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Car Forum / BMW Cars / August 2007Top ten all american sports cars
Top ten all american sports cars http://mailone.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-all-american-sports-cars.html > Top ten all american sports cars Heh.... you managed to find ten ?  SignatureCheerz - Brownz http://www.brownz.org/ >> Top ten all american sports cars > > Heh.... you managed to find ten ? The list must have the Corvette repeated 10 times. All others are merely wannabees. Jim > Top ten all american sports cars > http://mailone.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-all-american-sports-cars.html An oxymoron surely: - Mustang - heavy and ponderous Cobra - fine in a line, but mind the bends Corvair - "unsafe at any speed" (Nader) Pontiac (Grand Am) - probably the worst drive I have ever experienced etc. Compare these with their contemporary Jag's, BMW, Merc' or Ferrari. Indeed are there any decent American [designed] sports cars made even now? >An oxymoron surely: - > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Indeed are there any decent American [designed] sports cars made even now? Ummm, duh -- ever heard of the Corvette? It's too heavy for my taste, but it cleans up in many comparisons, particularly those considering price. Corvairs -- especially John Fitch versions -- were a blast. I owned three, during my mostly Alfa period. The Grand Am was not even close to a sports car, but the Fiero was. Unfortunately, by the time Pontiac got it right -- the 1988 Fiero GT -- they had already killed it in the market. And then there's the current WCM Ultralite, which is simply terrific (think Caterham with the S2000 drivetrain...) -- Larry >> Top ten all american sports cars >> http://mailone.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-all-american-sports-cars.html > > An oxymoron surely: - A counterpoint > Mustang - heavy and ponderous Pretty nice car with the Shelby touch. The later "performance" variations (428, Boss 429) were pigs. > Cobra - fine in a line, but mind the bends The 1965 GT World Championship notwithstanding. > Corvair - "unsafe at any speed" (Nader) Nader wasn't an engineer, he didn't even have a driver's license. Prior to 1964, the swing axle caused oversteer at the limit. It still handled better than many of its contemporaries (As Sterling Moss would testify in several court cases that Nader's lack of automotive knowledge inspired). After 1965, it had a superb independent suspension and handled marvelously. > Pontiac (Grand Am) - probably the worst drive I have ever experienced > etc. True. True. > Compare these with their contemporary Jag's, BMW, Merc' or Ferrari. Mercedes abandoned the sports car market after the end of 300SL production, 1961. Jags? Delightful cars for your mechanic. BMW made a nice GT in the 2800/3.0Cs. Ferrari? Wonderful cars, but who could afford them? And of course, there's that pesky problem in 1965. You forgot Porsche which made a pretty nice, somewhat underpowered GT in the era. The 911, which first hit the showrooms in 1964, would begin to change that. > Indeed are there any decent American [designed] sports cars made even now? Corvette may have a cheesy interior, but the vehicle dynamics are impressive in ANY company. (They've got the Lemans wins to prove it). The Viper, while crude, goes like stink, turns and stops with the best. Considering we're a country that embraced cars like the 1958 Caddy then and 3 ton SUV's now, that's not too bad. R / John >>> Top ten all american sports cars >>> http://mailone.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-all-american-sports-cars.html [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to 1964, the swing axle caused oversteer at the limit. It still handled > better than many of its contemporaries Given that contemporary American saloons didn't even have independent front suspesion and suffered 'shimmy' as a result, this is not much of a complement, > (As Sterling Moss would testify in several court cases that Nader's lack > of automotive knowledge inspired). After 1965, it had a superb > independent suspension and handled marvelously. Until it let go... then you were in trouble or dead. >> Pontiac (Grand Am) - probably the worst drive I have ever experienced >> etc. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The 911, which first hit the showrooms in 1964, would begin to change > that. I must be missing something here. Sure there were plenty of rubbish MGB and Triumph ragtops, but BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Porsche and even Audi have all had mass market drop head coupe sports cars on the market during most of the last 40 years. Some of them might be a bit big, soft, thirsty or mechanically complex (e.g. XJS V12), but for the main part they have decent performance and handle well. It was perhaps not appropriate to include over priced hand built exotica like Ferrari and Aston Martin, but they do go to show what a gulf there is between EU and US cars. Hell even Japan makes better sports cars than the US, although usually you can only get in them if you are well below average height (a fault shared by the Pontiac Fiero / Firbird mentioned elsewhere in this thread) so I don't know what they drive like. >> Indeed are there any decent American [designed] sports cars made even >> now? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Considering we're a country that embraced cars like the 1958 Caddy then > and 3 ton SUV's now, that's not too bad. Short list init, probably doesn't even reach ten. Even the top ten all american cars would be a hard list to fill... > R / John >> (As Sterling Moss would testify in several court cases that Nader's lack >> of automotive knowledge inspired). After 1965, it had a superb >> independent suspension and handled marvelously. > >Until it let go... then you were in trouble or dead. "Let go"? You mean like in a Porsche, or any other rear-engined car? >.... Hell even Japan makes better sports cars than the >US... Hmmm -- I haven't seen a Japanese sports car since the Datsun 1600 roadster. Of course, by my rules, in order to be a sports car, the top must go down (or off). >...although usually you can only get in them if you are well below average >height (a fault shared by the Pontiac Fiero / Firbird mentioned elsewhere in >this thread)... Well, I'm the one who mentioned the Fiero GT, and I'm 6'3"+, and was quite comfortable in it. But then I'm also comfortable in my Miata. -- Larry (driving sports cars continuously since 1963...) >>> (As Sterling Moss would testify in several court cases that Nader's lack >>> of automotive knowledge inspired). After 1965, it had a superb [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >"Let go"? You mean like in a Porsche, or any other rear-engined car? And only if you're daft enough to snap off the throttle instead of feathering it, to boot. Most mid-engined cars also behave the same way. Ask me how I know. Fact is, it's only the clueless yahoos who make statements like "Until it lets go..." *It* doesn't let go, *you* let it go. It was *your* fault, not the car's. SignatureDan. > On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 13:58:11 +0100, "R. Mark Clayton" >>.... Hell even Japan makes better sports cars than the >>US... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Well, I'm the one who mentioned the Fiero GT, and I'm 6'3"+, and was quite > comfortable in it. But then I'm also comfortable in my Miata. So what, your Miata isn't a sports car? How about the RX-7? Or did you forget that Mazda is a Japanese car company? For current models, in addition to the Miata, I think the Honda S2000 has to qualify as does the Nissan Z roadster. Signature-Fred W >> On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 13:58:11 +0100, "R. Mark Clayton" > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >So what, your Miata isn't a sports car? How about the RX-7? Or did you >forget that Mazda is a Japanese car company? Are you sure? I thought it was 51% Ford. >For current models, in addition to the Miata, I think the Honda S2000 >has to qualify as does the Nissan Z roadster. >So what, your Miata isn't a sports car? How about the RX-7? Or did you >forget that Mazda is a Japanese car company? Yes, actually, despite owning the Miata. That's what old age does for you. Besides, it drives like an updated British (TR/MG) or Italian (Fiat 124S) sportscar. The RX-7 never met my droptop requirements. -- Larry >>So what, your Miata isn't a sports car? How about the RX-7? Or did you >>forget that Mazda is a Japanese car company? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -- Larry I had an '88 RX-7 convertible. It was a sportscar in every way. Signature-Fred W >>>> Top ten all american sports cars >>>> http://mailone.