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Car Forum / BMW Cars / March 2008Why do other drivers feel inferior to a BMW driver?
Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. I'll Trink to dat ! > Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. > > I'll Trink to dat ! Not a particularly inventive troll. Graham >> Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Graham Probably drives a FORD and wishes it was a BMW  SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:40:05 +0000, hsg wrote: >>> Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > Probably drives a FORD and wishes it was a BMW I've owned some pretty outstanding Fords in my life... I'm guessing a Yugo. Signature"Remain calm, we're here to protect you!" Or he owns a BMW in need of costly repairs and wishes he had a Toyota that needed none. Sorry. - nopcbs >>> Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Probably drives a FORD and wishes it was a BMW M3 Fan typed: > Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. > > I'll Trink to dat ! You forgot your pills again ......... SignatureDogpoop Stand by me. http://www.glass-uk.org/ >Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. > >I'll Trink to dat ! Just don't do it while you're driving one! > Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. I don't think that I would go quite that far, but when I first had a BMW I noticed immediately the extra looks that it attracted from both other motorists and pedestrians alike. After years of driving Fords I now get people regularly commenting admiringly about my car when I arrive to meet them - very strange. > Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. > > I'll Trink to dat ! I suspect those individuals behind the wheel of Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Astons, Porsches, etc pay monstrously large fees to their psychologists as they attempt to deal with their inferiority complexes. R / John >> Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Astons, Porsches, etc pay monstrously large fees to their psychologists > as they attempt to deal with their inferiority complexes. I actually thought about the (more than occasionally accurate) perception that BMW drivers all seem to be arrogant, self-deluded pricks before I made the decision to buy one. I came to the conclusion that it probably wasn't the car that made these people like this but the people like this that gave the car the reputation. ...and it may be because a lot of salesmen drive BWMs. I bought my BMW because I liked it and it makes me feel good... not because I thought it would make other people feel bad. Sounds like the OP might be suffering from tiny genitals compensation syndrome. Signature"Remain calm, we're here to protect you!" >I bought my BMW because I liked it and it makes me feel good... not >because I thought it would make other people feel bad. The E46 is just the perfect car for me. I don't like any of the new cars as much. They're all getting too big. What are the options for a sub-3500-pound RWD sedan? The E90 is close, but still larger than what I'd prefer... >I actually thought about the (more than occasionally accurate) perception >that BMW drivers all seem to be arrogant, self-deluded pricks before I >made the decision to buy one. I came to the conclusion that it probably >wasn't the car that made these people like this but the people like this >that gave the car the reputation. exactly my sentiments. I also find the cars bad boy reputation helps get space on the road, now its 4 years old they probably think I'm a drugs dealer :-) SignatureMike Remove clothing to email >>I actually thought about the (more than occasionally accurate) perception >>that BMW drivers all seem to be arrogant, self-deluded pricks before I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >get space on the road, now its 4 years old they probably think I'm a >drugs dealer :-) Driving a 30-year-old one doesn't make people think you are a drug dealer, but they DO wave at you out of nowhere. I kind of like that. It makes me feel better about the constant gabo replacement and the new fluid leaks that seem to appear as soon as I track down the last one... --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >"M3 Fan" <YeahBaby@MaM3rulZ.net> wrote in message >> Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Astons, Porsches, etc pay monstrously large fees to their psychologists as >they attempt to deal with their inferiority complexes. More likely they pay it to their mechanic, instead of their psychologists. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >>"M3 Fan" <YeahBaby@MaM3rulZ.net> wrote in message >>> Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > More likely they pay it to their mechanic, instead of their > psychologists. ...because a BMW is so cheap to maintain. Signature"Remain calm, we're here to protect you!" >>>"M3 Fan" <YeahBaby@MaM3rulZ.net> wrote in message >>>> Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> More likely they pay it to their mechanic, instead of their >> psychologists. If you think BMW's maintenance costs are high, you've been denied exposure to some REAL costs of ownership. You can buy a nice, low miles, previously owned Ferrari ten years old and spend ten thousand or more just attending to those things to make it right. OTOH, it costs little more to fully restore a 63 GTO (market value around $10M) than it does to attend to a similar vintage 250 GTE (high five figures at best), if the level of restoration is similar. R / John >If you think BMW's maintenance costs are high Mine was a succession of lease cars till a year or so ago, I took it to BMW once and although I cancelled 3/4 of the things they wanted to do, mostly utterly ridiculous things like replacing all the door seals, it still came to £1200, I should have really said, stop, I'll take the car away. I take it to Hyundai main dealer now. Its put me off buying another, I fancy the Alfa GT. SignatureMike Remove clothing to email >Mine was a succession of lease cars