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Car Forum / Audi Cars / April 2005Guess What (follow-up)?
(Follows on from "Guess What?".) Dealer asked me to take the car in so that I could have the steering rods replaced free of charge as no records showed this had been done under the original campaign. Boy, was I not in for a bigger surprise when after dropping the car there, I get a second call in the afternoon telling me that while the car is on the lift, a tie-rod replacement record has shown up on Elsa (they had pressumably not been able to set up a connection before), the German database, and that I will have to pay for the whole thing. He very kindly informs me that it's only the upper right-front end arms and both tie-rod ends that need to be replaced. Since I had asked for an estimate prior to any real arm replacements, he then quotes a total of some $800, including labour. I say "thanks for the info", but could you please lower my car and get it ready for me to pick it up when I finish work? So, in the end, I just took the car to an independent mechanic and had all of this plus an oil-and-filter change and 2 new Bilsteins for the front end for $1000.. I really felt I had been cheated by the dealer. I did not check any other ones as I did not have either the time of patience to drive an extra 100 miles but this speaks volumes about how the make is treating their customers. JP Roberts >dropping the car there, I get a second call in the afternoon telling me that >while the car is on the lift, a tie-rod replacement record has shown up on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >prior to any real arm replacements, he then quotes a total of some $800, >including labour. What about warranty on the first repair/exchange job? Was it already expired? >miles but this speaks volumes about how the make is treating their >customers. US customers.. ? Well, just to drop another view in: My A6 TDI developed sort of a rough idle after 4 years. To sort it out, my Audi garage changed both camshafts, filters, engine mounts and re-adjusted timing etc. The whole procedure took several visits and a few months, but I always got a free loaner and didn't have to pay a single euro (except for the fuel for the loaner). They were flexible with appointments and the car was washed and cleaned inside every time. During one of the first service visits in 2000 they should have done a rewiring of the MAF which they didn't. It was not an absolute must, but a recommendation. That caused the consumption of 3 MAFs of which I didn't pay a single one. I insisted on the re-wirig after ~5 years. The car was out of any warranty of course by then but as I had told them about the re-wiring before (which I myself estimated at roughly 1,5 hours job for a good mechanic) I paid a more or less symbolic contribution of 15 Euros. Sure, one could argue, that it should have been completely free, but I was happy it had been done and the tip to the mech would have been there anyway. And finally: I had an aftermarket (Eberspaecher) pre-heater installed, which was subcontracted by them to another company. I was suspicious because I wanted Webasto. They recommended Eberspaecher and sure enough the pre-heater smoked like an old chimney and was unusable. They picked up the car two times at my company to bring it into the shop, leaving me a loaner. They agreed to change to a Webasto free of charge for me in case they couldn't fix it in short time although the Webasto was more expensive but finally found the flaw and fixed it (pre-heater exhaust installation error). Since then it works like a charm and hadn't shown a problem at all. To get this done in the end they got their head mechanic, the subcontractor AND the Austrian Eberspaecher head tech in to discuss that directly on my car. I'm at the moment factually basing my decision on the next car brand almost purely on the fact that I finally found a shop which is good, fast, precise, flexible and features a good price/performance relation. Ok, enough babbling but the pluses almost never get mentioned. It's the complaints which get sorted out here. Regards Wolfgang I'm glad to believe you were pampered like that, because I think you must be just about one of the rare exceptions, and judging from what I've read on the forums, the general opinion on the treatment they get from the make is clearly bad, and that's even in the US, where customers get better treatment than in Europe. It is now perfectly clear to me, that the arms were clearly underengineered and that they should be covered for the life of the car. Further to this, if you drop into just any garage where the mechs have some experience they'll tell you that the front suspension of these cars is basically ***t in terms of long term reliability. > My A6 TDI developed sort of a rough idle after 4 years. To sort it > out, my Audi garage changed both camshafts, filters, engine mounts and [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Wolfgang JP, I'd love a warranty like that on the rear transverse links on my 5ktq - I've had to replace them a couple of times in the past few years. It may be true that the front links were underdesigned.....some revisions to the design and a silent warranty may have been applied to the underdesign......but a lifetime warranty? Cheers! Steve Sears 1987 Audi 5kTQ 1980 Audi 5k 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply) > I'm glad to believe you were pampered like that, because I think you must be > just about one of the rare exceptions, and judging from what I've read on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > experience they'll tell you that the front suspension of these cars is > basically ***t in terms of long term reliability. > the general opinion on the treatment they get from the make is > clearly bad, and that's even in the US, where customers get better treatment > than in Europe. I'd be interested to know how you arrived at that conclusion. > X-no-archive: yes >> the general opinion on the treatment they get from the make is >> clearly bad, and that's even in the US, where customers get better >> treatment than in Europe. > > I'd be interested to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Just conduct a number of random searches on www.audiworld.com on the subject of dealerships, or more specifically "stealerships" as they are commonly referred to. > Ok, enough babbling but the pluses almost never get mentioned. That's true. With my recent fuel pump follies, my independent was quite embarrassed about not finding the problem, even with all the billing he did. It was all legit - he spent time