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Car Forum / BMW Cars / October 2006Diesel starting problem - update
Hi All I'm not 100% sure of the netiquette associated with providing an update to a recent thread. I'm sure, if you're like me, that you don't read old threads, so I thought I'd make a posting under a new subject. If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent starting problem. It is not frequent, but has happened again. I'm pretty sure now that it relates to a less than 1/4 full tank. Certainly, in answer to another poster, there is NO cloud of black smoke when it does start. This would presumably indicate that no fuel is getting into the engine, and may suggest a pump or filter problem. The local garage could not identify a problem, but did notice that there was a new fuel filter fitted. I guess this was at a BMW service (I'll ask them next week). My FIL also noted that their BMW (diesel) had a similar starting problem that had a fuel pump relay replaced as a first guess; later the whole pump was replaced which cured the problem. Would this problem suggest that the fuel filter or pump is at fault? Why would a faulty pump only show up as faulty with an empty(ish) tank? >Hi All > >I'm not 100% sure of the netiquette associated with providing an update to a >recent thread. I'm sure, if you're like me, that you don't read old threads, >so I thought I'd make a posting under a new subject. I'd always prefer a followup to the original thread, if I'd been interested in the thread I'd have flagged it as interesting and it would have appeared at the top of the threads list when the followup got posted.  Signaturebof at bof dot me dot uk > Hi All > > I'm not 100% sure of the netiquette associated with providing an update to > a recent thread. I'm sure, if you're like me, that you don't read old > threads, so I thought I'd make a posting under a new subject. Updates are always welcome, as far as I'm concerned. > If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent starting > problem. It is not frequent, but has happened again. I'm pretty sure now [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > starting problem that had a fuel pump relay replaced as a first guess; > later the whole pump was replaced which cured the problem. What's "FIL"? Do you remember my message about the postal van which wouldn't start in the morning, and on which a fuel _lift_ pump replacement cleared the fault? By the way, the diaphragm is the usual culprit. If it's damaged (often not easy to see) it lets air in. The 2 valves are usually trouble free. What I mentioned about fuel filter sealing rubber rings, also applies to fuel lift pump rubber rings. There are usually two of them; one large one which goes at the bottom, and a small one which goes at the top. You used to be able to get replacement diaphragms, but I don't know what the position is now. > Would this problem suggest that the fuel filter or pump is at fault? Why > would a faulty pump only show up as faulty with an empty(ish) tank? I'm not sure about your particular case; but I believe that the longer (in length) the fuel pipe is to the fuel lift pump, the greater loading there is on it. I can only _suggest_ that a low level of fuel in the fuel tank will increase the actual length of the fuel line, and therefore increase the load on the pump (it has to work harder). If your BMW has done a high mileage, and the fuel lift pump is the original one (as far as you know); then changing it could be accepted as long term _maintenance_, and be an acceptable thing to do. An example: An engine camshaft drive belt is usually recommended to be changed at a certain mileage (60,000 miles comes to mind). It might run much longer, but I would certainly change it as recommended, _for my peace of mind_ if nothing else. A broken belt can/will do a lot of damage to pistons, valves, and even connecting rods. Sylvain. > Hi All > If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent starting > problem. It is not frequent, but has happened again. I'm pretty sure now > that it relates to a less than 1/4 full tank. Certainly, in answer to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Would this problem suggest that the fuel filter or pump is at fault? Why > would a faulty pump only show up as faulty with an empty(ish) tank? When the problem occurs try taking off the filler cap if a sucking sound is heard then try starting the engine now, if that cures the problem then that is your source right there, vacuum, 1mm hole in the cap usually fixes the problem. //J >> Hi All > > If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > problem then that is your source right there, vacuum, 1mm hole in the > cap usually fixes the problem. Thanks for that (and to Silvain, yes I do remember your earlier comment). I've had a listen at the tank. To me, it doesn't sound quite right. A sort of gurgling, and screeching. Maybe this is what the fuel lift pump should sound like. If I can get the car going this morning, I'll take it down to our local garage again. I can't understand why the engine runs properly when it is going though. >>> Hi All >> > If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > our local garage again. > I can't understand why the engine runs properly when it is going though. I had a faulty (genuine new BMW) lift pump fitted in my 525TDS and difficult starting was its result. I think it had no dip tube or it leaked slowly at the top, as it would only start when the tank was nearly full - i.e. was able to prime down to about 3/4 full. I also fitted a set of new BERU glowplugs which weren't expensive but are apparently good I later discovered. Nick >>> Hi All >> > If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > sound like. If I can get the car going this morning, I'll take it down to > our local garage again. > I can't understand why the engine runs properly when it is going though. >>> Hi All >> > If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > sound like. If I can get the