 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / BMW Cars / July 2008e39 2002, should I keep it?
hello, I have a question regarding reliability. I've learned from experience that certain parts in BMW cars just aren't as reliable as japanese or even some american cars. My car has about 65k miles and it's gotten the radiator replaced (after research I saw this is a common problem with these cars), new alternator and pulleys that go with it (also same as radiator), new suspension bushings front and rear (also same as radiator), and a set of new tires. Compared to japanese cars, the tires (and brakes) would be an acceptable item to be replaced but not the rest! So, it seems I need to invest about $5-6k every 50k miles (which is A LOT! compared to other cars - like japanese or american). So, since my extended warranty ends at 100k, would it be considered insane to keep this thing? I'm thinking to sell it ASAP because I know those repairs are coming and the electrical system hasn't given trouble - YET! This is something else ALL german cars are now famous for! Has anyone else seen these things and is anyone else disappointed by the poor quality of these cars now? My independent mechanic says they don't build them like they used to. Mercedes are even worse. I'm thinking of a Honda/Toyota or Lexus. BMW should seriously consider that RELIABILITY is also a luxury!! Thanks, Oskar I drove an E36 for close to 250k miles and it was fine. I replaced it with another E36 that currently shows 130k miles, and it is fine. My kid drives an E46 with more miles than my car, and it is fine. Bring that piece of crap to my house and dump it off, I'll take care of it for you. > hello, > I have a question regarding reliability. I've learned from experience [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Oskar > I have a question regarding reliability. I've learned from experience > that certain parts in BMW cars just aren't as reliable as japanese or > even some american cars. That statement is simply not true. IME, US-built (well, Canada, but that's another discussion) have been far less reliable than my BMWs. Our Toyota cars (and truck) cost just as much to maintain as our BMWs. > My car has about 65k miles and it's gotten the radiator replaced > (after research I saw this is a common problem with these cars), new > alternator and pulleys that go with it (also same as radiator), new > suspension bushings front and rear (also same as radiator), and a set > of new tires. Our '91 525i was just retired due to a wreck, at 200K miles. Original engine still getting 30+ mpg, original CLUTCH - try that on an American car. My '01 330xi has had it's cooling system replaced (as you note, they're weak) and has 125K miles on it. Nothing else has gone wrong. FloydR > I'm thinking of a Honda/Toyota or Lexus. BMW should seriously > consider that RELIABILITY is also a luxury!! > > Thanks, > > Oskar Oskar, That sounds like an excellent idea. And next time I talk to BMW I'll remind them that they lost you to the used Japanese market. I bet that will get their knickers in a bunch. > I have a question regarding reliability. I've learned from experience > that certain parts in BMW cars just aren't as reliable My 2000 528i has 176K on it ... and I had to change the water pump about a year ago ... it only lasted 6 months for the next oil change ... and I got a warrenty change out of it ... had to pay for the labor. If you look at the VIN number and download the history of the car (as it has only had BMW trained mechanics working on it as my bark yard mechanic days are over with this machine) ... there were two items that had to be replaced out of the factory within 50K miles or so. The other stuff is just fine, even the fuel pump (electric) is working great to my ears and experience. I have recently had a Computer gremlin show up with transient electrical faults ... and the car science says that it has to be the ignition switch that is going out .. or my car was sabotaged in the wire loom by the last mechanice who worked the car ... as I have a big mouth about illegal aleins geting their Ramon Salcido on and doing a Selena to people here in the USA. As for the Japanese ... go over to Japan, they all drive Mercedes and BMWs for durability and gas mileage. I say get an electric car like a ZAP ... and use that short hauls around town and the home .. use the gas for long trips. Plan two ... get bio-diesel ... the Europeans again are the best in regards to autos. When I fill up my Ford 3/4 ton ... it is $100 for the biodiesel .. but ALL that money stays in the USA. So far Bubble Boy our Idiot in Charge has not sold off the biodiesel to the Grand Poohbah of DuBuy. Also 1 