 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / BMW Cars / November 2007Synthetic Oil
Hi guys, Earlier this year I bought a brand new 550i. I know, I know.... spoiled brat. My last car was 1993 MB 400e and I bought it a year old with 12k miles on it and changed the oil every 3k without fail. It was the best car I ever owned and still ran great when I sold it with 200k miles on it. I'm still kicking myself for getting rid of it. But I digress. The new car uses synthetic oil like many cars these days. It's the first car I have had that takes synthetic lube oil and BMW is telling me I don't need to change the oil until it hits 11,000 miles (or something like that). This just seems wrong. I know this new synthetic stuff is supposed to pretty slick stuff (no pun intended) but it makes you wonder so I asked my old MB mechanic what he thought about it. Now, this guy is a Master Technician for MB who has been on his own for 15+ years and seems to know his stuff. He says that BMW is leading you down a primrose path. Since routine maintenance in included, they have a say in how often you change your oil. My old mechanic advised me to pay for additional oil changes (at $105 a pop) at least once between every BMW scheduled oil change. While the new synthetic stuff is pretty amazing, he says that while getting double the regular duty cycle of conventional oil is reasonable, pushing it from 3k miles between changes to 10k+ miles is just asking for trouble. He thinks it's a plot by BMW to make you trade in the car for a new one once the included maintenance is done. Any opinions on this topic? Thanks, Jake > Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Any opinions on this topic? What kind of driving do you do? If you drive strictly freeway, then 10K oil changes might be reasonable with today's synthetic oils. However, if you drive stop and go in the city, then I would change it more frequently like every 6-7K miles. If its mix, then every 7-10K is right depending on how much stop and go you're doing. Don't forget the oil filter too! > Any opinions on this topic? Why bother asking? You obviously didn't believe the maker's oil change intervals with your old car if you changed every 3000 so what's changed?  Signature*When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Jake Are you sure it is a BMW - mine has a little light that comes on when it is time to change the oil. On Nov 8, 12:30 am, jake...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Jake A good topic. BMW has a light that goes on, IIRC. 3k mile oil changes are pretty frequent. My car (non performance) says 7,500 or 6 months. If BMW has a way of testing contaminants and remaining protectants, then I could see it being OK to change when they tell you to. I could see synthetic lasting twice as long as regular oil. What happens if the oil sensor breaks though? >A good topic. BMW has a light that goes on, IIRC. On the older BMWs, they went on after a fixed number of miles. On the newer ones, it's a derived value based upon the engine logs. >3k mile oil changes are pretty frequent. My car (non performance) >says 7,500 or 6 months. I always follow the "extreme conditions" section in the manual. Apparently driving 40,000 miles a year, even on the highway, is considered an extreme condition. >If BMW has a way of testing contaminants and remaining protectants, >then I could see it being OK to change when they tell you to. I could >see synthetic lasting twice as long as regular oil. They don't, but they do have a pretty good way of predicting it under ideal circumstances. >What happens if the oil sensor breaks though? That's why you have a dipstick and an odometer... oh yeah, I forgot not everybody has a dipstick now. I find that shameful... --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >A good topic. BMW has a light that goes on, IIRC. > On the older BMWs, they went on after a fixed number of miles. My first BMW was an E28 - and that didn't work on a fixed mileage. Indeed reading about them when they were first fitted I remember they computed a number of factors. > On the newer ones, it's a derived value based upon the engine logs. I think it's universally acknowledged that the type of use or driving a car gets effects the useful life of the oil. Signature*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. On Nov 8, 12:30 am, jake...