car going this morning, I'll take it down to > our local garage again. > I can't understand why the engine runs properly when it is going though. You must remember that the _cranking_ speed is very low. If you were somehow able to turn your engine over at at least idling speed (500 rpm approx), it would probably start quite easily. Sylvain. > Thanks for that (and to Silvain, yes I do remember your earlier > comment). I've had a listen at the tank. To me, it doesn't sound [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I can't understand why the engine runs properly when it is going > though. Any chance you have a small air leak at the inlet side of the fuel pump, or even across the pump itself? SignatureTony Williams. >> Thanks for that (and to Silvain, yes I do remember your earlier >> comment). I've had a listen at the tank. To me, it doesn't sound [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Any chance you have a small air leak at the inlet side > of the fuel pump, or even across the pump itself? Yes - would give the symptoms you describe as I said in an earlier post and is what happened to mine Nick > If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent starting problem. How the hell are we supposed to recall this on a new thread, you dummy? Is it diesel or petrol? If petrol replace the condenser. If that doesn't sort it, it might be the air vent to the tank; petrol or diesel. Run the tank dry till the problem starts then remove the cap to allow air into the tank. If that solves it, you need to clean the filler cap or replace it. If that isn't the problem, run the fuel tank as low as you can, then empty it. If the tank has water in, you have found the problem. While this does come under the remit of DIY, as with computer threads, they aught to be posted to newsgroups better suited to the problem. But of course the thing is, you are a dummy. >> If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent >> starting problem. > > How the hell are we supposed to recall this on a new thread, you > dummy? Well, silly me. Sorry! > Is it diesel or petrol? Oh dear! I bet you wish you could crawl into a hole now. Did you read the subject? <snip mostly quite useful stuff> >>> If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent >>> starting problem. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > <snip mostly quite useful stuff> LOL well done ! > >> If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent > >> starting problem. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Oh dear! I bet you wish you could crawl into a hole now. Did you read the > subject? No. I'd forgotten all about you. I never remembered the title when I wrote the answers to your problem and I am not stuck with a f.cked up car. > <snip mostly quite useful stuff> Typical. And the car is working now? Not. What I feel is hope that you will not be such a stupid prick in the future and that I am hoping in vain. You total tosser. >> > Is it diesel or petrol? >> >> Oh dear! I bet you wish you could crawl into a hole now. Did you read the >> subject? > >No. >Subject: Re: Diesel starting problem - update How bout now? SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net >> If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent starting >> problem. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > they aught to be posted to newsgroups better suited to the problem. But > of course the thing is, you are a dummy. "Manners maketh man". Need I say more? Sylvain. >> If you can recall, I have an old BMW that has an intermittent starting problem. I have a lousy short term memory, but I remembered the original thread. Perhaps if you didn't find it of interest you wouldn't remember it. I did, and appreciate the update. Signaturehttp://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK. http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL! http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers. http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower. We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Weatherlawyer" <Weatherlawyer@hotmail.com> saying something like: >How the hell are we supposed to recall this on a new thread, you dummy? > >Is it diesel or petrol? You TTC. SignatureDave > We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the > drugs began to take hold. I remember "Weatherlawyer" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You TTC. Don't forget to let us know the eventual outcome. I for one am interested. Don't forget that things get worse in the cold weather; so act _now_. Sylvain. Hi, I had a 525TDS with similar starting issue. When fuel level came below 20 ltrs, starting became worse. Replaced in-tank fuel-pump,problem solved. Regards, Kees. >> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >> drugs began to take hold. I remember "Weatherlawyer" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Sylvain. > Hi All > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Why would a faulty pump only show up as faulty with an empty(ish) > tank? Well, fitting a new lift-pump (is that the corect term fo the pump actually in the tank?) seems to have cured the problem. Local garage did the job for half of what the BMW dealer wanted! >> Hi All >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > actually in the tank?) seems to have cured the problem. > Local garage did the job for half of what the BMW dealer wanted! I always welcome updates. Yes, you have had a lift pump replaced; being in the tank (not attached to the engine) means that it's an electric one. Sylvain. > I always welcome updates. > Yes, you have had a lift pump replaced; being in the tank (not attached to > the engine) means that it's an electric one. What is it with this fitting of fuel pumps in the tank? I have a petrol Rover 45 and my in tank pump failed just before Rover collapsed. The problem occurred when the temperature increased during the summer of 2003. Twice I had a problem with the pump, but I was gob smacked to learn