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Car Forum / BMW Cars / October 2006do you REALLY need the Inspection I and II if you can replace stuff yourself?
I can check tubes and wires visually but I do not have any diagnostic equipment. I am due for the Inspection II soon and I don't mind having the oil changed. I can change spark plug wires and visually check stuff. Is there a compelling argument for paying $675 for an inspection II on a 1997 528i with 73,000 miles on it? >I can check tubes and wires visually but I do not have any diagnostic > equipment. I am due for the Inspection II soon and I don't mind having [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is there a compelling argument for paying $675 for an inspection II on > a 1997 528i with 73,000 miles on it? Well, the Insp 1 & 2 does have a dump of the diagnostic system, but most everything else is a pretty simple DIY. You could have you dealer or independent mechanic do just the diagnostics. The 97 needs a reset tool for the service indicator although I think there's even a DIY workaround for that. Don't forget fluids besides oil. Diff, trans, and P/S should get a drain and fill on roughly the Insp 1/2 interval. Coolant should be drained and refilled every 4 (current BMW practice) or 2 years (pre-free-maintenance sched). Air and microfilters should probably be replaced. R / John > Well, the Insp 1 & 2 does have a dump of the diagnostic system, but most > everything else is a pretty simple DIY. You could have you dealer or > independent mechanic do just the diagnostics. I think you would only need to read codes if the Check Engine light is lit. Otherwise, there is nothing to "dump". Also, not sure if you still can in a '97, but you may be able to do the 5-stomp to extract codes. Any '97 E39 owners know for sure? > The 97 needs a reset tool for > the service indicator although I think there's even a DIY workaround for > that. Should be able to use the jumper wire method to reset the service indicator too. Again, any '97 E39 owners care to comment?  Signature-Fred W No, there is no compelling reason in my book. If you read up on the contents of Inspection II, you may find that there are fluids to replace, but the stuff that says "check" or "adjust", then you should be able to check or adjust as needed. Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that there are no plug wires on your car. >I can check tubes and wires visually but I do not have any diagnostic > equipment. I am due for the Inspection II soon and I don't mind having [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is there a compelling argument for paying $675 for an inspection II on > a 1997 528i with 73,000 miles on it? > Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that > there are no plug wires on your car. You need to remove the engine cover to be aware of this. Signature*If PROGRESS is for advancement, what does that make CONGRESS mean? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. Jeff Strickland <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote: > Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that > there are no plug wires on your car. I'm just a Camry owner who's thinking/dreaming about a BMW, but what mysterious German ignition technology is this that doesn't require high voltage wires to the positive leads of the spark plugs? (or are we talking about a diesel model?) > Jeff Strickland <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > voltage wires to the positive leads of the spark plugs? (or are we talking > about a diesel model?) There are wires hidden under a plastic cover, but the cars use individual coils mounts on the plugs. R / John > I'm just a Camry owner who's thinking/dreaming about a BMW, but what > mysterious German ignition technology is this that doesn't require high > voltage wires to the positive leads of the spark plugs? Most modern engines don't have a distributor, but use one coil for each cylinder, the coil being triggered by the engine ECU. And the coil is directly attached to the plug so no plug leads as such. Signature*Income tax service - We‘ve got what it takes to take what you've got. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> I'm just a Camry owner who's thinking/dreaming about a BMW, but what >> mysterious German ignition technology is this that doesn't require high >> voltage wires to the positive leads of the spark plugs? > > Most modern engines don't have a distributor, but use one coil for each > cylinder, I think you'll find that, except for cars designed without regard for price, there isn't a coil for every cylinder, and you will find spark plug wires. Certainly, there are spark plug wires on the 2007 Camry, which is a newer (i.e. more modern) design than any presently shipping BMW. Camrys also outsell BMWs by a large margin, so I think the "most...engines" claim is also suspect. > > Most modern engines don't have a distributor, but use one coil for each > > cylinder, > I think you'll find that, except for cars designed without regard for > price, there isn't a coil for every cylinder, and you will find spark > plug wires. Certainly, there are spark plug wires on the 2007 Camry, > which is a newer (i.e. more modern) design than any presently shipping > BMW. Camrys also outsell BMWs by a large margin, so I think the > "most...engines" claim is also suspect. There are of course variations but I was trying to keep it simple. There aren't plug leads in the sense of replacing them as you'd do with a distributor ignition system. Signature*My designated driver drove me to drink Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>> I'm just a Camry owner who's thinking/dreaming about a BMW, but what >>> mysterious German ignition technology is this that doesn't require high [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >price, there isn't a coil for every cylinder, and you will find spark >plug wires. There are no cars made for sale that are "designed without regard for price". >Certainly, there are spark plug wires on the 2007 Camry, >which is a newer (i.e. more modern) design than any presently >shipping BMW. Wrong again. Newer != more modern. >Camrys also outsell BMWs by a large margin, so I think the >"most...engines" claim is also suspect. Maybe so. > There are no cars made for sale that are "designed without regard for > price". Vanquish. McLaren. Maybach. > Wrong again. Newer != more modern. If you don't think the 2007 Camry engine and tranny are modern designs, you are in a very small minority. >> There are no cars made for sale that are "designed without regard for >> price". