Car Forum / BMW Cars / May 2007
BMW Auto box gear select problem (offset drive gear???) Wierd
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richie - 26 May 2007 01:16 GMT Hi,
I'm about to buy a 3 series BMW (318i SE Auto). This is a second hand model and is a 2002 UK model. (The model just prior to the new angular one).
I know these are generaly very sound cars. My friend has a similar model that I've driven, when I am in neutral (from memory) the gear lever can simply be slipped down directly into drive gear. There is no need to push the stick slightly left then slip it down.
My problem is the car I'm about to buy requires a slight left movement of the gear stick and at the same time a downwards movement in order to go from neutral to drive mode. I don't remember any beemer requiring this motion. Usually BMW are simplicity itself to drive, and anything quirky is strictly not in BMW's book.
So I am concearned that
either:
1. My memory is completely going, and all BMW 3 series auto boxes require this "left slide and downwards shift" motion to select drive. I have simply forgotton that from the previous times I've driven similar models.
Or.
2. The 3 series autobox does not require anything more than a simple shift straight down from neutral to drive in order to select the driver gear. Which means the car I'm about to drive has a damaged auto box?
Please let me know your experience of the gear select on the 3 series auto.
Thanks
Jeff Strickland - 26 May 2007 01:29 GMT My daughter drives a '00 325i (USA version) with an automatic transmission. I used it recently and noticed that if the car is in N, I had to depress the brake pedal to select D again, but if the car was in R, I could move the shift selector to D without doing anything else.
This seems to be a safety interlock item that prevents unintended gear changes in an unattended (by and adult) vehicle that might have a child inside. Never mind the fact that when the driver gets out of the car, it ought to be shut off, there are people <raising hand> that have gotten out of cars with the motor running and a child is sitting in a position to operate the gear selector. The kids in my world do not operate gear selectors, but BMW has no way of knowing about all kids, so they put in an interlock that should keep the kids from selecting gears at a time when there is no vehicle operator present.
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Thanks Dave Plowman (News) - 26 May 2007 02:45 GMT > I know these are generaly very sound cars. My friend has a similar > model that I've driven, when I am in neutral (from memory) the gear > lever can simply be slipped down directly into drive gear. There is no > need to push the stick slightly left then slip it down. No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to knock the lever.
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Jeff Strickland - 26 May 2007 03:03 GMT >> I know these are generaly very sound cars. My friend has a similar >> model that I've driven, when I am in neutral (from memory) the gear [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to knock > the lever. Every auto I've ever driven can be put into D without doing anything beyond yanking the shift lever. The only condition is, the brake must be depressed to get out of P. But, once out of P, the lever moves freely from R to N or D. The lever has to be manipulated again to select 2 or 1, but once either of those are selected, the driver can select D or N by simply moving the lever to the desired location. There are no gates to prevent shifting into D, there are only gates to prevent shifting out of D to a lower gear, or into R or P.
My daughter's '00 3 Series is the first car I encountered that does not follow this rule. There are conditions on this car that must be met to select D.
Dave Plowman (News) - 26 May 2007 09:11 GMT > > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to > > knock the lever.
> Every auto I've ever driven can be put into D without doing anything > beyond yanking the shift lever. Then that's not directly. And this feature of having to press the brake is relatively recent - in the UK at least. My '92 E34 didn't have it - you had to press a button on the shift lever.
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richie - 26 May 2007 10:38 GMT Hi, The safety point about accidentintal drive selection, is a good one.
But, as has been mentioned I thought this safety feature only applied when selecting drive from parking mode, or reverse gear. I am about 90% certain that once in drive you can freely slip the gear shift to neutral and back again into drive, by a simple sraight flick motion witout any fiddly left wiggling. I know this because when at traffic lights (which are on a flat road serface) I always slip the car into neutral and then back.