acre of algee ... will make 170,000 miles of biodiesel fuel or so I hear. sumbuddie on da watchtower :) In article <67c21a22-581f-48ce-b77b-7715b64e0654@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, > hello, > I have a question regarding reliability. I've learned from experience [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > suspension bushings front and rear (also same as radiator), and a set > of new tires. Radiator failure is common on the V-8s, not on the 6 cylinder models. Alternator failure isn't common on either. The suspension bush live depends on many things. Idler pulley life the same. > Compared to japanese cars, the tires (and brakes) would be an > acceptable item to be replaced but not the rest! Well, I've pointed out that not all BMWs are the same and it's doubly so with Japanese cars. They certainly aren't all perfect. > So, it seems I need to invest about $5-6k every 50k miles (which is A > LOT! compared to other cars - like japanese or american). > So, since my extended warranty ends at 100k, would it be considered > insane to keep this thing? You could extend the warranty? > I'm thinking to sell it ASAP because I know those repairs are coming > and the electrical system hasn't given trouble - YET! This is > something else ALL german cars are now famous for! There you go again... > Has anyone else seen these things and is anyone else disappointed by > the poor quality of these cars now? My independent mechanic says they > don't build them like they used to. Mercedes are even worse. And your mechanic knows everything about every car? > I'm thinking of a Honda/Toyota or Lexus. BMW should seriously > consider that RELIABILITY is also a luxury!! Get yourself a nice Honda. You and all those blue rinses can't be wrong.  Signature*I was once a millionaire but my mom gave away my baseball cards Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > hello, > I have a question regarding reliability. I've learned from experience [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > suspension bushings front and rear (also same as radiator), and a set > of new tires. Radiator failure in the 60-90K range is not uncommon on the V-8's. Much less so on the I-6's. The water pump is a weakness and probably should be replaced as a preventive measure prior to 90K (Mike Miller would say 60). Never heard of an alternator going bad so early. Pulley failures are rare below 100K. The E39's have their issues. The cooling system (radiator, water pump) are a weakness, particularly in the V-8's. The instrument cluster and radio MID can loose pixels. The sunroof tilt arms are weak. And of course, there are those darn cupholders. The preventive maintenance on these cars is fairly expensive, especially if you ignore factory recommendations (lifetime fill on differential, manual trans, power steering ... 100K on auto trans) and maintain it like it was going to last 250,000 miles. Other occasional issues arise in the door vapor seals (if the sealant that holds them to the door panel loses its grip, you've got damp footwells). The leather is surface dyed and shows wear prematurely. The I-6's had a rash of bad coils that were replaced under recall/warranty. By comparison, you can buy a Japanese transportation appliance from Toyota/Honda (or their upscale Lexus/Acura) and do little but change fluids and various filters for over 100K. Brakes and tires last, or don't last, as a function of driving style. You can run through a set of PS2's in about 15K in a Corolla, too. If you enjoy driving, the E39 is about the finest all-round sedan you can own. Great vehicle dynamics, comfort and luxury. If you're stuck in gridlock on the 91 Freeway, an Accord with a good sound system might make more sense. R / John > <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > R / John Hi John, Since you seem to be the only one who didn't get all emotional with a knee-jerk response saying bmw is the best I think you're the most reasonable person here! I agree with you regarding the part about enjoying driving. In that regard the bmw is much better than the others. I'm just surprised at how much higher the costs are to maintain the joy! I guess these are cars are a lot like some women I'm sure we've all dealt with, their just high maintenance! (some guys like high maintenance women, some enjoy them until they complain too much and move on.) I like to stick to facts. http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand http://www.consumerreports.org - I'm a member here so I can see the reports, I can't paste here since they use graphics. But if you look at luxury cars, 8 of the top 10 most reliable luxury cars are Japanese! Audi and Lincoln are the