 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / BMW Cars / February 2008[E39] Floaty steering at hwy speeds
Has anyone experienced floaty/twitchy steering on their e39 at highway speeds (say 80 mph)? The best I could describe it is as if you were kept getting hit by crosswinds and had to keep correcting the car's path. It's not very apparent and it's not that the steering wheel gets pulled out of your hands (like when the car is tramlining). Yet, it detracts from the fun of driving as the car feels loose and not particularly stable at higher speeds. Feels more like a boat or an American cruiser. Apparently, BMW's own recommendation is to tweak the alignment specs a little: http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/escape2music/530i/stability1.jpg http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/escape2music/530i/stability2.jpg http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/escape2music/530i/stability3.jpg Has anyone actually tried this suggestion? Did it help? BTW, the symptoms they list (fidgety/floaty/nervous) describes exactly what I'm experiencing. For the record, it's an '02 530i manual with sport pkg, 32K miles, OEM rims and new 235/45/17 Dunlop SP Maxx tires. I had the alignment done when I bought the car 2 months ago - it is now practically in the middle of the recommended alignment range specs. All the suspension/steering components have been looked over with no sign of damage of any kind. Maybe it's just me - maybe I'm expecting too much from this car, but honestly, it doesn't feel as solid on the hwy as a b5 A4 that I used to own before. And it's not the roads either - they're as smooth as can be. If there's anything that you can think of that could correct this twitchy steering, I'm all ears. Someone on another board suggested replacing items 9, 10, 11 in this graph: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/e/c/53.png as well as the entire steering rack. But honestly, without knowing which particular part is causing this behavior, I might end up replacing the entire suspension and steering system before I find the problem. Thanks, Pete > I had the alignment done when I bought the car 2 months ago - it is now > practically in the middle of the recommended alignment range specs. Oh yeah, here's the printout from that last alignment: http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/escape2music/530i/530_ali.jpg Pete Pete;105130 Wrote: > Has anyone experienced floaty/twitchy steering on their e39 at highwa > speeds (say 80 mph)? The best I could describe it is as if you wer [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Thanks > Pet It may well be the same problem I had which was that a rear whee control arm was worn out: One rear wheel had a lot of play in it alignment, requiring me to correct the car's path all the time. This wa with my previous E39 528i. Replacing the control arm cured the problem I now have a similar problem where I need to correct the course of m newer E39 530i more often than expected, but I suspect this time it i due to excessive friction in the steering system (perhaps the steerin column itself). The symptoms include weak self centering of th steering wheel and a dead steering feel, even though wheel alignmen ought to be ok (BMW just examined the car throughly) -- pflodin "pfloding" > It may well be the same problem I had which was that a rear wheel > control arm was worn out: One rear wheel had a lot of play in its > alignment, requiring me to correct the car's path all the time. This was > with my previous E39 528i. Replacing the control arm cured the problem. Which part exactly are you refering to? Is it nr. 14 in this diagram? http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DT53&mospid=47587&btnr=33_0519&hg= 33&fg=30 > I now have a similar problem where I need to correct the course of my > newer E39 530i more often than expected, but I suspect this time it is > due to excessive friction in the steering system (perhaps the steering > column itself). The symptoms include weak self centering of the > steering wheel and a dead steering feel, Hmm... that also sounds familiar, i mean that dead steering feel. So, what are you planning to do about it? More inspections? Blindly replacing of the steering column (what if that's not it?). Just living with it? Pete Pete;337785 Wrote: > "pfloding > > It may well be the same problem I had which was that a rear whee [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 'RealOEM.COM * BMW E39 530i REAR AXLE SUPPORT/WHEEL SUSPENSION > (http://tinyurl.com/2eudez I'm pretty sure it was part 18. It was a very thick aluminium arm. Bu any bad joint could probably cause a similar problem Pete;337785 