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you don't think the 2007 Camry engine and tranny are modern designs, > you are in a very small minority. Arguing with Dizzy is like teaching a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and wastes your time. Having said that, newer is not necessarily more modern. In the case if the Camry it could be, but Dizzy is quick to pick the least significant detail and pick it apart. And, the cars you listed are not cars that are offered for sale to the general public. Dizzy was speaking of consumer products, there is no consumer product made that is made without regard to cost or price. Toyota is king of the price conscious auto makers; everything they do (make) gives serious consideration to price points. (Damn it! I just defended Dizzy.) Dishonestly-snipped context restored. >>>I think you'll find that, except for cars designed without regard for >>>price, there isn't a coil for every cylinder, and you will find spark [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Vanquish. McLaren. Maybach. None of which are "designed without regard for price". Not even close, in the cases of the Maybach and Vanquish. Do they have even one pound of steel that could have been replaced with magnesium or titanium or carbon fiber for a weight savings that would be too expensive to be worth it? Learn how to think. >>>Certainly, there are spark plug wires on the 2007 Camry, >>>which is a newer (i.e. more modern) design than any presently [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If you don't think the 2007 Camry engine and tranny are modern designs, >you are in a very small minority. I didn't say they weren't "modern", cretin. I merely pointed-out that being newer doesn't make them MORE modern than "any presently shipping BMW". Learn how to read. >>> I'm just a Camry owner who's thinking/dreaming about a BMW, but what >>> mysterious German ignition technology is this that doesn't require high [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > also outsell BMWs by a large margin, so I think the "most...engines" claim > is also suspect. I agree that the claim of :most cars" is a bit strong, but the technology is sound and is spreading. I don't know about your Camry, but if what you say is true, I'm surprised. Your car should have a 3 coils with each one connected to two spark plugs, either by plug wire or by a direct connection (better). In any case, I'd be surprised to open your hood and find a distributor. > I agree that the claim of :most cars" is a bit strong, but the > technology is sound and is spreading. I don't know about your Camry, but > if what you say is true, I'm surprised. Your car should have a 3 coils > with each one connected to two spark plugs, either by plug wire or by a > direct connection (better). In any case, I'd be surprised to open your > hood and find a distributor. Yes, you're quite right, without actually pulling the engine shroud (when did manufacturers start thinking engines need to be hidden like this, anyway?) IIRC there's one coil for every 2 cylinders, with one coil-on-plug assembly and a high voltage wire going to the second, paired cylinder. I think "most" manufacturers are sharing the coils in this way. After all, a wire is much cheaper than a coil-on-plug assembly. In some previous Camry designs, there was even a so-called waste spark system in which the spark plugs went off even in cylinders on an exhaust stroke, which saved money for the manufacturer, but made the plugs wear out twice as fast. (I guess this is the technique used even on modern engines that share the coils.) But, actually, the BMW I really want is one of those 2-litre diesels which aren't sold in my country (Canada) because there's too much sulphur in the diesel fuel that comes from the tar sands here. >> I agree that the claim of :most cars" is a bit strong, but the technology >> is sound and is spreading. I don't know about your Camry, but if what you [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > cylinder. I think "most" manufacturers are sharing the coils in this way. > After all, a wire is much cheaper than a coil-on-plug assembly. That's true, but a separate coil is more efficient -- the cycle time is longer (the rest time is longer) -- when there are more coils. > In some previous Camry designs, there was even a so-called waste spark > system in which the spark plugs went off even in cylinders on an exhaust > stroke, which saved money for the manufacturer, but made the plugs wear > out twice as fast. (I guess this is the technique used even on modern > engines that share the coils.) Well it means the coil must have twice the output of one used for a single cylinder, so the savings aren't so obvious. It also means fairly tortuous HT wiring on many engine designs if the wasted spark is on the exhaust stroke - which in some ways defeats the beauty of the single coil idea - no chances of cross firing. Signature*"I am " is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Jeff Strickland <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > voltage wires to the positive leads of the spark plugs? (or are we talking > about a diesel model?) Each spark plug gets its own coil mounted directly above the sparkplug. The coil is connected directly to the respective plug, and is fired by input (output, really) from the engine computer. Toyota is starting to do this as well. They are using three coils, one to be shared by two plugs in a V6, but the idea is the same. >> Jeff Strickland <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The coil is connected directly to the respective plug, and is fired by > input (output, really) from the engine computer. And that connection is a wire from the ECU, not high tension, but a wire none the