other 2. Mercedes and BMW are in the poor catagory! These FACTS along with my experience with the e39 is how I'm coming up with the items I'm discussing. I'm not being emotional and zealous. I just want to see what everyone else thinks in regards to this. I forgot to mention the door seals also went bad (dealer wanted $300 per door to fix the seals!). Things like door seals should NOT be an item you need to change every 60k miles! Neither should radiators, alternators, pulleys and suspension bushings! At 100k I'll accept it if the car was driven hard or it's in harsh climate (cold, snow, salt, etc). That's all I'm saying. Please don't get emotional - use facts :) Oskar On Jul 1, 5:15 pm, "John Carrier" <j...@comcast.net> wrote: > <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > R / John Hi John, Since you seem to be the only one who didn't get all emotional with a knee-jerk response saying bmw is the best I think you're the most reasonable person here! I agree with you regarding the part about enjoying driving. In that regard the bmw is much better than the others. I'm just surprised at how much higher the costs are to maintain the joy! I guess these are cars are a lot like some women I'm sure we've all dealt with, their just high maintenance! (some guys like high maintenance women, some enjoy them until they complain too much and move on.) <JS> I put 150k miles on a '94 3 Series that I bought in '00 with 100k on the clock. The car was totalled against the side of some sort of Buick that turned in front of me entering the Old Folks Neighborhood in my town. I replaced that car with another '94 3 Series convertible, but do not pile on the miles anymore. So, for the sake of discussion, in 8 years I have logged approximately 200k miles combined on two different cars. I have spent about $2000 on normal repairs, clutch, brakes, and odds-n-ends. On the first car, I did a bonehead move that caused an expensive repair, but that was only $2500 or so. So, $4500 in 200k miles is $0.0225 per mile, or about $565.00 per year, or under $50 per month. Take out the repair from the bonehead move on my part, and the car paid me to drive it. I have never in 45 years of driving had a car that cost less to own. And I bought my BMWs as a Used Car, and have no clue what happened to them before I bought them. Go buy a Honda if you want, but don't do it because your BMW costs to much. </JS> I like to stick to facts. http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand http://www.consumerreports.org - I'm a member here so I can see the reports, I can't paste here since they use graphics. But if you look at luxury cars, 8 of the top 10 most reliable luxury cars are Japanese! Audi and Lincoln are the other 2. Mercedes and BMW are in the poor catagory! These FACTS along with my experience with the e39 is how I'm coming up with the items I'm discussing. I'm not being emotional and zealous. I just want to see what everyone else thinks in regards to this. I forgot to mention the door seals also went bad (dealer wanted $300 per door to fix the seals!). Things like door seals should NOT be an item you need to change every 60k miles! Neither should radiators, alternators, pulleys and suspension bushings! At 100k I'll accept it if the car was driven hard or it's in harsh climate (cold, snow, salt, etc). That's all I'm saying. Please don't get emotional - use facts :) Oskar > > I have a question regarding reliability. I've learned from experience > > that certain parts in BMW cars just aren't as reliable as japanese or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >These FACTS along with my experience with the e39 is how I'm coming up >with the items I'm discussing. I'm not being emotional and zealous. There are a couple of things wrong with these statements. First, you say: "I've learned from experience..." That's not a FACT, nor is it valid to draw any conclusions from it. It is anecdotal evidence and immediately suspect (as are all the anecdotes related by we other posters.) You can't have it both ways: you say you believe in facts, but then try to elevate non-evidence to that status. Can't do it. The other problems are your citations. Let's take the jdpower first. The study in that citation is for problems AT THE END OF THREE YEARS. Because correlation and causation aren't the same things, you *CANNOT* say that BMWs are worse *OVER THE LIFE OF THE CAR* than the other manufacturers'. It's probably true that the cars with fewer defects over three years may be better built, but that says almost *NOTHING* about what will happen in the future. There have been many discussions about consumer reports and their rankings. I'm not going to repeat them