I also have a MGF tiptronic and that definately allows free linear movment between neutral - drive and back without any fiddling. BMW are about a billion times better than MGF's and pride themselves on BMW simplicity, so I can't imagine them introducing a (slightly more) "complex" gear change solution. Particulary when I look at the auto box and the lettering on the side (PRND+/-) all reads as if it is a 100% linear box. Mercades/ Lexus clearly have a wiggily auto box, so any lateral movement is obvious. My VW Golf auto had an obvious linear style auto box, but had a picture of a foot by the side of the drive gear, indicating the brake pedal has to be applied in order to select it. The BMW 3, does not have this, unless I'm mistaken, so I'm sill a bit confused?
Dave Plowman (News) - 26 May 2007 11:07 GMT > The safety point about accidentintal drive selection, is a good one.
> But, as has been mentioned I thought this safety feature only applied > when selecting drive from parking mode, or reverse gear. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > traffic lights (which are on a flat road serface) I always slip the > car into neutral and then back. Most certainly allow you to select neutral from drive directly. I'm not sure about an interlock from neutral to drive is the car is at speed - it's not something most would normally try. But none I've ever driven allow neutral to drive directly with the car stationary - unless the brakes or parking brake is on. Try it. ;-)
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Dean Dark - 26 May 2007 12:24 GMT >Most certainly allow you to select neutral from drive directly. I'm not >sure about an interlock from neutral to drive is the car is at speed - >it's not something most would normally try. But none I've ever driven >allow neutral to drive directly with the car stationary - unless the >brakes or parking brake is on. Try it. ;-) In the mid-70s, I had a '72 automatic Triumph 2000. The ignition inhibitor switch either got out of adjustment or failed, and I could start the car while it was in drive. I didn't get it fixed, it was very convenient, just turn the key and mash the loud pedal. I loved it.
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Dave Plowman (News) - 26 May 2007 12:50 GMT > >Most certainly allow you to select neutral from drive directly. I'm not > >sure about an interlock from neutral to drive is the car is at speed - > >it's not something most would normally try. But none I've ever driven > >allow neutral to drive directly with the car stationary - unless the > >brakes or parking brake is on. Try it. ;-)
> In the mid-70s, I had a '72 automatic Triumph 2000. The ignition > inhibitor switch either got out of adjustment or failed, and I could > start the car while it was in drive. I didn't get it fixed, it was > very convenient, just turn the key and mash the loud pedal. I loved > it. That's fine until someone else drives the car - straight into the one in front. ISTR the old DAF variomatic belt drive required you start in drive - dodgy considering the appalling brakes.
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adder1969 - 26 May 2007 15:33 GMT > > > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to > > > knock the lever. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > relatively recent - in the UK at least. My '92 E34 didn't have it - you > had to press a button on the shift lever. It's a US nanny state thing. I think some (manual) cars you can't start without the clutch depressed.
Jeff Strickland - 26 May 2007 17:12 GMT >> > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to >> > knock the lever. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Then that's not directly. It is directly. there is no requirement to hold the brake pedal, or move the lever to one side or the other or press a button to get around a lock out.
The car is in P. Press the brake pedal, operate the lever to accompdate the lock out, and select R. Back out of the garage and down the driveway into the street. DIRECTLY shift to D by moving the lever without any lockout devices in the way.
I don't know how much clearer to say that.
My daughter's '00 3 Series is the only automatic transmission that does not operate that way. Having said that, perhaps all BMW atuomatics work the same as my daughter's, but apparently the OP and myself are the only ones that do not know this.
Jim - 26 May 2007 17:31 GMT >>> > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to >>> > knock the lever. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > the same as my daughter's, but apparently the OP and myself are the only > ones that do not know this. All U S automatic transmissions work this way. It is (now) a safety requirement that is mandated by the powers that be. Other countries may have different requirements.
At least that is what they telll us. Exactly how this became a safety requirement and what it protects is rather unclear to me.
