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Car Forum / BMW Cars / August 2007

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Tips for removing E30 exhaust?

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blickcd@aol.com - 05 Aug 2007 15:56 GMT
I'm going to replace the center bearing on the drive shaft but first
need to remove the exhaust system.

While I've done a lot of work on this car over the years and have all
the usual tools, I am at a loss as to the best way to remove the front
part of the exhaust system from the manifold.

The twin pipes are attached with three nuts each and given the angle
they are at they are tough to reach, even from below with a super long
extension.  I tried putting a u-joint on the extension, which helped,
but considering the force I will need to put on these to break them
loose I am concerned about breaking off the studs.

Any tips or tricks to this from someone who has been there would be
appreciated.  The Bentley manual is of little help here.  FYI, this
car is an 88 convertible.

Thanks,
Christopher
daytripper - 05 Aug 2007 16:03 GMT
>I'm going to replace the center bearing on the drive shaft but first
>need to remove the exhaust system.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Thanks,
>Christopher

Get a small bottle of rust-busting fluid and liberally apply it to all of the
studs, lugs and nuts that you need to remove - and let that do its thing
overnight.  Then try loosening the nuts.

If you get to where you're sure you're about to break something, it's time to
get out the propane torch to heat up the nut (obviously, using care not to
light-up the car ;-)

Fire makes everything good :-)

/daytripper
'00 s4 6spd
Psycho - 08 Aug 2007 22:44 GMT
>>I'm going to replace the center bearing on the drive shaft but first
>>need to remove the exhaust system.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>/daytripper
>'00 s4 6spd

If none of this works and the stud does break off, remove the manifold
from the side of the engine and put in a new stud. One of mine sheared
off and after I removed the manifold (easy with the downpipes already
off) I heated the area real good with a torch and spun it right out.
The studs will most likely unscrew from the manifold at which point
it's easy and cheap to put in new studs. I would have been alright but
the one bolt was dicked up and I twisted the end of the bolt off with
the nut still attached (impact wrench and a screw it attitude). Since
I didn't care if I ripped the stud loose, I poured the impact wrench
to the job...
blickcd@aol.com - 10 Aug 2007 13:18 GMT
Thanks for the advice so far.  Another tip I got from a co-worker was
that if I had no luck with PJ Blaster was to start up the car and let
it run for a while to heat up the manifold, let it cool a bit and
spray on more solvent.

I've tried this twice now and still no luck.  Leaning into the cheater
pipe extension on the breaker bar heavily and quite surprised I
haven't broken anything yet.  I've also purchased some wobble
extensions for the socket wrench which have a tapered as opposed to a
square end, giving me a little extra slop to get the socket on the
nuts.

Having run the car again last night and sprayed on more Blaster, I
will try once again.  However, this weekend if I am still not making
progress it will be very tempting to buy some metric impact sockets
and lay into it with the air wrench.

Any more suggestions are welcome, and for the guys who broke studs and
had to pull the manifolds, please fill me in a little bit since I know
I am at risk for doing the same.  I hate to make more work for myself
and considering the tough time I am having with the pipes, I assume
the manifold nuts and studs would be just as bad.  Plenty of rust on
them as well, although it looks like you can get to them straight on
with normal extensions.

Thanks,
Christopher
Dave Plowman (News) - 10 Aug 2007 18:32 GMT
> Any more suggestions are welcome, and for the guys who broke studs and
> had to pull the manifolds, please fill me in a little bit since I know
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> them as well, although it looks like you can get to them straight on
> with normal extensions.

The head to manifold fixings don't normally corrode so much as their
temperature is restricted to something closer to boiling water temperature.

With the manifold off a broken pipe fixing stud can usually be persuaded
out quite easily by heating the manifold with a blowlamp.

Signature

*Succeed, in spite of management *

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Psycho - 11 Aug 2007 03:44 GMT
>Thanks for the advice so far.  Another tip I got from a co-worker was
>that if I had no luck with PJ Blaster was to start up the car and let
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>Thanks,
>Christopher

Bolts holding manifold to block don't seem to stick anything like
downpipe bolts. Don't know why but I'll accept Dave's explanation for
lack of anything scientific...
Dave Plowman (News) - 11 Aug 2007 08:48 GMT
> Bolts holding manifold to block don't seem to stick anything like
> downpipe bolts. Don't know why but I'll accept Dave's explanation for
> lack of anything scientific...