trying to track down an intermittent problem. It just so happened that it finally failed away from his shop. I have always been happy with my mechanic - he does a great job at low prices, and if he goofs, he covers out of his own pocket. All of our high-mileage Audis have been solid, and even though the parts are somewhat expensive, they are no worse that the same parts for Japanese cars. While I'm not a big fan of dealerships in general (high rates, 100% book-time charges), a few of the relatively local ones have been very helpful in sorting minor DIY stuff. Like how to replace bulbs when the mounting hardware is not as simple as it first appears. JPR's dealer sounds like a place to avoid, but they are not *all* like that... E.P. > JPR's dealer sounds like a place to avoid, but they are not *all* like > that... Phoned the closest dearlership apart from "mine", which is 50 miles from this (therefore the 100-mile trip) and they told me the same story in terms of the make only covering those items for which there was a current campaign. Well, I think this is very bad; you only need to think of what happens if you miss that recall letter - which I incidentally have not yet received for the current lower arm recall. The little *** know perfectly well it's hardly ever the lower arms that go, but the upper ones, that's why they're doing the campaign on the lower ones. I feel utterly disappointed and cheated, especially as this is fairly common practice as I've got to know now. JP, I'd venture that it's not necessarily the "make" but the "dealer" who is mistreating their customers - maybe you should consider going the extra 100 miles to the other dealer - post on Audiworld and here asking what the rep of the other dealership is - and while you're at it, post the name of the dealership that you had problems with so others can avoid lousy treatment. If the independent is a good shop and does great work, why not continue with them? Cheers! Steve Sears 1987 Audi 5kTQ 1980 Audi 5k 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply) > (Follows on from "Guess What?".) > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > JP Roberts I've long been having oil changes done at the independent. I think you're getting confused here, since what we were discussing is the fact that this should have been covered under a faulty design silent guarantee by the make - read dealer. > JP, > I'd venture that it's not necessarily the "make" but the "dealer" who is [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> >> JP Roberts > I've long been having oil changes done at the independent. I think you're > getting confused here, since what we were discussing is the fact that this > should have been covered under a faulty design silent guarantee by the > make - read dealer. But the dealer sucks, so don't go there. The dealer *should* have done it, but didn't. So don't go there. The dealer is not interested in you as a repeat customer. Don't go there. E.P. JP, Didn't you say that the dealer found that they _were_ replaced a while back under the silent warranty programme - once their IT guys got their ducks in a line? - As with my other post, considering that ball joints are indeed a wear item, and do wear out on most cars, it is possible you could take your complaint to AoA if the lifespan of the replacements were less than most - at best, they'd cover some of the replacement cost (although it may be unlikely if the replacements were done at the independent garage with parts purchased through channels other than Audi (dunno if that's possible or not). Cheers! Steve Sears 1987 Audi 5kTQ 1980 Audi 5k 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply) > I've long been having oil changes done at the independent. I think you're > getting confused here, since what we were discussing is the fact that this > should have been covered under a faulty design silent guarantee by the > make - read dealer. They should have been replaced, but with these so called "campaigns", if the dealer does happen to have the necessary time to check during a routinely service, and I'm assuming they do, it still takes some "free play" or whatever other sypmtoms for them to have the parts replaced. Now, if they know these to be faulty I find that is only adding insult to injury as they should all be replaced automatically in every single instance. > JP, > Didn't you say that the dealer found that they _were_ replaced a while [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> should have been covered under a faulty design silent guarantee by the >> make - read dealer. JP, So were they replaced or not? Cheers! Steve Sears 1987 Audi 5kTQ 1980 Audi 5k 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply) > They should have been replaced, but with these so called "campaigns", if the > dealer does happen to have the necessary time to check during a routinely [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >> should have been covered under a faulty design silent guarantee by the > >> make - read dealer. > JP, > So were they replaced or not? > Cheers! > Steve Sears http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=author:1234%40yahoo.com&start=20&hl=en&lr=&s elm=cpnr1i%24fgc%241%40news.ya.com&rnum=26 have a look In all probability they weren't and the lack of a sticker speaks volumes but unfortunately as I had not yet become suspicious enough at the time, I never really checked. Anyway, it is still much of the same thing now with the lower arms, which, of course, they just found to be OK, and I bet they're going to fall apart just as soon as the campaign is over. I mean these people know very well what they're doing to boost their business and empty our pockets, right? > JP, > So were they replaced or not? [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> >> should have been covered under a faulty design silent guarantee by the >> >> make - read dealer. > JP, > I'd venture that it's not necessarily the "make" but the "dealer" who is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If the independent is a good shop and does great work, why not continue with > them? This is the same complaint heard over and over all over usenet, no matter what make. If the dealer makes a mistake, the manufacturer is at fault (so the reasoning goes.) If the dealer is crummy at CS, somehow Audi is the problem. It may be that the control arms were under-engineered. But the dealer was the problem to begin with, saying work had been done when it had not. Audi didn't have anything to do with JPR's out-of-pocket, other than a problem with under-engineering (which is still a maybe.) I