other to say: Google for them, and to note that the major argument about their validity is that they don't *COMPLETELY* report *ALL* problems, since CR doesn't actually go out and poll *ALL* owners, only the owners that subscribe to CR. Because of that singular fact, their statistics are immediately suspect. FloydR > <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > FloydR Hi Floyd, Please correct me if I'm wrong but your logic is as follows: car has poor reliability for 1st 3 years of ownership, this DOESN'T mean that car will continue to be unreliable. Is this correct? That makes absolutely no sense!! Who in their right mind buys anything that gets all sorts of problems in the 1st 3 years of ownership and then tells themself, it's only the 1st 3 years of ownership - the future will be better! Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. Also, FYI the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10 years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model car you're looking at is reliable? This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots of problems. Also, JD Powers reports go back about 12 years. Lexus is #1 for 12 years in a row if I recall correctly. Oskar On Jul 2, 1:43 am, "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote: > <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > other posters.) You can't have it both ways: you say you believe > in facts, but then try to elevate non-evidence to that status. Can't do it. > The other problems are your citations. Let's take the jdpower first. > The study in that citation is for problems AT THE END OF THREE [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > FloydR Hi Floyd, Please correct me if I'm wrong but your logic is as follows: car has poor reliability for 1st 3 years of ownership, this DOESN'T mean that car will continue to be unreliable. Is this correct? That makes absolutely no sense!! Who in their right mind buys anything that gets all sorts of problems in the 1st 3 years of ownership and then tells themself, it's only the 1st 3 years of ownership - the future will be better! Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. Also, FYI the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10 years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model car you're looking at is reliable? This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots of problems. Also, JD Powers reports go back about 12 years. Lexus is #1 for 12 years in a row if I recall correctly. Oskar Sorry for being off topic. I noticed that some call their cars "E39", etc. In the US, I haven't seen this. Is there some info or a chart that shows how the European and US model names/numbers relate? Many thanks in advance. > Sorry for being off topic. I noticed that some call their cars "E39", > etc. > In the US, I haven't seen this. Is there some info or a chart that > shows how > the European and US model names/numbers relate? Many thanks in > advance. The nomenclature is used in the US as well Here's your chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bmw Go to the bottom of the page and expand the "BMW road car timelines" (click on [show] on the right). Cheers, Pete > Sorry for being off topic. I noticed that some call their cars > "E39", etc. > In the US, I haven't seen this. Is there some info or a chart > that shows how > the European and US model names/numbers relate? Many thanks in > advance. AFAIK the E number is the same for both US and european cars. Basically it's BMW's model designation for different body designs and series. The numbers following also usually refer to the series and engine size. Ie, all E39's are 5 series, and if followed by 5xx, the 5 is the series and the xx refers to the size of it's engine, which may not be it's actual size. The 523i actually has a 2.5 litre engine. Mike. (UK) > Sorry for being off topic. I noticed that some call their cars "E39", > etc. In the US, I haven't seen this. Is there some info or a chart that > shows how the European and US model names/numbers relate? Many thanks in > advance. The 'E' numbers aren't country specific. Here's where to find out what cars they refer to :- http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/bmw.html Signature*I started out with nothing... and I still have most of it. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. Also, FYI >the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10 >years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model >car you're looking at is reliable? >This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots >of problems. If you look at the actual breakdown of problems, you'll find that most of the reported problems with the newer cars are relatively minor, and the vast majority of them have to do with insufficiently-debugged electronic systems. While I am personally very annoyed at BMW for throwing all kinds of useless electronic gewgaws into every model now, and making it impossible to order them (in the US) without all this stuff, I don't think that should necessarily be the most important think you look at when you buy a car. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > While I am personally very annoyed at BMW for throwing all kinds of > useless electronic gewgaws into every model now, and making it > impossible to order them (in the US) without all this stuff, I don't > think that should necessarily be the most important think you look at > when you buy a car. Only thing I don't like on my fully loaded E39 is the rain sensing wipers - because they don't work well. But then neither does any delay wipe system I've had. Dunno if later cars have better sensing. Signature*Vegetarians taste great* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> While I am personally very annoyed at BMW for throwing all kinds of >> useless electronic gewgaws into every model now, and making it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >- because they don't work well. But then neither does any delay wipe >system I've had. Dunno if later cars have better sensing. Dave The ones on my 730d SE (2007) are pretty good but the trick is to run the wipers first then switch to auto they will than adjust their speed accordingly with the amount of rain. they work by diffusion similar to the way cameras auto focus. the daylight is diffused by the rain drops and the amount and quantity determines the frequency of the wipe from manic to .5Hz Hugh PS the auto dipping feature is dammed good too.............. Sir Hugh of Bognor SignatureI used to be an Egotistical Meglomaniac - but now I'm just perfect! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK > Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. Also, FYI > the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10 > years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model > car you're looking at is reliable? > This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots > of problems. One more thing I forgot about CR & JDPower; because they don't differentiate between "bugs" and "features", they have lumped complaints about the usability of iDrive into "electrical" or other problems, which skews things considerably. Yeah, it sucks, but it's not broken. FloydR >One more thing I forgot about CR & JDPower; because they don't >differentiate between "bugs" and "features", they have lumped complaints >about the usability of iDrive into "electrical" or other problems, which >skews things considerably. > >Yeah, it sucks, but it's not broken. It will be after the owner runs the car into a tree while paging through menus trying to figure out how to change the volume on the radio.... --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >> > I like to stick to facts. Oh, BTW, here are some *REAL* facts; the total cost of maintenance for our E34 '91 525i (recently retired after minor traffic accident :-( ): Date Mileage Problem Cost My labor Sep-96 52,447 Brake Light Switch recall $ - Sep-96 52,447 Airbag ring recall $ - Oct-00 99,699 Radiator cap recall $ - Oct-00 99,699 Blowing Fuse $ 100.15 Jan-92 1,200 1200 Mile service $ 37.92 May-92 18,000 Inspection I $ 285.81 Sep-92 22,800 Oil change $ 24.96 Sep-92 22,800 Minor warranty stuff $ - Dec-92 24,717 Minor warranty stuff $ - Nov-93 36,854 Inspection II $ 482.27 Nov-93 36,854 Fuel system recall $ - Nov-93 36,854 Electrical/Ignition recall $ - Apr-95 38,906 Engine miss/Check engine $ 134.71 Jul-95 42,112 DME Recall $ - Jun-97 59,868 Inspection II $ 499.44 Jun-97 60,086 O2 Sensor, Coolant hoses $ 305.26 May-98 70,126 Cruise/throttle cable recall $ - May-98 70,126 Oil change $ 62.93 May-98 70,666 Replace 2 coils $ 297.40 Jul-99 86,164 Replace 4 coils $ 489.94 Nov-99 91,032 Inspection II $ 631.90 Nov-99 91,032 Brake Flush, Belts, Muffler $ 895.78 Jun-00 96,452 CEL, O2 sensor $ 395.05 Aug-01 110,016 Inspection I, fuse, Fan clutch, Brake Flush $ 804.87 Sep-01 111,320 Thermostat $ 53.88 Dec-01 113,190 Heater core, center muffler $ 1,553.48 Feb-99 75,000 Coolant Level Sensor $ 37.03 Yes Jun-02 119,638 Inspection II, brake flush, valve cover gasket $ 1,354.30 Mar-03 127,408 Water pump, thermostat, belts $ 765.22 Oct-03 134,497 Front shocks, ball joints (labor) $ 443.91 Oct-03 134,497 Front shocks, ball joints (parts) $ 500.00 Oct-03 134,497 Rear shocks, ball joints (parts) $ 250.00 Yes Aug-04 140,904 Inspection I, Tests, speedo sensor, Fuel