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Car Forum / BMW Cars / September 2006

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E39 530i Service Intervals - Maximum safe interval?

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Michael Rodgers - 31 Aug 2006 00:08 GMT
Hi all,

I'm looking at a 2001 E39 BMW 530i with 140k. It has FSH with the last stamp
at 139k. There are 6 stamps in total, meaning that this car has covered an
average of 23k miles between services.

Now, to me, this seems like a long time. Is it at the top end of what you
can generally eek out of a car like the 530i when most of your journeys are
long distance Motorway cruises, or is there a worrying possibility that the
previous owner of this car has been driving around with the Red service
light showing?

I am aware that the distance the car travels between services is calculated
using the average mpg of the car - this particular car is a manual, so
reasonably economy is possible on Motorway journeys at sensible speed..

For what its worth, the car has had just one owner from new - so I'd like to
think that if you've paid £32,000 for a brand new BMW you would then at
least service it properly..

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Michael
SteveH - 31 Aug 2006 00:37 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Any ideas?

The service intervals are much more complex than that - the ECU monitors
the condition of the oil as part of it's decision making. A 530i will
have been a director's company car, no doubt, which means it'll have
spend a lot of time cruising up and down motorways where oil will remain
in good condition for many miles. I wouldn't worry about it myself.
Signature

Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI -  COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

Pete - 31 Aug 2006 01:26 GMT
> the ECU monitors
> the condition of the oil as part of it's decision making.

Does it really?  I thought it just counts the number of engine starts
and gallons/liters of fuel consumed, maybe also the rpms.  I was not
aware that it somehow monitors the oil condition.  Do you have a link to
some more literature of how this actually works?

Thanks,
Pete
SteveH - 31 Aug 2006 06:50 GMT
> > the ECU monitors
> > the condition of the oil as part of it's decision making.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> aware that it somehow monitors the oil condition.  Do you have a link to
> some more literature of how this actually works?

Just what I'd been told [1] about variable service intervals. Something
to do with measuring translucency.

[1] By a salesman.

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Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI -  COSOC KOTL
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Pete - 31 Aug 2006 15:24 GMT
> Just what I'd been told [1] about variable service intervals. Something
> to do with measuring translucency.

The reason why I find it suspicious is that even if you change your oil, but
do not physically reset the oil monitor, it'll come on telling you to change
oil.  If it was able to monitor the oil condition, it would know that the
oil is fresh and would not come on.  At least that's how it is on the
US-spec BMWs.

> [1] By a salesman.

Ah, that explains a lot. :)

Cheers,

Pete
Bob Smitter - 31 Aug 2006 15:38 GMT
When SI first were installed in BMWs, the computer measured
several parameters to determine when service was due.  They included
things such as # of cold starts, # of warm atarts, mileage, engine operating
temperature, and perhaps others.

BMW found that all these complicated calculations equated to the
number of gallons of fuel burned.  So now, in the latest models, the
only thing that determines service intervals is the amount of fuel the
engine has used.

There is no optical sensor, no "analytical chemist in the oil pan", no
particulate sensor, no nothing.  When you have burned "X" amount
of fuel, you are due a service.

>> Just what I'd been told [1] about variable service intervals. Something
>> to do with measuring translucency.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Pete
Pete - 31 Aug 2006 17:31 GMT
> There is no optical sensor, no "analytical chemist in the oil pan", no
> particulate sensor, no nothing.  When you have burned "X" amount
> of fuel, you are due a service.

That's what I thought.

Is there a way to adjust the "X" amount (with service tool/computer)?  I was
thinking that "X" could be different depending on the type of oil you use,
ie. smaller for mineral oil, larger for some "long life" type oil (available
in Europe).

Thanks,
Pete
Chris Whelan - 31 Aug 2006 21:18 GMT

> Is there a way to adjust the "X" amount (with service tool/computer)?  I
> was thinking that "X" could be different depending on the type of oil you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks,
> Pete

There certainly is if you have a VW...

Chris

Signature

Remove prejudice to reply.

Jeff Strickland - 01 Sep 2006 01:52 GMT
> When SI first were installed in BMWs, the computer measured
> several parameters to determine when service was due.  They included
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> particulate sensor, no nothing.  When you have burned "X" amount
> of fuel, you are due a service.

That actually makes lots of sense. And, it's simple.
Andrew Morton - 31 Aug 2006 15:38 GMT
>> Just what I'd been told [1] about variable service intervals.
>> Something to do with measuring translucency.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> condition, it would know that the oil is fresh and would not come on.
> At least that's how it is on the US-spec BMWs.

Not only that, but freshly changed oil goes black very quickly from the
small amount of black stuff left in.

>> [1] By a salesman.
>
> Ah, that explains a lot. :)

Indeed.

Of course, /European/-spec BMWs have a built-in gas chromatograph-coupled
mass spectrometer to check the oil composition ;-)

Andrew
Pete - 31 Aug 2006 17:37 GMT
> Not only that, but freshly changed oil goes black very quickly from the
> small amount of black stuff left in.

