many fans in Germany, while we have 24 hours endurance races (where BMW recently won a class prize with a close- to-stock BMW 320d). Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen - Made in Trance > E.R. <red_starinfrench@email.kom> haute in die Tasten: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > would probably have limited the cars at a lower level) and avoiding a > reckless speed race. The story we got over here was that such an "arms race" would lead to a political backlash from the car-hating Green Party, resulting in actual laws that would be even more restrictive. So the carmakers agreed on the 155 MPH limit. They also wanted to avoid the need for use of > expensive and uncomfortable high performance tires. A serious concern, with safety also. How can the safety of such high speed tires be assured over time? Tire technology wasn't as advanced then either. > When the agreeent > was imposed some years ago, it was not regarded likely that the > manufacturers would make sedans with 500 HP;-) No kidding. I remember when car magazines featuring 500 HP Ruf-modified Porsches, which seemed incredibly exotic at the time. Now such cars seem commonplace. > Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this > agreement to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits > only the cars sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the > Mercedes-AMG models can go faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher > speed limits for their M-cars under certain condition (M3 CSL with > 175 mph for buyers who can show a race drivers license). Ah, you Germans are so orderly (which is probably why you can have roads with no speed limits). Over here, any idiot can buy such things -- and they do. > IMHO the > marketing problem for the company is to sell the top of the line > cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of the line. Americans are not so logical. They want the "bestest" one, no matter the cost. It's all about the bling, baby! Besides, it's only $50 more per month! Matt O. "Matt O'Toole" <matt@deltanet.com> haute in die Tasten: > The story we got over here was that such an "arms race" would lead to > a political backlash from the car-hating Green Party, resulting in > actual laws that would be even more restrictive. So the carmakers > agreed on the 155 MPH limit. Well, the car-hating Green Party was not member of the government, when the agreement was imposed, and even today their influence is way too small to bring us a general speed limit, even if they liked to;-) Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen - Made in Trance "Matt O'Toole" <matt@deltanet.com> haute in die Tasten: > Ah, you Germans are so orderly (which is probably why you can have > roads with no speed limits). Over here, any idiot can buy such > things -- and they do. Over here, too. There are lots of BMW tuners who do not limit their cars. Alpina has just introduced their brad new Alpina B5 with a five litre supercharged V8 and 500 HP. It is about as expensive as a new M5, features about the same acceleration and runs at least 30 miles faster - with an ordinary torque converter autobox. Currently Alpina is considering limiting the beast at 300 km/h (approx 186 mph) due to safety reasons. And I am pretty sure that there are many companies, which legally remove the speed limiter for you (but I do not know what the insurance companies think about that). I think the decision of BMW to sell the 280 kph CSL only to certified race drivers was some sort of marketing hype: They wanted to demonstrate that the M3 CSL is a street legal race car. It was no decision enforced by law. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen - Made in Trance > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. > > BMW has put me in such a difficult position with their pricing, body > design, and iDrive. Fitted similarly, the cars have a difference of 4 or 5 grand. At this price level that's not much. I-drive isn't an issue unless you make it so. By and large the magazines are essentially wrong with their reviews of i-drive. Body design? If you don't like it...don't buy it. I wouldn't buy a car which I didn't apprciate the exterior styling. I own a 545i. > The first time I saw a 2005 545i I was like 'YUCK!!!'. I mean I really > wanted to like it but I just could not as hard as I tried. It truly > looks terrible to me, my girlfriend had the exact same reaction. > > Meanwhile, the A6 is a very pedestrian Audi design - better in that it > doesnt bother me. I think differently. I think it is quite nice looking...even the large grill. Audi is more an "everyman's" car. Caught somewhere between being best at anything. Reviews say it rides hard....too hard. But I haven't had an opportunity behind the wheel. though I must say that BMW's compliant yet gripping ride is one of the things I like most about BMW's in general regardless of model. > The Audi is limited to 130 MPH and although thats unfortunate, I think > I've only exceeded that once in the 540i anyway, and just briefly. The > 540i is slightly faster in acceleration thanks to the torque if not > the HP. The 545 has been clocked at 5.3 (Road and Track) to 60 with an auto tranny...Audi specs 6.3 and 6.1 for the new A6. It may drive great and you can't tell how ugly it may be from inside, but remember, every time that you go to drive it you're going to have to look at it before you get inside. A great drive is a great drive only while you're driving, but ugly is forever. - GRL > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Anyways - opinions? > It may drive great and you can't tell how ugly it may be from inside, but > remember, every time that you go to drive it you're going to have to look