till a year or so ago, I took it >to BMW once .... Its put me off buying another, I fancy the Alfa GT. Wait a minute -- you're concerned about BMW maintenance costs, so now you're considering an Alfa? That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard in my entire life! 8;) -- Larry (previous owner of five Alfas...) >>>>"M3 Fan" <YeahBaby@MaM3rulZ.net> wrote in message >>>>> Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > miles, previously owned Ferrari ten years old and spend ten thousand or > more just attending to those things to make it right. Of that I have no doubt, but compared to a BMW a Ferrari is an exotic. Signature"Remain calm, we're here to protect you!" > I suspect those individuals behind the wheel of Ferraris, Lamborghinis, > Astons, Porsches, etc pay monstrously large fees to their psychologists as > they attempt to deal with their inferiority complexes. > > R / John Are you suggesting that from a performance and drivability of a bimmer is anywhere close to that of a Ferrari or a Porsche? thats a serious lack of education there.... they arent even close. Thats akin to comparing your M3 to a Chevy Cobalt... seriously... bimmers are great cars, but they dont run with the super car crowd on any level. >> I suspect those individuals behind the wheel of Ferraris, Lamborghinis, >> Astons, Porsches, etc pay monstrously large fees to their psychologists as [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >comparing your M3 to a Chevy Cobalt... seriously... bimmers are great >cars, but they dont run with the super car crowd on any level. Do people actually buy a DAEWOO with a GM-CHEVY badge on and think it is really a Chevy? SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > Are you suggesting that from a performance and drivability of a bimmer > is anywhere close to that of a Ferrari or a Porsche? thats a serious > lack of education there.... they arent even close. Thats akin to > comparing your M3 to a Chevy Cobalt... seriously... bimmers are great > cars, but they dont run with the super car crowd on any level. Depends on which bimmer you're comparing to which Ferrari or Porsche. Most Porsche are not super cars, and if you look I'm sure you can find some BMWs that outperform some Ferrari models. Okay, can you fish out an example? Cause Im thinking you could put an older testarossa up against a current year M3 or M5 and maybe beat the ferrari on handling. But on a car for car comparison there is none, You could possibly run a Dinan stage3 M5 up against a 911 gt3 RS. But to put it up against something like a Ferrari or lotus, lamborghini etc... is just ridiculous. This reminds me of the kind of conversations that go on in a civic forum where the Civic guy says that his civic is just as good as any bimmer, only reason to buy a bimmer is cause you are compensating. it doesnt make any sense. Im not trolling here, just asking that the anti-exotic comments are looked at for how ridiculous they are. > Depends on which bimmer you're comparing to which Ferrari > or Porsche. Most Porsche are not super cars, and if you look > I'm sure you can find some BMWs that outperform some > Ferrari models. > Okay, can you fish out an example? Ever heard of an M1? -- C.R. Krieger > > Okay, can you fish out an example? > > Ever heard of an M1? > -- > C.R. Krieger really... youre going to put that against the porsches and ferraris of the same day? M1: Base Price: $41,000 Capacity: 3453cc Power: 277hp @ 6500rpm Torque: 243lb @ 5000rpm Weight: 3175lb Max Speed: 162mph Acceleration: 0-100kmh(62mph) in 5.6sec 1978-79 930 Turbo Base Price: $65,000 0-60 mph 4.9 Seconds (Road & Track) Top Speed 165 mph (Road & Track) Max Horsepower: 265 @ 5500 rpms Max Torque: 290 ft-lb @ 4000 rpms Weight: 2867 lbs Engine Displacement: 3299 cc Transmission: 4 speed manual 1984 Testarossa Year: 1984 Make: Ferrari Model: Testarossa Base Price: $87,000 USD Top Speed: 12.2 MPH / 19.6 KPH ¼ mile: 13.6 Seconds Lat. Acceleration: 0.87 G 0 - 60 MPH: 5.3 Seconds 0 - 100 MPH: 12.2 Seconds Gas Mileage: City: 10 MPG / Hwy: 15 MPG Position: Longitudinal Mid Engine Configuration: 180 Degree V12 Valvetrain: DOHC 4 Valves/Cyl Displacement: 301.5 CI / 4942 CC Power: 390.0 BHP / 290.8 KW @ 5750 RPM Torque: 354.0 FT LBS / 480 NM @ 4500 RPM 1982 Lamborghini Countach price $118 000 USD engine V12 valvetrain DOHC 2 Valves / Cyl displacement 4754 cc / 290.1 cu in bore 85.5 mm / 3.37 in stroke 69.0 mm / 2.72 in compression 9.2:1 power 279.6 kw / 374.9 bhp @ 7000 rpm torque 409.5 nm / 302.0 ft lbs @ 4500 rpm drive wheels Mid Engine / RWD top speed 300.0 kph / 186.4 mph 0 - 60 mph 5.6 seconds 1980 Lotus Esprit Essex 210bhp @ 6250rpm, 200lb ft @ 4500rpm. Dry-sump lubrication 150mph top speed (appx) 0-60mph 5.6secs Production: 34 (+11 development cars). So pretty much the M1 could possibly run with the lambo, at least up to 150... and it could hang neck and neck with the esprit. So again, like I said before, I love the bimmers, but comparing them to the supercars is unfair and saying that the guy that drives a ferrari has a little dick is a ludicrous statement, if you had the $$ you would drive the ferrari or another supercar... but having the $$ is a whole different issue. :) "Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com> wrote in message news:0b5b9201-4ac7-41ed-bdb2- ......if you had the $$ you would drive the ferrari or another supercar... but having the $$ is a whole different issue. :) If I had the $$ I would drive a Bentley. (but would probably get sick of it and have a BMW as a daily driver.) > "Corey Shuman" <cshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If I had the $$ I would drive a Bentley. (but would probably get sick of it > and have a BMW as a daily driver.) so have you driven a bentley and a ferrari to make the comparison? a bentley from what Ive heard is just lux. no "feel of driving". the ferrari on the other hand, is a lot harder to drive around town.. its a good if you live in the country with long winding roads... although uncomfortable if you are driving around for