agree that the name of the rep and the dealership should be made known. So that if any one of us finds ourselves in that area, we know where *not* to go. It would still be better if JPR got a Toyota or Honda product. That way, when he has a problem, and goes to a newsgroup to complain, they'll be able to tell him the same thing. After questioning his truthfulness, because everyone knows that Toyotas and Hondas don't break down. :) Don't laugh too hard, I've seen it. In the end, Audi's not much on the hook for this one. The dealer, however, is. E.P. > This is the same complaint heard over and over all over usenet, no > matter what make. If the dealer makes a mistake, the manufacturer is [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > In the end, Audi's not much on the hook for this one. The dealer, > however, is. I would really like to buy this, but if you read my other posts, you'll realize that it's an Audi "policy" thing not to automatically replace all faulty parts. To give you a further example, my brother-in-law had to drop his car at the dealer's three times for three sucessive but differently and ill-timed coilpack failures. This is something that you will never see when a Japanese make is involved, and I should think no other German manufacturers would dare live up to such preposterous standards. I feel it's especially disappointing as we are paying dear money for these cars in the belief that they are going to be German-reliable and I have always know Germans to be very serious about whatever they do. >I would really like to buy this, but if you read my other posts, you'll >realize that it's an Audi "policy" thing not to automatically replace all >faulty parts. Not only Audi. >To give you a further example, my brother-in-law had to drop >his car at the dealer's three times for three sucessive but differently and >ill-timed coilpack failures. This is something that you will never see when >a Japanese make is involved, Seen that e.g. on Hondas and Toyotas, too >and I should think no other German >manufacturers would dare live up to such preposterous standards. Check the BMW and/or Merc Newsgroups. Or the japanese ones. Regards Wolfgang  Signature1999 Audi A6 Avant TDI Wolfgang, Hear hear. Piecemeal servicing is getting more common everyday. The more complex the cars, the more "black boxes" to go wrong. Sometimes there may be a group of BB's daisy chained together to form a system, and the standard operating procedure is to replace the most likely failed BB, see if that fixed the problem, then go for the next, and the next, and the next......sounds alot like the A8L problem we had here a while back, but it was also the problem I heard about a certain British SUV company repair policy, too. It's all across the board. I doubt that servicing Japanese products would make JP feel all warm and fuzzy inside, either. After having a massive rear brake replacement (cables, calipers, rotors) on my wife's 2k2 CRV, in which I was criticized as being neglectful for not bringing in the car for a "brake inspection" (I "inspected" them when I rotated the tires), I asked for the rotors back. They forgot and threw them out. I asked for a replacement set and they said "Oh yeah, we get CRV's and Odysseys in all the time for rear brake problems, we'll get you a set next week". Inspection, my a$$. Cheers! Steve Sears 1987 Audi 5kTQ 1980 Audi 5k 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply) > >I would really like to buy this, but if you read my other posts, you'll > >realize that it's an Audi "policy" thing not to automatically replace all [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Wolfgang After having a massive rear brake > replacement (cables, calipers, rotors) on my wife's 2k2 CRV, Why this replacement? JP, siezed calipers, pooched rotors. Apparently, the rear calipers must not like the salty winter roads so much - I was told the local Stealership goes through loads of brake replacements every spring on CRV's and Odysseys - bad owners, of course. Honda used to be different - they replaced the whole rear suspension and gas tank on a recall on my parent's 1982 Civic Wagon when it was 13 years old. Cheers! Steve Sears 1987 Audi 5kTQ 1980 Audi 5k 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply) > After having a massive rear brake > > replacement (cables, calipers, rotors) on my wife's 2k2 CRV, > > Why this replacement? > Not only Audi. Can you provide any links proving that any other presumably "serious" makes have had problems with suspension arms? >>To give you a further example, my brother-in-law had to drop >>his car at the dealer's three times for three sucessive but differently [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Seen that e.g. on Hondas and Toyotas, too Again I'll appreciate any links you can provide in that direction, as the only things I seem to have read about Honda was that they were by far much more reliable than any German makes, and every owner seemed to be more or less pretty happy about their Hondas. And I know Audis look better but the type R is a hell of a car performance wise and with such a high-revving engine, this should last no longer than a couple of hundred miles, if the parts in this engine were of a similar standard to that of VW suspension rod ends. >Can you provide any links proving that any other presumably "serious" makes >have had problems with suspension arms? Arms? We were talking about the replacement policy, right? But ok: Google search for '$BRANDHERE front suspension problem' gives Honda http://tinyurl.com/9jcny http://tinyurl.com/abu76 http://tinyurl.com/9b5ta Toyota: http://tinyurl.com/89hff This one might be worth a quote: ************** My experience with Toyota was the same: they rush and do a minimal work to appear trying to fix things and when they fail they tell you that they do not know what to do next or they refer you to the Toyota Representative. I suggest that you ask your dealer put you in contact with the Toyota Representative and if that does not work try arbitration (1-888-300-6237). I also suggest that "you do not hold your breath(!)" even if arbitration results in your favor. The decision is supposed to be "binding on Toyota," it isn't. In my case even if the arbitrator decided that Toyota should repair the car, Toyota did not. ***** End Quote http://tinyurl.com/br9d4 BMW http://tinyurl.com/beh4z http://tinyurl.com/a6g2u Merc http://tinyurl.com/bqca5 http://tinyurl.com/99s5d >Again I'll appreciate any links you can provide in that direction, as the >only things I seem to have read about Honda was that they were by far much >more reliable than