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Car Forum / BMW Cars / October 2007Alternative LED bulbs - ECU confusion?
Can anyone advise me if fitting after market LED bulbs in indicators, side adn brake lights confuse the onboard computer? I prefer the more responsive light they offer but don't want the car dinging me about dead bulbs! I've a 2001 E39 Thanks David >Can anyone advise me if fitting after market LED bulbs in indicators, >side adn brake lights confuse the onboard computer? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Thanks >David Kits should be a direct plug n play but high level brake lamps are not and I have designed a simple circuit that will fool the onboard computer to stop flashing the LED brahe lamps every 5 seconds.  SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > >> Can anyone advise me if fitting after market LED bulbs in indicators, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Not so much a kit as a direct bulb replacement Take a look: http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/Items/002510-030? As for the circuitry to confuse the computer - how does that work? > Can anyone advise me if fitting after market LED bulbs in indicators, > side adn brake lights confuse the onboard computer? > I prefer the more responsive light they offer but don't want the car > dinging me about dead bulbs! For a start there are no direct replacement LEDs for units designed for tungsten - the optics on these lights is optimised for a point source filament. And for things like indictors this is a very real problem in sunlight etc - the LED replacements simply won't be as bright, or have the same viewing angle. And it's not just a slight difference either. There are currently no LED replacements that meet the specifications required by law in Europe. Completely new lamp units designed from the start for LEDs are a different matter. They will also confuse the failed bulb warning system. Signature*Why is it that rain drops but snow falls? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >> Can anyone advise me if fitting after market LED bulbs in indicators, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Take a look and tell me what you think - these seem pretty well designed to widen the viewing angle: http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/Items/002510-030? > Take a look and tell me what you think - these seem pretty well designed > to widen the viewing angle: > http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/Items/002510-030? These simply don't produce the same light levels as a 21 watt indicator bulb in the normal reflector. Euro car lighting parts must be 'E' marked to conform with those regs. And non of these replacements are - simply because they can't produce the correct spread of light at an intensity to replace a 21 watt filament type. The other type of LED replacement with 5mm leds 'firing' forward do just about produce the same intensity - but only over a very narrow angle. For safety lights like indicators etc where a wide viewing angle is required these things are positively dangerous - they can't be seen in bright daylight. Signature*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >> Take a look and tell me what you think - these seem pretty well designed [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > You're probably right but these ones have high intensity pointing to the rear with side clusters for the reflectors They *may* be very good and I think I will give it a go with front indicators first As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it merely means they haven't been type approved. This could be due to tyhe fact that it costs so much to achieve these markings. It's rather like saying that someone who has passed a driving test is a better driver than someone who hasn't - which of course is not necessarily true (just that passing proves it!). Worth a try for £5 > As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it > merely means they haven't been type approved. Which means that they are illegal to use on the road. > >> As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Which doesn't answer my question. I wasn't after a legal lecture - there's other more appropriate groups for that >> >>> As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I wasn't after a legal lecture - there's other more appropriate groups >for that Er! You asked about LED lamps or bulb replacements and if you are in the UK or Euro land then if NOT type approved then illegal and cannot be fitted for road use. However as it appears that anything goes in the USA then fit and be dammed and stop moaning. If you don't like the answers don't ask the question. SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > If you don't like the answers don't ask the question. > As said, I didn't ask that question. I asked how they work/perform Oh - and if you are so insistent on going OT into legislation, find me the legislation that makes it an offence for a car owner to fit a non-type approved bulb as I am unconvinced that you have the interpretation correct. >> >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >non-type approved bulb as I am unconvinced that you have the >interpretation correct. Either you live on planet zog or are a complete fool. Even the number plates have to be Kite marked with the BS standard number and the letters have to be of standard font and correct spacing so don't give me all that bollocks about not knowing that everything has to be type approval. Just look at your back light lens, front light lens, headlamp unit Radio etc and see the dammed E marks and numbers. It's probably on a sticker on the driver's side door jamb E this E that etc. Physically you can use these in your car no problem but you will be illegal unless you only use it on closed