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Car Forum / BMW Cars / December 2008German rebirth
From: "VernMan@my.home" <wernergr@comcast.net> Subject: Re: SUNDAY TIMES REVIEW: BMW 330d M SPORT Date: 25 December 2008 17:08 On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 03:51:18 GMT, dizzy <dizzy@nospam.invalid> wrote: >BBO wrote: > >>dizzy wrote: >>> Dave Plowman (News) wrote: >>> >>>> The headline gives no real idea of the article - you need to read it >>>> all. >>>> And remember Clarkson's style - tongue in cheek. He loved the car. >>> >>> How could anyone tell? 2 stars? >> >>He does that to rile up people that doesn't understand the british >>humour where sarcasm and irony plays a big part. ;-) Also, you got to >>remember, the brits won the war. > >I get it! It's a German car! 8) > If you really think about it, and mind you I am an American, and you compare the British economy to the German economy, you wonder who really won the war. With Germany being almost totally flattened as compared to the UK, they had to completely rebuild. Not all German output was destroyed. Germany remained capable of feeding itself for instance, something the UK would not manage until decades after the war. Even during the war BMW were producing jet engines for their war effort, whilst the Brits (who invented them) managed a few experimental planes that never saw combat. > And I remember visiting customers in the UK in their factories which were all pre-war, and then visiting my German customers, there was a huge difference. In the field of quality and technology, there is nothing better then German engineering, IMHO. Well probably, unfortunately (like say hermetically sealed doors) often misapplied to their social policy, which was the worst ever. > OK, I better put on the asbestos underwear now :-) Nazism's defeat wasn't just military, but also of course psychological. The Germans didn't just have to literally rebuild their financially bankrupt country, they also had to rebuild their morally bankrupt society more or less from scratch. The silver lining was that the abyss that they stepped back from was so deep that only a handful of nutters ever wanted to go anywhere near it again - at least in Germany. So fortunately we haven't had a third European civil war... > And I remember > visiting customers in the UK in their factories which were all > pre-war, and then visiting my German customers, there was a huge > difference. > In the field of quality and technology, there is nothing better then > German engineering, IMHO. I wouldn't be so sure. In a genera sense that could be true, but I still think that at the leading edge, we brits can compete with anyone. A business aquantance of mine who owns and runs a small UK toolmaking Co, has a several German customers. He gets the business because according to them, they have difficulty finding German Co's capable of designing and supplying machine tools that do the job as well or last as long as those manufactured by his Co. Mike. >> And I remember >> visiting customers in the UK in their factories which were all [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >as well or last as long as those manufactured by his Co. >Mike. I (the OP that Mark was quoting) was generalizing, and that of course is never a good thing. I was also talking from 15 plus years back, when I visited Angus in the UK, which was a big rubber molding company (shaft seals, valve stem seals and the like). It's kind of ironic that years ago they got bought up by the Freudenberg group, which is located in Weinheim, Germany. When I visited the Angus factory, back in the early 90's it felt like I was in 1950 era. I later visited Freudenberg many times and they were much more modern as far as their equipment and set-up (automated injection molding machines for example while Angus was still using compression molding techniques). The factory building was pre-war construction at Angus, while the Freudenberg facility was from the 70's. I'm sure today the UK is competitive with Germany, but I remember thinking at that time who really won the war. I later visited many other UK and German customers and generally observed similar things (old-new), but I haven't been in the UK in about 5 years. Mike G's example is not statistically valid; I am sure there are more examples of British companies doing well, but the fact is that German industry was a lot more competitive for many years after WW2. There are plenty of examples of the opposite, Janguar being one notable example. The story goes that when Ford executives came into the Jag plant they had just bought and did a detailed investigation they were shocked at how dated it was. I would suggest that there are other factors at work as well. The DM exchange rate started out as being very favourable to Germany (not unlike Japan). As German industry was rebuilt the currency rose, making it harder for it, but it kept innovating and staying ahead of the game until recently. Now Germany suffers more or less the same as all the western European countries, but its social support structure (health, unemployment pay etc) is still pretty good. The question of who 'won' the war economically is an old one. (West) Germany has done very well, but it also got massive injections of Marshall Plan aid and a non-interventionist government after about three years. This, together with a new currency (the Deutsche Mark) in which everyone had confidence, coupled with a sensible exchange rate policy (old Reichsmarks for new Deutschmarks) (as opposed to a daft policy exchanging East German