any German makes, and every owner seemed to be more or >less pretty happy about their Hondas. Ok. Just for starters (unfortunately in german, but you'll recognize the pattern. The less the number of needed assistances is, the better it is): Roadside assistances medium to upperclass cars http://tinyurl.com/8j3dl medium class: http://tinyurl.com/drqzc Then I got bored searching. Regards Wolfgang > Honda > http://tinyurl.com/9jcny > http://tinyurl.com/abu76 > http://tinyurl.com/9b5ta Do not appear to be general or serious and for the first two there is no indication that the car owner had to pay for the repairs. > Toyota: > http://tinyurl.com/89hff > http://tinyurl.com/br9d4 In the end it turned out to be tyre related, so not relevant. > BMW > http://tinyurl.com/beh4z > http://tinyurl.com/a6g2u The first turned out to be the muffler, the second, however, is relevant, though there is nothing about control arms, only springs and struts, which is not really in the same league as far as wear is concerned. > Merc > http://tinyurl.com/bqca5 > http://tinyurl.com/99s5d The first is about an off roader so that's a completely different matter. The second is not specific at all. >>Again I'll appreciate any links you can provide in that direction, as the >>only things I seem to have read about Honda was that they were by far much [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > medium class: > http://tinyurl.com/drqzc Statistics is the science by which if a man has eaten a chicken and another one has not eaten one, at the end of the day they will both have eaten half of it each. Anyway, it would have to be seen how many more Mercs and BMWs are there on the German roads, by comparison to the number of Audis. I believe the ratio must be somewhere between 2 Mercs per every Audi, and 1.5 BMWs per Audi, though of course I still prefer my whole Audi to that remaining half a BMW :)! Not trying to pull anyone's leg, here and do appreciate your efforts but I remain unconvinced. JP Roberts >> This is the same complaint heard over and over all over usenet, no >> matter what make. If the dealer makes a mistake, the manufacturer is [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > belief that they are going to be German-reliable and I have always > know Germans to be very serious about whatever they do. So you had your warranty work done on recall 5 years ago, and you now have 100k miles on the clock and expect that a wear item should be replaced under warranty? I know the suspension arms on Audi's is poor but they do last for at least a few years which is "good enough" I would say bite the bullet and live with it, you still got a nice car, remember most Audi owners are repeat customers, once you buy an Audi you dont go back :) I feel it's especially >> disappointing as we are paying dear money for these cars in the >> belief that they are going to be German-reliable and I have always [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > under > warranty? The point is that they are badly and underengineered and this is exactly why they must be covered for the life of the car. > I know the suspension arms on Audi's is poor but they do last for at least > a > few years which is "good enough. It is precisely because of this soft critical attitude that they will get away with it yet once again. > remember most Audi owners are repeat customers, once you buy an Audi you > dont go back. This is exactly why they should treat us with some respect instead of disdain. Disdain is cheaper. > This is exactly why they should treat us with some respect instead of > disdain. Opps, Disdain is cheaper. But where I go I am treated very nice indeed. No matter what the manufacturer, I'm sure there will be bad examples happening. > > In the end, Audi's not much on the hook for this one. The dealer, > > however, is. > > I would really like to buy this, but if you read my other posts, you'll > realize that it's an Audi "policy" thing not to automatically replace all > faulty parts. I *have* read your other posts. If the part is not currently causing a problem, then they should not have to replace it. This is not an Audi-only thing - they *all* do it. > To give you a further example, my brother-in-law had to drop > his car at the dealer's three times for three sucessive but differently and > ill-timed coilpack failures. Again, the policy of not replacing parts that are not currently broken causes some hassles. Maybe Audi could have sourced all the needed coil packs all at once. And maybe tequila is suddenly going to pour out of a faucet at home. Until Audi had a large enough supply, there *just weren't enough* coil packs to replace four when one was faulty. > This is something that you will never see when > a Japanese make is involved Flat out wrong. > and I should think no other German > manufacturers would dare live up to such preposterous standards. Mercedes and BMW have exactly the same policy. > I feel it's > especially disappointing as we are paying dear money for these cars in the > belief that they are going to be German-reliable and I have always know > Germans to be very serious about whatever they do. As I have said before, you had better start shopping for a luxury Japanese make to reduce the strain on your heart. Where again is this dealer that's not replacing non-faulty parts for free? E.P. Until Audi had a large enough supply, there *just > weren't enough* coil packs to replace four when one was faulty. I can't believe you bought such a lame excuse. This is no excuse at all, remember they do have all the necessary cars it takes to supply just any market. If it'd been a Chinese customer placing an order for 500 A6 on condition that they must be made within three week's time they sure would have taken and fullfilled the demand. > Flat out wrong. Where's that link? > Mercedes and BMW have exactly the same policy. I friend of mine had the whole of his '02 M3's engine replaced 2 months out of warranty before it broke - which remains to be seen whether it would have happened. This is exactly the right and opposite policy. I don't know about Mercedes. > Where again is this dealer that's not replacing non-faulty parts for > free? Pretty much everywhere else when it's a clear case of underengineering. > Until Audi had a large enough supply, there *just > > weren't enough* coil packs to replace four when one was faulty. > > I can't believe you bought such a lame excuse. It's not an excuse, but reality. The fact is that the replacementsa didn't exist in great enough numbers. When they did exist, then all the packs were replaced at once. > This is no excuse at all, > remember