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Car Forum / BMW Cars / February 2008

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Bimmer auto trans. still bummers?

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kpb - 02 Feb 2008 01:39 GMT
A while back someone posted about the 2000 323i auto transmission
being junk.  Apparently this is well known.

There was some debate about the 2003-2005 series E46 auto trannies.

Are they also junk?  Or are they OK (as in will they last 200K+ miles
if they have the fluid changed every 50K or so).

He was under the impression that bimmers were really "bummers".  The
regulars here became quite infuriated at this comment of his.

Anyway, does anyone know?  Are bimmer trannies still bummers?
Choam Nomsky - 02 Feb 2008 02:09 GMT
you again???
sigh.

>A while back someone posted about the 2000 323i auto transmission
> being junk.  Apparently this is well known.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Anyway, does anyone know?  Are bimmer trannies still bummers?

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Pete - 02 Feb 2008 05:52 GMT
>A while back someone posted about the 2000 323i auto transmission
> being junk.  Apparently this is well known.

It is also well known by now that you're a douchebag that has nothing better
to do but slam bmw.  It's OK, we get it.  You will obviously never buy a
bmw.  Give it a rest.  We don't care.  No one here claims that bmw is the
most reliable car in the world, and if you're looking for such car, bmw is
not for you.

Pete
E Brown - 02 Feb 2008 08:28 GMT
>A while back someone posted
[snip]

    "Someone." That's hilarious.
    epbrown
--  
How can you know where I'm at if you haven't been where I been?
Can you see where I'm coming from? "How I Could Just Kill A Man" Cypress Hill
kpb - 02 Feb 2008 16:48 GMT
> >A while back someone posted
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> How can you know where I'm at if you haven't been where I been?
> Can you see where I'm coming from? "How I Could Just Kill A Man" Cypress Hill

Yes, "someone".

Not me, as I have no experience with 323s at all.

I was wondering if any new information came about since its been
months since I've been here.

I haven't heard anything about the 325i or 330i which I am STILL
considering.

So I might very well buy a BMW.  Although I am off put by the
defensiveness of some of the posters here.

And the paranoid-ness.

I had posted questions here for a few weeks before some guy wrote
about the "bmw is a bummer" and gave as a reason his failed
transmission.  If my trannie failed so soon, I would be pissed too.

I asked him a couple questions and questions to the group about the
trannie issue.  Some some brilliant poster here (you?, it probably was
a worm like you) stated that we (the 'bummer' poster and me) must be
the same person since we were both interested in trannie issues.  Nice
logic!  I had never mentioned the issue of its 'bummer' trannies until
he gave his history with them.

Anyway, I guess there is nothing new.  I am still interested in a
BMW.  The ones owned by my friends haven't failed yet.  Althoug they
are still in the warranty period.

You have to wonder about a make with owners so paranoid about its
reliability and posters asking questions about such.
Choam Nomsky - 02 Feb 2008 17:36 GMT
In case you haven't caught on... we find YOU to be an a.s... so get lost-
with or without your bummer.

On Feb 2, 3:28 am, E Brown <three19...@att.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:39:28 -0800 (PST), kpb <kennykab...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "Someone." That's hilarious.
> epbrown

Yes, "someone".

Not me, as I have no experience with 323s at all.

I was wondering if any new information came about since its been
months since I've been here.

I haven't heard anything about the 325i or 330i which I am STILL
considering.

So I might very well buy a BMW.  Although I am off put by the
defensiveness of some of the posters here.

And the paranoid-ness.

I had posted questions here for a few weeks before some guy wrote
about the "bmw is a bummer" and gave as a reason his failed
transmission.  If my trannie failed so soon, I would be pissed too.

I asked him a couple questions and questions to the group about the
trannie issue.  Some some brilliant poster here (you?, it probably was
a worm like you) stated that we (the 'bummer' poster and me) must be
the same person since we were both interested in trannie issues.  Nice
logic!  I had never mentioned the issue of its 'bummer' trannies until
he gave his history with them.