that it sat in a pool of petrol. I am used to working on fast jets that have their pumps suspended in AVTAG, but that is a hell of a lot less inflammable than petrol. Are we going in the right direction here? Dave >> I always welcome updates. >> Yes, you have had a lift pump replaced; being in the tank (not [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Are we going in the right direction here? > Dave Probably. Its a less harsh environment than outside the tank, where mud salt and water combine to corrode the sh.t out of it. There are also issues about leakages and suchlike that I forget. >>> I always welcome updates. >>> Yes, you have had a lift pump replaced; being in the tank (not attached [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Probably. Its a less harsh environment than outside the tank, where mud > salt and water combine to corrode the sh.t out of it. > There are also issues about leakages and suchlike that I forget. Reducing the length of the inlet pipe (or doing away with altogether?) is always a good thing. It reduces the load on the pump, and allows it to be made smaller. Sylvain. > >>> I always welcome updates. > >>> Yes, you have had a lift pump replaced; being in the tank (not attached [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Sylvain. I think Dave is concerned that a spark from the pump could result in a big hole where the tank used to be! I too have wondered about this and assume the pump motor is a brushless design ? Pete >>>>> I always welcome updates. >>>>> Yes, you have had a lift pump replaced; being in the tank (not [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > hole where the tank used to be! I too have wondered about this and assume > the pump motor is a brushless design ? Not at all. Diesel is a good spark quencher. So is petrol. You need a very critical mixture of air and fuel to ignite. That is found ABOVE the fuel level... sometimes - but rarely. Mostly its solid vapour..but not below it. See reports on the aircraft that crashed in new york. Despite the problem being a feature of that particular aircraft, its only ever happened ONCE. Very few cars have petrol tanks explode on impact. You can toss a cigarette into a poll of petrol and it won't ignite. Don't believe everything you see in Hollywood films... > Pete >> I think Dave is concerned that a spark from the pump could result in a big >> hole where the tank used to be! I too have wondered about this and assume [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >new york. Despite the problem being a feature of that particular >aircraft, its only ever happened ONCE. For a good demonstration of this try pouring diesel fuel on a bonfire you're trying to light. It's really really hard to get it to burn. Chances are you won't be able to light it even if it's on paper. Forget about getting wood to light that's soaked in this stuff. Gasoline on the other hand, when poured on a (unlit) pile of wood is downright dangerous as the vapours creep quite a long way. You drop a match on this and suddenly you find yourself in a 30' circle of instantaneous flame. Ask me how I know. Richard "singed eyebrows" Sexton SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net >>> I think Dave is concerned that a spark from the pump could result in a big >>> hole where the tank used to be! I too have wondered about this and assume [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Richard "singed eyebrows" Sexton Is that all? I ended up with a wrecked anorak, the fire brigade and synthetic skin all over me after a dash to A & E.... There is no doubt that whilst petrol is actually very hard to light in liquid form - as is diesel - once vaporised in a nice heavy cloud with a decent concentration gradient, a match will certainly set it off many feet away. I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting down lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe distance..... >> Gasoline on the other hand, when poured on a (unlit) pile >> of wood is downright dangerous as the vapours creep quite [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >down lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe >distance..... Keep in mind that 30' circle of fire that a second later was a 20' tall mushroom cloud of flames came from one cup (about 300 ml) of gasoline. Apparantly it would have been one helluva photograph, me walking away with this giant fireball behind me. The stuff is unbelievably potent. SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net >>> Gasoline on the other hand, when poured on a (unlit) pile >>> of wood is downright dangerous as the vapours creep quite [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > The stuff is unbelievably potent. Oh - I tipped a couple of pints on. MY ball was bigger than YOUR ball. I didn't actually see it. I was covering what was left of my face with my hands and rolling around on the ground to put myself out, then into the neighbors kitchen to get hosed down. >I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting >down lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe >distance..... What kind of complete idiot does this? No doubt there were children standing around... You should be locked up to protect the public. SignatureMr X >> I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting >> down lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe >> distance..... > > What kind of complete idiot does this? One hwo ws fully aware of te anegrs, or so he thought. > No doubt there were children standing around... No, there was no one withing 50 yards > You should be locked up to protect the public. You should shove your finger up your arse and wiggle it about. >>> I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting down >>> lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > One hwo ws fully aware of te anegrs, or so he thought. 