less. R / John >>> Jeff Strickland <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And that connection is a wire from the ECU, not high tension, but a wire > none the less. Of course it is, but it is a wire that looks the same as tens of miles of other wires in the car, so noticing it would be a challenge for one that can't tell if the plug wires are present or not. >> Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that >> there are no plug wires on your car. > > You need to remove the engine cover to be aware of this. Technically, all one need do is realize there is no distributor with the telltale wires leading from it to the sparkplugs. There is no real reason to remove the engine cover to see this. That is, I could easily recognize this on my car without taking the cover off. > >> Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that > >> there are no plug wires on your car. > > > > You need to remove the engine cover to be aware of this. > Technically, all one need do is realize there is no distributor with the > telltale wires leading from it to the sparkplugs. There is no real > reason to remove the engine cover to see this. That is, I could easily > recognize this on my car without taking the cover off. Interesting point. You mean on an engine with a cover the distributor and plug leads would go through it? Can't see the point in the cover, then. Not that I do anyway. ;-) Signature*Constipated People Don't Give A Crap* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> >> Having said that, if you had ever raised the hood, you would know that >> >> there are no plug wires on your car. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > plug leads would go through it? Can't see the point in the cover, then. > Not that I do anyway. ;-) In my humble opinion, the cover is merely for looks. It serves no practical purpose other than to hide stuff that most folks have no interest in anyway. Automakers seem to think that we want to see an uncluttered engine bay, and that if they route the clutter in an organized fashion then put a cover over it, we will be impressed by the effort. The automaker that does this better will presumably get the sale, so they go to great lengths to only allow the dip stick to be found and have the rest remain a great mystery. > In my humble opinion, the cover is merely for looks. It serves no > practical purpose other than to hide stuff that most folks have no [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > only allow the dip stick to be found and have the rest remain a great > mystery. Thought the dipstick was now history on the E90 and subsequent models. Tom K. >> In my humble opinion, the cover is merely for looks. It serves no >> practical purpose other than to hide stuff that most folks have no [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Thought the dipstick was now history on the E90 and subsequent models. The Engine Oil dip stick is history? That's news to me. yes, no dipstick >>> In my humble opinion, the cover is merely for looks. It serves no >>> practical purpose other than to hide stuff that most folks have no [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The Engine Oil dip stick is history? That's news to me. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >yes, no dipstick Not even a driver? >>>> In my humble opinion, the cover is merely for looks. It serves no >>>> practical purpose other than to hide stuff that most folks have no [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> The Engine Oil dip stick is history? That's news to me. Sir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK >yes, no dipstick Just as well because many BMW owners never open the hood/bonnet unless they have to. Sir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > yes, no dipstick I hope they have fixed the Low Oil Level sensor ... I have an E46 that tells me the oil level is low, even when I know it is fine. I changed the oil and filter, and poured in 7 quarts but the light still comes on. Now, I am going to have to replace the low oil sensor to correct the trouble. If I had no dipstick to confirm proper level, I'd have to believe the sensor and perhaps add too much oil in an attempt to turn out the light. I find it a bit bothersome (and presumptive) to remove the engine oil dip stick. I can understand the transmission dipstick taking a bye, but I prefer to see the engine oil level when I want to. >> yes, no dipstick > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > have to believe the sensor and perhaps add too much oil in an attempt to > turn out the light. Luckily, I've never seen that light on my E46 although it came on once in my Z4 when the car was on a mild grade with the level about 1/2 quart down! Be happy you don't have a late BMW R series motorcycle where bad sensors and software give inaccurate warnings unless the level is over full. Since those boxer engines have a sight glass near the bottom of the engine, not a dipstick, the check involves waiting 10 minutes for oil to drain out of the cooler and then crawling around on the ground with a flashlight! > I find it a bit bothersome (and presumptive) to remove the engine oil dip > stick. I can understand the transmission dipstick taking a bye, but I > prefer to see the engine oil level when I want to. Ain't technology grand? Tom K. >>> yes, no dipstick >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > drain out of the cooler and then crawling around on the ground with a > flashlight! Or check it before you start off in the morning ? Nick > Or check it before you start off in the morning ? Nope. The oil needs to be warm for an accurate sight-glass reading & you'd still be on the ground with a flashlight. Tom K. >> Or check it before you start off in the morning ? > > Nope. The oil needs to be warm for an accurate sight-glass reading & > you'd still be on the ground with a flashlight. > > Tom K. I am interested as I am hopefully going to find a late R at a fair price soon... so I have to check the oil after a ride, after de-kitting and making a cuppa then ? I assume it will not lose any before the next ride? Nick >>> Or check it before you start off in the morning ? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Nick It's described as the "oil checking dance" (I'm reminded of the "Fish-slapping dance", but that's another story). After a ride, leave the bike on the sidestand for 5 minutes, then on the centerstand for another 5 minutes to allow the oil to fully drain into the sump. Then check the sight-glass near the bottom of the engine, which on my RT model is pretty well hidden by part of the fairing. It's now OK, as the system has been reprogrammed so there are no more false warnings from the OBC, and oil consumption on my bike after break-in is only about a quart 5,000 miles. Of course, YMMV - but I hope you find the boxer you're looking for - they're great bikes, in spite of their idiosyncrasies. Tom K. > It's described as the "oil checking dance" (I'm reminded of the > "Fish-slapping dance", but that's another story). After a ride, leave the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > course, YMMV - but I hope you find the boxer you're looking for - they're > great bikes, in spite of their idiosyncrasies. One word. Surging... Signature-Fred W > One word. Surging... Eliminated as of the 2005 hex-heads (all R1200...) with the switch from Bosch to BMW engine controls. For the older 1150s, the Techlusion does the trick. Tom K. >> One word. Surging... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Tom K. Eliminated as of 2003 with the dual-plug heads.. >>One word. Surging... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Tom K. Yep. I know. I've been there, done that... Solution is at the expense of fuel mileage. I assumed that since we were talking used bikes that we weren't talking about hex heads... PS - sorry about the beemer talk. I know this is supposed to be a bimmer group. Signature-Fred W >>>One word. Surging... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of fuel mileage. I assumed that since we were talking used bikes that we > weren't talking about hex heads... As Nick mentioned "late model R", I interpreted it as hex head. Of course, "how late is late" is sort of like "how long is a piece of string". > PS - sorry about the beemer talk. I know this is supposed to be a bimmer > group. I guess enjoying both makes us "beamers"! Tom K. >>>>One word. Surging... >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Tom K. Just before we put this one to rest... I am looking for a approx 1 year old R1200RT ( and am in the UK) and thought that these had only started production about 18 months ago (early 2005) - can I to assume that the R1200RT are all "hex head" ? I don't want to buy a surging early production run model. Thanks, Nick > Just before we put this one to rest... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Nick No surging on the R1200RT although there is some fuel injection on-off suddenness below 3,500 rpm which smoothes out a bit after about 6,000 miles. Also, the 2005 & 2006 models have the power assisted ABS brakes (similar to the R1150RT) which take some getting used to. Tom K. >>Just before we put this one to rest... >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Tom K. Yes, and I understand that when the ABS malfunction on these newer models (the ones with power assist) you have NO brakes, vs. just having no ABS like on earlier ones. But at least you won't be surging... ;-) Signature-Fred W > Yes, and I understand that when the ABS malfunction on these newer models > (the ones with power assist) you have NO brakes, vs. just having no ABS > like on earlier ones. But at least you won't be surging... ;-) Don't think so, Fred, as mine has sufficient brakes (albeit requiring more lever pressure) even when the engine is off. Similar to a car, only the power assist and/or ABS would be lost. My 2006 model has yet to malfunction or fail to initialize in 11,000 miles. Tom K. >>Yes, and I understand that when the ABS malfunction on these newer models >>(the ones with power assist) you have NO brakes, vs. just having no ABS [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Tom K. Just what I heard. Maybe it was the loss of power assist made it feel like no brakes? Signature-Fred W just don't miss something that will cost you $675+ later. Be sure of what you are checking and all fluids should be done..... >I can check tubes and wires visually but I do not have any diagnostic > equipment. I am due for the Inspection II soon and I don't mind having [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is there a compelling argument for paying $675 for an inspection II on > a 1997 528i with 73,000 miles on it? SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I can check tubes and wires visually but I do not have any diagnostic > equipment. I am due for the Inspection II soon and I don't mind having [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is there a compelling argument for paying $675 for an inspection II on > a 1997 528i with 73,000 miles on it? There are no special tools (diagnostic equipment) needed top perform an Inspection II. In fact the parts that do get checked or replaced should be listed in your owners manual. Or better yet, spring for a good shop manual with a small portion of the savings you'll be incurring. It is quite an extensive list, as you might imagine from the cost, but not something that can't be done at home with the right experience. You'll need some parts and supplies, which you can order up online and save even more. Heck, nobody says that you have to accomplish it all at once. Spread it out over a few weekends if it makes it easier. Just keep track of what you've completed. BTW - Changing your own oil is about the easiest thing on the Inspection II list. No point having someone else do that one either. Signature-Fred W <snipped> > Is there a compelling argument for paying $675 for an inspection II on > a 1997 528i with 73,000 miles on it? A bit off topic, but still: $675 for an inspection II? That is a LOT of money. I drive a E46 3 series that is due for an inspection II in about 4000km, which is going to cost me a bit more than $300 at an official BMW dealer! Is the difference really that big? Best regards, Princess Morgiah |
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