Wrote: > "pfloding > > I now have a similar problem where I need to correct the course o [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > o > the steering column (what if that's not it?). Just living with it No, I tried lubricating it today. Read up on similar problems wit other BMWs. Not sure how to get access to all bearings though. I jus lubed the U-joint for now, and some areas around it more or less i hope. Access was not good. Unfortunately you can't hire ramp-time her in the UK I suppose the power servo itself could be to blame. At the moment m mother's SAAB 9-5 has more steering feel, and that won't do Patri -- pflodin BTW, Pete If you can jack up the rear wheels (one at a time will do), you ca feel the problem I described as the wheel being able to move in and out Grab it at the bottom with both hands and pull and push I think I restored some feel by lubricating the steering colum U-joint, but I could be dreaming. I just think I can now just about fee the point where both front wheels are planted straight ahead (o following the curve on a cambered road, as it were), and self centerin is a bit more positive. It's still a bit of the case of having to "stee straight" though, so perhaps there is more friction in the system t take care of, or there is some other problem -such as toe-in, or wor joints. The car has only done 50k miles, but is from 2002, so excessiv friction in the steering system seems the most likely explanatio (especially as the steering seems kind of heavy) -- pflodin My car follows the grooves they cut into the concrete. This is normal. > Pete;105130 Wrote: >> Has anyone experienced floaty/twitchy steering on their e39 at highway [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > steering wheel and a dead steering feel, even though wheel alignment > ought to be ok (BMW just examined the car throughly). > My car follows the grooves they cut into the concrete. This is normal. Sure. But in my case the floaty feeling exists even on smooth asphalt with no grooves. Pete >> My car follows the grooves they cut into the concrete. This is normal. > > Sure. But in my case the floaty feeling exists even on smooth asphalt > with no grooves. > > Pete Check all the steering geometry, tyre inflation, wheel alignment, bearings and shock absorbers (or just put it in for an MOT). This should reveal the problem. Also check the badge - you might really be driving a yank car... R. Mark Clayton;337985 Wrote: > > "Jeff Strickland" wrot > >> My car follows the grooves they cut into the concrete. This i [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Also check the badge - you might really be driving a yank car.. I doubt an MOT would find any subtle problems. Not even BMW's own check-ups finds smaller problems that, when they add up, degrad the feel of the drive. I suspect they rather like older cars degradin so their new models seem better than they are. ; -- pflodin > Check all the steering geometry, tyre inflation, wheel alignment, bearings > and shock absorbers (or just put it in for an MOT). No such thing as MOT here in Florida. As a matter of fact, the cars don't have to pass any kind of state inspection at all. But I had the car checked at both the dealer and a BMW indy shop, and neither one could find anything wrong. Well, the dealer found leaking thrust arm bushings, which I replaced. It reduced the floaty feeling a little bit, but it's still not perfect. > Also check the badge - you might really be driving a yank car... It sure feels like driving a Buick sometimes. Pete > > Also check the badge - you might really be driving a yank car... > > It sure feels like driving a Buick sometimes. > > Pete Often on the big heavy cars you can't spot that there's some play in the supension until you've got the parts off. If the car's just wallowy then it's either just because that's the way the bigger cars are, or you need new shocks. I can't see the alignment measurements you have but in general toe-in leads to better straight ahead driving than toe-out which is better for cornering. If there is wear in the system you'll often get dynamic toe-out at speed even if the static figures don't show it. > Often on the big heavy cars you can't spot that there's some play in > the supension until you've got the parts off. If the car's just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > system you'll often get dynamic toe-out at speed even if the static > figures don't show it. Here are my alignment specs: http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/escape2music/530i/530_ali.jpg I can't remember now if the positive toe numbers mean toe-in or toe-out, but in either case, I seem to be within the recommended spec. The