Jim
Oscar@nowhere.com - 26 May 2007 22:03 GMT >>>> > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to >>>> > knock the lever. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Jim Probably because not many US drivers know what a stick shift is.
dizzy - 27 May 2007 05:13 GMT >>>>> > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to >>>>> > knock the lever. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >>> >Probably because not many US drivers know what a stick shift is. Enough of your childish trolling.
Plonk!
Oscar@nowhere.com - 27 May 2007 09:08 GMT >>>>>> > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to >>>>>> > knock the lever. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >Plonk! Good morning w.nker - have a nice day!
Dave Plowman (News) - 27 May 2007 00:22 GMT > >> > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to > >> > knock the lever. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > Then that's not directly.
> It is directly. there is no requirement to hold the brake pedal, or move > the lever to one side or the other or press a button to get around a > lock out.
> The car is in P. > Press the brake pedal, operate the lever to accompdate the lock out, and > select R. Back out of the garage and down the driveway into the street. > DIRECTLY shift to D by moving the lever without any lockout devices in the > way.
> I don't know how much clearer to say that. Except that it's from reverse not neutral - not what was asked.
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Jeff Strickland - 27 May 2007 15:59 GMT >> >> > No auto I've ever driven can be put directly in drive - too easy to >> >> > knock the lever. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Except that it's from reverse not neutral - not what was asked. Once again, your reading comprehension has failed you.
Dave Plowman (News) - 27 May 2007 16:50 GMT > > Except that it's from reverse not neutral - not what was asked.
> Once again, your reading comprehension has failed you. No - once again you're nitpicking.
Transmission selectors have to be designed to prevent idiots killing themselves, others, or simply wrecking it.
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Jeff Strickland - 27 May 2007 18:14 GMT >> > Except that it's from reverse not neutral - not what was asked. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Transmission selectors have to be designed to prevent idiots killing > themselves, others, or simply wrecking it. Once again, YOUR reading comprehension skills have failed you.
Read my first post (HINT: I was the first to reply to the OP), I said that BMW is accomodating errant shifts by locking out the selection of D.
Read my first post to you (HINT: I was the first to reply to your first reply to the OP), I said that no other car I've encountered has this sort of lock out.
I've got more general automotive experience than most, my father was the General Manager of a new car dealership, and he owned a used car dealership after that. I've been in literally thousands of makes and models of cars and trucks. Admittedly, the vast majority of them American cars and trucks, and American car companies tend to all do the same thing most of the time. But, in my experience, I've driven every major brand of automobile in the world, with very few exceptions.
In every case, the selection of D is a straight shot after the gear selector is taken out of P. My daughter's '00 3 Series is the first car I've encountered where this is not always true. If the car is placed into D, then placed into N or R (I forget which, and don't really care), the operator will encounter a lock out that demands depressing the brake pedal or operating the lock out button, or both (again, I don't know or care) to select D again.
Automatic transmissions around the globe have gates that the selector must be moved through to change gears. The gates can be in the form of a button on the shift lever that the operator must depress, or slots on the shift rail that the lever must be aligned with, or tabs that are cleared by pulling up (toward the steering wheel) in order to be cleared. The first two are found on floor-shift models, the third is found on column-shift models.
The gates are always as such P-- the gate is encountered to shift into and out of P. Aditionally, since about 1990 (give or take), the vehicle operator must also depress the brake pedal in order to shift out of P.
R -- the gate is encountered to shift into R from N. There is no gate to shift out of R to N. It pains me to state that there is a gate to shift into R from P because that gate is really to shift out of P.
N -- There is no gate to bar selection of N from any direction.
D -- There is no gate to bar selection of D from any direction, but there is a gate that bars selection of 2 and 1. The operator can shift from D to N at any time, but will encounter a gate to select any gear below D if there are any. (See NOTE below)
2 -- There is a gate that bars selection of this gear and the gear below it if there is one, but no gate to control the selection of D. The operator can move from 2 to D by simply moving the gear selector. If there is a physical gate that the selector must be laterally aligned with to get into 2, the selector will be spring loaded in such a manner to cause the selector to return laterally to the D gate without the operator making a conscious effort.