roads or privately owned ground where the public does not have access and the public are persons other than your family so your girlfriend/boyfriend count as public. Even then you might need a licence to drive and third party insurance as the "public" may be present. Non approved bulbs are illegal when used on road vehicles. Just go to car bulbs.com and see what they say about 100w halogen headlight bulbs (off road use only). Check it out dimwit. SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > >As said, I didn't ask that question. I asked how they work/perform > >Oh - and if you are so insistent on going OT into legislation, find me > >the legislation that makes it an offence for a car owner to fit a > >non-type approved bulb as I am unconvinced that you have the > >interpretation correct. > Either you live on planet zog or are a complete fool. Even the number > plates have to be Kite marked with the BS standard number and the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > unit Radio etc and see the dammed E marks and numbers. It's probably on > a sticker on the driver's side door jamb E this E that etc. The car will also fail its MOT with these aftermarket LED bulbs - testers are wise to them. Signature*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > Check it out dimwit. > Hmmm - and yet again the high and mighty cannot read my question and argues a point I am NOT concerned about If you cannot actually assist me with my original question, why do you insist on interfering with your 'oh so law abiding' irrelevancies. I'm sure you always drive at <30 in such speed limits etc etc So if you cannot help - which seems to be the case - why not leave my thread alone and stop resorting to abuse for the fact I don't agree to your every issue! >> >>> [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >thread alone and stop resorting to abuse for the fact I don't agree to >your every issue! Ok The repost the question and I'll see if my far superior brain cells meet yours 1/2 way SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > >> [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > yours 1/2 way > If that is what you believe then your response is not required and I'll decline >> As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it >> merely means they haven't been type approved. > > Which means that they are illegal to use on the road. Well not in the UK, which has [eventually] modified construction and use regulation to allow LED lights, but to certain criteria. A good example of UK civil service jobsworthiness is reflective number plates: - These were shown on Tomorrow's World about 40 years ago. DoT (as it then was) rejected them out of hand and drivers who fitted them prematurely were prosecuted. OTOH Ireland was an early adopter. Finally the UK went over to them and only cars pre 1973 could have non reflective plates made. Now they are obligatory, not only that if your [cherished] plate is to be fitted to a post 2000 car, then you have to have new ones made with the BS mark, although I suppose if they were compliant with BS you could post fix the mark (see another thread). > >> As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it > >> merely means they haven't been type approved. > > > > Which means that they are illegal to use on the road. > Well not in the UK, which has [eventually] modified construction and use > regulation to allow LED lights, but to certain criteria. It allows purpose designed E marked LED lamp units - which is a *very* different matter from using LED replacement bulbs in units designed for filament types. Replacement bulbs for those must be E marked too - and none of the LED ones are, for a very good reason. And that reason is they are dangerous. Just to emphasise the points again they are either bright enough when viewed straight on but useless to the side - one type - or dim all round - the other type. Oh - FWIW, the custom designed LED indictor units fitted to current VW cars are not as bright viewed from directly behind as filament types and considerably inferior to the sides. So could present a totally unnecessary hazard in bright sunlight - all in the name of fashion. Signature*There's two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither one works * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >>>> As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I disagree - they appear better top me which is why I want to try them Rear of lorries/motorcycles/school & public buses have them now too. The E number is not of concern to me - but obviously poor functionality is of concern. E numbers mean the bulb manufacturer has gone through an expensive type approval routine. Non-E number means its compliance cannot be verified NOT that it does not comply with requirements! > > It allows purpose designed E marked LED lamp units - which is a *very* > > different matter from using LED replacement bulbs in units designed [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > I disagree - they appear better top me which is why I want to try them You can disagree all you like but the fact is their off axis light output is way below the correct filament bulb. > Rear of lorries/motorcycles/school & public buses have them now too. Yes - in custom designed units. Not using these 'replacement' bulbs in one designed for a filament type. > The E number is not of concern to me - but obviously poor functionality > is of concern. E numbers mean the bulb manufacturer has gone through an > expensive type approval routine. Non-E number means its compliance > cannot be verified NOT that it does not comply with requirements! Sigh. The manufacturers would love to be able to E mark their replacements. They would sell far more. They *can't* be E marked because they can't meet the spec. Instead of arguing just buy them