only thing that's noticeably out of spec is the right front caster value, but the shop claimed that it was impossible to adjust it. Next time I get new tires, I will probably take it to a BMW dealer for an alignment. As for the shocks, when I first got the car and when I observed this issue, it had 30k miles on the odo. Everyone I talked to said that it could not be the shocks at such low mileage. The roads down here are pretty good (no potholes), so the suspension doesn't typically take a beating. Then again, I am not the first owner so I have no way of knowing how and where the first owner drove during those first 30k miles. Pete > > Often on the big heavy cars you can't spot that there's some play in > > the supension until you've got the parts off. If the car's just [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Pete I'm disallowed access to the photo site from work :-( I was going to mention caster but thought nah it can't be off. It can be adjusted but not necessarily without modifying other parts of the car - it depends how far out it is. Simplest is to elongate the strut top mounting holes. ...or again, it's a sign that something somewhere is so worn that the strut is way out of line. Positive is toe-ing out. I'd suggest setting it to 0 or slightly toe- in and see if it helps. You can do it yourself and if you count the number of turns you can always set it back. > I'm disallowed access to the photo site from work :-( I was going to > mention caster but thought nah it can't be off. It can be adjusted > but not necessarily without modifying other parts of the car - it > depends how far out it is. The specified range for the caster is from 6 to 7 degrees. Mine is at 5.5 degrees on the right and 5.9 degrees on the left. > Simplest is to elongate the strut top > mounting holes. ...or again, it's a sign that something somewhere is > so worn that the strut is way out of line. > Positive is toe-ing out. I'd suggest setting it to 0 or slightly toe- in and see if it helps. The specified range for front toe is from -0.04 deg to +0.13 deg. Mine is at +0.08 deg. The specified range for rear toe is from +0.05 deg to +0.22 deg. Mine is at +0.06 deg. Pete > Positive is toe-ing out. I'd suggest setting it to 0 or slightly toe- in and see if it helps. The funny thing is that BMW TIS actually recommends setting the toe-out (but still within the recommended range) on the front in order to counteract the floatiness at high speed. This BMW TIS recommendation is what started my original thread. Here's its content again: > http://tinyurl.com/2h3ze5 > http://tinyurl.com/yr3uzc > http://tinyurl.com/288pks I did have the shop realign it using these recommendations, however, it made no noticeable difference in handling/stability. Pete Pete;341168 Wrote: > "adder1969" wrot > > Positive is toe-ing out. I'd suggest setting it to 0 or slightl [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Pet Yeah, but for the other case (pulling to one side) they recommend relatively (compared to the toe-out) large toe-in. BTW, I wonder if BM loaded down the car as recommended before alignment, and if not using i with the same total load and distribution affects things. Especially i some suspension component is worn out I assume the rear axle was checked for wear as well Mine is going to my local independent on monday to see what causes th slightly dead, non-centering steering. If he can't find any worn ou parts, I guess it's back to BMW for a 4 wheel alignment. BTW, my car i perfectly stable on the highway, it's just that I got spoiled by anothe car that did a lot more of the steering (following the road) by itsel -and then I started to question where the famous BMW feel was.. -- pflodin > Yeah, but for the other case (pulling to one side) they recommend a > relatively (compared to the toe-out) large toe-in. BTW, I wonder if BMW > loaded down the car as recommended before alignment, and if not using it > with the same total load and distribution affects things. Especially if > some suspension component is worn out. Toe in will help high speed stability but might make the car not feel very responsive. Toe-out will do the opposite. You can have different settings front and back and that'll give the car a different feel depending how you have it. ..but thaving said that, if the specs are close enough to straight on then it sounds like there's something else at play, the castor being out of spec won't help. > Yeah, but for the other case (pulling to one side) they recommend a > relatively (compared to the toe-out) large toe-in. BTW, I wonder if BMW > loaded down the car as recommended before alignment, and if not using it > with the same total load and distribution affects