Oi. Mine was meant to be scientific. ;-) The manifold itself has little in
the way of cooling and exhaust gasses can make parts of it reach very high
temperatures. But the engine castings are basically restricted to coolant
temp so the fixings at that end of the manifold will be kept cooler by
conduction.

Signature

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   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

hsg@h-gee.co.uk - 11 Aug 2007 11:00 GMT
>>Thanks for the advice so far.  Another tip I got from a co-worker was
>>that if I had no luck with PJ Blaster was to start up the car and let
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>downpipe bolts. Don't know why but I'll accept Dave's explanation for
>lack of anything scientific...

Actually the head is cooled or rather kept at a reasonable acceptable
temperature - hopefully by the "cooling system" whereas the downpipe is where
ALL the exhaust gasses meet and remember they are still expanding thus slowing
and the heat remains there longer.  If that area gets anywhere near "red hot"
which it can easily do then you have an oxygenating situation.  When anything
burns it must combine with oxygen - when metal or rather steel (iron) burns if
creates Ferrous Oxide that is commonly referred to as RUST.  Eventually the rust
or FeO2 expands and meets the other members of its clan on the flange, studs,
washers or whatever might be about that contains Fe (iron).

When we used to do turbo conversions we always used Stainless studs and Aircraft
locking stainless nuts (the type with the pinched washer type locking
arrangements) DO NOT make the mistake of using Ny-Locks as the plastic WILL melt
and the nuts fall off.

FORD downpipe nuts used to be made of BRONZE - albeit not high quality but
bronze all the same which was a step in the right direction and these 17mm nuts
were self locking too as were the studs that were, strangely, made to X-thread
to lock into the manifold and or cyl heads.

Also remember that the downpipe connection is lower that the head flange thus
susceptible to water splashes and condensation from short journeys where the
temperature doesn't get high enough. Another thought is that unleaded fuel burns
at a higher temperature than leaded and more vigorously so the temperature is
naturally going to be hotter too.

Exhaust systems are usually aluminium coated these days and some are SS but not
many.  The exhaust is designed to run HOT to enable the cat to start working
ASAP so high temps again at the downpipe (cats cause restrictions that slow the
gas thus heat is held in place for longer). Hot exhausts mean less water vapour
and cats mean less acids etc so we now have exhausts that last for ten years or
more rather than the old days when they needed swapping every two years due to
rust and acid eating through the silencers (mufflers).

The original cats and exhaust were as good as new when I sold my E38 740i two
months ago - 13 years old with 198K miles.

There's my 2p or 2c worth but someone out there will disagree..................!

Signature

Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen
hsg@h-gee.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

Psycho - 11 Aug 2007 15:34 GMT
Alright guys, when I said "due to lack of anything scientific", I was
being sarcastic. I certainly didn't want to work anyones brain this
hard. Dave's explanation was more than acceptable.

SMILE!!!
hsg@h-gee.co.uk - 11 Aug 2007 18:54 GMT
>Alright guys, when I said "due to lack of anything scientific", I was
>being sarcastic. I certainly didn't want to work anyones brain this
>hard. Dave's explanation was more than acceptable.
>
>SMILE!!!

This ain't working hard it's easy for me to remember such trivial things like
Dave and his electronics and Oppenheimer and the Atom Bomb.............!

It's the boiling of an acceptable egg that I have difficulty with and that
contraption called a Vacuum Cleaner........... So I got married again (13 years
ago)          Why buy a dog and bark yourself I say.....;>))

BTW my mate Spock said it only Logical........................... Live long and
Prosper.
Signature


Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen
hsg@h-gee.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

blickcd@aol.com - 13 Aug 2007 12:43 GMT
Thanks all for your suggestions.  I was able to get the exhaust system
off over the weekend and didn't break anything in the process.

There was no real secret to it other than perhaps persistance.
Repeated soakings with PB Blaster, heating with a torch, and trying to
break the nuts loose every night for a week, the nuts finally gave
in.  I'll also point out that these were steel nuts.  When I put it
all back together I will use copper or brass nuts and antiseize.

With those manifold connections undone, I simply disconnected all
exhaust hangers, pipes supported with two floor jacks, and with some
wiggling to get it loose, I was able to drop the entire exhaust system
off in one piece and drag it out from under the car.  Heat shields
enclosing the tunnel were easy to remove.