and do your own tests. But by the tone of your posts you don't give a damn if they are effective or not for the job but simply want them for fashion reasons. Signature*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> The E number is not of concern to me - but obviously poor functionality >> is of concern. E numbers mean the bulb manufacturer has gone through an [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Not true. Performance is what I wanted to know about (rather than E markings). I guess the answer is exactly as you say - have a go and see. If performance is significantly compromised then they will be in the bin >>> The E number is not of concern to me - but obviously poor functionality >>> is of concern. E numbers mean the bulb manufacturer has gone through an [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >I guess the answer is exactly as you say - have a go and see. If >performance is significantly compromised then they will be in the bin Let me ask you a question or two then. Would you buy a car that does not have "type Approval" for use on the road. The question also includes "Single Type Approval" and "Special Import Approval" for use on the UK public road system? How would you react when the said vehicle fails the "MOT" test because the bulbs, number plate and or whole vehicle is not "Type Approved"? SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > >>>> The E number is not of concern to me - but obviously poor functionality [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Why go to extremes to fuel your bloody argument - that's just silly! Of course I wouldn't That said, I'd buy a comb that had not been safety BS (ISO) approved, I'd pay for a go on a go-cart ride on a machine where the history of potentially bodged repairs were an unknown factor, I'd have a go on a theme park ride where the maintenance is outside of my control and there is no type approval etc etc. All car parts are NOT type approved - just the design. This does not guarantee it was made with materials that are perfect (although it should). It is not that rare for non OEM car parts to be legitimately sold and to fail (eg: ball-joints, suspension arms) yet they are legal and have your blessed E numbers thereon. I'm just asking about anyone's ACTUAL experience with a bloody bulb FFS - not your righteous opinion as to whether I should fit one or not. I have no intention of wrecking my BMW and if *I think* the performance is poor I will bin it - but I will not be totally driven by E numbers and even less by your opinion. I'm done with our contribution so sadly, your future contributions will no longer be displayed. >>>> The E number is not of concern to me - but obviously poor functionality >>>> is of concern. E numbers mean the bulb manufacturer has gone through an [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >How would you react when the said vehicle fails the "MOT" test because the >bulbs, number plate and or whole vehicle is not "Type Approved"? About 30 years ago, i started to use aftermarket halogen headlights on my car (back when 7 inch round headlights were the norm). I believe the brand was cibie. Those headlights were not approved for usein the US because they were not a sealed beam. While there were a few police officers who took the time to inform me that they disapproved of the speed at which I was driving, the illegal headlights were never cited. The car even passed state inspections. The point here is one of degree and risk, and what of the former the aftermarket lightbulb presents of the latter. The rest of your messages I read as more specious posturing than anything else. > >How would you react when the said vehicle fails the "MOT" test because > >the bulbs, number plate and or whole vehicle is not "Type Approved"? > About 30 years ago, i started to use aftermarket halogen headlights on > my car (back when 7 inch round headlights were the norm). I believe the > brand was cibie. Those headlights were not approved for usein the US > because they were not a sealed beam. But were superior in every way to the approved type? > While there were a few police officers who took the time to inform me > that they disapproved of the speed at which I was driving, the illegal > headlights were never cited. The car even passed state inspections. > The point here is one of degree and risk, and what of the former the > aftermarket lightbulb presents of the latter. The rest of your messages > I read as more specious posturing than anything else. The point is that these LED replacement bulbs are *inferior* in every respect to the tungsten ones - apart from perhaps life. You might be happy having turn signals and brake lights that can't be seen from certain angles in daylight where tungsten can - most, I'd guess would not. And I'm not theorising - I've tried them. If anyone says the ones I've tried have been improved upon to the point where they are a safe replacement, please give details of where they can be bought. And not just an advert but personal experience of them. Signature*Why is the word abbreviation so long? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >>> How would you react when the said vehicle fails the "MOT" test because [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Many thanks - experience what what I was after. Did you try the 46 element ones or a cheapo 3 filament one? > > And I'm not theorising - I've tried them. If anyone says the ones I've > > tried have been improved upon to the point where they are a safe [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Many thanks - experience what what I was after. > Did you try the 46 element ones or a cheapo 3 filament one? I've not tried any 'cheap' ones - and my comments refer only to replacements for single filament brake or turn signal 21 watt bulbs. There are two basic types on the market - one which fires forward only with usually about 12 ultra bright 5mm LEDs. Available in red white and yellow. These give adequate brightness when viewed directly on axis so *may* be suitable for some applications. But the output falls quickly to the sides so is useless for turn signals. The other type has 3mm leds arranged all round it to simulate the PD of a filament bulb and work correctly with a reflector. These fail dismally on all counts. Signature*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >>> And I'm not theorising - I've tried them. If anyone says the ones I've [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > <Laughs> so they're all shite! >> >How would you react when the said vehicle fails the "MOT" test because >> >the bulbs, number plate and or whole vehicle is not "Type Approved"? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >But were superior in every way to the approved type? For my purposes, yes. >> While there were a few police officers who took the time to inform me >> that they disapproved of the speed at which I was driving, the illegal [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The point is that these LED replacement bulbs are *inferior* in every >respect to the tungsten ones - apart from perhaps life. The point is, that statement is your opinion based upon what you see as important, and not a fact. Other people may see other things as important, and therefore have different opinions. > >The point is that these LED replacement bulbs are *inferior* in every > >respect to the tungsten ones - apart from perhaps life. > The point is, that statement is your opinion based upon what you see as > important, and not a fact. Other people may see other things as > important, and therefore have different opinions. I *think* I've made it clear that my objection consists of the brightness of LED replacements 'off axis' compared to filament types. And so far none has contradicted me. You may feel it's your 'human right' to have turn signals that can't be seen from the sides in high ambient light levels. If so, I hope it is you that suffers from such vanity rather than innocent parties. Signature*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >>> The point is that these LED replacement bulbs are *inferior* in every [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > You must be an amazing guy to chat to - given you always make something more from what a person says > >>> The point is that these LED replacement bulbs are *inferior* in every > >>> respect to the tungsten ones - apart from perhaps life. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > You must be an amazing guy to chat to - given you always make something > more from what a person says I see safety above vanity. You apparently don't. Signature*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >You may feel it's your 'human right' to have turn signals that can't be >seen from the sides in high ambient light levels. An objective statement unsupported by statistically significant empirical data, i.e., an opinion not a fact. >>You may feel it's your 'human right' to have turn signals that can't be >>seen from the sides in high ambient light levels. > >An objective statement unsupported by statistically significant empirical >data, i.e., an opinion not a fact. Wasn't that what you asked in the first place? And actually what Dave 'said' was a fact as well as an opinion - can you tell? SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > >You may feel it's your 'human right' to have turn signals that can't be > >seen from the sides in high ambient light levels. > An objective statement unsupported by statistically significant empirical > data, i.e., an opinion not a fact. It is a fact based on the tests I've done on several different samples of replacement LED bulbs. I've repeatedly asked where I can buy ones that are as bright in all directions as a filament bulb - but without success. So until this happens - and I've tested it - to me it remains a fact and not opinion. Since you've not given me the information on where to buy such a bulb I'll let others judge who is correct in this matter. Signature*I'm really easy to get along with once people learn to worship me Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >>> You may feel it's your 'human right' to have turn signals that can't be [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Argumentative and stubborn is how I'd define you! >> >>>> You may feel it's your 'human right' to have turn signals that can't be [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >Argumentative and stubborn is how I'd define you! Please inform us of the answer you would like and we will oblige. SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > > It is a fact based on the tests I've done on several different samples > > of replacement LED bulbs. I've repeatedly asked where I can buy ones [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > Argumentative and stubborn is how I'd define you! And I'd describe you as just plain stupid if you can't follow the safety issues. Signature*I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >>> It is a fact based on the tests I've done on several different samples [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Who said I can't? I am just not getting obsessed with it. If YOU weren't so bloody minded you'd see what I was asking like 8most8 other responses have Your responses *my* OP have been 99% useless to me as you're preaching to a different question. They are unwelcome but hey, no restrictions on ng's so you persist in posting your bollocks on here. If you life revolves around being abusive when people don't say, "Golly gosh Dave, how right you are. I now see the world in a different light. Thanks so much!", then you're a sad old