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Car Forum / BMW Cars / November 2006

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petrol in diesel

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Jo Ling - 14 Oct 2006 20:52 GMT
Fellow BMW owners,

This didn't happen to my 525TDS, but it did happen to my Renault Scenic CDi
( a common rail diesel) so I thought I'd ask the experts anyway.

Two weeks ago, I filled up the Scenic, virtually from "empty" (the orange
light had been annoying me), at our local Tesco's.  51 litres of their best
diesel oil, or so I thought.

A little later, on the same day, we all went out for a run in the Scenic.
Stopped it for a few minutes; then it refused to re-start.  In the end, we
got a lift home on the back of a breakdown truck.

Hubby drove the car around for a week, and found that it wouldn't start from
warm, but it would from cold.  Then, 6 days after the first incident, it
conked out entirely.  Our breakdown service took it to a garage in Kingston,
which diagnosed at first (a) burnt-out glow plugs (that didn't fix it) then
(b) broken fuel pump (that sort of fixed it; but read on).

So, £400 lighter, he brought it home on Friday.  I drove it this morning
(Saturday), and found it was kangarooing and spluttering all along the road.

We took it to a Renault dealer, where one of the mechanics sniffed the tank
and said: "that's petrol".   AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGH!!

Now, IF that's the case (and we have yet to get confirmation of the type of
fuel in the tank), do I have any comeback on Tesco's?

I have the following items of proof:

1) A receipt from Tesco's at 10:50 that morning, showing I filled a car up
with 51 litres of diesel.
1a) Proof that I'd filled the BMW up some days earlier, at a different
Tesco's filling station, with 60 litres of diesel.  (NB: 60 won't fit in the
Scenic.  At least, not if you value your shoes.)
2) Proof that we called out First Direct's breakdown service at 4pm that
afternoon;
3) Proof of the mileage of the car at 4pm that day;
4) Proof of the mileage of the car when the place in Kingston returned it;
5) Proof that the above constitutes half a tank of fuel, which is what had
been used in the meantime (ie. that the Kingston garage can't have refilled
it with petrol accidentally)

I rang Tesco's this morning, and they pointed out - not  unreasonably, I
suppose - that if their filling station "diesel" tank had been full of
petrol, they would have already had hundreds of complaints, and mine was in
fact the first query.  However, if my Scenic has found a way of converting
diesel into unleaded, I suppose I'd better call the chancellor, or Harry
Potter, or maybe just pitch up in Dragons' Den.

Any opinions would be welcome.

Jo
Lez Pawl - 14 Oct 2006 21:34 GMT
> Fellow BMW owners,
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> Jo

I don't think the Dragons Den is much good...............you would be
spending 98p a litre and getting 93p back.
Grumps - 14 Oct 2006 22:20 GMT
> Fellow BMW owners,
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> up in Dragons' Den.
> Any opinions would be welcome.

The garage that replaced the fuel pump emptied the tank and replaced with
petrol.
SharkmanBMW! - 15 Oct 2006 01:10 GMT
bingo!

>> Fellow BMW owners,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> The garage that replaced the fuel pump emptied the tank and replaced with
> petrol.

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

agh! - 16 Oct 2006 09:50 GMT
> The garage that replaced the fuel pump emptied the tank and replaced with
petrol.

I recon thats the answer.  There is no way you are driving around for a
week on a tank of unleaded in a diesel, you would get more than a few
miles.  Looks like Tesco's are innocent here.
Lez Pawl - 15 Oct 2006 06:12 GMT
> Fellow BMW owners,
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> Jo

After you left Tesco, did the car emit smoke from the exhaust. A diesel
running petrol will and if it was 100% full of petrol then you would surely
have had this happen at this stage. Even you hubby running around for 6 days
would have noticed this............so would other drivers and the police.

Burnt out glows......... maybe if they did not see any fuel during a period
of difficult starting, they just might have burnt out then but
otherwise............... cant explain
why it should start easier when cold............cant explain.
garage replaced the fuel pump...................normally they will clamp
rubber pipes, if fitted, when doing this so why does he add
fuel.............plus any garage that I know always charge (look at bill or
phone them) even if they add a gallon.............I would have thought if he
was a puka mechanic, when changing the pump would tell diesel from petrol
not only by the smell but when hunting down the spec for the new pump.

Inspector Morse, Frost, Poirot and Dalgalish must be engaged on this
one............no, no ITS gotta be Diesel and Pascoe
Jo Ling - 15 Oct 2006 09:08 GMT
>> Fellow BMW owners,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> Inspector Morse, Frost, Poirot and Dalgalish must be engaged on this
> one............no, no ITS gotta be Diesel and Pascoe
Grrrrrroan
Dave Plowman (News) - 15 Oct 2006 09:39 GMT
> Two weeks ago, I filled up the Scenic, virtually from "empty" (the
> orange light had been annoying me), at our local Tesco's.  51 litres of
> their best diesel oil, or so I thought.

IIRC, a diesel won't run on pure petrol. A mixture of up to about 5/1
where the majority is diesel, yes.

> A little later, on the same day, we all went out for a run in the
> Scenic. Stopped it for a few minutes; then it refused to re-start.  In
> the end, we got a lift home on the back of a breakdown truck.

> Hubby drove the car around for a week, and found that it wouldn't start
> from warm, but it would from cold.  Then, 6 days after the first
> incident, it conked out entirely.  Our breakdown service took it to a
> garage in Kingston, which diagnosed at first (a) burnt-out glow plugs
> (that didn't fix it) then (b) broken fuel pump (that sort of fixed it;
> but read on).