My diagnosis was correct that the center bearing rubber mounting is
completely destroyed.  Everything is marked for proper reinstallation
but I can't remove the driveshaft just yet.  I need to get an offset
wrench to get to the nuts on the forward side of the flexible coupling
(guibo sp?) which looks just fine.  Bentley manual shows an open end
wrech reaching right up onto those nuts but my rear transmission mount
is wider and in the way, possibly because my car is a convertible or
the book is not showing the mount for an automatic trans, which I also
have.

Should I run into more trouble I'll post again.  Should all go well I
might post an update just for whoever else tries this later.

Christopher
baltimoreben - 13 Aug 2007 15:01 GMT
On Aug 13, 7:43 am, blic...@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks all for your suggestions.  I was able to get the exhaust system
> off over the weekend and didn't break anything in the process.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Christopher

this is off and yet not off topic, hope nobody will mind the segue.  i
bought my 85 some months back, and just starting to get into its
issues.  one of which came to mind when seeing this thread...that is,
need to replace the front brake rotors, and that silly little set
screw just doesn't want to come out.  i certainly haven't been as
persistent as christopher; tried a couple of times letting it soak
with liquid wrench, but with that little (5mm?) hex needed to get it
out, can't exactly get out the breaker bar, so i'm not getting
anyplace.  so, on the related topic of getting stuck bits out, anyone
have ideas for me here?  (on the list for future are window switches,
a sunroof that i have to crank manually, a non-functional ac that i
sweated through this summer and hope to tackle over the winter, rear
shock mounts and finding a replacement for that silly black cardboard
cowling under the dash that keeps falling down and getting stuck on my
feet or worse interfering with pedal operation entirely...still,
brakes are a priority so i thought i'd get there first.)

thanks in advance.
Oscar@nowhere.com - 13 Aug 2007 15:18 GMT
snip

>this is off and yet not off topic, hope nobody will mind the segue.  i
>bought my 85 some months back, and just starting to get into its
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>out, can't exactly get out the breaker bar, so i'm not getting
>anyplace.

Actually they usually come out quite easily with a 2lb or 4lb hammer and an
IMPACT driver.  this is a device with a shallow scroll screw inside that is
spring loaded. a 3/8 drive is at one end and you can get kits of "bits" that
include the 5 mm hex and the 7mm for the brake calipers.

You put the hex into the 3/8 drive and then set the unit for left or right.
Insert the hex drive and level the unit. Hit it HARD with the hammer and the
shock wave should jar the threads and head free and the shallow scroll will undo
the screw ever so slightly.

As the hammer hits the shaft that you are holding stays still and the "bit" is
forced to turn either left or right as you set it and the little bugger is
loosened.

Works every time  - cost here in UK about $20 (equiv)

> so, on the related topic of getting stuck bits out, anyone
>have ideas for me here?  (on the list for future are window switches,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>thanks in advance.
baltimoreben - 20 Aug 2007 15:07 GMT
wow, i had one of those years ago, never again thought i'd have a use
for it so i guess i'll buy another.  THANKS.  if it works on mine,
that'll be great.
Dave Plowman (News) - 13 Aug 2007 18:49 GMT
> this is off and yet not off topic, hope nobody will mind the segue.  i
> bought my 85 some months back, and just starting to get into its
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> out, can't exactly get out the breaker bar, so i'm not getting
> anyplace.

Assuming you haven't damaged the head beyond a certain point an impact
driver is a good way to go. By this I mean the old type you hit with a
hammer rather than the modern cordless impact drills.

If it is too damaged just drill it out - the cross head gives a good
centre for the drill. Only drill far enough to shear the head off, then
remove the rest with a pair of grips.

Signature

*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Psycho - 13 Aug 2007 17:27 GMT
>Thanks all for your suggestions.  I was able to get the exhaust system
>off over the weekend and didn't break anything in the process.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>Christopher

Really only need to remove the three bolts holding the driveshaft yoke
to the flex coupling. The three holding the coupling to the tranny can
stay where they are...
daytripper - 11 Aug 2007 19:45 GMT
>Alright guys, when I said "due to lack of anything scientific", I was
>being sarcastic. I certainly didn't want to work anyones brain this
>hard. Dave's explanation was more than acceptable.
>
>SMILE!!!