bastard who has no life and should consider adverts like this one for a vocation: *http://tinyurl.com/2sxslq That's my last response to you * >> >>>> It is a fact based on the tests I've done on several different samples [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >That's my last response to you >* Typical - if you don't want the answer - don't ask the question. This must be Alonso's brother throwing what's left of the toys out the pram SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK >>> >>>>> It is a fact based on the tests I've done on several different samples [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >This must be Alonso's brother throwing what's left of the toys out the pram I agree - what a tosser > >> Argumentative and stubborn is how I'd define you! > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Who said I can't? I am just not getting obsessed with it. More stupidity, then. Fitting dangerous lights for the sake of 'fashion' is an obsession of the worst type. > If YOU weren't so bloody minded you'd see what I was asking like 8most8 > other responses have Eh? Are you reading the same thread? > Your responses *my* OP have been 99% useless to me as you're preaching > to a different question. Oh I know how to provide the correct load to prevent the warning circuit objecting to LEDs. But I'm not going to tell you. > They are unwelcome but hey, no restrictions on > ng's so you persist in posting your bollocks on here. Life's a bitch, eh, when you don't get what you want. You could always try learning about electronics. The basics. > If you life revolves around being abusive when people don't say, "Golly > gosh Dave, how right you are. I now see the world in a different light. Petal, have a look back and see who started the insults... > Thanks so much!", then you're a sad old bastard who has no life and > should consider adverts like this one for a vocation: > * http://tinyurl.com/2sxslq Consider an advert as a vocation? In a way I already do. > That's my last response to you Hopefully you will have learnt something. But I doubt it. Signature*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> >>>>> As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >expensive type approval routine. Non-E number means its compliance >cannot be verified NOT that it does not comply with requirements! Again you are talking BOLLOCKS SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK >>> >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Again you are talking BOLLOCKS > OK Mr Gobshite - and on which specific what point am I talking bollocks (and I now await an intelligent response of 'ALL') - be specific rather than the abuse and arrogance the other posts from you have 'offered' >>>> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >(and I now await an intelligent response of 'ALL') - be specific rather >than the abuse and arrogance the other posts from you have 'offered' You ask about the effectiveness of LED replacement bulbs. A question you don't have to ask as the people that sell them will tell you that they do not comply to construction and use regulations therefore they are not as efficient as the ones that are type approved. As Dave said they are a fashion item except for the correctly E marked LED units sold by reputable "dealers" or "outlets". My car has LED lights as do many of the newer VW, Audi and I think Ford vehicles. My old car had LED high level brake lights but these were not type approved as they do not have to be. The effectiveness of them were great - blinding anyone within 2 meters of my back bumper and illuminating the entire road behind me when braking. Better than WW2 searchlights........... Stuff them into a set of E38 rear lights and with the red lens they're total crap and there is no differentiation to 5W rear lamp and 25W stop lamp. Road regs demand 5W bulbs for sidelights and 25W for stop light so if you fit something that has not been rated at those figures then you can rest assured that they are crap for use on the road. Ok now go and argue that a 100W headlamp is better then a 55W bulb and I might agree with the simplistic view that the brighter lamp should put more light on the road and probably does but generally (and this has been proven) the light scatter from the 100W unit gives a worse light distribution than the stock 55W or 60W bulb angled correctly. Also the legal bulbs have a UV filter built into the "glass" envelope whereas the ilea gal one do not and if, like many current vehicles, you happen to have acrylic based plastic lens and other fittings within the headlamp then the UV output is enough to discolour and eventually crack these. Another thing to consider is that LED use UV radiation (minute) and its part of the red light spectrum so red lenses can and will degrade any output unless specifically designed to do the job - Oh - no such thing as white LED they are actually blue and expensive. Your answer please. SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > You ask about the effectiveness of LED replacement bulbs. > > A question you don't have to ask as the people that sell them will tell you that > they do not comply to construction and use regulations therefore they are not as > efficient as the ones that are type approved. Presumption. Like saying Levis are better than Turkish made fake Levis In many many cases (probably most) you are probably right but I'm done arguing this point as many cheap outlets will sell items cheaper having made a saving on not having to submit for type approval (very expensive) > As Dave said they are a fashion item except for the correctly E marked LED units > sold by reputable "dealers" or "outlets". > Fashion? And so is a car design - no? It is also a preference as they are far more responsive > My car has LED lights as do many of the newer VW, Audi