they do have all the necessary cars it takes to supply just any > market. Hardly. You can't just wave a wand and have parts materialize out of thin air. Do you know anything at all about heavy manufacturing? > > Flat out wrong. > > Where's that link? Link to what? > > Mercedes and BMW have exactly the same policy. > > I friend of mine had the whole of his '02 M3's engine replaced 2 months out > of warranty before it broke - which remains to be seen whether it would have > happened. This is exactly the right and opposite policy. I don't know about > Mercedes. There's more to your story than you are saying. In fact, BMW had a very specific problem with their M3s, due to oil issues. And some dealers do work with their customers, to make sure they come back, regardless of corporate policy. I know of several people who had warranty work done outside of warranty eligibility, just because they had good dealer relations. > > Where again is this dealer that's not replacing non-faulty parts for > > free? > > Pretty much everywhere else when it's a clear case of underengineering. Are you an engineer? No? Then you cannot say that it's a "clear case." I'm becoming curious as to why you are not naming this dealer that's so shoddy. If what you say is completely true, then what's the problem? It seems to me as though you want a lifetime warranty on wear parts where no other manufacturer has such a policy. All because your German car is a little more expensive than other cars to fix. I will repeat my suggestion: sell your Audi, and buy a Honda or Toyota product. Everyone wins. E.P. I do know the basics about assembly line work, but then again I bet there is not only one coil pack manufacturer in the world. Now, there's probably only a cheap one, which happens to be the one supplying them. So, it's nothing a couple more bucks investment couldn't have solved in an instant. > Hardly. You can't just wave a wand and have parts materialize out of > thin air. Do you know anything at all about heavy manufacturing? > There's more to your story than you are saying. In fact, BMW had a > very specific problem with their M3s, due to oil issues. And some > dealers do work with their customers, to make sure they come back, > regardless of corporate policy. I know of several people who had > warranty work done outside of warranty eligibility, just because they > had good dealer relations. This is what they should all do, although of course only if there's a good reason enough, which happens to be the case. > Are you an engineer? No? Then you cannot say that it's a "clear > case." Well, now I can see you're just a would-be knowitall. Yes, I do happen to be an engineer although my knowledge of car mechanics is rather limited, but I can still easily tell from the many woe stories when something has been underengineered, but it doesn't take an engineer to not fail to see this. Also, upon inspection deterioration is so obvious that there's no denying the bad engineering. If I'm not naming the dealer it's only because it's thousands of miles away from where most of you probably are, so you're perfectly safe in that respect, and because the point is that this contemptible behaviour is pretty much extended where I am based. I would dare to say that the good stories are the rare exceptions. But with a few exceptions like that of Wolfgang, I think it's the make's policy that's faulty. If you doubt what I'm saying I would like you to point me out to just a couple of links in which our make has covered something after the guarantee had expired. > I'm becoming curious as to why you are not naming this dealer that's so > shoddy. If what you say is completely true, then what's the problem? >are the rare exceptions. But with a few exceptions like that of Wolfgang, I >think it's the make's policy that's faulty. If you doubt what I'm saying I >would like you to point me out to just a couple of links in which our make >has covered something after the guarantee had expired. Have you read the links I looked up for you as far as other brands are concerned? In your (understandable) bitterness you are now trying to ask for the impossible. As has been discussed numerous times, the folks who got their Audi serviced properly, quickly and who were taken care of have absolutely no inclination to write that down. The Audi Group delivered 1.2 Million units to customers in 2004 and 2003. Volkswagen as a total 5 Million Units per year worldwide. How many posts does Audiworld have which are that negative? How many posters show up here every month to ask for some help? 10? 20? But I can only meanwhile recommend the same as other posters: Go and get another brand? Regards Wolfgang Signature1999 Audi A6 Avant TDI >>are the rare exceptions. But with a few exceptions like that of Wolfgang, I >>think it's the make's policy that's faulty. If you doubt what I'm saying I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >their Audi serviced properly, quickly and who were taken care of have >absolutely no inclination to write that down. Allow me to praise my dealer (which I think I've done in this space: John Holtz Audi in Rochester, NY). They've never ripped me off. They've given me good advice and diagnoses. However, I have not always (or often, for that matter) gone to them for major service work because their prices are so much higher than the two independent shops I can choose from locally. And those shops also do great jobs with Audi and other Kraut import cars. Back to the dealer: they're forthright about their prices, and my market bears them, but I don't participate, that's all, beyond the routine oil change for the most part. And they're still very good in the customer care department. I value their involvement in the care of my 1998 2.8 A4 Quattro. Unfortunately, I've gotta replace some control arms on the front passenger corner, at 86k miles, but that's life with an Audi, and I still feel I'm coming out way ahead valuewise. This paid-off car is still cheaper for me to run than a new car with payments, and I love the whole driving experience with it. I'll be going to Universal Imports for this work, I think, which will cost me half of what Holtz would charge. But I do like CDI out in Victor, too. Wolfgang, did you read my reply to those links posted above? > Have you read the links I looked up for you as far as other brands are > concerned? These are still a minority when it comes down to general satisfaction with the treatment received. Just do a search in Audiworld. > In your (understandable) bitterness you are now trying to ask for the > impossible. As has been discussed numerous times, the folks who got > their Audi serviced properly, quickly and who were taken care of have > absolutely no inclination to write that down. There's no denying that these newsgroup is a valuable asset, but no matter how impressive your figures are, you're neglecting the fact that the vast majority of Audi Owners will never take to the internet to vent their frustrations with the make out. > The Audi Group delivered 1.2 Million units to customers in 2004 and > 2003. Volkswagen as a total 5 Million Units per year worldwide. How > many posts does Audiworld have which are that negative? How many > posters show up here every month to ask for some help? 10? 