at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > - GRL Pshaa! When most people are concerned about these cars' supposed "ugliness", what they are really concerned about is what other people will think about the car when they drive by in it. I, on the other hand, never actually drive my cars. I just go out to the garage and look at them, so their beautiful design is of utmost importance to me... (not!!) ;-) -Fred W > > It may drive great and you can't tell how ugly it may be from inside, but > > remember, every time that you go to drive it you're going to have to look at [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -Fred W Different strokes for different folks. I really enjoy the fact that my silver S8 is very reserved looking, and stealthy. Once insde, particularly at night when the white indicators spin up the red surrounds, it feels like piloting a low flying jet. I think it is a combination of looks and feel, and sound. When I had my Viper it was more "instant celebrity" than in my current Vette, but if I were going to go sit in the garage and just stare at a machine, it would have to be a 12 cylinder Ferrari. I still say, buy a used S8 for the price of either of the cars being considered, and have it all!! > > It may drive great and you can't tell how ugly it may be from inside, but > > remember, every time that you go to drive it you're going to have to look at [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "ugliness", what they are really concerned about is what other people > will think about the car when they drive by in it. Vanity isn't the only reason why people criticize the aesthetics of these cars. Many people criticize these designs because they expect a lofty $50k car to encompass more than just great function; they expect beautiful form as well. And they -- or should I say we -- feel that many of both BMW's and Audi's latest designs have taken a step backward in that regard. Rob 2002 A4 3.0Q 2005 TT 3.2 DSG >what they are really concerned about is what other people >> will think about the car when they drive by in it. BMW's yealry sales in North America are built almost entirely on the brand's image. Break 1,000 BMW owners into groups of 10 and I bet that 9 out of every 10 of them will tell you that brand image helped sell them on the car. Audi lacks the image and recognition of BMW and that's a big part of why they can't sell as many cars. It also doesn't help that the average Audi (S and RS models aside) can't hold a candle to the capabiltities of the average BMW. The A4 and A6 simply cannot match the overall dynamics of the 3 and 5-series models. Steve Grauman > >what they are really concerned about is what other people > >> will think about the car when they drive by in it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > aside) can't hold a candle to the capabiltities of the average BMW. The A4 and > A6 simply cannot match the overall dynamics of the 3 and 5-series models. I don't disagree with you. 9 of 10 car buyers of ALL brands are likely influenced by brand imagery to some extent -- whether it be "youthful hipness" (Scion), "practicality" (Honda), "staid sophistication" (Mercedes), or what have you. But that isn't to say that design doesn't count, or that aesthetics are somehow above criticism. Just look at Cadillac. At one time Cadillacs were considered by many to be the very best that the automotive world had to offer -- the best sheetmetal, the best drivetrains, the most luxurious interiors, etc. (hence the phrase, "it's the Cadillac of......"). But then, gradually (while many loyalists/apologists surely continued defending them), the design elements slid downhill to a point where a large segment of the public no longer liked the cars. So consumers were left to make a choice: do I buy a "legendary" brand that I no longer like, or do I buy something less legendary that appeals more to my senses? And the historical numbers clearly point that most potential buyers eventually chose the second option. However -- surprise surprise! -- as soon as Cadillac introduced a crop of new designs that people liked (Escalade, CTS, etc.), sales came back with a vengeance. Do I think that means that BMW's are going to slide the way Cadillac's did during the 70's and 80's? Not necessarily. But history shows (via Cadillac, Nissan, Mazda, Chrysler and dozens of once stylish, but now defunct brands) that ignoring consumers' wants/tastes and relying instead on imagery to sell cars is not a viable long-term recipe for success. Rob I prefer the Audi's styling and I MUCH prefer it's interior, especially the MMI interface, to the "5ers" interior and iDrive. However the Audi has been criticized for somewhat vague steering and an overly stiff suspension, and would probably not be able to match the 545i in pure dynamics. For me, it would come down to which I value more: the interior or the "on the edge" performance capabilities. I'd probably take the A6, because on a day to day basis, I'm not going to be exploring the performance limits of either car and I'd rather live with the A6's interior. I do like the E500 though.... Steve Grauman For the same money, I bought a used 2002 Audi S8 (like the one in Ronin). Unbelievable!!! Buy a certified pre-owned, and you'll have a warranty as well. > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Anyways - opinions? In a previous posting, brundlefly76@hotmail.com (Seth Brundle) had the audacity to say: :I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. :It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. They're both very nice cars imo. :The first time I saw a 2005 545i I was like 'YUCK!!!'