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Car Forum / BMW Cars / November 2007Why are most 3 series autos? More on transmissions
My Toyota has 180K miles on it and the transmission is good as new (auto). I'm sorry to beat a dead horse. I just can't understand why BMW in SOME of their cars used an inferior POS GM transmission which breaks down on a lot of people after a few years. At least on late 90s early 2000s 3 series. Maybe it's better now, they smartened up and redesigned the thing or changed their supplier. I'll just buy a manual I figure, but there aren't many manuals out there. I would guess 90% are autos, at least where I live. I mean a transmission (auto) should last pretty much forever, I'd think. At least 250K miles. there are too many autos because: Most sheeple buy autos because they are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to shift Manual owners KNOW what to buy and tend to keep them longer or forever, so there are less available. > My Toyota has 180K miles on it and the transmission is good as new > (auto). [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I mean a transmission (auto) should last pretty much forever, I'd > think. At least 250K miles.  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > there are too many autos because: > Most sheeple buy autos because they are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well I'm waiting for someone to tell me that "Oh, yes, BMW saw the error of their ways and no longer uses that GM POS transmission. In the 2003 series and later it's MUCH better. So fear not." I've googled it but can't seem to find out if they changed it up by the later model years. Fear not, I am picking up a '02 325xiT Steptronic with 115k miles. I have no fear... but the first thing I am doing is flushing ALL the fluids. >> there are too many autos because: >> Most sheeple buy autos because they are lazy or too clumsy to learn how [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > I've googled it but can't seem to find out if they changed it up by > the later model years. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Fear not, I am picking up a '02 325xiT Steptronic with 115k miles. > I have no fear... but the first thing I am doing is flushing ALL the fluids. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > - Show quoted text - ARen't you afraid the trannie will be some GM piece of junk that will fail soon? > there are too many autos because: Most sheeple buy autos because they > are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to shift Many buy autos because of heavy town traffic. > Manual owners KNOW what to buy and tend to keep them longer or forever, > so there are less available. If there are less made of a particular model of course they'll be rarer secondhand. Basic maths. What is this snobbery about manuals? In the UK most learn to drive on one so it's not a question of learning how to. But most BMWs sold here - especially the larger ones - are autos. And these sell for a premium secondhand. The days when there was a big difference between manual and auto in performance and economy have gone. With autos narrowing the gap with each new development. Signature*When it rains, why don't sheep shrink? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> there are too many autos because: Most sheeple buy autos because they >> are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to shift [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > especially the larger ones - are autos. And these sell for a premium > secondhand. On smaller cars most are manuals, so the autos are rarer and attract a premium. On the larger cars a manual shift is more of a pain to use (heavy clutch, large angular momentum due to V8 and big flywheel (less on i6's)) and in 99% of situations there is a surplus of torque and power, so you don't need the manual to maximise what is put on the road. Sure a big manual is a pleasure to drive on unrestricted A roads (A7, A148, A9 etc.) and easy on the motorway, but they are hard work to drive across London even for me (6'8"). > The days when there was a big difference between manual and auto in > performance and economy have gone. With autos narrowing the gap with each > new development. Well actually autos are probably ahead. Big beemers now have 6 speed auto, the mph/kmph in top is higher than a manual, the economy is better and the cruise control works better. > > What is this snobbery about manuals? In the UK most learn to drive on > > one so it's not a question of learning how to. But most BMWs sold here > > - especially the larger ones - are autos. And these sell for a premium > > secondhand. > On smaller cars most are manuals, so the autos are rarer and attract a > premium. Maybe, but the same applies to most larger cars where the majority are auto these days. If you look at 5 Series prices in the UK manuals of the same spec fetch considerably less secondhand. > On the larger cars a manual shift is more of a pain to use (heavy > clutch, large angular momentum due to V8 and big flywheel (less on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > A9 etc.) and easy on the motorway, but they are hard work to drive > across London even for me (6'8"). > > The days when there was a big difference between manual and auto in > > performance and