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Car Forum / BMW Cars / September 2007Legal/warranty issue UK
Hi, I have a 2006 Porsche 997C2S, which I have had from new. I have heard a strange rattling noise within the drivers side door for the last couple of weeks. Taking the car to my dealer, they telephoned me to say that they had discovered that 2 spot-welds on a steel repair plate inside the door are weak and will need re-welding. The only problem is that I haven't been involved in an accident, let alone have a major bodywork repair. The only person to ever drive the car was me and the delivery drivers from the dealerships. Would anyone be able to advise me on a legal basis where I stand? If the damage was done prior to delivery to me, and I had known about it, I would never have paid full price for the car. Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks. What if there are other undiscovered damage/repairs? can I insist on a warranty extension at their cost? or maybe a fully independent inspection? Can I expect a rebate on the purchase price, or should I instruct a lawyer to deal with this? Any help/advice would be much appreciated. BTW, I have no personal proof that I didn't cause the damage and have it repaired other than the fact that my insurance company will confirm that I have had no claims since the purchase of the car. TIA >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >TIA Wow! My fees are ten bottles of Jack Daniels delivered personally in Hawaii. However, until that day here are my views. I did you inspect the car as any normal retail customer would have done so - i.e. in a showroom? I mention RETAIL as opposed to a TRADE buyer so if you have any connections with the motor trade and/or have dealt or deal part time and the garage can prove this then you might be classed as a TRADER and no warranty. Its a legal get out. If the goods were damaged and it is obvious or were pointed out prior to the sale then the legal terms are - TOUGH sh.t. If it was ever reasonable for you to remove the door panel at any time then why didn't you notify sooner. To my mind if this is the first time you have had cause to tell the dealer (did you buy from this dealer?) that there was a problem inside the door and the dealer found a REPAIR - was it really a repair or maybe a production modification for the new gadget they introduced on this model??? If they sold you the car and you can prove to a civil court that you never suffered damage and the vehicle was supplied in that condition you have a claim for a full refund as the goods were not as described - NEW - or if you accept the vehicle as is in a damaged condition compensation should be forthcoming in respect of lost value on re-sale. If you belong to the RAC/AA or know of a motoring legal service - perhaps your own insurance company if you have person loss claims insurance as they are insuring a car they considered as NEW when it isn't. Porsche will have document to show when the car was made and who shipped it and when it got to the dealer who again should have proof of what happened to it. Remember a dealer also carries insurance to cover accidents so a repair to the car would be covered and if a Porsche dealer they would have repaired it with new items so no problem. In some cases a manufacture date is stamped on the body panels a legal team can sort this out. Your trading standards office will also be interested as will the BBC, Auto Express, Autocar, ITV, Watchdog. Start banding these words about - Oh forgot Daily mirror, sun, New of the World , times etc. Call Porsche to inspect the car and instruct a solicitor initially and serve an injunction to get the garage to supply all the information you need. and DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hugh  SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK Hugh, Many thanks for the speedy response. I'll answer your points in full and look forward to that visit to Hawaii! >>Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > so - > i.e. in a showroom? Normal look at the car on pick-up. I have no connections to the motor trade. > I mention RETAIL as opposed to a TRADE buyer so if you have any > connections with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the > sale then the legal terms are - TOUGH sh.t. There was nothing obvious at all. In fact this could have been done during a service visit and not at outset. > If it was ever reasonable for you to remove the door panel at any time > then why > didn't you notify sooner. Never heard the noise before, and had no reason to remove the panel. > To my mind if this is the first time you have had cause to tell the dealer > (did > you buy from this dealer?) that there was a problem inside the door and > the > dealer found a REPAIR - was it really a repair or maybe a production > modification for the new gadget they introduced on this model??? I checked with the service manager (a good guy) who told me that off the record it is almost certainly a repair. He has sent pictures to the warranty department to get their view as well. I originally got the car from porsche Hatfield, but changed to West London because Hatfield gave me a crap service. > If they sold you the car and you can prove to a civil court that you never > suffered damage and the vehicle was supplied in that condition you have a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > forthcoming in > respect of lost value on re-sale. How do I prove that I *didn't* do the damage?. They could technically claim that I had the door repaired outside of Porsche's dealer network. > If you belong to the RAC/AA or know of a motoring legal service - perhaps > your > own insurance company if you have person loss claims insurance as they are > insuring a car they considered as NEW when it isn't. I'll have a word with Tesco. > Porsche will have document to show when the car was made and who shipped > it and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > DO IT > NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks again for all your help Hugh. > Hugh The car has had a repair in the door panel, yet you purchased it new and you've never had a mishap? The car was purchase from an authorized Porsche dealer? If I understand correctly then, you got a car that somehow got seriously damaged, was repaired, and then sold as new. This isn't normal practice by any new car dealer, but there are unscrupulous brokers that will purchase dinged cars, throw a cosmetic repair at it, and sell as program car, demonstrator ... even as new. (Most major manufacturers do an extensive pre-delivery inspection and any minor cosmetic flaws are corrected. There's a threshold that requires that the damage be documented and the information provided to the purchaser ... at least in the US.) If you bought the car from an authorized dealer, I think Porsche GB would have a vested interest in insuring your satisfaction and provide a first-quality repair and warrantee extension. If not, there's a Latin phrase that's appropriate. Perhaps a lawyer can help. R / John > The car has had a repair in the door panel, yet you purchased it new and > you've never had a mishap? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > purchase dinged cars, throw a cosmetic repair at it, and sell as program > car, demonstrator ... even as new. The car was purchesed from a main dealer thaqt it actually owned by Porsche. I'm not sure if the damage was done pre-sale or during a service call. > (Most major manufacturers do an extensive pre-delivery inspection and any > minor cosmetic flaws are corrected. There's a threshold that requires [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > R / John I'll post the results of what Customer Services say next week and it will be interesting to see just how they react. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > weak and will need re-welding. > Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks. You lucky bastard. They will fix your rattle free. In another two weeks you'd have to pay. : Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks. if you bought the car new or used from a Porsche dealer then they'll repair it (should be no charge) while they have it, consider having a 103 point inspection done and purchase another year of warranty (costs 900 euros here in Germany) > : Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks. > > if you bought the car new or used from a Porsche dealer then they'll > repair > it (should be no charge) Why should I accept a repair? They have given me damaged goods as new. > while they have it, consider having a 103 point inspection done and > purchase > another year of warranty (costs 900 euros here in Germany) >> : Also, the car is out of warranty in 2 weeks. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Why should I accept a repair? Because you have had the benefit of the use of the vehicle for 11 months or 2 years or whatever and only now had a problem come to light. Monetary compensation might be the only addition you would get over and above a competent repair that should entail a NEW door if it was damaged when you took delivery. You might need an electron microscope to find out how many paint layers and the age and make of the paint and whether it was Porsche supplied (factory mix) or factor mixed. >They have given me damaged goods as new. See above. I feel for you but usually there is a "reasonable" clause for 100% refund and it usually amounts to what a reasonable person would expect and the courts make the reasonable assumption around 6 - 12 months for damaged goods. There is another escape route in that if you have previously accepted a repair then there has been a precedent set in that you have ACCEPTED faulty goods. One thing I will say to you - always have a BATNA Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement or in simple speak always go into a negotiation with a figure that you will accept and scream for the maximum but never drop below your BATNA. Another is - make your demand and shut up - DO NOT SAY ANYTHING - first to speak loses. NEVER give the enemy an excuse or a free answer that you suggest ALWAYS let them offer and you say YES or NO remember NEVER offer anything. >> while they have it, consider having a 103 point inspection done and >> purchase >> another year of warranty (costs 900 euros here in Germany) Sir Hugh of Bognor SignatureI used to be an Egotistical Meglomaniac - but now I'm just perfect! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK Excellent advice. Similar applies in selling situations. (Well, this is a 'selling' situation; wronged owner seeks to 'sell' his required redress.) DAS For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement or in simple speak always go > into a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > free > answer that you suggest [...] : Why should I accept a repair? : They have given me damaged goods as new. if it's repaired good as new, what's the big deal? our 996 developed RMS leakage, and they fixed it, no problem. it's possible that the faulty weld/defect in the door took a while to manifest itself. I do not believe you have "damaged goods". I do not see that you have any actionable issues. I believe you have a vehicle that was built according to specs. The door went through a mfg. spec check, and it was found that a plate was needed for whatever reason. They added said plate, presumably outside of the automated mfg line, and after some period of time that modification failed. Now, they have to repair it again. I agree with your position that for the money you paid for the car, you might expect First Quality goods. With Porsche printed on the hood and trunk lid, I'd expect better quality as well, but it is just a car. Let them fix the car, then decide if you want to keep it or sell it. If you sell it, resist the temptation to buy another. If Porsche can not or will not fix it, THEN you might have an actionable claim. But as long as they agree to put the warranty department to work, then your subsequent action will arise from those repairs or the lack of them. Your claim will be under what we call here in the States, the Lemon Law. A lemon is a car that is plagued with manufacturing defects, but to make a claim under the lemon law, they have to attempt repair the SAME THING three times. It they can't fix after three tries, then you can make a claim under the lemon law, but the manufacturer is only required to buy the car back for your purchase price plus any finance charges you might have made. Depending on the good will they might want to express, they may elect to compensate for your troubles, but most buyers are happy to be clear of the piece of sh.t, and the related payments. I do not see your case as a Lemon Law issue yet, you have not said that they have been given several chances to clear this up. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- >I do not believe you have "damaged goods". I do not see that you have any >actionable issues. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >yet, you have not said that they have been given several chances to clear >this up. The US Lemon Law is a nice bit of legal stuff but here we have "the sale of goods act" which itself is slightly better protection that you have in the US. Generally it's "Caveat Emptor" in the US or Buyer Beware. Over her the basic rule is that whatever is sold in the way of TRADE or Retail and not person to person or trader to trader must be what it is supposed to be and fit for the purpose it was intended to be used for. An example would be as our friend said "Mr Porsche dealer can I have a new Porsche straight from the production line as I want to drive it from London to Alicante in Spain" No problem if the car has 38 miles on it when delivered to the customer and smalls of dead cow hide (leather) and goes like a Saturn 5 rocket. However in our friend told the dealer he was a sheep farmer and wanted the Porsche to replace his tractor and the dealer told him it would do everything his tractor would do then he can have his money back as it clearly won't. That is a bit OTT. But whatever it is it must be of merchantable quality without any defects unless pointed out (sale goods - pre registered cars - demos etc). To my mind under UK law if and I reiterate IF this vehicle was delivered to the customer in a pre damaged - repaired condition then it clearly was NOT in the advertised and sold as condition as a NEW vehicle as it had been involved in an "accident" and repaired making it "TAINTED". However, as before a court might consider that the guy has had use of it without this repair coming to light for however long but now this damage has come to the surface the resale value of the vehicle has been lowered and the court could order a sum to compensate the guy for this loss at today's prices. The company could buy back the car at current retail selling price on the SH market or they could give him his purchase price back + finance interest (unlikely). As I said - sort out your BATNA and calmly negotiate but do not suggest anything except the opening gambit of "I WANT MY MONEY BACK + INTEREST" and settle for a perfect fix, loan car, monetary compensation for loss of value as a damaged vehicle and a signed declaration that it was damaged by a dealer, or Porsche, prior to delivery and has not been involved in a traffic incident. Whatever you do instruct a solicitor NOW and lodge a claim before time runs out. Sir Hugh of Bognor SignatureI used to be an Egotistical Meglomaniac - but now I'm just perfect! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK >>I do not believe you have "damaged goods". I do not see that you have any >>actionable issues. [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > they > could give him his purchase price back + finance interest (unlikely). Yes, but it is not clear that the vehicle was repaired because of damage, or was modified at the factory during manufacturing because they found that a plate was needed that was not part of the original design spec. We just don't know what the circumstances are surrounding the plate that has come loose. I understand the point that if the vehicle had been wrecked, and repaired, then sold as new, this is an actionable fraud case. Let's say, for example, the car was out on a test drive -- not delivered to the buyer (and not this buyer) -- and was struck in the door. The dealership turns around and rotates the car through the body shop to get pounded out and painted, then they sell it as a New Car. Technically, it IS a new car since it had never been registered. This could be construed as a fraudulent sale, but it seems to me that the dealership would not want the bad press that goes with being discovered on this. They would avoid the bad press by putting the car on the used car lot and selling it at a discount over the price of the same car on the new car lot. The discount would be small because they would be up-front with the buyer -- we had this car on a test drive and some putz ran into it, as you can see it is in perfect condition but we did have to roll it through the body shop for repairs, you can take advantage of our loss here and have a brand new car for a used car price. Sign here. And here, and here. Barring any further factual information, I see no actionable issues here. Perhaps that's why I am not a lawyer ... >>>I do not believe you have "damaged goods". I do not see that you have any >>>actionable issues. [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] >don't know what the circumstances are surrounding the plate that has come >loose. Jeff That is why I mentioned that this "plate" could be a modification for some gizmo that could be fitted as an accessory and installed on the production line. It was not mentioned whether this was a damage repair or where exactly it might be. I believe there are side impact bars in the doors and any half decent body shop would have re skinned the door if it was surface damaged or even replaced it if damaged on arrival off a transporter. My BMW had 2 scratches from the delivery driver and all the fuel siphoned from the tank. The company I bought it from gave me the money to fill the tank again and the local BMW dealer fixed the scratches (minor) FOC and it still carries the BMW 5 year paint warranty and 10 year corrosion warranty. >I understand the point that if the vehicle had been wrecked, and repaired, >then sold as new, this is an actionable fraud case. Let's say, for example, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Barring any further factual information, I see no actionable issues here. >Perhaps that's why I am not a lawyer ... SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > Taking the car to my dealer, they telephoned me to say that they had > discovered that 2 spot-welds on a steel repair plate inside the door are > weak and will need re-welding. Who would use a 'steel repair plate'? If a door is damaged beyond bashing out you either fit a new door complete or a new skin. Your dealer is talking bollocks. Signature*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >TIA Well What happened? Please tell??????????????? Sir Hugh of Bognor SignatureI used to be an Egotistical Meglomaniac - but now I'm just perfect! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK |
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