20? I'm seriously considering BMW as my next buy. > But I can only meanwhile recommend the same as other posters: Go and > get another brand? > > Regards > > Wolfgang >Wolfgang, did you read my reply to those links posted above? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >majority of Audi Owners will never take to the internet to vent their >frustrations with the make out. If your intention is to convince readers here that all Audis are "under engineered" and that we've all been ripped off, you will never succeed. Those of us reading the group who have had good value and satisfactory products from Audi, will sympathise but dismiss your story as a one-off. That's the natural reaction if our experience doesn't match yours. Time to move on, unless you're trying to speculate on a "class action". SignatureDavid Nesbitt N.B. Email sent to "nospam" will be rejected. Please use Reply-To address. > I do know the basics about assembly line work, but then again I bet there is > not only one coil pack manufacturer in the world. For that particular application? You do not have the slightest clue about the particulars of that case, and now you somehow claim to know about how many suppliers there are? OK, here's an exercise for your own amusement - a question to which I actually know the answer: At the time of VAG's coil pack problem, how many manufacturers could have supplied, at a one-week notice, a batch of one hundred of those specified coil packs? > So, it's nothing a > couple more bucks investment couldn't have solved in an instant. Answer the question above for enlightenment. > > There's more to your story than you are saying. In fact, BMW had a > > very specific problem with their M3s, due to oil issues. And some [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This is what they should all do, although of course only if there's a good > reason enough, which happens to be the case. Then why bother having a warranty period, hmmm? If it breaks, we'll fix it, no matter how old the car? No matter what mileage, no matter what sort of abuse or modification? OK, so that's the silly extreme, but there does have to be a line drawn somewhere. You happened to fall on the other side of it, and your dealership is taking a hard line and saying "tough luck." Just like every other manufacturer's dealerships in the vast majority of these kinds of cases. Wishing otherwise is a foolish exercise. > > Are you an engineer? No? Then you cannot say that it's a "clear > > case." > Well, now I can see you're just a would-be knowitall. You admit you're not an automotive engineer, so in this case I guess I really am right. Making your "clear case" comment is just so much prattling on. > Also, upon inspection deterioration is so obvious that there's no denying > the bad engineering. Except you're not an automotive engineer, so your "inspection" is meaningless. A few stories and some hearsay from some folks who have a monetary interest in getting your car on a hoist is not evidence. I suppose in your courses of study in engineering you had to take some classes in real, hard sciences, right? You can tell the difference between hard and anecdotal data, yes? > If I'm not naming the dealer it's only because it's thousands of miles away > from where most of you probably are, so you're perfectly safe in that > respect, and because the point is that this contemptible behaviour is pretty > much extended where I am based. All the more reason to name this dealer. Because now it's *your* credibility that I'm questioning. Normally, I give the benefit of the doubt to the customer, and assume the dealer is the problem. Now I'm beginning to get another idea in your specific case. > I would dare to say that the good stories > are the rare exceptions. Why? I've heard of more good stories in this thread than bad. > But with a few exceptions like that of Wolfgang, I > think it's the make's policy that's faulty. LOL. You think the car should come with some all-inclusive lifetime warranty for everything, including stuff that other people have had replaced under warranty. > If you doubt what I'm saying I > would like you to point me out to just a couple of links in which our make > has covered something after the guarantee had expired. I would not expect them to cover something after the warranty had expired, unless it was a recall item. Audi or some other manufacturer. If you wanted a longer warranty, then you should have purchased one. If the cost of repairing your out-of-warranty car is too dear, then you need a different car that's cheaper to fix when it breaks. I would like to know why you expect free service and parts after warranty for non-recall items when that virtually never happens for any other make or model. Why should Audi do what no one else does, and not charge more for it? E.P. You very well know it was not a one-week notice period, but at least a couple of months that we're talking about, so yes, just about every other manufacturer could have done so easily. > At the time of VAG's coil pack problem, how many manufacturers could > have supplied, at a one-week notice, a batch of one hundred of those > specified coil packs? > >> So, it's nothing a >> couple more bucks investment couldn't have solved in an instant. You know one of the virtues in life is that of showing some flexibility? Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of warranty? > Then why bother having a warranty period, hmmm? If it breaks, we'll > fix it, no matter how old the car? No matter what mileage, no matter > what sort of abuse or modification? OK, so that's the silly extreme, > but there does have to be a line drawn somewhere. You happened to fall > on the other side of it, and your dealership is taking a hard line and > saying "tough luck." You're right it's only your guess, which happens to be wrong. > You admit you're not an automotive engineer, so in this case I guess I > really am right. Making your "clear case" comment is just so much [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > denying >> the bad engineering. Let me put it this way, when you see you're bleeding badly, do you need to be a cardiovascular doctor to know if there's something seriously wrong? Even a child would understand something like this. > Except you're not an automotive engineer, so your "inspection" is > meaningless. A few stories and some hearsay from some folks who have a > monetary interest in getting your car on a hoist is not evidence. I > suppose in your courses of study in engineering you had to take some > classes in real, hard sciences, right? You can tell the difference > between hard and anecdotal data, yes? I've long been questioning yours, as you fail to maintain a logical argument by slightly diverting from the main topic all the time. > All the more reason to name this dealer. Because now it's *your* > credibility that I'm questioning. Normally, I give the benefit of the > doubt to the customer, and assume the dealer is the problem. Now I'm > beginning to get another idea in your specific case. This thread, but just conduct a search in Audiworld. >> I would dare to say that the good stories >> are the rare exceptions. > > Why? I've heard of more good stories in this thread than bad. Again, you're failing to remember that it's a case of underengineering, so another reason why your own credibility is close to nil. > LOL. You think the car should come with some all-inclusive lifetime > warranty for everything, including stuff that other people have had > replaced under warranty. [Snip] > Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of > warranty? The only fault which has affected the drivability any of our Audis, in a total 11.5 years of ownership was when a fuel injector failed on my 1996 A4 2.6. It failed about 2 months out of warranty but Audi UK covered the repair at no cost to me. SignaturePeter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily') Point taken, but check this, just for starters: http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/869113.phtml >> Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of >> warranty? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > A4 2.6. It failed about 2 months out of warranty but Audi UK covered > the repair at no cost to me. > Point taken, but check this, just for starters: > > http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/869113.phtml So the dealer (DEALER) is saying that the SR is not covered. Under Magnuson-Moss, the guy could get legal relief. Audi will take care of it, one way or another. But the dealer (DEALER) is making it tough on the end-user. And not all dealers (DEALERS) are the same. E.P. > >> So, it's nothing a > >> couple more bucks investment couldn't have solved in an instant. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > couple of months that we're talking about, so yes, just about every other > manufacturer could have done so easily. What's with the mixed top and bottom quoting? Anyway, your claim is that they could go to some other supplier and just get enough to cover all of them, including new manufacture, "in an instant". That suggestion is 100% false. There was *one* supplier for the particular part, and VAG had to get a different manufacturer to supply both the new and replacement parts. Like I said, you can't wave a wand and have parts appear. They need to made, shipped and stocked. Which takes time. > > Then why bother having a warranty period, hmmm? If it breaks, we'll > > fix it, no matter how old the car? No matter what mileage, no matter [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of > warranty? Again, why should they cover something out of warranty? Why bother having a warranty period AT ALL? I know of plenty of folks that have had things not recalled covered out of warranty. But those things were generally small, and the cars were close to the end of warranty. In addition, VAG did cover the electric window lift clip thing outside of warranty for lots of cars that were FAR outside the period. Look it up. You keep avoiding the question - why have a warranty period at all, if folks expect free repairs for the life of the car? > > You admit you're not an automotive engineer, so in this case I guess I > > really am right. Making your "clear case" comment is just so much > > prattling on. > > You're right it's only your guess, which happens to be wrong. You admitted that you weren't an automotive engineer. So, I guess some pedant can hop up and down and say "I told you so," but that doesn't make his training or experience any more relevant to the issue. So you're an engineer. You're not an AUTOMOTIVE engineer, so you are not qualified to judge the quality of the engineering from mere inspection. In fact, I'm not sure a real automotive engineer is qualified to judge from mere inspection. Real testing is required. > >> Also, upon inspection deterioration is so obvious that there's no > > denying > >> the bad engineering. > > Except you're not an automotive engineer, so your "inspection" is > > meaningless. A few stories and some hearsay from some folks who have a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Let me put it this way, when you see you're bleeding badly, do you need to > be a cardiovascular doctor to know if there's something seriously wrong? If the part is snapped clean off after driving out of the dealer's lot, then your analogy would be apt. But it's still functional (or was, until someone told you it needed to be replaced.) We do not know if that assessment is accurate. > Even a child would understand something like this. Then why can't you? > > All the more reason to name this dealer. Because now it's *your* > > credibility that I'm questioning. Normally, I give the benefit of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've long been questioning yours, as you fail to maintain a logical argument > by slightly diverting from the main topic all the time. No, the main topic is your inability to accept that the warranty period is over, and your parts aren't covered now. There's no recall, which means you're going to have to pay to have them replaced. Life's hard. Again, why should Audi cover something outside of warranty that's not a recall? And nice diversion from the question. Wasn't somebody just complaining about slight diversion somewhere? LOL. What's the name of this so-called dealer? Do they exist, even? > >> I would dare to say that the good stories > >> are the rare exceptions. > > > > Why? I've heard of more good stories in this thread than bad. > > > This thread, but just conduct a search in Audiworld. Why? You were complaining