economy have gone. With autos narrowing the gap with > > each new development. > Well actually autos are probably ahead. Big beemers now have 6 speed > auto, the mph/kmph in top is higher than a manual, the economy is > better and the cruise control works better. There's still an economy penalty in stop start traffic though. Probably the drag of the torque convertor when idling. Signature*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> > What is this snobbery about manuals? In the UK most learn to drive on >> > one so it's not a question of learning how to. But most BMWs sold here [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > auto these days. If you look at 5 Series prices in the UK manuals of the > same spec fetch considerably less secondhand. Where the auto is an option it is very costly and this is reflected in the SH price. By contrast the difference in small Fords is much less and used to be negative, even though an auto cost more when new. >> Well actually autos are probably ahead. Big beemers now have 6 speed >> auto, the mph/kmph in top is higher than a manual, the economy is >> better and the cruise control works better. > > There's still an economy penalty in stop start traffic though. Probably > the drag of the torque convertor when idling. Soon to be eliminated as well - I think Merc' already can completely disengage when stationary. > > Maybe, but the same applies to most larger cars where the majority are > > auto these days. If you look at 5 Series prices in the UK manuals of > > the same spec fetch considerably less secondhand. > Where the auto is an option it is very costly and this is reflected in > the SH price. Only because they are a 'must have' in this class of car. Other expensive options add little to the re-sell value. Signature*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>> What is this snobbery about manuals? In the UK most learn to drive on >>>> one so it's not a question of learning how to. But most BMWs sold here [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Soon to be eliminated as well - I think Merc' already can completely > disengage when stationary. I believe the most efficient drive system is CVT which is usually paired up with a servo clutch, but people just don't like them so the designer's have ended up making them less efficient by stepping up the ratios. Also still immature in terms of reliability. What you really need is an electric drive, clutches are only really a requirement for IC engines. There might be a small requirement for gear changing but that can be sychronised electronically. -- Tony >>> there are too many autos because: Most sheeple buy autos because they >>> are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to shift [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > the mph/kmph in top is higher than a manual, the economy is better and the > cruise control works better. I've never seen a "beemer" with an auto. >> Well actually autos are probably ahead. Big beemers now have 6 speed >> auto, the mph/kmph in top is higher than a manual, the economy is better >> and the cruise control works better. >> > I've never seen a "beemer" with an auto. Since the biggest beemer (the LT) now has an electric centerstand, it wouldn't surprise me to see an auto on it in the not so distant future! Tom K. >> there are too many autos because: Most sheeple buy autos because they >> are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to shift [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > especially the larger ones - are autos. And these sell for a premium > secondhand. I get the impression that in the US, and to a lesser extent in the UK, that it is considered macho to drive a manual, and that autos are for those who can't really drive. Which is a load of nonsense of course. Mike. Yes ofcourse Its a macho thing, I've even heard women say they are not in "control" of the car If they drive an automatic. I am happy to admit I've only once in my life balanced the car in a slide - It was on a large ice covered car park that had a tree in the middle IO could go around - it was sort of fun to change the cornering angle by the throttle - However If anyone tried to do that on a regular basis on the road they should be banned (The wimmin line was post ironic - OK?) Some may disagree BUT I've thought that as most new cars are only bought for a couple of years or by Companies then BMW (just like all the others) look at how to keep the cost down. If this means fitting "sealed for life" items or not changing the oil as often as needed to ensure your car lasts 300k (or your 320D turbos to last for more than 50k :) ) then so be it > Yes ofcourse Its a macho thing, I've even heard women say they are not > in "control" of the car If they drive an automatic. Then whoever needs to learn how to drive it. Signature*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>> there are too many autos because: Most sheeple buy autos because they >>> are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to shift [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Which is a load of nonsense of course. > Mike. Not nonsense. Just because you use an auto does not mean that you cannot really drive. But if you cannot really drive, you are almost certainly using an auto. >>>> there are too many autos