1 -- There is a gate that bars selection of 1, but does not impede the selection of 2.
The gate that bars movement out of P is for safety reasons. It prevents the vehicle from being put into motion inadvertantly. The relatively recent addition of the Brake Pedal switch to the P gates/lock out is a further attempt to make automatic transmission equipped cars and trucks safer.
The gate that bars selection of P from another gear selection is intended to protect the transmission. Inadvertant movement of the shift lever from a position that allows vehicle movement into P can destroy the transmission.
The gates that bar inadvertant selection of R, or the 2 and 1 gears is also are an attempt at fail safe -- if the selector is moved to these positions at an inappropriate time, serious damage to the engine or transmission can result. Albeit, recent improvements in automatic transmission controllers might preclude damage by selecting a low range gear at high speeds, the gates remain. The vehicle operator has to make a decision to select these gears. The decision may or may not be appropriate at the time, but it has to be made.
NOTE: Very recently, it seems that some car makers have added a Brake Pedal switch to prevent some selections of D. If there is such a switch, it will be for safety reasons -- the car will be prevented from being put into motion inadvertantly. If there is any prevention of placing the shift selector into D from N, it must be inoperative if the vehicle is already in motion.
Dave Plowman (News) - 27 May 2007 18:21 GMT > Read my first post (HINT: I was the first to reply to the OP), I said > that BMW is accomodating errant shifts by locking out the selection of > D.
> Read my first post to you (HINT: I was the first to reply to your first > reply to the OP), I said that no other car I've encountered has this > sort of lock out. Sigh. And said every auto I've had since the '60s doesn't allow direct selection of drive from neutral simply by moving the lever. Whether by having a brake interlock on as later cars or by requiring a button etc to be pressed.
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Floyd Rogers - 27 May 2007 19:00 GMT > "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote Sigh. You guys just can't get along, can you.
> N -- There is no gate to bar selection of N from any direction. This is actually a safety feature - in case the throttle gets stuck, for instance.
FloydR
Jeff Strickland - 27 May 2007 19:46 GMT >> "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This is actually a safety feature - in case the throttle gets stuck, for > instance. I'm good with that. I would not have thunk it, but I have no reason to not accept it.
Oscar@nowhere.com - 27 May 2007 21:39 GMT >>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I'm good with that. I would not have thunk it, but I have no reason to not >accept it. When was the last time you drove a car and the throttle stuck wide open?
In 45 years of driving, racing and being involved with cars and bikes I have never had a throttle stick open on me - Stirling Moss allegedly had his massive accident due to that as did Sir Jacky Stewart but both instances were assumptions and Stirling cannot remember the accident.
I dare say it has happened but the chances are rare. It's more likely you would hit a tree, lamp post or some other roadside furniture before your throttle stuck open.
However, I bet it's been used as an excuse to insurance companies when the driver was drunk or under the influence of drugs or being given a blow job by his girlfriend (boyfriend?)
Dean Dark - 27 May 2007 22:37 GMT >When was the last time you drove a car and the throttle stuck wide open? In 1969, I think. It was a 2 or 3 year old Morris Oxford, and the return spring on the accelerator pedal broke and the pedal fell to the floor, uncontrollably unleashing all of the awesome power of the car.
I jury rigged a return spring from some rubber bands looped around the pedal and hooked onto somewhere under the dash which got me home fine and worked for a few days until I got around to fixing it.
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Fred W - 28 May 2007 02:25 GMT >>When was the last time you drove a car and the throttle stuck wide open? > > In 1969, I think. It was a 2 or 3 year old Morris Oxford, and the > return spring on the accelerator pedal broke and the pedal fell to the > floor, uncontrollably unleashing all of the awesome power of the car. See, those UK cars are far superior to that American automotive trash.