Anyway, I guess there is nothing new.  I am still interested in a
BMW.  The ones owned by my friends haven't failed yet.  Althoug they
are still in the warranty period.

You have to wonder about a make with owners so paranoid about its
reliability and posters asking questions about such.

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Dave Plowman (News) - 02 Feb 2008 18:18 GMT
In article
<37968036-3353-41b8-a8a8-4e533b2036f4@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> I asked him a couple questions and questions to the group about the
> trannie issue.  Some some brilliant poster here (you?, it probably was
> a worm like you) stated that we (the 'bummer' poster and me) must be
> the same person since we were both interested in trannie issues.  Nice
> logic!  I had never mentioned the issue of its 'bummer' trannies until
> he gave his history with them.

Put a search on Ebay for the transmission in question. See what they fetch
secondhand. If the prices are sky high you'll have your answer. In the UK
there's little demand for secondhand ZF autos so they just fetch what
you'd expect.

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*People want trepanners like they want a hole in the head*

   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Michael Yeager - 03 Feb 2008 00:34 GMT
>In article
><37968036-3353-41b8-a8a8-4e533b2036f4@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>there's little demand for secondhand ZF autos so they just fetch what
>you'd expect.

 Well, the ZF 4HP22 in my 89 325i has failed once in the 4 years I
have had it (mind you it's OLD) but the one I took out of it had been
previously remanufactured. Don't know what the previous owners might
have done to it or how well they took care of it but my guess would be
it was neglected like most trannies are. Not too many people actually
change the fluid, most forget to check it. I beat the hell out of it
and wasn't surprised when the torque converter gave out. The rest of
the tranny was fine (it was checked out before I put it back in). I
know that GM had a problem with some of thier trannies and these might
be the ones that found their way to the BMW line. Those problems were
repairable and the repair replaced the weak parts...
Jack - 03 Feb 2008 01:09 GMT
I would concur with that conclusion that it takes about three automatic
transmissions to last as long as one manual.

Definiitely not the choice of people who intend to keep their cars for the
duration.

>>In article
>><37968036-3353-41b8-a8a8-4e533b2036f4@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> be the ones that found their way to the BMW line. Those problems were
> repairable and the repair replaced the weak parts...
Dave Plowman (News) - 04 Feb 2008 18:59 GMT
> I would concur with that conclusion that it takes about three automatic
> transmissions to last as long as one manual.

> Definiitely not the choice of people who intend to keep their cars for
> the duration.

How many clutches will that manual transmission have had and how many
hydraulic failures? And will the synchro on that manual still be perfect?

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   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

E Brown - 03 Feb 2008 09:13 GMT
>Not me, as I have no experience with 323s at all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>So I might very well buy a BMW.  Although I am off put by the
>defensiveness of some of the posters here.

    We're not so much paranoid as impatient with your stupidity. *You*
seem to be the paranoid one. I mean, why post this again? Do you think
there's secretly a huge group of people with failed automatics who
only speak of them when you're not around and you hope to catch them
out? There's been no epidemic of failed autos since your last foray
here, no significant influx of new E46 owners, no change in the
status.
    Instead, why not check somewhere else? Anywhere else? EVERYWHERE
else? The one thing people on the net like to do is complain, so even
the most cursory research should turn up reams of information if this
were a real issue. Or have the Gamma people initiated a cover-up?
    Second, perhaps your methodology of checking ONE place over and
over again is typical since  - according to you - you were all set to
buy an E46 3-series when you read ONE post from ONE - ahem, "other" -
PERSON saying that his transmission failed after blah years and
unsubstantiated maintenance driven who-knows-how poorly and you
decided that ONE instance was enough to write off the entire model run
and forestall your purchase.
    The answer now is the same as before: if you're worried about the
devastating possibility that the auto trans *might* fail, DON'T BUY
ONE. You don't like this group? DON'T POST HERE.
    But you might want to avoid walking as well. I saw someone last
week walking on crutches, turns out he'd broken his leg! I had no idea
legs were prone to these sort of failures, I find the  situation
*completely* unacceptable, and I'm currently researching the
manufacturer or designer of legs to discuss this shoddy workmanship.
My own legs have given me no trouble so far (indeed, I've completed
several marathons with them) but the idea that they're breakable has
really put me off the entire product line.
    I've read that in Scandinavia they're working on replacement parts
made from rather nice wooden blocks. You appear to be using their
"head" replacement unit - how did you find the service?  
    epbrown
--  
How can you know where I'm at if you haven't been where I been?
Can you see where I'm coming from? "How I Could Just Kill A Man" Cypress Hill
Scott Dorsey - 02 Feb 2008 21:21 GMT
>A while back someone posted about the 2000 323i auto transmission
>being junk.  Apparently this is well known.