Sending Unit $ 598.29 Jun-05 147,693 CEL, O2 sensor $ 248.86 Dec-05 150,882 Radiator replacement $ 656.19 Apr-06 160,830 Inspection II $ 657.49 Aug-07 186,161 Inspection II $ 762.75 $ 13,329.79 (This doesn't include oil changes every 3-5K miles that I did myself.) As you can see, your conjecture based upon your "facts", that you will have to spend $5,000-$6,000 per year has no basis in real facts. FloydR Let's try that paste again > "Florida NRA SW" <flrr77@hotmail.com> wrote >>> > I like to stick to facts. > > Oh, BTW, here are some *REAL* facts; the total cost of > maintenance for our E34 '91 525i (recently retired after > minor traffic accident :-( ): Date Mileage Problem Cost My labor Sep-96 52,447 Brake Light Switch recall $- Sep-96 52,447 Airbag ring recall $- Oct-00 99,699 Radiator cap recall $- Oct-00 99,699 Blowing Fuse $100.15 Jan-92 1,200 1200 Mile service $37.92 May-92 18,000 Inspection I $285.81 Sep-92 22,800 Oil change $24.96 Sep-92 22,800 Minor warranty stuff $- Dec-92 24,717 Minor warranty stuff $- Nov-93 36,854 Inspection II $482.27 Nov-93 36,854 Fuel system recall $- Nov-93 36,854 Electrical/Ignition recall $- Apr-95 38,906 Engine miss/Check engine $134.71 Jul-95 42,112 DME Recall $- Jun-97 59,868 Inspection II $499.44 Jun-97 60,086 O2 Sensor, Coolant hoses $305.26 May-98 70,126 Cruise/throttle cable recall $- May-98 70,126 Oil change $62.93 May-98 70,666 Replace 2 coils $297.40 Jul-99 86,164 Replace 4 coils $489.94 Nov-99 91,032 Inspection II $631.90 Nov-99 91,032 Brake Flush, Belts, Muffler $895.78 Jun-00 96,452 CEL, O2 sensor $395.05 Aug-01 110,016 Inspection I, fuse, Fan clutch, Brake Flush $804.87 Sep-01 111,320 Thermostat $53.88 Dec-01 113,190 Heater core, center muffler $1,553.48 Feb-99 75,000 Coolant Level Sensor $37.03 Yes Jun-02 119,638 Inspection II, brake flush, valve cover gasket $1,354.30 Mar-03 127,408 Water pump, thermostat, belts $765.22 Oct-03 134,497 Front shocks, ball joints (labor) $443.91 Oct-03 134,497 Front shocks, ball joints (parts) $500.00 Oct-03 134,497 Rear shocks, ball joints (parts) $250.00 Yes Aug-04 140,904 Inspection I, Tests, speedo sensor, Fuel Sending Unit $598.29 Jun-05 147,693 CEL, O2 sensor $248.86 Dec-05 150,882 Radiator replacement $656.19 Apr-06 160,830 Inspection II $657.49 Aug-07 186,161 Inspection II $762.75 $13,329.79 > (This doesn't include oil changes every 3-5K miles that I did myself.) > As you can see, your conjecture based upon your "facts", that you will > have to spend $5,000-$6,000 per year has no basis in real facts. > > FloydR Hi Floyd, I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only parts costs and no labor costs. However your parts costs come to about the same cost per mile as my total cost. I see a patttern of about $1k per 10k miles. This cost is rather high. If you add your labor costs this makes your cost per mile even higher which only proves my point! I posted an E39 2002 525i sport with about 65k miles. So far a bit less than $6k in parts AND labor. This happened in a time between 45k and 65k ($6k of repairs). I've owned 2 hondas (accord and crv), a mazda rx7 and ford mustang. All of these had MUCH less repair/labor costs at 65k than the bmw. This is what is upsetting me!! I feel like I've been exposed to fraud. BMW, german engineering, etc, etc - the best in the world. Oh great ! Then you see the repair bills by 65k miles (which isn't that much) and the picture starts to come into focus. It's not a pretty site!! I have friends who are professionals (lawyers, doctors, small business owners) who also had bmw and mercedes autos and their experience was similar to mine - unexpectly high repair bills due to parts wearing out very soon - compared to other cars. Most will never buy a bmw or mercedes again. Some are die-hard fans and even though they realize the very high repair bills they stick with it. After a while it seems like it's more of a head trip (I drive a Mercedes!! or that's MY BMW!) JD Powers and Consumer reports only give support to our experiences. http://nhtsa.gov/ You can also look here for more unbiased information/statistics. This place collects data from all autos sold in the USA. When the problems get bad enough, they are the ones who prompt the auto makers for recalls. A technical publication is one step before a recall. An auto with lots of technical pubs is usually a bad sign. This information is collected from dealers across the USA and from independant auto shops. Please verify what I'm saying by reading their website. Oskar > Let's try that paste again > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > > FloydR >Hi Floyd, >I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only >parts costs and no labor costs. Try reading again while brain is engaged. > pheoni...