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-all-american-sports-cars.html [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > front suspesion and suffered 'shimmy' as a result, this is not much of a > complement, IFS was pretty much standard by the early fifties. Perhaps you're thinking of IRS, which was slow in coming. >> (As Sterling Moss would testify in several court cases that Nader's lack >> of automotive knowledge inspired). After 1965, it had a superb >> independent suspension and handled marvelously. > > Until it let go... then you were in trouble or dead. As you would be in a Merc 300SL or Porsche 356. I'm sure there's an advantage to going off the cliff forwards versus backwards, but it escapes me. The 65-69 Corvair suspension was quite sophisticated and minimized the car's inherent oversteer quite nicely. Porsche wouldn't get it right for a number of years 911 production. >>> Pontiac (Grand Am) - probably the worst drive I have ever experienced >>> etc. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > mechanically complex (e.g. XJS V12), but for the main part they have > decent performance and handle well. BMW' s lovely pre-war dropheads were limited production. The 507 was expensive and disappointing. They didn't get back into the business until the 90's with the Z-series. Jaguar? Wonderful cars in many respects. The E-jag of the late sixties was a beautiful machine hampered by the most unreliable subsystems in the industry ... and my quite crude and contemporary C-3 Corvette could blow its doors off on the straights and in the twisties. Mercedes makes a boulevard cruiser with sports car pretentions, albeit AMG can up the ante considerably. Porsche? No argument there. Bring your checkbook. Audi? Sports sedans in abundance and some are quite good. Sports cars? Precious few. > It was perhaps not appropriate to include over priced hand built exotica > like Ferrari and Aston Martin, but they do go to show what a gulf there is > between EU and US cars. Hell even Japan makes better sports cars than the > US, although usually you can only get in them if you are well below > average height (a fault shared by the Pontiac Fiero / Firbird mentioned > elsewhere in this thread) so I don't know what they drive like. That gulf best represented by the performance of Corvette versus Aston and Ferrari in GT1 in recent years. Procar made a pretty decent run with the 550 and Aston has benefitted from regulations (intake restrictions) to be almost competitive. The box score favors Corvette. >>> Indeed are there any decent American [designed] sports cars made even >>> now? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Short list init, probably doesn't even reach ten. Even the top ten all > american cars would be a hard list to fill... Antique era - Mercer, Stutz, Stanley Classic era - Duesenberg, Cord, Packard, Pierce, Auburn, Cadillac (no sports cars, although the Duesie was faster than all but a handful of exotic European sports cars and all Euro luxury cars ... OBTW, its forerunner won Lemans against all takers in 1921) Postwar - Covette, Cunningham, Cobra (based on AC chassis ... loosely), Shelby Mustang, Viper. Just out of curiosity, how many of the cars you prize (or despise) have you actually driven? R / John >As you would be in a Merc 300SL or Porsche 356. I'm sure there's an >advantage to going off the cliff forwards versus backwards, but it escapes >me. As a Skip Barber instructor once told me: "Understeer is when you go through the fence forwards. Oversteer is when you go through the fence backwards. Balanced is when you go through the fence sideways and juuuuust right..." SignatureDan. >> Given that contemporary American saloons didn't even have independent >> front suspesion and suffered 'shimmy' as a result, this is not much of a >> complement, >> > IFS was pretty much standard by the early fifties. Perhaps you're > thinking of IRS, which was slow in coming. Was it as early as that? >>> (As Sterling Moss would testify in several court cases that Nader's lack >>> of automotive knowledge inspired). After 1965, it had a superb [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the car's inherent oversteer quite nicely. Porsche wouldn't get it right > for a number of years 911 production. As indicated EU manufacturers did produce a few dogs of their own, but Porsche also made the excellent 928. In any event if you unstick, you may be able to get it back in a front engine / rear drive car (I have, but would recommend not having to do so), whereas if the car is going backwards your chances of recovery are negligible. > Just out of curiosity, how many of the cars you prize (or despise) have > you actually driven? Not driven that many US cars, as they are rare over here and almost invariably LHD. Another factor is that expensive performance