All automatic transmissions are junk.  Why would someone spend all the
money for a performance car and then put an automatic transmission in it?
Learn to shift and you'll be a lot happier.
--scott
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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

TPr - 03 Feb 2008 01:22 GMT
The mans dead right - Although with the amount of driving I do, a manual is
out of the question.

Normal road car automatics of any kind are inherently a pissweak design by
nature and cannot handle the continued and relentless abuse a decent manual
box can.

Autos and semi autos built specifically for race cars are another story all
together.
R. Mark Clayton - 03 Feb 2008 13:03 GMT
>>A while back someone posted about the 2000 323i auto transmission
>>being junk.  Apparently this is well known.

Some BMW's sold in the US for some reason have inferior and unreliable US
boxes.

> All automatic transmissions are junk.  Why would someone spend all the
> money for a performance car and then put an automatic transmission in it?
> Learn to shift and you'll be a lot happier.

Driving around town - I don't think so.

Being very tall I drive 7 series.

I had two manuals in the 1980's* and they were great, however manuals were
hardly made after 1988 (a few in the 735iL) and seemingly not at all since
~1994, although you can still get them in 6 series.

The three more recent ones have had respectively

4 speed auto
5 speed switchable
5 speed steptronic

The last is comparable with a manual, although I still drive it in auto, but
it is clever and for instance holds gear for a bit after overtaking or
similar.  Even if I didn't have to drive a lot in traffic, I doubt I would
go back to manual, and as thee next one I get will probably be a diesel, the
6 speed steptronic is almost essential.

> --scott

* before that I had two manual Rover 3500SD1's and a Triumph 2.5TC with
overdrive, so I liked a manual box.  OTOH the choice between the five speed
manual (with overdriven 5th) and [crap] three speed GM auto in the 3500SD1
was a no brainer!
Scott Dorsey - 03 Feb 2008 15:59 GMT
>5 speed steptronic
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>go back to manual, and as thee next one I get will probably be a diesel, the
>6 speed steptronic is almost essential.

See, I find the Steptronic very annoying.  I _cannot_ get a smooth start
off the line with the Steptronic or SMG no matter how carefully I do it.
In some ways it feels like it has the worst of both worlds.
--scott
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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

R. Mark Clayton - 03 Feb 2008 17:08 GMT
>>5 speed steptronic
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> off the line with the Steptronic or SMG no matter how carefully I do it.
> In some ways it feels like it has the worst of both worlds.

Then you have a fault.  No problem with mine.

There were teething problems with early ZF six speeds - look up.

> --scott
Scott Dorsey - 04 Feb 2008 16:31 GMT
>>>5 speed steptronic
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>There were teething problems with early ZF six speeds - look up.

No, I have driven a bunch of the newer ones.  I really wanted to like
it... it seems like a great trade-off, adding electronic complexity to
reduce mechanical complexity.  But it just doesn't feel right to me.
--scott

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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

admin - 04 Feb 2008 17:20 GMT
>>>> 5 speed steptronic
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> reduce mechanical complexity.  But it just doesn't feel right to me.
> --scott

You're confusing two different things.

SMG is a manual transmission that is controlled by hydraulics that are
controlled by electronics. The base transmission used in SMG I, II and
III is a standard BMW manual transmission. They use the same clutch as
the manual transmission. All that's different is a machine is moving
things around instead of you (and there are automatic modes - which
don't work really well..)