@gmail.com wrote: > >Hi Floyd, > >I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only > >parts costs and no labor costs. > > Try reading again while brain is engaged. Nice try, but most people don't fix their own cars! For proper cost analysis parts AND labor should be included, not just parts. So the 'I do my own labor' story is fine but the final cost is misleading - it includes no labor. Oskar <pheonix1t@gmail.com> wrote On Jul 3, 8:09 pm, dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote: > pheoni...@gmail.com wrote: > >Hi Floyd, > >I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only > >parts costs and no labor costs. > > Try reading again while brain is engaged. Nice try, but most people don't fix their own cars! For proper cost analysis parts AND labor should be included, not just parts. So the 'I do my own labor' story is fine but the final cost is misleading - it includes no labor. ---------------------- He was attempting to point out to you that, except for a few cases where *my* labor was *specifically* called out (notice the "Yes" in the last column), the costs listed are for parts *and* labor. FloydR On Jul 3, 8:09 pm, dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote: > pheoni...@gmail.com wrote: > >Hi Floyd, > >I appreciate you posting this info. However it seems to show only > >parts costs and no labor costs. > > Try reading again while brain is engaged. Nice try, but most people don't fix their own cars! For proper cost analysis parts AND labor should be included, not just parts. So the 'I do my own labor' story is fine but the final cost is misleading - it includes no labor. Actually, a fair number of BMW owners do fix their own cars. I suspect several times more so than, say, Cadillac owners. R / John Thanks Floyd for a great post, I'm just about to buy a 2001 540 and was curious about some of the costs that d come up. I might keep records of work done rather than fuel used! Colin soon to loose my BMW cherry to e39 540 :-) Melbourne Aus. > Let's try that paste again <big snip> > > (This doesn't include oil changes every 3-5K miles that I did myself.) > > As you can see, your conjecture based upon your "facts", that you will > > have to spend $5,000-$6,000 per year has no basis in real facts. > > > FloydR > Thanks Floyd for a great post, >> Let's try that paste again >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > As you can see, your conjecture based upon your "facts", that you will >> > have to spend $5,000-$6,000 per year has no basis in real facts. No problem! I would like to point out that, because the OP believed that brakes and tires are similar (to other cars), that I didn't include those costs. Tires generally lasted me 35-45K miles. I always did my own brake replacements; pads and rotors at around $100-$10 per corner plus around 1/2 hour of my labor per corner. I could post my figures for my '01, they show similar numbers. FloydR >Thanks Floyd for a great post, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Colin >soon to loose my BMW cherry to e39 540 :-) ahahahahahahaha! Great imagery, that - and probably true ;-) Thanks Floyd for a great post, I'm just about to buy a 2001 540 and was curious about some of the costs that d come up. I might keep records of work done rather than fuel used! Colin soon to loose my BMW cherry to e39 540 :-) Melbourne Aus. Before you pop it, you might consider the 530i. Granted, it lacks the grunt of the V-8 (about 1 second slower to 60 and similarly 1 second slower through a quarter mile), but it's less expensive to maintain and feed. So, do you need the extra performance? While I looked long and hard at a 2003 540i Sport Pckg, I weighed the (only occasional) gain versus the (continuing) expense and came out on the side of the smaller engine. The bonus is the lighter 530i has slightly better balance, crisper steering (rack versus recirc ball) and is as much fun (or more so) to drive than the 540i except when you have the opportunity to put the hammer down. R / John <pheonix1t@gmail.com> wrote On Jul 2, 1:43 am, "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote: > <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > FloydR Hi Floyd, Please correct me if I'm wrong but your logic is as follows: car has poor reliability for 1st 3 years of ownership, this DOESN'T mean that car will continue to be unreliable. Is this correct? That makes absolutely no sense!! --------------- Actually, if you understood statistics, particularly the terms causality and correlation, you would see that it makes sense. Now, I'm not saying there is *no* correlation, but that jdpower study is of little or no value for long-term reliability. ---------------- Who in their right mind buys anything that gets all sorts of problems in the 1st 3 years of ownership and then tells themself, it's only the 1st 3 years of ownership - the future will be better! Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. ---------------- I've owned BMWs for 30 years. The old ones had many more engine problems than current ones. All current cars have more electrical problems than older cars, because there are more electronics. ---------------- Also, FYI the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10 years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model car you're looking at is reliable? ------------------ No, because BMW changes cars every 7 years, and engines typically every 3-4 years, which totally blows any long term trend. ------------------ This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots of problems. Also, JD Powers reports go back about 12 years. Lexus is #1 for 12 years in a row if I recall correctly. Oskar In article <281fffb8-4731-4b35-aa5a-4efd39d36268@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>, > Since you seem to be the only one who didn't get all emotional with a > knee-jerk response saying bmw is the best I think you're the most > reasonable person here! Err, when you post a one sided view expect to get replied to like for like. If you'd done the most basic research before buying you'd have found BMW in general aren't the most reliable brand. They are bought by those who have different priorities. So your post gives the impression of being somewhat of a troll. Signature*If you think this van is dirty, you should try having sex with the driver* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Radiator failure in the 60-90K range is not uncommon on the V-8's. > Much less so on the I-6's. The water pump is a weakness and probably > should be replaced as a preventive measure prior to 90K (Mike Miller > would say 60). The radiator is also a weakness as it is plastic. You can buy an aftermarket radiator that is not plastic though that should last you a bit longer. Pete >> Radiator failure in the 60-90K range is not uncommon on the V-8's. Much >> less so on the I-6's. The water pump is a weakness and probably should [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > aftermarket radiator that is not plastic though that should last you a bit > longer. I thought I made that clear in my post. Much of the cooling system is plastic: Radiator upper and lower sections, some water pump impellers (now fixed IIRC), thermostat housing, etc. Zionsville makes a slick all-aluminum radiator and overflow tank ... it ain't cheap ... and you can also get it with an electric fan and shroud to replace the OEM ... quite expensive. There are some reports of the fan disintergrating as well. The plastic parts tend to get brittle over time and heat cycles and then cracks. That said, the E39 is a very satisfying car on the road. But I do wish the folks in Munich would learn from the folks in Japan about designing longevity into the secondary systems in their vehicles. R / John >>> Radiator failure in the 60-90K range is not uncommon on the V-8's. >>> Much less so on the I-6's. The water pump is a weakness and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > plastic: Radiator upper and lower sections, some water pump impellers > (now fixed IIRC), thermostat housing, etc. You just wrote that radiator failure in 60-90k range is not uncommon on the V8. What I was trying to get across is that it is also not uncommon on the I6 as that radiator is plastic. Cheers, Pete >>>> Radiator failure in the 60-90K range is not uncommon on the V-8's. Much >>>> less so on the I-6's. The water pump is a weakness and probably should [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the V8. What I was trying to get across is that it is also not uncommon > on the I6 as that radiator is plastic. Fair enough, but the I-6 evidently doesn't put as much stress on the cooling system. Failures (cracks in the upper neck on the drivers side typically) are much more common on the V-8's. R / John > You just wrote that radiator failure in 60-90k range is not uncommon on > the V8. What I was trying to get across is that it is also not uncommon > on the I6 as that radiator is plastic. The rad isn't plastic - just some parts of it, like the header tank. And for some reason the ones on the six cylinder cars don't fail anything like as often. I'd guess the under bonnet heat is lower on average. Or perhaps the vibration where the hoses meet the rad is lower. Who knows. Signature*You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.