things. Especially if > some suspension component is worn out. The alignment was done by an indy shop, but they did follow the procedures, ie. full tank of gas, loading the car with extra weights, etc. However, it is only me driving the car and I weigh 140 lbs. Probably much less than the weights required in the procedure. After that, I did take it to a BMW dealer and the tech drove it and said "I don't know what you're talking about". So, I have a feeling these cars may just handle like this. But then again, it's hard to believe with BMW being the 'ultimate driving machine' and all. I'm repeating myself here, but my old Audi A4q felt more confident at high speed. > I assume the rear axle was checked for wear as well? Yes. Regards, Pete > > Yeah, but for the other case (pulling to one side) they recommend a > > relatively (compared to the toe-out) large toe-in. BTW, I wonder if BMW [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the 'ultimate driving machine' and all. I'm repeating myself here, but my > old Audi A4q felt more confident at high speed. My '96 130k mile 740 will drive along happily at speeds in excess of 100mph, but it's not quite as planted as the M3 (which isn't as planted as some lesser cars I've driven) You might want to try the E39 or E38 forums (they share the same type of undercarriage). Maybe it's the tyres. Those "Maxx"s are the cheap ones aren't they? > My '96 130k mile 740 will drive along happily at speeds in excess of > 100mph My 2000 740 is the same way... 120 feels like 60. It seems very happy at high speed.  SignatureI told you this was going to happen. > Maybe it's the tyres. Those "Maxx"s are the cheap ones aren't they? The Maxx is the top of the max performance tire in the Dunlop lineup with very good reviews on TireRack. I wouldn't call them cheap. Besides, I observed the same issue on my previous set of tires - the OEM ContiSportContact. Pete Pete;341397 Wrote: > "pfloding" wrot > > Yeah, but for the other case (pulling to one side) they recommend [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Regards > Pet The best thing would be if you could test someone else's car -a ca that that person regards as a normal E39. Here in UK doing this is b-tch due to insurance laws, but the US may be different I'm not sure what speeds you drive at, and the condition of the road there, but my 2002 530i is extremely stable at up to, hrmmm, 90-100 mph Haven't tried much higher. (On the German Autobahn, naturally -- pflodin > The best thing would be if you could test someone else's car -a car > that that person regards as a normal E39. Here in UK doing this is a > b-tch due to insurance laws, but the US may be different. One of these days, I might try to test drive another e39 from the BMW dealer's used car lot, if they let me. > I'm not sure what speeds you drive at, and the condition of the roads > there, but my 2002 530i is extremely stable at up to, hrmmm, 90-100 mph. > Haven't tried much higher. (On the German Autobahn, naturally) I'm talking about speeds of around 90 mph. Roads are smooth. Pete I was specifically thinking about your problem whilst driving the E3 today. I've had E39s now for about 7 years, and I'm so used to them. did notice a sort of fairly high frequency floating or bobbing at aroun the 1 Hz mark. I believe this must be a natural fenomenon due to the E3 subframe design? Not sure other car's use this design to isolate fro road intrusion? (I'd be happy to be corrected. Anyway, I'm used to it, and I don't apply any steering corrections du to it. Perhaps you feel you have to correct the car even though it won' be necessary About my own car, I suddenly noticed that the steering felt lighte than it has done lately, at low speed, as I pulled out from my stree today I could more easily feel the center point of the steering, and i centered a bit more willingly (although not perfectly). I could even le the car self-steer along some roads All this leads me to suspect the power steering. Perhaps some spee sensitive regulation of the level of assist is not working as it should (I'm not even sure if I have that or not on this car. -- pflodin > I was specifically thinking about your problem whilst driving the E39 > today. I've had E39s now for about 7 years, and I'm so used to them. I > did notice a sort of fairly high frequency floating or bobbing at around > the 1 Hz mark. I believe this must be a natural fenomenon due to the E39 > subframe design? Not sure other car's use this design to isolate from > road intrusion? (I'd be happy to be corrected.) Are you sure it was 1 Hz? That would mean 1 oscillation per second. Definitely not "high frequency" and definitely not something a human can hear or even