@gmail.com wrote: >snip > While the new synthetic stuff [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jake I've used synthetic oil in a number of cars with excellent results. However, I have to agree with your mechanic, in general. I think synthetic oil (with a premium oil filter) is easily good for 7500 miles or one year so long as you are fully warming up the car (20 minutes or so) each time you use it. If you use the car for short trips water can accumulate inside the engine and more frequent oil changes should be performed. You can buy Mobil 1 synthetic for your car at WalMart; under $30 for a 5 quart jug (BMW Longlife 01 spec., 0W-40) YMMV > I've used synthetic oil in a number of cars with excellent results. > However, I have to agree with your mechanic, in general. I think [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > trips water can accumulate inside the engine and more frequent oil > changes should be performed. Goof grief. I have a 20 odd year old car that specified 10,000 (or once a year) oil changes using dino oil and a standard filter. It's still running well despite leading a hard life with lots of town use. As well as spirited driving on the open road. What is it with you guys and changing oil so often? Is the quality of your oils so poor? Signature*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > What is it with you guys and changing oil so often? Is the quality of >your oils so poor? I don't worry about the mileage. I just change the oil and filter before each track day. -- Larry >Now, this guy is a Master Technician for MB who has been on his own >for 15+ years and seems to know his stuff. He says that BMW is leading [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Any opinions on this topic? It is interesting that as soon as BMW started offering free maintenance for the first four years, the maintenance schedules changed to remove a LOT of service that used to be considered necessary. Change your oil every 3,000 miles. I don't care HOW long the synthetic can last under ideal conditions, I'd rather err by changing it out too early than too late. New transmission and differential fluid every 50,000 miles. Brake fluid every two years, maybe every year. I tend to do power steering and coolant at the same time as the brake fluid. I'm currently driving cars with 350,000 and 260,000 miles on them, and my last car had 480,000 miles on the odometer when I finally got tired of rebuilding the transmission all the time. I don't like buying new cars. So I may be more paranoid about maintenance than other folks. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > It is interesting that as soon as BMW started offering free maintenance > for the first four years, the maintenance schedules changed to remove a > LOT of service that used to be considered necessary. May have been the case in the US, but here in the UK 'free' maintenance is much more recent. Longer oil change intervals happen as oil is improved. The biggy happened with the specifying of fully synthetic. If you have evidence BMW increased service intervals without changing the oil spec I'd like to see it. Signature*Caution: I drive like you do. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Any opinions on this topic? Do an oil analysis after say 5k miles. That will tell you whether the oil is suitable for further use. Of course the lack of oil dip stick will make it hard to draw a sample without actually draining the oil, but still... at least you'll know if it's safe to go longer on the next interval. Generally, I agree with others though - if you do mainly hwy driving, then 10k miles may be OK. If it's mostly city, stop-and-go traffic, then less. It also depends on how long you're planning to keep this car. If you're going to trade it in once the warranty period is over, then obviously you can just follow the oil change light on your dashboard and not worry about more frequent changes. But the fact that you're even asking this question in the first place leads me to believe you're planning to keep this car running for a long time. And in that case, considering the price of the car, is the extra cost of in-between oil changes really that much? Pete > It also depends on how long you're planning to keep this car. If you're > going to trade it in once the warranty period is over, then obviously [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > considering the price of the car, is the extra cost of in-between oil > changes really that much? My last BMW was an E34 525 - the first 24 valve without VANOS. And as you probably know had to be revved hard to get any real performance. Which I did. It was serviced purely when the indicator said so, using only factory approved oil, and when I traded it in at 140,000 miles, the engine was if anything better than new. Pity about the rest of the car. ;-) Signature*Be more or less specific * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > My last BMW was an E34 525 - the first 24 valve without VANOS. And as you > probably know had to be revved hard to get any real performance. Which I > did. It was serviced purely when the indicator said so, So, on average, how many miles between changes? > using only factory > approved oil, What kind of oil was it? > and when I traded it in at 140,000 miles, the engine was if > anything better than new. Right. And the car instead of consuming fuel actually started producing it. Pete > > My last BMW was an E34 525 - the first 24 valve without VANOS. And as > > you probably know had to be revved hard to get any real performance. > > Which I did. It was serviced purely when the indicator said so, > So, on average, how many miles between changes? Roughly 8-10,000 miles. > > using only factory approved oil, > What kind of oil was it? Duckhams Hypergrade. > > and when I traded it in at 140,000 miles, the engine was if anything > > better than new. > Right. And the car instead of consuming fuel actually started producing > it. ;-) It was as quiet as new, used no oil and slightly more powerful. Subjectively. I didn't actually make any measurements. Signature*I brake for no apparent reason. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. I don't know if it's being an old git but I really don't like these extended service intervals I read somewhere its to keep the bean counters in countries where the majority of buyers are companies and don't care about the long term effect. pennies per mile over 60/80k miles or 4 years I'd personally get the 1st service out of the way (going by the computer/service indicator) and then maybe an independent oil change in between services without touching th/reseting the service indicator? I'd also get the sealed for life autobox 's fluid changed as well :) - the box going is usually what kills the older 3 series i know > I don't know if it's being an old git but I really don't like these > extended service intervals > I read somewhere its to keep the bean counters in countries where the > majority of buyers are companies and don't care about the long term > effect. pennies per mile over 60/80k miles or 4 years Easily checked by having a sample of your oil analysed near the factory indicated oil change time. Many have and report it's always ok and fit for more miles. Unless you think the labs are in on this conspiracy... Signature*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> My last BMW was an E34 525 - the first 24 valve without VANOS. And as you >> probably know had to be revved hard to get any real performance. Which I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Pete As the engine wears the friction losses reduce and performance actually increases until leakage past the rings and valves becomes predominant. Indeed there was a famous 70' or 80's Ford? rally engine which had had a crankcase repair (and so was called "patch"), which for some reason won races*. * this might have been the April edition of the car magazine I read it in, for instance the thrown rod had come out through the engine number... > The new car uses synthetic oil like many cars these days. It's the > first car I have had that takes synthetic lube oil and BMW is telling > me I don't need to change the oil until it hits 11,000 miles (or > something like that). As you can see, oil change threads bring out everyone's "expert" opinion. Fact: BMW doesn't recommend 11,000 mile oil changes, instead the dashboard miles 'til service readout will call for service roughly every 13,000 to 18,000 miles, depending on how you drive - or you should change oil at 1 year, whichever comes first. And if you are in the US, BMW will pay for it. Personally, I also prefer more frequent changes (but not every 3k!), so I have what BMW terms an "Interim" change once in between each scheduled service. If you decide to go that route and have a dealer do it, be sure and request an "Interim Oil/Filter Change" (roughly $100) rather than an "Oil Service" for $250. Tom K. >Personally, I also prefer more frequent changes (but not every 3k!), so I >have what BMW terms an "Interim" change once in between each scheduled >service. If you decide to go that route and have a dealer do it, be sure >and request an "Interim Oil/Filter Change" (roughly $100) rather than an >"Oil Service" for $250. $100 for an oil change???? What do you get for $250? I hope it includes dinner and movie at least. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > $100 for an oil change???? Let's see... the 550i must take at least 8 quarts of synthetic oil. Figure at least $6/qt plus $10 for the filter, so that gives you about $60. That leaves about $40 for maybe half hour or 0.3 hour of labor which sounds about right, depending on who does the labor. My local indy shop charges $86/hour. My dealer charges $130/hour. Welcome to the world of BMW. I change my own oil on my 530i, but between actually changing the oil, buying new oil and returning the used oil, I probably waste at least an hour of my time if not more. If there was someone I could pay $40 to do it, I would do it gladly. The problem is, most places will rush with the oil change, not wait for the old oil to fully drain, underfill or overfill, and other such neusance. So I just prefer to do it myself. At least I have a peace of mind that it's been done right. Pete >> $100 for an oil change???? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > charges $86/hour. My dealer charges $130/hour. Welcome to the world of > BMW. And at $90+ per barrel of crude, I doubt you can still get BMW synthetic for $6 - even after the BMWCCA discount offered by many dealers! If Scott wants to know the difference between an Oil Service and an Oil Change, he needs to RTFM. Tom K. > Let's see... the 550i must take at least 8 quarts of synthetic oil. > Figure at least $6/qt plus $10 for the filter, so that gives you about > $60. The cheapest I've found Mobil 1 5W/30 for (taking that as a bench mark) in the UK is the equivalent of $17 a quart. I now see why you guys change oil with abandon. ;-) Signature*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Let's see... the 550i must take at least 8 quarts of synthetic oil. >> Figure at least $6/qt plus $10 for the filter, so that gives you about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the UK is the equivalent of $17 a quart. I now see why you guys change oil >with abandon. ;-) I think I pay $4.50/qt for Castrol Syntec (the 5W-40 variant) when I get 25 gal or more. For $17/quart you can even get a passable Scotch. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Pete <nouser@nodomain.com> wrote: >> Let's see... the 550i must take at least 8 quarts of synthetic oil. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the UK is the equivalent of $17 a quart. I now see why you guys change oil > with abandon. ;-) I can buy a 6-pack of that at Costco for around $25. Even the 0W/40 that meets the BMW long-life standards is only around $8/quart at the local Shuck's auto supply. FloydR > I can buy a 6-pack of that at Costco for around $25. > Even the 0W/40 that meets the BMW long-life standards is only > around $8/quart at the local Shuck's auto supply. > > FloydR Check your local WalMart for Mobil 1 0W-40 in 5 qt jugs. Price is under $30. In article <24060ec6-a9d1-486d-81b6-5392e6191af2@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > > I can buy a 6-pack of that at Costco for around $25. > > Even the 0W/40 that meets the BMW long-life standards is only > > around $8/quart at the local Shuck's auto supply. > > > > FloydR > Check your local WalMart for Mobil 1 0W-40 in 5 qt jugs. Price is > under $30. Check the actual spec of that oil. Mobil 1 isn't just one oil. And there's more to an oil than the viscosity rating. Signature*I didn't drive my husband crazy -- I flew him there -- it was faster Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Check your local WalMart for Mobil 1 0W-40 in 5 qt jugs. Price is >> under $30. > > Check the actual spec of that oil. Mobil 1 isn't just one oil. And > there's > more to an oil than the viscosity rating. But he specifically mentioned the M1 0w-40. That particular M1 grade meets the BMW spec. Pete > "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote >>> Check your local WalMart for Mobil 1 0W-40 in 5 qt jugs. Price is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But he specifically mentioned the M1 0w-40. That particular M1 grade > meets the BMW spec. Exactly. The 0W-40 meets ACAE A3 B3/B4 and "BMW Longlife 01" None of the other available weights of Mobil 1 do so. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx FloydR >> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote >>>> Check your local WalMart for Mobil 1 0W-40 in 5 qt jugs. Price is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Exactly. The 0W-40 meets ACAE A3 B3/B4 and "BMW Longlife 01" > None of the other available weights of Mobil 1 do so. But interestingly, BMW's current oil is 5W30 formulated by the folks at Castrol. I think you can be quite safe replacing it with Mobil 1, particularly if you're not enamored with 15,000+ change intervals. R / John > But interestingly, BMW's current oil is 5W30 formulated by the folks at > Castrol. But it's not the actual grade that matters. A variety of grades can be used, as long as they meet the BMW specs... 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40, 5w-40... I'm currently running Castrol 0w-30 in my 530i. Pete AHHAaaa! I love hearing you guys in the US!. Here in the UK the right oil for my e46 coupe (BMW longlife01) is £45 for 4 litres, the basic other oils are all at most £45 for 5litres, and the car needs 6 litres. Also - no free oil changes at BMW here! -and they charge £80-140 per hour. So and oil change is pushing $500 with filters and disposal of waste oil. Ain't they sweet. Chipping in - the 5w30 or whatever is important but you also need to look at the SAE, A1, B2, CF etc codes on the oils. I beleive this is something to do with the purity. Same as tolerance on Unleaded-97 and unleaded-99 (99% goodstuff). I've heard BMW Longlife 01 wasn't up to the job when they went to synthetic and extended life. That's why ther'e BMW Longlife04 now. Also - here's a thought - everytime I start the car I lose 25 miles off my service interval. Assuming I start the car twice every day, ove a year thats 15,000 miles. FYI I'm actually driving 30 miles to work each day, 60m round trip but it's mainly cruising at 80. Ahem I mean 70.mph (At least one benefit to the UK) SNIP FYI I'm actually driving 30 miles to work each day, 60m round trip but it's mainly cruising at 80. Ahem I mean 70.mph (At least one benefit to the UK) With all