car owners are not always that keen to let you have a go... Mostly I have owned and driven (and liked) BMW's. I am very tall and don't fit in a lot of sports cars. Owned and liked BMW 740i, 735i (4 off including two manuals) Rover 35000 SD1 (2 off 1981-85) Triumph 2.5TC (1979 - 81) now a classic Driven and liked Bently GT BMW 750i BMW 728i (bit slow) BMW M535i BMW 540i BMW 525e BMW 320i Mercedes S350 Mercedes 500SE Mercedes 320CE24V Porsche 928 (only practical for me without a sun roof) Daimler Sovereign V8 Vauxhall Lotus Carlton Vauxhall Senator 3.0i 24V (just makes it) Driven indifferent Bentley Azure Citroen XM BMW X5 BMW 316i (slow) Mercedes E Class (90's) Vauxhall Carlton, Cavalier, Astra (late), Corsa Audi A4 VW Golf GTi Minis Saab 9000 Driven disliked Wolsey Six (owned 1978) Citroen CX, BX Jaguar XJ12 (too cramped) Jaguar XJR (too cramped) Merc A series (on test track) Rover 827 Ford Capri, Cortina, Sierra, Escort Renault 19, 30 Peugot 305, 205, 105 MGB Roadster VW Golf, Polo Various BL cars - worst was Marina Land Rover Freelander Lexus Vauxhall Astra (early), Nova Buick Park Avenue Pontiac Grand Am Been in and suspect I would like Aston Martin Lambourghini > R / John >>> Given that contemporary American saloons didn't even have independent >>> front suspesion and suffered 'shimmy' as a result, this is not much of a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Was it as early as that? GM introduced what they called "Knee Action" for IFS in the 30s. I believe that Chrysler moved to IFS in the 30s. Ford introduced IFS with the 1949 model year cars. Studebaker still had a car with the buggy spring design in the 50s. Jim >>>> (As Sterling Moss would testify in several court cases that Nader's >>>> lack of automotive knowledge inspired). After 1965, it had a superb [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > >> R / John >As indicated EU manufacturers did produce a few dogs of their own, but >Porsche also made the excellent 928. ...which was even more of a whale than a Corvette. Definitely not a sports car, but a GT. -- Larry >>As indicated EU manufacturers did produce a few dogs of their own, but >>Porsche also made the excellent 928. > > ...which was even more of a whale than a Corvette. Definitely not a sports > car, > but a GT. Try and catch one. The subject had broadened slightly to all American cars. > -- Larry >>>As indicated EU manufacturers did produce a few dogs of their own, but >>>Porsche also made the excellent 928. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Try and catch one. Immaterial. Nothing says sports cars are faster in a straight line than GT cars -- in fact, it's likely to be the other way round. In any event, my 1600 cc Ford will tear any 928 a new a.shole on any autocross course, or any very tight race track. Now a 914/6, *there's* a sports car. -- Larry >>> Given that contemporary American saloons didn't even have independent >>> front suspesion and suffered 'shimmy' as a result, this is not much of a [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > Aston Martin > Lambourghini An impressive list that doesn't contain one of the cars you disparage. R / John >> Driven disliked >> >> Pontiac Grand Am > An impressive list that doesn't contain one of the cars you disparage. Apart from the Pontiac*. I have driven [at least] one rear engined rear drive car - Hillman Imp - which I forgot to put in the dislike list (several others no doubt). I haven't driven the current BMW 6 series, although I have been in one and read reviews enough to know that it is likely to be an excellent drive. Conversely tales of wheel tuck under, steering column intrusion and carbon monoxide leaks into the cabin would be enough to put me totally off the Corvair, even if there were many survivors left to drive, especially in the UK. Few US cars are sold in the UK. Recent examples include the Chrysler Neon (slated in the motoring press) and PT Cruiser, which when I rode in one was awful. > R / John Now how about a list of the top ten American [sports] cars? OTOH a list of the top ten [sports] cars in America, probably would not contain any home grown produce - now would it? * despite a 3l injected engine the performance was anaemic, delivered through a dire three speed auto box. The handling was poor, but the feel was non existent so you had to open the windows and listen for tyre squeal to know what was happening. A [large] 2 door coupe, space was wasted and there was no room for rear seat passengers. Visibility was reduced by a large rear pillar. This