> So, £400 lighter, he brought it home on Friday.  I drove it this morning
> (Saturday), and found it was kangarooing and spluttering all along the
> road.

> We took it to a Renault dealer, where one of the mechanics sniffed the
> tank and said: "that's petrol".   AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGH!!

My first thought is why didn't the first mechanic smell/feel/notice the
petrol when changing the pump? They're very different substances.

Second one is petrol wrecks things like pumps - it doesn't lubricate in
the same way as diesel.

Signature

*42.7% of statistics are made up. Sorry, that should read 47.2% *

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

M Warren - 16 Oct 2006 02:56 GMT
>> Two weeks ago, I filled up the Scenic, virtually from "empty" (the
>> orange light had been annoying me), at our local Tesco's.  51 litres of
>> their best diesel oil, or so I thought.
>
> IIRC, a diesel won't run on pure petrol. A mixture of up to about 5/1
> where the majority is diesel, yes.

True enough.  There would have been all sorts of ungodly and very noticible
consequences to attempting pure petrol in a compression ignition engine.
Pump gas has a problem with 12:1 compression, much more of an issue with say
27 or 30:1.

Matt
Richard Sexton - 16 Oct 2006 06:40 GMT
>>> Two weeks ago, I filled up the Scenic, virtually from "empty" (the
>>> orange light had been annoying me), at our local Tesco's.  51 litres of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Pump gas has a problem with 12:1 compression, much more of an issue with say
>27 or 30:1.

Uh, yeah at that compression it preignites or "diesels". But gas has so little heat
value compared to diesel fuel it has almost no power.

You can run up to half gas half disel but it'll be slow as hell. But this
is what was recommended by Germany in days of yore before we knew
how to keep #2 diesel liquid at (very) cold temperatures.

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  Need Mercedes parts?   http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

R. Mark Clayton - 16 Oct 2006 12:19 GMT
>>>> Two weeks ago, I filled up the Scenic, virtually from "empty" (the
>>>> orange light had been annoying me), at our local Tesco's.  51 litres of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>say
>>27 or 30:1.

If will preignite or "pink", although this early would be very rough indeed.

> Uh, yeah at that compression it preignites or "diesels". But gas has so
> little heat
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> is what was recommended by Germany in days of yore before we knew
> how to keep #2 diesel liquid at (very) cold temperatures.

Not just congealing, but also to counteract reduced 'ignitability' at lower
temperature - the compression will not raise the temperature as high if you
start as -40C as opposed to +20C.

Fortunately for history this technique did not work very well, so the
panzers stayed put while the Siberians outflanked them, the Soviets
apparently also developed diesel that did not congeal first.
Dave Plowman (News) - 16 Oct 2006 13:11 GMT
> Fortunately for history this technique did not work very well, so the
> panzers stayed put while the Siberians outflanked them, the Soviets
> apparently also developed diesel that did not congeal first.

The UK didn't have any diesel vehicles in WW2 - tanks were petrol. Mainly
to need only the one fuel supply in the field. The Germans were forced to
develop diesels for both tanks and some aircraft - as petrol was in
shorter supply for them. Wonder what Soviet tanks ran on?

Signature

*Why is it that rain drops but snow falls?

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

R. Mark Clayton - 16 Oct 2006 16:00 GMT
>> Fortunately for history this technique did not work very well, so the
>> panzers stayed put while the Siberians outflanked them, the Soviets
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> develop diesels for both tanks and some aircraft - as petrol was in
> shorter supply for them. Wonder what Soviet tanks ran on?

T34 on - diesel, but they had already worked out how to stop it turning to
jelly.

The nazis also ran out of juice far from home...
Nick - 16 Oct 2006 20:22 GMT
>>> Fortunately for history this technique did not work very well, so the
>>> panzers stayed put while the Siberians outflanked them, the Soviets
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> The nazis also ran out of juice far from home...

You mean they had DIESEL aircraft ???

Nick
Dave Plowman (News) - 16 Oct 2006 23:25 GMT
> >> The UK didn't have any diesel vehicles in WW2 - tanks were petrol.
> >> Mainly to need only the one fuel supply in the field. The Germans
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> > The nazis also ran out of juice far from home...

> You mean they had DIESEL aircraft ???

Dormer bombers - during the blitz on London they could be distinguished
from any other aircraft around by the noise they made.

Signature

*A snooze button is a poor substitute for no alarm clock at all *

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

XYZ - 04 Nov 2006 23:35 GMT
If you want a bigger income tax refund for 2006, you need to act fast!!
SCAACI is selling bigger income tax refunds right up until 12-30-2006!!
Email treymanda@yahoo.com with "Bigger Tax Refund" as the subject.
>> >> The UK didn't have any diesel vehicles in WW2 - tanks were petrol.
>> >> Mainly to need only the one fuel supply in the field. The Germans
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Dormer bombers - during the blitz on London they could be distinguished
> from any other aircraft around by the noise they made.
Tom K. - 04 Nov 2006 23:58 GMT
> If you want a bigger income tax refund for 2006, you need to act fast!!
> SCAACI is selling bigger income tax refunds right up until 12-30-2006!!
> Email treymanda@yahoo.com with "Bigger Tax Refund" as the subject.
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
(snip)

Somehow, I don't think Dave will be able to take advantage - unless he
neglected to file for his 2002 US federal tax refund!!

Tom K.
 
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