the photo-radars in th UK? Generally, you can cruise around 80 in most of the US if the trucks and the left-lane nazi's don't clog things up. R / John > Also - here's a thought - everytime I start the car I lose 25 miles > off my service interval. Interesting. I guess the service calculator on your car is more complex than on mine. In my case, it only takes into account the amount of fuel burned. > Assuming I start the car twice every day, ove > a year thats 15,000 miles. So usually, how many miles can you go before the service light comes on? Pete > Check the actual spec of that oil. Mobil 1 isn't just one oil. And there's > more to an oil than the viscosity rating. I prefer using Pennzoil and have it on both my cars. Works great in the cold, harsh climate of Norway. My cars regularly see temperatures below -20C during winter... Oil is not where you want to save those pennies. My 2 cents worth. SignatureLighthouses are more helpful than churches. -- Benjamin Franklin >> $100 for an oil change???? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >right, depending on who does the labor. My local indy shop charges >$86/hour. My dealer charges $130/hour. Welcome to the world of BMW. Eight quarts of synthetic. That's crazy. On the E28, which has a pain-in-the-neck canister placement and needs a special tool to easily get the canister out from the top without burning yourself (a wooden rod with a loop of rope on it), I can do the full oil change in 15 minutes, including time to get the ramps out of the garage. Even on the 2002, it doesn't take me half an hour to do a full oil change including greasing all the fittings. But it's true, I'm not dumping eight quarts of synthetic in each time. >I change my own oil on my 530i, but between actually changing the oil, >buying new oil and returning the used oil, I probably waste at least an hour [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >other such neusance. So I just prefer to do it myself. At least I have a >peace of mind that it's been done right. I think the last time I had the 2002 done at the dealer, they charged me $38 for it. That was... well... it was some time ago. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > I think the last time I had the 2002 done at the dealer, they charged me > $38 for it. That was... well... it was some time ago. How come I have never seen your 2002? My first BMW was a brand new 2002Tii in 1972. Bob >> I think the last time I had the 2002 done at the dealer, they charged me >> $38 for it. That was... well... it was some time ago. > >How come I have never seen your 2002? My first BMW was a brand >new 2002Tii in 1972. It sits under cover pretty much all the time these days, and Mike says he'll kill me if I ask him to work on it because it's older than he is. However, it's not spouting oil like the E28 is... I am right now trying to figure out if I can get the oil pan off the E28 without pulling the engine completely. It appears to be easier to change the transmission on the E28 than the oil pan gasket. Incidentally, I failed to get Mike's driver's seat to match the originals.... the upholstery shop wouldn't touch it and suggested I dye it myself... I got the job very even, but it's noticeably less red than the other seats in the car. I've been hitting the other seats with neatsfoot oil in hopes of darkening them up a bit. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >Personally, I also prefer more frequent changes (but not every 3k!), so > >I have what BMW terms an "Interim" change once in between each > >scheduled service. If you decide to go that route and have a dealer > >do it, be sure and request an "Interim Oil/Filter Change" (roughly > >$100) rather than an "Oil Service" for $250. > $100 for an oil change???? What do you get for $250? I hope it includes > dinner and movie at least. BMW dealers in the UK charge 12 gbp a litre for the BMW spec oil. So that's well over $100 for the materials alone. But it makes absolutely no sense to pay top dollar for a long life oil then change it early. If you really must do 3,000 mile oil changes stick to a good quality dino or semi-synthetic. To the spec BMW used before they increased the service intervals. Signature*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Jake There are lots and lots and lots of opinions. Most of them are half baked at best. I get the oil in my 325 every 7500 miles. Since my car sees mostly local driving, I believe that it pays to be cautious. And, the suggestion is every 15000 miles for my car. Yes, oil changes are more expensive than they were once upon a time. Synthetic oil is not cheap, nor are filters, nor are workers. Jim A guy I used to work with ran a really old 80's 318 (not even a 318i If I remember) He used to change the oil twice a year and up until a couple of years ago when i left work his car I admit sounded just like a sowing machine - really smooth better than my (then) nearly new 325 convertible |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.