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Oscar@nowhere.com - 28 May 2007 09:25 GMT >>When was the last time you drove a car and the throttle stuck wide open? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >pedal and hooked onto somewhere under the dash which got me home fine >and worked for a few days until I got around to fixing it. As I said Dan, 40+ years ago and boy Oh boy all that POWER going to the sophisticated RWD system. Single line drum brakes and lever-arm shocks.
I can remember racing one of these down the M1 - bow was he pissed when we passed him at 68MPH he was flat out using all the 42BHP that the single SU could muster - running on pump gas. Fantastic........... they rusted away at the same speed didn't they?
Dave Plowman (News) - 28 May 2007 10:00 GMT > >In 1969, I think. It was a 2 or 3 year old Morris Oxford, and the > >return spring on the accelerator pedal broke and the pedal fell to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >pedal and hooked onto somewhere under the dash which got me home fine > >and worked for a few days until I got around to fixing it.
> As I said Dan, 40+ years ago and boy Oh boy all that POWER going to the > sophisticated RWD system. Single line drum brakes and lever-arm shocks.
> I can remember racing one of these down the M1 - bow was he pissed when > we passed him at 68MPH he was flat out using all the 42BHP that the > single SU could muster - running on pump gas. Fantastic........... they > rusted away at the same speed didn't they? A late '60s Oxford had a power output of 60 bhp and a top speed of over 80 mph. Which it would happily run at all day.
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Oscar@nowhere.com - 28 May 2007 11:17 GMT >> >In 1969, I think. It was a 2 or 3 year old Morris Oxford, and the >> >return spring on the accelerator pedal broke and the pedal fell to the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >A late '60s Oxford had a power output of 60 bhp and a top speed of over 80 >mph. Which it would happily run at all day. Joke Dave! ;>))
Dave Plowman (News) - 28 May 2007 00:50 GMT > When was the last time you drove a car and the throttle stuck wide open? Only once - and on an E-type Jag. The throttle linkage has a bell crank which went over centre. It was (obviously) incorrectly adjusted and the owner had never used full throttle since new.
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Fred W - 28 May 2007 02:27 GMT >>When was the last time you drove a car and the throttle stuck wide open? > > Only once - and on an E-type Jag. The throttle linkage has a bell crank > which went over centre. It was (obviously) incorrectly adjusted and the > owner had never used full throttle since new. Hmmm... where were those Jaguars made again? Were those made in America or was it the UK?
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Dave Plowman (News) - 28 May 2007 02:31 GMT > > Only once - and on an E-type Jag. The throttle linkage has a bell crank > > which went over centre. It was (obviously) incorrectly adjusted and the > > owner had never used full throttle since new.
> Hmmm... where were those Jaguars made again? Were those made in > America or was it the UK? Oi. I don't go around slagging off American cars. Even although most are as ugly as sin. ;-)
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Oscar@nowhere.com - 28 May 2007 09:36 GMT >> > Only once - and on an E-type Jag. The throttle linkage has a bell crank >> > which went over centre. It was (obviously) incorrectly adjusted and the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Oi. I don't go around slagging off American cars. Even although most are >as ugly as sin. ;-) The US muscle cars were fantastic design and even now are in great demand but I see most are being retro fitted with decent suspension and 4 wheel disc brakes and rack&pinion steering.
I loved the Boss Mustang, Dodge Challenger & Charger - the Chrysler 'Cuda etc. and the new versions will be something .
Oscar@nowhere.com - 28 May 2007 09:27 GMT >>>When was the last time you drove a car and the throttle stuck wide open? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Hmmm... where were those Jaguars made again? Were those made in >America or was it the UK? The way they were built probably in someone's back yard - thrown together and serviced - never - but often bodged by one's neighbour.