because: Most sheeple buy autos because they >>>> are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to shift [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > really drive. But if you cannot really drive, you are almost certainly > using an auto. I know that and you know that. I just didn't express myself very well. My comment was really aimed at those who appear to believe that real men drive manuals, and only wimps drive automatics. :-) My daily driver is an automatic because IMO it makes more sense in towns and increasingly so on todays frequently congested roads, but up until a few months ago I had a manual Toyota Celica GT4 turbo as a fun or weekend car. Manual or automatic I'm equally at home with either, but a manual can be a real PITA if you're caught in a slow moving traffic jam for a few miles, which are quite frequent in the UK. Mike. I did 60 minutes of bumper to bumper today... YES, it sucked. But, I would not buy an auto just because of that, but that is me. In my 540 auto, I was riding the brakes to keep from moving, now I just ride the clutch to keep on moving! I would drive a 5 or 7 series auto, and have, but in a 3, I prefer the fun and "sure thing" in the trouble free tranny department of a manual. >>>>> there are too many autos because: Most sheeple buy autos because they >>>>> are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to shift [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > miles, which are quite frequent in the UK. > Mike. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I did 60 minutes of bumper to bumper today... YES, it sucked. But, I > would not buy an auto just because of that, but that is me. In my 540 > auto, I was riding the brakes to keep from moving, now I just ride the > clutch to keep on moving! I would drive a 5 or 7 series auto, and have, > but in a 3, I prefer the fun and "sure thing" in the trouble free > tranny department of a manual. Never heard of clutches wearing out? Synchromesh failing? Signature*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> I did 60 minutes of bumper to bumper today... YES, it sucked. But, I >> would not buy an auto just because of that, but that is me. In my 540 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Never heard of clutches wearing out? Synchromesh failing? My thoughts exactly. Riding the clutch is a quick and sure way to ensure it's early demise. Mike. >I did 60 minutes of bumper to bumper today... YES, it sucked. >But, I would not buy an auto just because of that, but that is me. >In my 540 auto, I was riding the brakes to keep from moving, now I just ride >the clutch to keep on moving! Dude, your last statement just proves you have no clue how to drive a manual shift. Riding the clutch is the worst thing to do. You should never have your foot on the clutch, except to shift gears. If you "ride the clutch" you are either blonder then blonde, or you just don't care about your car. >I would drive a 5 or 7 series auto, and have, but in a 3, I prefer the fun >and "sure thing" in the trouble free tranny department of a manual. How many clutches have you had replaced so far. With your "driving style" it must be quite an expensive habit. anything apart from a basic 318/320 without an auto will be difficult to sell. its what punters want NOT what BMW want to sell Sorry , I did not mean "ride" in the literal sense. It was more a comparison between auto/manual... brakes/clutch - you have to press on one when in traffic. I have never "ridden" my clutch as you interpreted. I have had 8 manual cars, 3 of which BMW, never, ever replaced a clutch, ever. Old, new, e30, e28, e46. No "burnt clutch smell" comes out of my cars, even at the track. I actually totally agree with what you said, it just doesn't apply to me ;) Thanks for your input, but if you read what I have written, you'll notice that I am not the douchweasle in this thread! >>I did 60 minutes of bumper to bumper today... YES, it sucked. >>But, I would not buy an auto just because of that, but that is me. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > How many clutches have you had replaced so far. With your "driving > style" it must be quite an expensive habit. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >Sorry , I did not mean "ride" in the literal sense. It was more a comparison >between auto/manual... brakes/clutch - you have to press on one when in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Thanks for your input, but if you read what I have written, you'll notice >that I am not the douchweasle in this thread! 10-4 ;-) I loved my manuals, but I got two steptronics now. I guess I'm getting old and lazy lol Seriously, I would never had bought an auto BMW, but after test driving my first one (e-46 xi), I was amazed how smooth and agile it was. I was raised on manual shifts, but I don't think it makes a big difference anymore (unless you do a lot of track driving/racing like it sounds you might be doing). Especially in the city traffic I face every day. But even when I am out in the country side, my steptronic suits me just fine. Especially in sports mode. I don't use the manual mode, and neither does the missus in her e91-328xiT By the way, she's a petite, and would love to get back into a manual tranny, but she can't reach the clutch good enough when she's in these inline six bimmers. There's to much legroom in these and even with the seat all the way up to the wheel, she can reach it but not comfortably to completely engage the clutch. If she had a manual 3-series inline six, she would ruin a clutch in no time. That's the main reason really why we both picked the steptronic. > > In article <4744d941$0$26085$88260...