15', you were lucky! I used a bit of burning paper on the end of a broomstick and laid down flat. Quite a loud bang considering the lack of space confinement. Like the paper dart idea though - much more elegant than a broomstick :o) SignatureBob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) >>>> I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting down >>>> lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >space confinement. Like the paper dart idea though - much more elegant than >a broomstick :o) You think it is a joking matter? It seems to be the case that the more time there is between the dispensing of the petrol and its ignition, the greater the hazard (and yes, I do understand why this might be). SignatureMr X The message <50vyonALqOMFFwrA@privacy.net> from Mr X <me@privacy.net> contains these words: > It seems to be the case that the more time there is between the > dispensing of the petrol and its ignition, the greater the hazard (and > yes, I do understand why this might be). Oooh, yes. I remember that one. When I was about 15 a friend and I came by about ten gallons of petrol that had had a bit of diesel mixed in it. So we waited for a very still evening and sploshed it all round a test-digging where the M26 now runs near Otford. Set it off remotely after about five minutes for it to evaporate 'cos we'd heard about fuel-air explosives and wanted to try one for ourselves. Damned lucky we were nearly 100 yards away. Some of the saplings it snapped off must have been nearly 2" thick. SignatureSkipweasel Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. > The message <50vyonALqOMFFwrA@privacy.net> > from Mr X <me@privacy.net> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > were nearly 100 yards away. Some of the saplings it snapped off must > have been nearly 2" thick. I remember at Farnborough air show they did a mock attack on something with the finale of blowing it up with napalm. The resulting smoke ring was about 5 miles across by the time it dissipated at 15,000 feet.. >>>>> I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting down >>>>> lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > dispensing of the petrol and its ignition, the greater the hazard (and > yes, I do understand why this might be). You have to laugh really. Otherwise you become a bore. >>> I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting >>> down lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >One hwo ws fully aware of te anegrs, or so he thought. Que? >> You should be locked up to protect the public. > >You should shove your finger up your arse and wiggle it about. I apologise -- my comments were not intended to be an attack on yourself personally but reflected my astonishment that some people (in general) can be so ignorant regarding the extreme dangers of petroleum vapour. SignatureMr X >>>> I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting >>>> down lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > personally but reflected my astonishment that some people (in general) > can be so ignorant regarding the extreme dangers of petroleum vapour. What got me on that occasion was just how FAR the vapour would travel at ground level on a calm hot day. I was YARDS away. It was an unlucky combination of weather, and timing. >>>>> I was about 15 feet from the petrol soaked bonfire, squatting >>>>> down lighting a paper dart to throw at it from what I thought was a safe [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >ground level on a calm hot day. I was YARDS away. It was an unlucky >combination of weather, and timing. Yes, I know just what you mean... And the "wooofff!" sound is scary, too See! I've done it as well! SignatureMr X I have a new policy of not arguing with pedants. The message <1159884150.31322.0@proxy00.news.clara.net> from The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c> contains these words: > Not at all. Diesel is a good spark quencher. So is petrol. If you take the sender out of a petrol tank and supply it with 12V you can get quite noticeable sparks if you waggle the arm up and down. Doesn't matter a toss in a petrol tank as there's no appreciable amount of oxygen in there. SignatureSkipweasel Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. > Very few cars have petrol tanks explode on impact. You can toss a > cigarette into a poll of petrol and it won't ignite. Let me back up a few more steps before you demonstrate. Eisboch > Twice I had a problem with the pump, but I was gob smacked to learn that > it sat in a pool of petrol. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Are we going in the right direction here? It's not a particularly big deal. Unless you suck the tank totally dry, the pump is totally immersed in fuel and it can't ignite anything because there's no oxygen. Even if you do expose the pump, gasoline is so volatile that the vapour space in a gas tank is almost guaranteed to be above the upper explosive limit. The dangerous part is near the opening to gasoline containers where the vapour can mingle with air...in the fuel tank is pretty much a non-event. Tom. > I am used to working on fast jets that have their pumps suspended in > AVTAG, but that is a hell of a lot less inflammable than petrol. At what altitude? >>I am used to working on fast jets that have their pumps suspended in >>AVTAG, but that is a hell of a lot less inflammable than petrol. > > At what altitude? Zero to about 50 foot, depending on the tide. It was my job to recommission them, ready for flight. Having read other posts to my original one, I can see where I went wrong in assuming that there could be a huge explosion in a petrol tank now. The first thing that gets done to an aircraft, when it lands and taxies in, (and I had forgotten this) is it gets fully fuelled up. Thus reducing the fuel laden air in the tanks. Many thanks to all Dave >I am used to working on fast jets that have their pumps suspended in >AVTAG, but that is a hell of a lot less inflammable than petrol. It's petrol vapour that is a real problem/danger not liquid petrol. SignatureMr X |
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