. I dunno, I think the new 5ers look just fine. But I suppose they are a bit of an acquired taste. :The Audi is limited to 130 MPH and although thats unfortunate, Yes, but it should be sharkable (once the car is broken in of course). I agree that governors that artifically limit the top speed of a very well engineered and capable vehicle are a terrible thing, just in principle. That the driver may never intend to drive faster than 110 mph or whatever is beside the point. The Euro spec version of that car would probably be restricted to a much more reasonable 155 mph. :I think :I've only exceeded that once in the 540i anyway, and just briefly. Probably nothing reckless about that, those are very capable and well handling cars. When one drives a superior quality vehicle, one doesn't notice the speed as much. 130 mph in your 540 would probably feel more sedate and planted than 90 mph in my old (no longer driven) Grand Scam... :I know I'll like driving the BMW more, thats what got me the 540i. :I've driven Audis - they are 'smooth' - real smooth, but Im not :looking for smooth, I like 'fun'. Audis aren't fun? I thought they were trying to copy BMW in every way these days. SignatureE.R. aka SJG aka Ricardo present location: vancouver bc canada refugee from the european union's evil bureaucracy > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. I'm not sold on the new 5 Series looks, but, I have to tell you, the nose on that Audi is absolutely hideous. JMO/YMMV Jeff > BMW has put me in such a difficult position with their pricing, body > design, and iDrive. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Anyways - opinions? Signature--- "Every time I hear the news That old feeling comes back on; We're waist deep in the Big Muddy And the Big Fool says to push on." - Pete Seeger, 1967 --- > > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. > > I'm not sold on the new 5 Series looks, but, I have to tell you, the nose on > that Audi is absolutely hideous. JMO/YMMV I have a 545 and although I wasn't completely enamored with it's looks it doesn't seem to matter to me anymore. I like the drive and performance and I love the spartan interior. I don't really dislike the new nose of the A6, but if one does, but loves everything else about the car, I doubt the nose will be much of an issue a few months down the road. I just don't get excited about looks. Good or bad, they inevitably become unimportant if the car satisfies (or dissatisfies) in what I consider to be the more important areas. I have a 530i with sports suspension, sports seats etc and most of the goodies. Bought it second hand 10 months old with 700 miles on the clock. I cannot believe how the brand new price of both BMW and AUDI gets ramped up by the addition of options which the trade seem to consider as 'minimum standard requirements'. My 530i would have been ?42,000 list with all the options and at that price I would not have bought it (I paid ?27,995, which just goes to show how much these things depreciate, particularly the options). In Prague recently I got to drive the top of the range Skoda Superb, with leather, sat nav, gloss wood, 19 inch alloys. Given that I can buy this car in the UK for HALF the price of my BMW, I'd have to think very seriously before buying either of the cars listed in this thread. I love my BMW (and I'd love a 6 series), but the pricing is for name and prestige, not value. >I cannot believe how the brand new price of both BMW and AUDI gets ramped up >by the addition of options Audi isn't nearly as bad as BMW. We test drove the X5 a few weeks ago before my mother got her Touraeg. The car was nearly $50k USD and didn't include several seemingly obvious options like power adjuastable lumbar. We would have needed to add another couple thousand dollars worth of options just to get the adjuastable lumbar as part of a larger pack. And they get like $48k for loaded 330's! Steve Grauman >> > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. >> > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > be > the more important areas. With my BMW, I get the best of both worlds. I get excited everytime I look at it and then i get to drive it. How cool is that? ;-) Jeff Jeffmayner writes: >With my BMW, I get the best of both worlds. I get excited everytime I look >at it and then i get to drive it. > >How cool is that? ;-) You don't know cool until you open your garage door each day and see and then drive my RS6. d;o) > With my BMW, I get the best of both worlds. I get excited everytime I look > at it and then i get to drive it. > > How cool is that? ;-) I thought that would be the case with my e39's, whose exterior design I liked a lot. I was taken the first time I laid eyes on one in person. But after a few months the looks didn't matter at all. Today the e39 looks downright dowdy to me, but I still love the car because it drives about as good as any standard sedan I've ever been in with the exception of an e60 without Active Steering. > >> > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > >> > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Jeff It's pretty cool. That's how I feel about my Audi S8, as well. It has completely replaced my interest in any other German marque. It is truly fabulous. With a Dinan 5 E39, and a "warmed up" S4, all I can say is take another look at the Audi. You can play with the BMW, but you can get downright serious with the Audi!! ...Lorne > >> > I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade. > >> > It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Jeff >I'm not sold on the new 5 Series looks, but, I have to tell you, the nose on >that Audi is absolutely hideous. JMO/YMMV Have you seen it in person? I saw a loaded V6 at the dealer and I actually like it, MUCH better than the pictures made it seem. Steve Grauman |
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