Well yeah.  If anyone out there came up with an oil sensor that judges oil
condition solely by its color, then it's a very poor sensor. :)  I can do
that myself by pulling the dipstick (sans the newest BMW models), alas it's
pretty useless as you mentioned.

I think GM/Delphi developed some kind of an engine oil sensor that monitors
oil condition (and not by its looks), but I can't remember now what it
measures exactly and onn which cars it is used.

Pete
Jeff Strickland - 01 Sep 2006 01:49 GMT
I'm not certain that it can actually monitor oil samples, but I have every
confidence that if the computer knows the car starts, runs for an hour at
70, then another 40 minutes ar various speeds, then stops. then starts
again, runs 40 minutes at various speeds, then goes an hour at 70, then
stops, it should be able to compute that the oil -- assuming the oil meets
the specifications -- should last for a defined period. Your and my
performance might be different than the OP's, but our driving pattern should
be significanltly different as well.

Oil is a very precise science, and the old days of changing the oil because
90 days, or "x" thousand miles, have gone by is just not valid anymore. We
need car makers to monitor this sort of stuff, and turn on a light, as BMW
does, that alerts us that we need to change the oil. Oil is in increasingly
short supply, and changing it before it is needed -- time or miles have
passed by -- is simply unacceptable these days.

It has been a long time since the 3000 mile oil change was a real
requirement for the health of your engine. Today, most cars go 7500 miles
according to factory warranty specifications, and some cars go much longer.
I'm surprised the Sierra Club, et al, do not go after Jiffy Lube, et al, for
prompting us to change oil when it isn't necessary.

>> Just what I'd been told [1] about variable service intervals. Something
>> to do with measuring translucency.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Pete
Adrian - 01 Sep 2006 08:12 GMT
> It has been a long time since the 3000 mile oil change was a real
> requirement for the health of your engine.

<waves>
I've got one with a 1500 mile engine oil change interval.
PC Paul - 01 Sep 2006 20:06 GMT
>> It has been a long time since the 3000 mile oil change was a real
>> requirement for the health of your engine.
>
> <waves>
> I've got one with a 1500 mile engine oil change interval.

My old Supra used to change it's own every 1000 miles or so...
SteveH - 31 Aug 2006 18:18 GMT
> > > the ECU monitors
> > > the condition of the oil as part of it's decision making.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> [1] By a salesman.

OK, found this from way back in 1997:

<cut & pasted article from DesignNews.com>

Capacitive sensor measures oil quality
A unique oil-quality sensor under evaluation by Cummins, Detroit Diesel,
and BMW, may someday signal drivers when their oil needs changing. It's
based on a low-cost ceramic capacitive sensor that measures variations
in the dielectric constant of the oil. New motor oil has a dielectric
constant of about 2.19, but after about 400 hours use, the antioxidant
additives in the oil break down and the value climbs to roughly 3.20.
The sensor works much like any capacitive sensor. The substance to be
measured (oil) passes freely between two small, parallel metal plates
spaced roughly 0.010 to 0.020 inches apart. With the area and spacing
known, the capacitance value becomes a function only of two values: the
dielectric constant of the oil itself, and one major stumbling
block--temperature.
"Nobody knew how to block off the temperature effect and only measure
the aging of the oil," says Kyong M. Park, vice president of R&D at
Kavlico (Moorpark, CA), the sensor's manufacturer. His patented
solution: incorporate an analog signal conditioner consisting of
feedback resistors for offsets and gain, and select one resistor that
changes resistance in direct proportion to oil's dielectric-constant
variation with temperature.
Park also overcame a soot contamination problem present in diesel
engines. "We developed a special silicon-based coating to prevent the
soot from sticking to the sensor," he explains.
A serendipitous advantage of the Kavlico sensor is that water
contamination-a fairly common and damaging situation-can also be
detected because the dielectric constant of water is 87. "A one-percent
contamination of the oil with water or coolant will increase the
dielectric constant enough to trigger an alarm," says Park.
Kavlico isn't the only company working on an oil-quality sensor. Control
Devices (Standish, ME) has joined forces with the University of Maine to
produce one; Sandia National Laboratory has a sensor in development; and
SRI International (Menlo Park, CA) has produced a laboratory prototype
for a auto-manufacturer customer. Park isn't worried. "{Other methods}
measure the oil's acidity, which is less reliable," he says.
Surprisingly, the capacitive concept isn't new. "I remember reading a
Popular Science article 30 years ago about this," says Park. "But nobody
ever made a production sensor before that could do it."

This was published years ago, and BMW advertise cars as having an 'oil
quality sensor' - so it looks like they've been fitting them for a while
(Certainly since the fugly 5-series was launched). Might not be in the
specs. of an E39, though.
Signature

Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI -  COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

Fred W - 31 Aug 2006 20:51 GMT
>>>the ECU monitors
>>>the condition of the oil as part of it's decision making.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> [1] By a salesman.