and I think Ford > vehicles. My old car had LED high level brake lights but these were not type [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > crap and there is no differentiation to 5W rear lamp and 25W stop lamp. > Possibly - which is what I as asking and such a response is exactly what I was after. Couldn't you have offered that before? > Road regs demand 5W bulbs for sidelights and 25W for stop light so if you fit > something that has not been rated at those figures then you can rest assured > that they are crap for use on the road. > Actually, not quite - 15-36W is the requirement for post 1971 vehicles. The optional extra brake lights ARE also under regulations. If they are fitted they must work and more interestingly, they must emit minimum of 20 candelas and not more than 60 candelas. How confusing the law can be > Ok now go and argue that a 100W headlamp is better then a 55W bulb and I might > agree with the simplistic view that the brighter lamp should put more light on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > crack these. > Interestingly, wattage is not a measure of light. 55W cheapo headlamp vs 55W halogen? Same power consumption of 55W each which equates to 4-4.5A at 12V Your comment re UV is noted. I wasn't aware but in the case of LED - what is the relevance (or were you merely generically attacking non-type approved bulbs again) > Another thing to consider is that LED use UV radiation (minute) and its part of > the red light spectrum so red lenses can and will degrade any output unless > specifically designed to do the job - Oh - no such thing as white LED they are > actually blue and expensive. > Now you're either wrong or I am misunderstanding (naturally, having half your brain matter). As far as I was aware LED's are capable of emitted light from infra red to UV. Infra-red and UV are at opposite ends of the visible light spectrum. Any coloured lens will filter varying amounts of light from different parts of the light spectrum I know. My indicators are clear lenses and so an orange LED may be OK - I'll report back if you'll stop this abusive retort thing you've got going which seems to be more of a battle to win a discussion than actually contributing to my question! > Your answer please. > We are no further forward. I have concluded trial and error is the only answer. >> You ask about the effectiveness of LED replacement bulbs. >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >55W halogen? Same power consumption of 55W each which equates to 4-4.5A >at 12V Agreed However it is a common way of rating bulbs. Light output is measured in Lumens or Photons (what is emitted) or as you say Candelas. It is also noted that you say or intimate that a cheapo vacuum filament bulb or sealed beam unit of old is not as bright as a Halogen gas filled bulb as found in newer cars or even the latest HID units and now the LED headlamps. All are still rated @ 55/60W. Moving the light temperature towards blue will effectively whiten the output not change the wattage used. >Your comment re UV is noted. I wasn't aware but in the case of LED - >what is the relevance (or were you merely generically attacking non-type [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >coloured lens will filter varying amounts of light from different parts >of the light spectrum I know. Yes agree again but both cannot be seen by the eye and UV does the damage - look at sunburn. In the early days of movies the actors were often blinded or suffered sever UV burns from the "ARC" lights used - similar to HID lights. >My indicators are clear lenses and so an orange LED may be OK - I'll >report back if you'll stop this abusive retort thing you've got going >which seems to be more of a battle to win a discussion than actually >contributing to my question! Clear lenses may be better for light output but I would still advise E approval for road use. I really isn't a case of "I don't want to spend the money" it a case of "What can I get away with to rip of the public before I get stopped" If that was the case why doesn't every OEM maker just make it and sell it? Imports have to go through SVA (unless they are 10 or more years old) and even then if LHD have to have RHD light fitted and E approved bulbs, rear fog lamp and, believe it or not - if available - a speedo in MPH. You cannot take a driving test in a LHD car nor one where the Examiner cannot see the speedo and it has to be in MPH. MOT regs list a lot more. >> Your answer please. >> >We are no further forward. >I have concluded trial and error is the only answer. SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > > For safety lights like indicators etc where a wide viewing angle is > > required these things are positively dangerous - they can't be seen in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > They *may* be very good and I think I will give it a go with front > indicators first But I've already said they're not any good. Those 'point in all direction' ones give roughly the equivalent output of a 5 rather than 21 watt tungsten in a reflector unit. You can even do the sums if you wish - the LEDs used are bog standard 3mm types. > As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it > merely means they haven't been type approved. This could be due to tyhe > fact that it costs so much to achieve these markings. You can believe what you like. > It's rather like > saying that someone who has passed a driving test is a better driver > than someone who hasn't - which of course is not necessarily true (just > that passing proves it!). > Worth a try for £5 Why? You can buy 10 tungsten bulbs for this cost which do the job required perfectly. Signature*What was the best thing before sliced bread? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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