about good stories being rare. They aren't. > > LOL. You think the car should come with some all-inclusive lifetime > > warranty for everything, including stuff that other people have had > > replaced under warranty. > > > Again, you're failing to remember that it's a case of underengineering, so > another reason why your own credibility is close to nil. Your *claim* is that's it's underengineering, without any sort of credentials or testing data. I have not forgotten that at all - but I do recognize that it allows you to pursue the circular logic that it should be replaced at no cost to you. Why? Because it's underengineered! How do you know? Just by looking at it. If my credibility with you is nil, so what? You're the one trying to convince me that you are somehow correct, so my opinion must be important for some reason. E.P. The fact that you refuse to accept the generally accepted fact - so read GENERALLY in capitals - that the upper front arms and tie rods, and now lower arms are underengineered does not speak much about your convincing logic. The proof is all there as there have been wide recalls and that's because they had lots and lots of problems. Now it's not right for the make to say, sorry our campaign is over and your arms did not need replacing at the time so that's it. You also fail to answer how on earth it was not possible for the coilpack potential suppliers - many more than one - to produce the necessary parts in just under two months - it seems to have taken over five! The proof that this could have been done is really simple. How long does it take for a car order to be delivered to the end customer? Generally between one and three months, and that's with all the extras you can ask for, and it's a whole car we're talking about, right? There is almost nothing that cannot be achieved if a company is willing to invest more money to keep their customers from having to go back repeat times to the dealer No matter what you say, it is perfectly legitimate to feel cheated because of the reasons above. I am never saying that Audis are ***, which they are not, but the front arm design and/or materials of the B5s were and whoever fails to admit that is not worth of my credibility, period. To those who said I should buy a cheaper car, well, money is not the real problem, it is legitimacy that's at stake, you see? And no, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm simply making the facts clear, because while the car is still a much better car than many, it comes as a bit of a disappointing thing to see that they are not backing up their customers as they should. End of thread. > The fact that you refuse to accept the generally accepted fact - so read > GENERALLY in capitals - that the upper front arms and tie rods, and now > lower arms are underengineered does not speak much about your convincing > logic. Again, this is *circular reasoning.* There were some replacements on some cars. Not all, and it wasn't a recall item (lowers, at least.) So, the "underengineering" is speculative. That's real logic for you. You can argue all you want that this should somehow be a freebie for you, and I am still unconvinced. You cannot answer the questions posed, and continue to run around shouting your unproven assertion of underengineering. > You also fail to answer how on earth it was not possible for the coilpack > potential suppliers - many more than one - to produce the necessary parts in > just under two months - it seems to have taken over five! There was ONE supplier. Now you bring the red herring of "potential." Yes, there were several companies with the capability of producing the part. And in fact, that's exactly what happened - VAG contracted with another company for the part, both the replacements and the ones to go into new cars. But only one company had parts production capability *at that particular moment.* Do you have any idea how long it takes to get from a spec sheet and drawing to a finished part? Five months is a phenomenal job. Again pointing out how little you know about manufacturing. > The proof that > this could have been done is really simple. How long does it take for a car > order to be delivered to the end customer? >From a drawing and spec sheet? Years. > Generally between one and three > months, and that's with all the extras you can ask for, and it's a whole car > we're talking about, right? Hey, dimwit - all the parts are already in the pipeline and headed for final assembly. Hell, it takes less than a day to completely assemble a car from parts, but the parts *have to exist first.* And when you're using a single supplier, and then have to change suppliers, well, it can take some time. > There is almost nothing that cannot be achieved > if a company is willing to invest more money to keep their customers from > having to go back repeat times to the dealer You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. > No matter what you say, it is perfectly legitimate to feel cheated because > of the reasons above. Yes, it's fun to play the victim. That way, you don't have to be responsible for the choices you make. Your reasons are all weak, lacking in logic, or just plain wrong. But you can't back away now, because your ego is involved. > I am never saying that Audis are ***, which they are > not, but the front arm design and/or materials of the B5s were and whoever > fails to admit that is not worth of my credibility, period. Funny how not all of them were replaced, and how the lowers are hardly ever talked about. I guess the design is just bad for some people, and not others. Your reasoning is what lacks credibility. Maybe you need to take some courses in logic? > To those who said I should buy a cheaper car, well, money is not the real > problem, it is legitimacy that's at stake, you see? Who said cheaper? Lexus and Acura (Honda outside North America) make some fine luxury cars. And if money is not a problem, what's your whining all about, FFS??? > And no, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm simply making the > facts clear Except none of your facts are actually facts. The coil pack thing you have completely wrong, and the control arm stuff is half-baked speculation at best. > because while the car is still a much better car than many, it > comes as a bit of a disappointing thing to see that they are not backing up > their customers as they should. Because they refuse to give you some wear item for free, long after the warranty period is over. Sure thing. Good luck with that, no matter what car maker you ultimately choose. E.P. |
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