Steptronic is simply advanced electronic control of a standard automatic
transmission - complete with torque converters and multiple clutches.
It's a nice automatic.

BIG difference. Steptronic should be no harsher than any automatic on
takeoff. SMG - takes learning to drive smoothly - you still have to
modulate the throttle to make shifts and clutch engagements smooth.

BMW is introducing a dual-clutch SMG in the new E92/M3 - to catch up
with Audi and everyone else. This will not require the finesse that the
current SMG incarnation does to drive smoothly since it will be a
purpose built system - meant to be an automatic manual transmission.
Dean Dark - 04 Feb 2008 17:30 GMT
>BMW is introducing a dual-clutch SMG in the new E92/M3 - to catch up
>with Audi and everyone else. This will not require the finesse that the
>current SMG incarnation does to drive smoothly since it will be a
>purpose built system - meant to be an automatic manual transmission.

Paging Dave Plowman, paging Dave Plowman.  Dave Plowman to the white
courtesy phone, please...
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Dan.

Dave Plowman (News) - 04 Feb 2008 19:07 GMT
> >BMW is introducing a dual-clutch SMG in the new E92/M3 - to catch up
> >with Audi and everyone else. This will not require the finesse that the
> >current SMG incarnation does to drive smoothly since it will be a
> >purpose built system - meant to be an automatic manual transmission.

> Paging Dave Plowman, paging Dave Plowman.  Dave Plowman to the white
> courtesy phone, please...

Heh heh. An excellent description.

Although there's no intrinsic reason why the twin clutch system should
give a smoother pull away - merely smoother changes under most
circumstances.

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   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
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Dave Plowman (News) - 04 Feb 2008 19:04 GMT
> >5 speed steptronic
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >traffic, I doubt I would go back to manual, and as thee next one I get
> >will probably be a diesel, the 6 speed steptronic is almost essential.

> See, I find the Steptronic very annoying.  I _cannot_ get a smooth start
> off the line with the Steptronic or SMG no matter how carefully I do it.
> In some ways it feels like it has the worst of both worlds. --scott

Eh? Steptronic is a conventional slush pump auto and uses the torque
convertor to start from rest in exactly the same way as any auto -
therefore with as smooth a start. SMG transmissions use a servo operated
dry clutch and at least some can be jerky.

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   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
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Scott Dorsey - 04 Feb 2008 19:55 GMT
>Eh? Steptronic is a conventional slush pump auto and uses the torque
>convertor to start from rest in exactly the same way as any auto -
>therefore with as smooth a start. SMG transmissions use a servo operated
>dry clutch and at least some can be jerky.

Indeed you are correct.  I was thinking of SMG and the Mercedes equivalent
whose name I am blocking on but which is NOT Steptronic.
--scott

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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Dave Plowman (News) - 04 Feb 2008 23:47 GMT
> >Eh? Steptronic is a conventional slush pump auto and uses the torque
> >convertor to start from rest in exactly the same way as any auto -
> >therefore with as smooth a start. SMG transmissions use a servo
> >operated dry clutch and at least some can be jerky.

> Indeed you are correct.  I was thinking of SMG and the Mercedes
> equivalent whose name I am blocking on but which is NOT Steptronic.

I've not tried a M-B synchromesh auto so can't comment but agree the
couple of BMW SMGs I have tried were rough changing autos. Perhaps by
design. But the Audi twin clutch/layshaft ones I've driven are not bad at
all and are likely to further improve. The forthcoming BMW one will be
good too I'm sure. My main concern with this type of transmission is the
horrendous repair costs if and when needed. And that of course there are
similar vast improvements being made with 'conventional' autos too. So the
'race' is nowhere near won. The engineer in me dislikes the idea of a
servo operated synchromesh box in principle - while that same part in me
enjoys the skill in handling a true manual gearchange well.

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   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
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admin - 04 Feb 2008 17:14 GMT
> Some BMW's sold in the US for some reason have inferior and unreliable US
> boxes.

Ummm... not. They are made by GM - but GM in France, not the US and they
aren't a US design.  And GM is noted for one thing - knowing how to make
automatic transmissions..
 
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