more than an hour or so. Ive driven a 308 and spent about 15 min behind the wheel of an Enzo, and they are amazing... its not about anything but pure performance, the way your stomach sinks into the seat when you drop the clutch and hit second is a feeling unlike anything else. So really? a bentley, then why the bimmer over a merc? Merc is more lux and less drive, where the bimmer is more drive and feel with the lux on top. > > > Okay, can you fish out an example? > > > Ever heard of an M1? > really... youre going to put that against the porsches and ferraris of > the same day? I guess so. Read on ... > M1: > Base Price: $41,000 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > So pretty much the M1 could possibly run with the lambo, at least up > to 150... and it could hang neck and neck with the esprit. Let's lop off most of the extraneous information (although noting a significant weight differential against the BMW might matter to some) and take another look at your figures. For starters, not one of the cars for which you listed a price retailed for less than *50% more* than the M1, so in terms of 'bang for the buck' it is the clear winner. Only the Porsche is more than a half second quicker to 60 mph while the only other one to beat it at all (the TR) has 3-4 years more technology development time. The M1's top speed is right in the middle of that pack, too. So I guess I must be missing your point. BMW built a perfectly competent supercar when they tried. They no longer try. > So again, like I said before, I love the bimmers, but comparing them > to the supercars is unfair and saying that the guy that drives a > ferrari has a little dick is a ludicrous statement, if you had the $$ > you would drive the ferrari or another supercar... Frankly, no, I wouldn't. While I don't have the money to drive a current super exotic, I certainly *do* have the money to drive something other than the 21-year-old BMW 535is I have as my 'summer' car. I drive it because I like it and because, with it, and my training and experience, I can pretty much outdrive almost everyone else on the road, horsepower or not. With more cash, it might get a turbo ... or with a *whole lot* more cash, a 3.0CSL or a 507 as a stablemate. Maybe even an M1 ... ;^) -- C.R. Krieger > Got to admit it BMW's are the best cars around. > > I'll Trink to dat ! Why do other drivers feel inferior to a BMW driver? We don't. It's BMW drivers who think they are superior. Other drivers, however, know different. MBQ >It's BMW drivers who think they are superior. > >Other drivers, however, know different. Nah, BMW drivers, like Millwall fans, dont care. Other drivers warble on constantly about BMW drivers. SignatureMike Remove clothing to email > >It's BMW drivers who think they are superior. > > > >Other drivers, however, know different. > > Nah, BMW drivers, like Millwall fans, dont care. Other drivers warble > on constantly about BMW drivers. Most of the BMW drivers we used to talk about can't afford them now, and drive Passats and Golfs. SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com >>It's BMW drivers who think they are superior. >> >>Other drivers, however, know different. > >Nah, BMW drivers, like Millwall fans, dont care. Other drivers warble >on constantly about BMW drivers. Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so dull-witted and uncaring... 8) >>Nah, BMW drivers, like Millwall fans, dont care. Other drivers warble >>on constantly about BMW drivers. > >Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD >crap. Yeah, I always really wanted a lumbering fake offroader, mind you BMW make one! SignatureMike Remove clothing to email Mike... (Mike... <mikesclothing@freedomnames.co.uk>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >>>Nah, BMW drivers, like Millwall fans, dont care. Other drivers warble >>>on constantly about BMW drivers. >>Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD >>crap. > Yeah, I always really wanted a lumbering fake offroader, mind you BMW > make one! Three. One's just a bit less lumbering than the second, whilst the third wants to be a coupe on stilts. Oh, and they're all lobbed together by redneck 'merkins. >Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD >crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so >dull-witted and uncaring... 8) BMW, sadly, is now making FWD crap as well, too. I'd buy a Mini in an instant if it had proper RWD and if I could get the sport option without having to give up the spare tire. The Mini is actually a fun car and close to the traditional BMW feel. But the FWD and the thought of having to drop that transaxle someday keeps me away. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >>Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD >>crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >to drop that transaxle someday keeps me away. >--scott Well, I don't think FWD is bad in small cars with small motors... or in cars that have no sporting pretensions... >>Well, I don't think FWD is bad in small cars with small motors... or >>in cars that have no sporting pretensions... I used to have a small hatch with RWD - great fun! Drive it like you are rallying it! >>>Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD >>>crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Well, I don't think FWD is bad in small cars with small motors... or in > cars that have no sporting pretensions... I've been driving FWD for the last ten years since I moved to Wisconsin because everyone said they were so much better in snow. Now that I'm in a RWD again I'll never go back. It's so much more natural and controllable to have the rear end go out from under you than to have the front end corkscrew into a corner. Signature"Remain calm, we're here to protect you!" > >>>Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD > >>>crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Great fun on snow-covered cloverleafs! > >Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD > >crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to drop that transaxle someday keeps me away. > --scott But a Mini has never been RWD..... If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. We won't laugh. Much. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # > If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. > > We won't laugh. Much. The BMW 1-series for people who really, really miss the Chevette. Steve Firth (%steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >> If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. >> >> We won't laugh. Much. > The BMW 1-series for people who really, really miss the Chevette. <ouch> > Steve Firth (%steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)) gurgled happily, sounding > much like they were saying: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > <ouch> I'm not wrong though, am I? They even look similar. >> Steve Firth (%steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)) gurgled happily, sounding >> much like they were saying: >> >>>> If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. >>>> >>>> We won't laugh. Much. It is the only RWD hatch of that size though, so if you did want that... >>> The BMW 1-series for people who really, really miss the Chevette. >> <ouch> I don't often snigger at usenet, but that gave me a giggle. > I'm not wrong though, am I? They even look similar. I had a 1 as a hire car. It was good in some ways: the engineering was good, the fit and finish good, and the handling good too- it was the first RWD car I've driven since learning in a MK2 escort more than 20 years ago. However: Economy was lousy (2.0 Petrol auto, got about 28mpg on average, where my A3 would have done about 50), performance not brilliant, and the slushbox was annoying on the motorway (too keen to change down). I was glad to get my A3 back at the time: faster, much more economical, more comfortable (the 1's seats gave me backache). I suspect I'd have liked the 1 more with the optional sports seats, a diesel engine (or free fuel!), and a manual box- then the only problem would be the rear seat space, but then again, I don't use the rear seats much. > Economy was lousy (2.0 Petrol auto, got about 28mpg on average, where my > A3 would have done about 50), performance not brilliant, and the > slushbox was annoying on the motorway (too keen to change down). I was > glad to get my A3 back at the time: faster, much more economical, more > comfortable (the 1's seats gave me backache). Which A3 do you have? One of my current temptations is the 3 door 2.0TDI-170 Sport with flappy paddles. > I suspect I'd have liked the 1 more with the optional sports seats, a > diesel engine (or free fuel!), and a manual box- then the only problem > would be the rear seat space, but then again, I don't use the rear seats > much. That's another option for me - well, kind of, I could have a 120d ES with SMG (the BMW flappy paddle thing). But they look so stupid, it doesn't matter how well they drive. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> Economy was lousy (2.0 Petrol auto, got about 28mpg on average, where my >> A3 would have done about 50), performance not brilliant, and the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Which A3 do you have? None, any more. I had a 1999 TDI 110. Currently I've got a Fabia vRS, which is nice. Not as plush, but for the money it's a good car. Economical, fast enough, handles OK (bearing in mind it's a VAG FWD Diesel hatch!). The A3 was nice. I know that 'it's just a Golf 4 you pay too much for', but I really liked it, and beyond servicing & a cambelt change it probably only cost a few hundred quid in repairs for 50k miles- and did 48-50 mpg pretty much all the time. > One of my current temptations is the 3 door 2.0TDI-170 Sport with flappy > paddles. If I had the money or a company car allowance, I'd be there- well there or Golf V. I want a DSG or auto car really- my left leg starts aching in heavy traffic, and the Fabia's clutch is by no means heavy. Problem is, I need diesel for the economy, and I need a smallish car as my drive is short. That limits the choice, and really I just want to stay with VAG, because I'm a fanboi. >> I suspect I'd have liked the 1 more with the optional sports seats, a >> diesel engine (or free fuel!), and a manual box- then the only problem [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > But they look so stupid, it doesn't matter how well they drive. I'm not keen on the styling, or the attitude of some people to a BMW on the road, but I wouldn't say they looked stupid. Just a bit over-styled. Chris Bartram (Chris Bartram <news@delete.me.piglet-net.net>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: > Economy was lousy (2.0 Petrol auto, got about 28mpg on average, where my > A3 would have done about 50) Compare apples with apples. There's no way a 2.0 petrol auto A3 would average 50mpg. Not a chance. > Chris Bartram (Chris Bartram <news@delete.me.piglet-net.net>) gurgled > happily, sounding much like they were saying: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Compare apples with apples. There's no way a 2.0 petrol auto A3 would > average 50mpg. Not a chance. You're right, of course, but my point was the A3 was quicker *and* more economical. A colleauge has a manual diesel 1 series, and loves it, and reports it does 45-47 mpg. I'd like to try one to see what I thought, and I'd also like to try petrol/diesel A3s with DSG. Like I said elsewhere in the thread, I think a BMW 1 with a diesel engine, better seats (the standard ones were not supportive) and (maybe) a manual would be much better for me. The problem with the 120 was I didn't see much past 28 mpg even in gentle driving. I wasn't expecting high 40s, but it would have been nice to see 35mpg or more. We went on holiday from the midlands to the Scottish highlands in it, and the fuel consumption was noticeable- we did a similar journey in the Fabia vRS recently, and despite maintaining a higher avrage speed, didn't have to stop for fuel this side of Glasgow, like we did in the 120. The slushbox, like I said, was far too keen to shift down. I ended up using the manual shift quite a lot. > > Chris Bartram (Chris Bartram <news@delete.me.piglet-net.net>) gurgled > > happily, sounding much like they were saying: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Glasgow, like we did in the 120. The slushbox, like I said, was far too > keen to shift down. I ended up using the manual shift quite a lot. I went to look at a 120d today. It made my Alfa 75 look like a luxury barge. So, it's back to the A3, then. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # > I went to look at a 120d today. > > It made my Alfa 75 look like a luxury barge. > > So, it's back to the A3, then. Did you drive it? > > I went to look at a 120d today. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Did you drive it? No. I'm trying to narrow down the options before booking full weekend tests with the lease company. Sitting in one and playing with stuff for 5 minutes was enough to convince me that I couldn't live with one for the next 3 years / 100k miles. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >>I had a 1 as a hire car. It was good in some ways: the engineering was >>good, the fit and finish good, and the handling good too- it was the first >>RWD car I've driven since learning in a MK2 escort more than 20 years ago. I have driven 5 wrong wheel drive cars in last 18 years three hire (one was dire, another swapped after a couple of miles as it was too small for the third), a courtesy car with half an engine (3 cylinder Corsa - well it is half isn't it?), and a car my boss owned. In the same period I have owned 6 RWD. >The BMW 1-series for people who really, really miss the Chevette. I may be the only person posting to AAB who ever owned both a Chevette and a Vega GT (or my wife did -- I had Alfa Duettos and a Fiat 124 Spider). And you know what? They weren't that bad, compared to cars of the time. Especially my bro-in-law's Pinto. -- Larry pltrgyst (pltrgyst <pltrgyst@spamlessxhost.org>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >>The BMW 1-series for people who really, really miss the Chevette. > I may be the only person posting to AAB who ever owned both a Chevette > and a Vega GT (or my wife did -- I had Alfa Duettos and a Fiat 124 > Spider). And you know what? They weren't that bad, compared to cars of > the time. Especially my bro-in-law's Pinto. You know what? Your (Chevy) Chevette was completely different to ours (Vauxhall). Ours was a piece of crap. Oh, wait, maybe yours wasn't that different after all. >>> We won't laugh. Much. >> >>The BMW 1-series for people who really, really miss the Chevette. Arghh! the Shoveit All engine ancilaries on the same side on noddy version - difficult to work on, and only one decent engine. I prefered the Chrysler equivalent, easier to work on and two fun engines. >>> Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD >>> crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > We won't laugh. Much. Or a used 318i. Dan >If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. Well, price is up to the buyer. But apart from that, the 1-series is 350 lbs. lighter, faster, and better handling than an equivalent 3-series, all of which sound like plusses to me. I don't care about giving up rear seat room. -- Larry >>If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. > >Well, price is up to the buyer. But apart from that, the 1-series is 350 lbs. >lighter, faster, and better handling than an equivalent 3-series, all of which >sound like plusses to me. I don't care about giving up rear seat room. 128i (manual) is 3252 lbs. http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2008/1/128iCoupe/Features_and_Sp ecs/128iCoupeSpecifications.aspx 328i (manual) is 3340 lbs. http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2008/3/328iSedan/Features_and_Sp ecs/328iSedanSpecifications.aspx 3340 - 3252 = 88 lbs, not 350 lbs. Looks like there's not much reason for the 1 to be "faster and better handling" than the 3. > 128i (manual) is 3252 lbs. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Looks like there's not much reason for the 1 to be "faster and better > handling" than the 3. But for those of us who like open air motoring, the 128i cabrio is 294 lbs. lighter than the 328i "retractable" - a significant difference! Tom K. >Looks like there's not much reason for the 1 to be "faster and better >handling" than the 3. Take it up with Car & Driver, not me. -- Larry SteveH (steve@italiancar.co.uk (SteveH)) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: > If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. Or a Merc CLC... > We won't laugh. Much. Bollocks we won't. > SteveH (steve@italiancar.co.uk (SteveH)) gurgled happily, sounding much > like they were saying: > > > If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. > > Or a Merc CLC... To be fair, at least the CLC has decent sized rear seats and a proper sized boot. Neither of which the 1-series has. Mostly because the CLC is quite a large car in comparison. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # SteveH (steve@italiancar.co.uk (SteveH)) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >> > If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. >> Or a Merc CLC... > To be fair, at least the CLC has decent sized rear seats and a proper > sized boot. Neither of which the 1-series has. Mostly because the CLC is > quite a large car in comparison. Steve, you owe it to yourself to stop living this lie. Come out of the closet. Denial is not cool. > SteveH (steve@italiancar.co.uk (SteveH)) gurgled happily, sounding much > like they were saying: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Steve, you owe it to yourself to stop living this lie. Come out of the > closet. Denial is not cool. Heh. Yes, I know it's a bit (OK, a lot) 'hairdresser' and it's camper than Butlins, but.... it ticks most of the boxes that I'm looking for - lots of kit, 140bhp-ish diesel and slushomatic box. As in a proper slushomatic box. All the alternative diesels with self-shifters are flappy paddle jobs. And the new A4 may not be available with flappy paddle and the 2lt diesel until next year. Which doesn't leave me with too many options, given that I *need* an automatic diesel on account of my rather mashed up knees. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # SteveH (steve@italiancar.co.uk (SteveH)) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >> >> > If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW >> >> > 1-series. >> >> Or a Merc CLC... >> > To be fair, at least the CLC has decent sized rear seats and a proper >> > sized boot. Neither of which the 1-series has. Mostly because the CLC >> > is quite a large car in comparison. >> Steve, you owe it to yourself to stop living this lie. Come out of the >> closet. Denial is not cool. > Heh. Yes, it's a bit (OK, a lot) 'hairdresser' and it's camper > than Butlins.... it ticks most of the boxes that I'm looking for See, it was easy. Congratulations. >But a Mini has never been RWD..... > >If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. > >We won't laugh. Much. That's getting even farther away from it. I don't expect to be replacing my 2002 any time soon. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > We won't laugh. Much. I wonder how much the directory service paid BMW for one particular model, all I ever see is, 118, 118, 118, 118. SignatureCarl Robson Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com >>If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. >> >>We won't laugh. Much. If I was in the market for a new smaller car a 1 series would be in the running - well it is RWD!! > >>If you want a silly, over-priced, RWD hatchback, buy a BMW 1-series. > >> > >>We won't laugh. Much. > > If I was in the market for a new smaller car a 1 series would be in the > running - well it is RWD!! I wouldn't bother. Seriously under-specced, unless you splash out the extra £2k for an SE version, with materials and built quality that would make Citroen blush. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> If I was in the market for a new smaller car a 1 series would be in the >> running - well it is RWD!! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Seriously under-specced, unless you splash out the extra £2k for an SE >version, with materials and built quality that would make Citroen blush. Care to expand on your "built quality" allegation? What's so bad about it? > >> If I was in the market for a new smaller car a 1 series would be in the > >> running - well it is RWD!! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Care to expand on your "built quality" allegation? What's so bad > about it? Ooops, typo. 'Build quality'. It was shocking - lots of brittle, hard plastics, cheap fabric on the seats, door cards and head lining that visibly flex with very little pressure. Even simple stuff like the air-con and heating controls were made from cheap, airfix-quality plastics. In summary, I've been in better quality Hyundis. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # > >Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD > >crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so > >dull-witted and uncaring... 8) > > BMW, sadly, is now making FWD crap as well, too. I'd buy a Mini in an > instant if it had proper RWD If it was a proper Mini it wouldn't have RWD anyway! SignatureHalmyre That's you that is. Halmyre (Halmyre <no.spam@this.address>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >> BMW, sadly, is now making FWD crap as well, too. I'd buy a Mini in an >> instant if it had proper RWD > If it was a proper Mini it wouldn't have RWD anyway! If it was a proper Mini, it'd _be_ "mini"... > Halmyre (Halmyre <no.spam@this.address>) gurgled happily, sounding much > like they were saying: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > If it was a proper Mini, it'd _be_ "mini"... ISTR one of the 'proper' Mini engineers commenting when he saw the "new" Mini "If we'd wanted to make it that big, the job would have been easy." > Halmyre (Halmyre <no.spam@this.address>) gurgled happily, sounding much > like they were saying: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > If it was a proper Mini, it'd _be_ "mini"... And it'd rust, leak and rattle, but still be cool. >> If it was a proper Mini it wouldn't have RWD anyway! >> >If it was a proper Mini, it'd _be_ "mini"... They are huge, a Maxi Mini. > Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD > crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so > dull-witted and uncaring... Uh huh. So why is a Mondeo 2.0 faster than a BMW 320 around the same track? And, come to that, why does the Mondeo handle better than the 320? > > Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD > > crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > track? And, come to that, why does the Mondeo handle better than the > 320? Oooh, I know the answer to this one. It's because BMW haven't made a decent car since the E30/E34/E32 ranges were replaced..... SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD >> crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > track? And, come to that, why does the Mondeo handle better than the > 320? Because the 320 is a piece of junk designed to appeal to morons who can't look past the badge? (One of the blokes who works for me bought one and sold it shortly thereafter because he thought it was dangerously slow - he said joining a motorway was a struggle.) Signature"Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain and presumptuous desire for a second one." [email me at huge {at} huge (dot) org <dot> uk] > >> Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD > >> crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Because the 320 is a piece of junk designed to appeal to morons who can't look > past the badge? I suspect that's the right answer. Using hire cars relatively often I see the bad side of "prestige" marques quite often. The droid behind the countr hands over keys and says "we've upgraded your