feel. :) > Anyway, I'm used to it, and I don't apply any steering corrections due > to it. Perhaps you feel you have to correct the car even though it won't > be necessary? I don't know. Maybe I am just not used to driving a large car. I mean, if a rental Nissan Sentra can provide me with a more confident straight-on ride behavior, something is not right. Maybe I just need to sell this thing and go back to something smaller. Pete Pete;341556 Wrote: > "pfloding" wrot > > I was specifically thinking about your problem whilst driving the E3 [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Pet No, I'm not sure about the frequency. Could be 0.5 Hz to 2 Hz or so Of course you could feel a 1 Hz oscillation! (And, no, you can't hea it. What happens if you do not correct the steering so often? Does the ca immediately wander off the lane -- pflodin > What happens if you do not correct the steering so often? Does the car > immediately wander off the lane? Yes. Pete > > What happens if you do not correct the steering so often? Does the car > > immediately wander off the lane? > > Yes. > > Pete Is it you with the castor out of spec? If your car's been hit in the past and the chassis is twisted, it's not going to help. > Is it you with the castor out of spec? Yes. > If your car's been hit in the past and the chassis is twisted, it's not going to help. That is my fear. CarCheck did not show any accidents on record, but some time after I bought the car, when I went to a guy that does polishing work, he told me that my front left fender had been repainted. However, I have no way of knowing how extensive the damage was and if the wheel was hit or just the fender. I wonder where I could find a specialized shop that could assess if my subframe is bent. Can the dealer's service dept. make such an assessment? Pete > > Is it you with the castor out of spec? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Pete You'd expect the castor to be out more than it is but you could just measure wheel centre to wheel centre on both sides as a check. I think we've reached a stalemate on this one. You need to drive another car and see if it's different or spend some money on getting the car stripped and inspected. ..or put more than 20psi in the tyres :-) > or put more than 20psi in the tyres :-) I didn't catch that last part. What did you mean by that? I run about 35 psi all around. Pete Pete;342142 Wrote: > "adder1969" wrot > > or put more than 20psi in the tyres :- [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Pet He probably meant a simple fault like the wrong tire pressure can giv a lot of your symptoms. Anyway, shouldn't the rear wheels hav significantly higher pressure compared to the front wheels? And 35 ps sounds high for the front wheels -- pflodin > He probably meant a simple fault like the wrong tire pressure can give > a lot of your symptoms. Anyway, shouldn't the rear wheels have > significantly higher pressure compared to the front wheels? And 35 psi > sounds high for the front wheels. The manual recommends 33 front and 41 rear, but since I don't carry any load (apart from myself), I don't inflate the rear so much. As for the front, I played around with various psi in order the reduce flatspotting (these Dunlops tend to flatspot like crazy), although it didn't really help much. Pete > > or put more than 20psi in the tyres :-) > > I didn't catch that last part. What did you mean by that? I run about 35 > psi all around. > > Pete You need to look at the smiley. Pointless repalcing suspension etc if your tyres are all flat, which I'm sure they're not :-) > Pete;105130 Wrote: > > Has anyone experienced floaty/twitchy steering on their e39 at highway [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > steering wheel and a dead steering feel, even though wheel alignment > ought to be ok (BMW just examined the car throughly). For some reasons, when my Z3 has been delivered, the rear wheels were inverted and the tire sculptures pointing backwards. The car was floating a lot. Where I was driving 130 kph with the old E30, the Z3 was badly handling. I realized the mistake some weeks later, looking at pictures I took of the car ! Large tires have a tendency to tramlining on the ruts, especially on the right lane :-) > For some reasons, when my Z3 has been delivered, the rear wheels were > inverted and the tire sculptures pointing backwards. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Large tires have a tendency to tramlining on the ruts, especially on the > right lane :-) The tramlining of my Z3 was reduced considerably when I replaced the OEM Michelin MXM tires with Conti SportContacts. Tom K. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.