Obviously a great one, because he made it up and yet you beleived him.
It does no such thing.  It does all the calculations based on running
time, number of starts, etc.  No magic oil sensors...

Signature

-Fred W

admin - 31 Aug 2006 20:57 GMT
>>>> the ECU monitors
>>>> the condition of the oil as part of it's decision making.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> It does no such thing.  It does all the calculations based on running
> time, number of starts, etc.  No magic oil sensors...

Actually - the later models do it strictly on fuel consumed.. which if
you think about it takes into account cold starts (more fuel), short
drives (more fuel), hard use (more fuel)..

So many liter of fuel used (depending on engine) and the light turns on.
Fred W - 01 Sep 2006 16:29 GMT
> Actually - the later models do it strictly on fuel consumed.. which if
> you think about it takes into account cold starts (more fuel), short
> drives (more fuel), hard use (more fuel)..
>
> So many liter of fuel used (depending on engine) and the light turns on.

That doesn't seem to account for the real need to change the oil more
often if you make a lot of short trips.

Signature

-Fred W

Pete - 01 Sep 2006 16:45 GMT
> That doesn't seem to account for the real need to change the oil more
> often if you make a lot of short trips.

Well, it kind of does, because short trips = cold engine = higher fuel
consumption.  And aside from the mileage, there is also the time factor.
Doesn't the manual say you should change the oil once a year, regardless of
miles?

Pete
SteveH - 31 Aug 2006 21:05 GMT
> > Just what I'd been told [1] about variable service intervals. Something
> > to do with measuring translucency.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It does no such thing.  It does all the calculations based on running
> time, number of starts, etc.  No magic oil sensors...

Read the link I posted and the spec. sheet for a new BMW, then.

(I was looking at 3-series until I found out how much BMW want for a
half decent one)

OK, it's not based on translucency - but BMW *do* fit 'oil quality
sensors' these days.
Signature

Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI -  COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

Dave Plowman (News) - 31 Aug 2006 22:55 GMT
> > Obviously a great one, because he made it up and yet you beleived him.
> > It does no such thing.  It does all the calculations based on running
> > time, number of starts, etc.  No magic oil sensors...

> Read the link I posted and the spec. sheet for a new BMW, then.

> (I was looking at 3-series until I found out how much BMW want for a
> half decent one)

> OK, it's not based on translucency - but BMW *do* fit 'oil quality
> sensors' these days.

I read that Merc were one of the first, so I'm not surprised BMW now do.

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*Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

John Carrier - 01 Sep 2006 02:55 GMT
>> the ECU monitors
>> the condition of the oil as part of it's decision making.

No it doesn't.  The E39 system monitors fuel burned only.  Its a pretty good
approximation of the service the engine has seen (highway miles - better
mileage - oil lasts longer and vice versa).  Supposedly, the E60 is more
advanced.

R / John

Service intervals for a 530i in normal operation (mix of driving conditions)
will be in the 15-16000 mile range between oil services.  The service
interval is Oil/Insp1/Oil/Insp2 etc.  Your major inspections occur at
approximately 32000 mile intervals (they include an oil service).

> Does it really?  I thought it just counts the number of engine starts and
> gallons/liters of fuel consumed, maybe also the rpms.  I was not aware
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks,
> Pete
Dave Plowman (News) - 31 Aug 2006 00:41 GMT
> I'm looking at a 2001 E39 BMW 530i with 140k. It has FSH with the last
> stamp at 139k. There are 6 stamps in total, meaning that this car has
> covered an average of 23k miles between services.

> Now, to me, this seems like a long time. Is it at the top end of what
> you can generally eek out of a car like the 530i when most of your
> journeys are long distance Motorway cruises, or is there a worrying
> possibility that the previous owner of this car has been driving around
> with the Red service light showing?

The UK service book has a diagram of the service lights which should be
marked at each service so you can see it was done on time or not.

> I am aware that the distance the car travels between services is
> calculated using the average mpg of the car - this particular car is a
> manual, so reasonably economy is possible on Motorway journeys at
> sensible speed..

> For what its worth, the car has had just one owner from new - so I'd
> like to think that if you've paid £32,000 for a brand new BMW you would
> then at least service it properly..

If the car is running perfectly at 140000 miles I'd say it's been properly
serviced?

Signature

*When blondes have more fun, do they know it?  

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dori A Schmetterling - 31 Aug 2006 20:17 GMT
There's always somebody who is not happy with his lot, however good it is.
Thinks there's something wrong when there isn't...

These automotive forums are a good place for this, especially in worrying
about oil-change intervals.  "I have run my 2004 premium brand car for 7 000
miles since last service and the service indicator hasn't come up yet.
Should I have changed oil at 3 000 miles...?...Will my engine blow up at my
next drive?..."

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]

> If the car is running perfectly at 140000 miles I'd say it's been properly
> serviced?
[...]
 
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