Oscar@nowhere.com - 27 May 2007 21:32 GMT >> "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >FloydR One could turn off the ignition but not engage the steering lock
Oscar@nowhere.com - 27 May 2007 21:31 GMT >>> > Except that it's from reverse not neutral - not what was asked. >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >in my experience, I've driven every major brand of automobile in the world, >with very few exceptions. So have I and I find that 99% of US built cars to be totally retro engineered with the exception of foreign owned companies or with design bases in other parts of the world.
Until the US makers found that UK cars actually went round corners and stopped they never entertained the notion of disc brakes even after being proved to be far superior on aircraft.
Drum brakes came as standard on the 440 and 426 Dodge/Chryslers until they used the Mitsubishi Colt based rubbish in the mid 70s.
Aluminium brake cylinders and other parts were not fitted until late 70s on many US cars.
>In every case, the selection of D is a straight shot after the gear selector >is taken out of P. My daughter's '00 3 Series is the first car I've [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >operating the lock out button, or both (again, I don't know or care) to >select D again. The OP was talking about sideways movement hampering engagement of D or whatever.
I see you are now mentioning the "INTERLOCK" to stop shifting into P from D or from N to P inadvertently.
With this I agree it can be a PITA but I modified my shifter on a few motors to have a forward shift from 2 > 3 > D lock N lock P so I could shift manually without blowing the engine by accidentally shifting to N.
>Automatic transmissions around the globe have gates that the selector must >be moved through to change gears. The gates can be in the form of a button [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >about 1990 (give or take), the vehicle operator must also depress the brake >pedal in order to shift out of P. Rubbish - My 2000 Sebring convertible and 2000 Camaro did not have this "foot on the brake to shift into D"
>R -- the gate is encountered to shift into R from N. There is no gate to >shift out of R to N. It pains me to state that there is a gate to shift into >R from P because that gate is really to shift out of P. > >N -- There is no gate to bar selection of N from any direction. Agree - except for the new ZF/BMW 6 speed autos - all electronic and impossible to get N without the engine running and the parking brake off. There must be a way but it's not in the hand book so when it needs a tow they'll have to use a rear end lift.
>D -- There is no gate to bar selection of D from any direction, but there is >a gate that bars selection of 2 and 1. The operator can shift from D to N at [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >inadvertantly. If there is any prevention of placing the shift selector into >D from N, it must be inoperative if the vehicle is already in motion. Oscar@nowhere.com - 26 May 2007 08:51 GMT >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >Thanks Well this is a new one on me ......... I have driven several auto BMWs and each - depending on box, year and market (only driven 5s in the US) I can stat that my '96 740i's lever - we are only talking about the mechanical interconnection here as the 'box has nothing that will affect the lever motion - I must depress the lever button to shift into P R and anything else other than D & N. The movement is linear. Sport mode is via a slide switch next to the position indicator.
I believe that some shifter mechanisms do need a sideways push to engage or rather allow the lever to clear the 'gate' as some do not have the button interlock. Jaguar is one that had a separate gate for sport mode as did Mercedes at one time.
My New E65 has a fully electronic system that requires a foot on the brake pedal before one can do anything other than listen to the radio, CD,DVD or watch TV.
To start the engine depress the brake and press START. To shift into Forward/Reverse depress brake and move column lever 10mm up and you engage R 10mm down and you select F or drive! Press the end with the foot on the brake and you get P.
Some earlier models could have similar programming in the 'box CPU for the reason stated previously. I would check this out with a BMW Stealer first but I would assume that if everything else checks out the selector is probably Ok too --- What does the handbook say about it?? First place to look I would think.
Jim - 27 May 2007 00:52 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Thanks My 2003 E46 does not require any sidewise motion to go from N to D. In the D position, one can move it sidewise to engage the Sport position. Here you can determine where the shift points are. If you really want to do that, it would be cheaper to buy a manual transmission car.
At the very least, I would be suspicious that something is wrong in the shift mechanism. Jim
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