@free.teranews.com>, Bubbles > > <Bubbbbbb...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > it is considered macho to drive a manual, and that autos are for those who > can't really drive. You hear that a lot from the junveniles in this ng who drive the $3000 bummers. > Which is a load of nonsense of course. Silly youngster talk is all it is. > there are too many autos because: > Most sheeple buy autos because they are lazy or too clumsy to learn how to > shift Where do you get this crap? Most people buy autos because they less trouble to drive. And no one thinks of putting a manual in a luxury car, for good reason. > Manual owners KNOW what to buy and tend to keep them longer or forever, so > there are less available. Chuckle > My Toyota has 180K miles on it and the transmission is good as new > (auto). I had a cheap Mazda GLC for ten years, and put 135k miles on it before I sold it, still running like a top. The ONLY time I ever had even a hint of a problem with the auto trans was the morning we set an all-time record low temp here in Atlanta, -8 F. That morning the little trans was hesitant shifting on my initial drive-off, but after warm-up, it was its usual steady self. > I'm sorry to beat a dead horse. > > I just can't understand why BMW in SOME of their cars used an inferior > POS GM transmission which breaks down on a lot of people after a few > years. It's really easy to understand, actually. They did it to increase profits, i.e. cheat customers. > I would guess 90% are autos, at least where I live. One of my cars is a manual, but I got an auto in the Bummer because my wife just doesn't do manual well, plus, the Bummer I have just wouldn't seem right with a manual. > I mean a transmission (auto) should last pretty much forever, I'd > think. At least 250K miles. Complicated yes, but auto trannies were perfected long ago. The only reason they fail now is cheap manufacture/design, or abuse of course. It's ironinc that Americans wrote the book on auto trannies, but American car makers are known for producing shitty ones now. > On Nov 21, 9:03 pm, kpb <kennykab...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Complicated yes, but auto trannies were perfected long ago. The > only reason they fail now is cheap manufacture/design, or abuse of > course. > It's ironinc that Americans wrote the book on auto trannies, but > American car makers are known for producing shitty ones now. The GM autos that failed in BMWs were designed and built in France. FloydR > > On Nov 21, 9:03 pm, kpb <kennykab...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Complicated yes, but auto trannies were perfected long ago. The > > only reason they fail now is cheap manufacture/design, or abuse of > > course. > > It's ironinc that Americans wrote the book on auto trannies, but > > American car makers are known for producing shitty ones now. > The GM autos that failed in BMWs were designed and built in France. So GM have more than one design centre for autos? Weird. Anyone know just why they chose to fit the inferior 4 speed GM transmission for the US while the rest of the world got the 5 speed ZF? If it were made in the US - like the battery - it would make some sense as local content. But made in France? Signature*Why is the word abbreviation so long? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> The GM autos that failed in BMWs were designed and built in France. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If it were made in the US - like the battery - it would make some sense as >local content. But made in France? It appeared to me that the model with the most complaints on the Web page cited was the 2000 323i, which has a 5-speed GM, or a ZF if made after March of 2000. Does ZF=Steptronic in this context? > It appeared to me that the model with the most complaints on the Web > page cited was the 2000 323i, which has a 5-speed GM, or a ZF if made > after March of 2000. > Does ZF=Steptronic in this context? IIRC, both GM and ZF boxes had the Steptronic system - it's merely a slightly different control mechanism and shouldn't make any difference to the life of the basic box. Signature*Why is the word abbreviation so long? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Why are most 3 series autos? I don't understand your surprise. You're in the US, right? Majority of transmissions here are automatic, and that goes for any car/truck/suv, not just the 3-series. That is just what an average American prefers. Pete >> Why are most 3 series autos? > >I don't understand your surprise. You're in the US, right? Majority of >transmissions here are automatic, and that goes for any car/truck/suv, not >just the 3-series. That is just what an average American prefers. I was talking recently to my local BMW dealer, and when I asked he thought for a moment and guessed that between 5% and 10% of the new cars they currently sell are true manual transmissions. SignatureDan. |
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