Meh.
According to his sig, he probably copied someone else's work ;-)
hsg@h-gee.co.uk - 12 Aug 2007 10:55 GMT
>>Alright guys, when I said "due to lack of anything scientific", I was
>>being sarcastic. I certainly didn't want to work anyones brain this
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Meh.
>According to his sig, he probably copied someone else's work ;-)

Go away Daytripper.............. All my own work but then you could say that the
information was learned or taught via a good education and practical skills
which has been handed down through the ages from Archimedes to Major Carter of
Stargate Command........................

It's all available in the physics books and chemistry books plus having the
intelligence to put the information into practice.  that why we have trainee
Mechanics (Some never learn), Engineers and so forth such as Doctors etc....

No sir - you are never too old to learn something new and once learned it is
usually never forgotten.  Sometimes the brain will only remember the major
points and you will have to return to the book to see which order the head bolts
need tightening in and to what torque and similar fine details but once grasped
the basics of a situation and the caused of problems one can usually use the
transferable skills to tackle a similar situation and produce a reason
(development engineers) and effect a remedy (Production engineers). However,
there is no known solution to work done by the majority of owners and/or
"quick-Lube" or " Kwik-Fit" depots and so called exhaust specialists.

At my age (61) I've done a lot of racing, building fast cars and race engines,
power-boat engines and designed and fitted turbo-Chargers to production cars for
a couple of major importers to the UK in the early days (80 - 85) when I decided
to retire but got an offer I couldn't refuse - wife wanted a
divorce..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I now teach Electronics and Engineering to idiots that like to think of
themselves as the world's best at the tender age of 16.
Signature


Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen
hsg@h-gee.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

dizzy - 13 Aug 2007 16:47 GMT
>Exhaust systems are usually aluminium coated these days and some are SS but not
>many.  

?  I thought SS exhausts were the norm.
steve-caner@clara.co.uk - 13 Aug 2007 21:36 GMT
>>Exhaust systems are usually aluminium coated these days and some are SS but not
>>many.  
>
>?  I thought SS exhausts were the norm.

Not on EVERY car made.  My old Lamborghini had SS pipes and so did my Dino but
not from the factory.

If that were the case why do we still see muffler shops like Kwik-Fit here in
the UK.  I know they are diversifying into other areas like yearly tests and
expanding the tyre (tire) side into alloy wheels but there is still a lot of
cash to be made from exhausts in "cooking" cars.
Dave Plowman (News) - 08 Aug 2007 22:57 GMT
> The twin pipes are attached with three nuts each and given the angle
> they are at they are tough to reach, even from below with a super long
> extension.  I tried putting a u-joint on the extension, which helped,
> but considering the force I will need to put on these to break them
> loose I am concerned about breaking off the studs.

I reckon you've just got to accept a stud or two will break and be
prepared to replace them. And use brass nuts in the future...

Signature

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   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Psycho - 09 Aug 2007 21:43 GMT
The original parts I believe were brass nuts. I know the replacements
were. Mine had been replaced with regular nuts (and one had a bolt in
it) before I got it. New studs and nuts are cheap compared to almost
anything else under the hood...

>> The twin pipes are attached with three nuts each and given the angle
>> they are at they are tough to reach, even from below with a super long
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I reckon you've just got to accept a stud or two will break and be
>prepared to replace them. And use brass nuts in the future...
Dave Plowman (News) - 09 Aug 2007 22:42 GMT
> The original parts I believe were brass nuts. I know the replacements
> were.
Originals are sometimes also some form of corrosion resistant steel.  

> Mine had been replaced with regular nuts (and one had a bolt in
> it) before I got it.

Yes - have an exhaust fitted and they invariably fit new cheap steel nuts
laying up problems for the future.

> New studs and nuts are cheap compared to almost
> anything else under the hood...

True - but broken studs don't always come out easily.

Signature

*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Homer - 10 Aug 2007 22:45 GMT
> I'm going to replace the center bearing on the drive shaft but first
> need to remove the exhaust system.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks,
> Christopher

Christopher,

I was a professional mechanic for over two decades.
In that time I have seen more than a few stubborn exhaust fasteners.
Some of the worst ones only responded to a combination of penetrating
lubricant and carefully applied percussion waves generated by an pneumatic
hammer with a small drift tool attached.
The force being applied at a shallow angle to one of the faces of the nut.
If the threads are not too badly fretted, the nut should spin off easily
after being "broken loose" with the hammer/drift tool. Worst case scenerio,
you can torch them off, drive out the remainder of the studs and
"through-bolt" them when you reinstall.

Best of Luck

Homer
 
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