was a rated US car, goodness only knows what the regular ones must be like! It certainly confirmed all the stereotypes about how bad American cars are and why. True I had just got my first 735i at the time, but really there was just no comparison, even contemporary Sierras and Cavaliers were far far better. > Few US cars are sold in the UK. Recent examples include the Chrysler Neon > (slated in the motoring press) and PT Cruiser, which when I rode in one > was awful. What!? You haven't driven a Chrysler Minivan? Surely they are the prime exemplar of fine American cars. ;-> FloydR >>> Driven disliked >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > (slated in the motoring press) and PT Cruiser, which when I rode in one > was awful. The Grand Am hardly qualifies as a sports car or even sports sedan. A sporting name (Pontiac was/is notorious for them) does not a sporting vehicle make. PT Cruiser. A joke on both sides of the pond. >> R / John > > Now how about a list of the top ten American [sports] cars? > > OTOH a list of the top ten [sports] cars in America, probably would not > contain any home grown produce - now would it? Actually, the Corvette ranks pretty high in most anybody's list. I agree that my taste doesn't run much to the current trend in US vehicles. There are few cars ANYWHERE I'd trade for my E39. > * despite a 3l injected engine the performance was anaemic, delivered > through a dire three speed auto box. The handling was poor, but the feel [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 735i at the time, but really there was just no comparison, even > contemporary Sierras and Cavaliers were far far better. Are you sure you're not confusing the Grand Am with the Trans Am? Quite a different beast, albeit still rather wasteful of space. Pretty decent performance with 350HP and approx 165MPH top end. Handling fair to middling. On topic, British cars haven't fared all that well in recent years either. While Jaguar is resurgent with (finally) reliable machinery, it generally falls short in comparison to its immediate competition. Similarly the (drop dead gorgeous) Astons come in near last place in their exclusive range. Even the Roller is getting to be a characterture of itself vice a world class luxury hauler. Breath of fresh air goes to Bentley. They seem to have captured the essence of the original marque in 21st century form. R / John > The Grand Am hardly qualifies as a sports car or even sports sedan. A > sporting name (Pontiac was/is notorious for them) does not a sporting > vehicle make. PT Cruiser. A joke on both sides of the pond. Agree. >>> R / John >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > performance with 350HP and approx 165MPH top end. Handling fair to > middling. No even then I could easily tell the difference. > On topic, British cars haven't fared all that well in recent years either. > While Jaguar is resurgent with (finally) reliable machinery, it generally [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > R / John British [Sports] Cars TVR - noisy, maker went bust compromising spares availability. MG - slow and as above Morgan - half a century out of date AM - gorgeous, but too expensive. Jag - now much sorted RR - retro features like suicide doors - not a serious option Bentley - the original cars have grunt, but are barge like. The new Audi based (and partly made) GT and derivatives are actually quite good. Mini [Cooper] - made by BMW So it is the Germans who win out on the decent cars front, certainly these days... >Mini [Cooper] - made by BMW ...in the US. 8;) -- Larry > On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 12:28:46 +0100, "R. Mark Clayton" wrote: > >>Mini [Cooper] - made by BMW > > ...in the US. 8;) The Mini is made in the UK in Oxford; none are built in the US. FloydR >> On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 12:28:46 +0100, "R. Mark Clayton" wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > FloydR If the criteria is US assembled (even if with a minority of US parts), then what about the Z4? Tom K. >>> On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 12:28:46 +0100, "R. Mark Clayton" wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Tom K. Cars with British design and heritage, German engineering and assembled by Mexicans from imported parts hardly qualify as US made, although they are partly American in a geographic sense ;-) Take the Manhattan Project - apart from General Groves, how many of the top people on the project were US citizens ten years before it