car" and my heart sinks. I think the low point was the BMW 520d, which was approximately as shite as the Daewoo Matiz. Neither car had enough power to join the motorway safely and neither of them could maintain 130km/h when crossing the Apenines. My big, lardy, Ford does the journey without even droppin out of overdrive the 520 had to ascend hills in second gear. When I went to visit a neighbour I had to change down to first to climb the road leading to his house. The Audi A4 estate thing I was given was better as far as power to weight goes, but as an estate goes it was a stupid, badly designed farce. I also object to cars where the designer thinks "ooh black is so kewl let's make it all black inside". > (One of the blokes who works for me bought one and sold it shortly thereafter > because he thought it was dangerously slow - he said joining a motorway was a > struggle.) I agree with him, and putting a small engine into the 5-series is real insanity. > The Audi A4 estate thing I was given was better as far as power to > weight goes, but as an estate goes it was a stupid, badly designed > farce. I also object to cars where the designer thinks "ooh black is so > kewl let's make it all black inside". That's not the fault of the designer That's the fault of the fuckwit ticking the trim boxes. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # > > The Audi A4 estate thing I was given was better as far as power to > > weight goes, but as an estate goes it was a stupid, badly designed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That's the fault of the fuckwit ticking the trim boxes. It's not the person ticking trim boxes that makes every single switch, control and indicator light be black by default. Same school of design as Braun. "Let's make a little black box", OK is that a razor, clock, recorder, camera? "Who cares? Black is good." > > > The Audi A4 estate thing I was given was better as far as power to > > > weight goes, but as an estate goes it was a stupid, badly designed [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > as Braun. "Let's make a little black box", OK is that a razor, clock, > recorder, camera? "Who cares? Black is good." Personally, I prefer it that way. It's much better than the current thinking that coating everything in 1980s boom-box silver is 'cool'. Especially when combined with blue tinted and bevelled perspex, which just makes the interior look like the cheap hi-fi shelf in Currys. Yes, Toyota, I'm particularly thinking of you.... SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >>> That's the fault of the fuckwit ticking the trim boxes. >> It's not the person ticking trim boxes that makes every single switch, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Yes, Toyota, I'm particularly thinking of you.... I've never understood complaining about black and/or dark interiors. 'Gloomy' is the usual word used. I like dark, understated interiors too. Can't be doing with the silver, or wood panels, come to that. > >>> That's the fault of the fuckwit ticking the trim boxes. > >> It's not the person ticking trim boxes that makes every single switch, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 'Gloomy' is the usual word used. I like dark, understated interiors too. > Can't be doing with the silver, or wood panels, come to that. Someone I worked with had a Supra. It was known o everyone else as "the Black Hole of Calcutta" because it was decorated inside only in soot-black. No other colour visible anywhere from the passenger seat. Even the windows were dark tints. >>>>> That's the fault of the fuckwit ticking the trim boxes. >>>> It's not the person ticking trim boxes that makes every single switch, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > soot-black. No other colour visible anywhere from the passenger seat. > Even the windows were dark tints. The first car that made me conscious of this effect was a Ford Capri, which, with the somewhat restricted headroom in the back, made it feel quite claustrophobic. Best wishes all, Dave. >>>> That's the fault of the fuckwit ticking the trim boxes. >>> It's not the person ticking trim boxes that makes every single switch, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 'Gloomy' is the usual word used. I like dark, understated interiors too. > Can't be doing with the silver, or wood panels, come to that. I must admit I don't like dark/black interiors, and gloomy is a term I've used to describe them. They do appear to have been fashionable for quite a while now, but lighter and brighter colours seem more appealing, to me at any rate. I wonder what difference the various interior treatments have on drivers' general feelings and moods etc., and hence their attitude and behaviour at the wheel. Best wishes all, Dave. > > I've never understood complaining about black and/or dark interiors. > > 'Gloomy' is the usual word used. I like dark, understated interiors too. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > drivers' general feelings and moods etc., and hence their attitude and > behaviour at the wheel. I'm not a fan of silver tat, which unfortunately the Passat has (mind you, it's a fake turned aluminium stuff, not spray on boom-box silver) - I definitely prefer the darker colours. However, the easiest way for a manufacturer to give the interior a lift, when they've fitted a black dash, seats and carpets, is to use a light grey headlining - which is something VAG appear to do these days. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >>I suspect that's the right answer. Using hire cars relatively often I >>see the bad side of "prestige" marques quite often. The droid behind the >>countr hands over keys and says "we've upgraded your car" and my heart >>sinks. I think the low point was the BMW 520d, which was approximately >>as shite as the Daewoo Matiz. Stupid car - two cylinders missing. > sinks. I think the low point was the BMW 520d, which was approximately > as shite as the Daewoo Matiz. Eh? Sounds more like a pathological hatred of BMWs to me. I think it's called trolling. > > sinks. I think the low point was the BMW 520d, which was approximately > > as shite as the Daewoo Matiz. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sounds more like a pathological hatred of BMWs to me. I think it's > called trolling. Since you snipped the explanation that both the Matiz and the BMW were unable to manage a straightforward run up the motorway because both had puny engines I can see how you might, just be able to convince people as feeble-minded as yourself that it was trolling. And before you start yammering, the motorway was the A24 in Italy. You should try it some day. It's a very good test of ability of a car to sustain long, incredibly long, uphill runs. >> Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD >> crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so >> dull-witted and uncaring... > >Uh huh. So why is a Mondeo 2.0 faster than a BMW 320 around the same >track? Let me guess. You picked the best FWD and pitted it against the worst BMW? >And, come to that, why does the Mondeo handle better than the 320? Who says that it does? > >> Maybe we BMW drivers secretly envy the drivers of, for example, FWD > >> crap. All that money that could be saved, if only we were so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Let me guess. You picked the best FWD and pitted it against the worst > BMW? A 320 is the BMW that almost every twerp who rants about their BMW actually owns. > >And, come to that, why does the Mondeo handle better than the 320? > > Who says that it does? Anyone who has ever driven both of them. >> Let me guess. You picked the best FWD and pitted it against the worst >> BMW? > >A 320 is the BMW that almost every twerp who rants about their BMW >actually owns. See, BMW no longer even tries to sell 4-bangers in the US - we're too smart for that. (Just ignore that we elected W as our president. Twice! 8) > See, BMW no longer even tries to sell 4-bangers in the US - we're too > smart for that. Hmm, if you were *that* smart you wouldn't make the cars you do make. Or at least you would learn how to get 100bhp/litre or better from a car and how to o steering and what dampers on the suspension are for. OTOH I drive mom's shopping trolley, a Ford Explorer, and it's worked well for me. Gets me to the farm up the farm track and covers drives of 1000 miles+ with less fuss and bother than any of the 4-pot Euroboxen can manage. OTOH the XJR could get me across Europe in a day and when I got out I felt no worse than if I had driven down the road to pick up the shopping. Sadly Les Flics have put paid to crossing Europe at an average speed of 100mph. >>Uh huh. So why is a Mondeo 2.0 faster than a BMW 320 around the same >>track? And, come to that, why does the Mondeo handle better than the >>320? Stuff that try the Mondeo Sanitory Towel against the M3. I would not have the 2.0 if I was buying a 3 I'd have either if the 3.0 engines. > >>Uh huh. So why is a Mondeo 2.0 faster than a BMW 320 around the same > >>track? And, come to that, why does the Mondeo handle better than the > >>320? > > Stuff that try the Mondeo Sanitory Towel against the M3. That would be silly, the two as far apart in price and performance as to make the comparison pointless. The only M3 I've ever driven left me underwhelmed. Yes it was fast, pointy and squirty and one could have fun on a track letting the arse hang out. But on the road it was a pointless bit of over-priced undercomfortable tat. IMO it was about in the same league as the Audi S8, but not in a good way. In a "f.ck me did someone pay that much to have a car made that's uncomfortable with a really cheap interior feel" sort of way. I'm probably getting old, strike probably I am getting old. But I preferred my XJR to any Beemer I've ever driven. I prefer my 4xFord to any Beemer I've ever driven. I've had to give up expensive toys in order to fund my wife's attempts to start a new business, but when it's over/up and running I'll be heading back to Jags because the few things about them that disappoint don't disappoint as much as the competition. I'd have had an NSX if erindoors had approved it. > I would not have the 2.0 if I was buying a 3 I'd have either if the 3.0 > engines. The BMW 6's are gems of engines, I really like them. I just wish that the rest of car was up to the promise of the steering, handling and engine/transmission. Having interior trim and seats that wouldn't have been out of place in a Sierra is a real disappointment. Even the M3 "leather" feels like vinyl. And the hardboard in the boot is pure Austin-Rover. >I'd have had an NSX if erindoors had approved it. Do it. It's not too late. You won't regret it, I promise. I'm on my second NSX, but don't ask what happened to the first one... > >I'd have had an NSX if erindoors had approved it. > > Do it. It's not too late. You won't regret it, I promise. I'm on my > second NSX, but don't ask what happened to the first one... The erindoors is the insuperable obstacle there. I still shudder when I rememebr the incident when I bought a V12 Daimler without telling her in advance. <wince> She reckons the NSX is a late middle-age posing pouch used to "pull birds". Reminding her that I used to work next door to Ayrton Senna and that it's a homage to him just produces snorts of derision. Steve Firth (%steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: > She reckons the NSX is a late middle-age posing pouch used to "pull > birds". Reminding her that I used to work next door to Ayrton Senna and > that it's a homage to him just produces snorts of derision. "I want to pretend I'm a born-again godder with a huge ego and a thing for auto-erotic self-asphyxiation"... >>> I'd have had an NSX if erindoors had approved it. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > birds". Reminding her that I used to work next door to Ayrton Senna > and that it's a homage to him just produces snorts of derision. So it's not only people on newsgroups who think you're a tosser? |
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