started? > "Tom K." <tkorth1@spamspamcomcast.net> wrote >>> "pltrgyst" <pltrgyst@spamlessxhost.org> wrote > Cars with British design and heritage, German engineering and assembled by > Mexicans from imported parts hardly qualify as US made, although they are > partly American in a geographic sense ;-) > > Take the Manhattan Project - apart from General Groves, how many of the > top people on the project were US citizens ten years before it started? Actually, the top guy - Oppenheimer - was. But you're right, most of the rest were ex-pat European scientists. FloydR >> "Tom K." <tkorth1@spamspamcomcast.net> wrote >>>> "pltrgyst" <pltrgyst@spamlessxhost.org> wrote [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >FloydR Huh? Oppenheimer a US Citizen but NOT a US national. He developed the V1 rockets or something similar before changing sides - didn't he? > On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 12:31:28 -0700, "Floyd Rogers" wrote: >>Actually, the top guy - Oppenheimer - was. But you're right, most of the >>rest were ex-pat European scientists. > > Huh? Oppenheimer a US Citizen but NOT a US national. He developed the V1 > rockets or something similar before changing sides - didn't he? You can't take 30 seconds to look him up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer You're obviously (and wrongly) thinking of von Braun, who had nothing at all to do with a-bombs. FloydR >> On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 12:31:28 -0700, "Floyd Rogers" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >FloydR Yep! Von Braun - but Oppenheimer was not a US national. Didn't Von Braun do something for the US with rockets? Memory only - can't be botherd looking up on Wikipedia > On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 08:44:44 -0700, "Floyd Rogers" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Yep! Von Braun - but Oppenheimer was not a US national. Oppy was born in the US in 1912, his parents moved to the US in 1888. That makes him a US National. You *really* need to read before writing. FloydR >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 08:44:44 -0700, "Floyd Rogers" wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >FloydR I know but can't be bothered just now. You know what its like - back off vacation and another 4 weeks of doing nothing - brain rot seep in and before you know it its Christmas again...................... Am I the only one that can't find the list? The link goes to a long winded monologue of what a sports car is, but there are not even close to ten examples, and a Porsche 911 is eliminated because it has a back seat, not to mention it isn't American ... > Top ten all american sports cars > http://mailone.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-all-american-sports-cars.html > Top ten all american sports cars > http://mailone.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-all-american-sports-cars.html I know some will disagree but I consider my 2002 Plymouth Prowler to be a "sports car". I love it and it's made in the USA. Just my 2 cents worth! -Carl N. >> Top ten all american sports cars >> http://mailone.blogspot.com/2007/08/ten-all-american-sports-cars.html > > I know some will disagree but I consider my 2002 Plymouth Prowler to be a > "sports car". I love it and it's made in the USA. A Prowler is a sports car!? Yeah, right ... <wink> >I know some will disagree but I consider my 2002 Plymouth Prowler to be a >"sports car". I love it and it's made in the USA. A good test would to bring it to an autocross and see if it can be competitive. Then look at the other members of its class, and decide if it's a sports car or not. -- Larry > On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 17:27:25 -0500, "Carl Night" > <hardwaretech@NOSPAM.cox.net> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > car or > not. I'd like to have a Prowler. Maybe a race for pink slips against my Jeep would be fun, the only rule is, I get to set the course ... PS My Jeep has not been out of the barn in over two years, but it still kicks a.s if I get to point its nose ... On the other hand, a Prowler that has even attmpted to go where my Jeep goes would need a helicopter to get it to my driveway, and I'm not sure that such a Prowler would be something I'd want in my stable ... PS2 IThe Prowler is a sports car by the definition given in the link provided by the OP. Trouble is, my Jeep CJ5 fits the defginition too. Well, except for the V8 part ... |
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