marks for Deutschmarks in 1990 at too high a rate), led to or at least suported a long upswing. Britain famously elected a Labour government whose policies were to nationalise the 'commanding heights of the economy' etc etc. Oh, the German government or other state authorities also owned assets it need not have owned (Lufthansa, vineyards, and even now a share of VW...) but it was never the same as in the UK, and in the meantime teh country built a health system superior to the British one, despite what so many Brits love to believe. Season's Greetings! :-) DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- [...] > When I visited the Angus factory, back in the early 90's it felt like > I was in 1950 era. I later visited Freudenberg many times and they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other UK and German customers and generally observed similar things > (old-new), but I haven't been in the UK in about 5 years. Another not entirely unrelated factor was that neither Germany nor Japan were allowed much in the way of armed services from 1945 till well about now really. Total military expenditure for ~60 years of typically < 1%pa. The US, UK and even France on the other hand invested about 5% of GPD on defence and the former USSR about 14%. This resulted in less capital available for reinvestment, and in the case of the USSR effectively financial failure, despite the fact that Marxist economists (like Marcuse) had predicted that lower output of producer goods* would result in lower economic growth. Not difficult to use a calculator to work out the long term effects of supporting a large military on the back of major economy... * Marxist speak for lower capital formation and reinvestment. > Mike G's example is not statistically valid; I am sure there are more > examples of British companies doing well, but the fact is that German [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >> other UK and German customers and generally observed similar things >> (old-new), but I haven't been in the UK in about 5 years. >Another not entirely unrelated factor was that neither Germany nor Japan >were allowed much in the way of armed services from 1945 till well about now [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >* Marxist speak for lower capital formation and reinvestment. Tell me about it ;-) As a US citizen, I don't think I need to explain to my European friends what devastating economic effects having a military involved in 2 wars at the same time can have. That on top of the deregulated sub-prime mortgage speculation game...<ouch> > Mike G's example is not statistically valid; Of course it isn't. I merely gave one example of a british Co that is apparently competing very sucessfully against german competition. I am sure there are more > examples of British companies doing well, I'm sure there are, but in the OP's opinion, there is nothing better than german quality and technology. I disagreed. As I said.. At the leading edge, I think we can compete with anyone. but the fact is that German > industry was a lot more competitive for many years after WW2. There are > plenty of examples of the opposite, Janguar being one notable example. > The story goes that when Ford executives came into the Jag plant they had > just bought and did a detailed investigation they were shocked at how > dated it was. Maybe so, but I thought the discussion was about how things are at present. In general engineering we have the skills and the technical ability to do much better in the world markets than we are at present. The fact that we are not doing as well as we could, is down to poor management IMO. Mike. > In general engineering we have the skills and the technical ability to > do much better in the world markets than we are at present. The fact > that we are not doing as well as we could, is down to poor management > IMO. The history of the UK car manufacturing business is peppered with poor management. Mainly the need to satisfy shareholders before investment. Hence the out dated models premises and equipment. But always blamed on the unions. By that management. That's not to say the unions were entirely blameless, but those same workers have been praised working for non UK car makers in the same areas. Basically it takes two to tango...  Signature*If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Mike G's example is not statistically valid; > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >are not doing as well as we could, is down to poor management IMO. >Mike. I agree I over generalized, for that I do put on the asbestos underwear. But I also still believe German engineering and quality is the best there is. I work with German engineers on a daily basis. I work in a technical field for a fortune 500 global company (they make post-it notes amongst other things, in case you might be wondering who my employer might be), designing specialty polymers for chemical resistance at high temperatures (e.g. under the hood of a car). My German colleagues continuously amaze me in their quest for absolute perfection and how they almost always seem to achieve it. I admit some of their approaches seem anal sometimes, but their ultimate goal is the achievement of a perfect quality product manufactured in a cost-effective way. Most of the times they do not achieve the cost-effectiveness goals, admittedly, but they absolutely refuse to cut corners and sacrifice product quality/reliability. I have a cousin who works at the 4-cylinders in Munich. He's the same way, although like me he is Belgian born (I am a US citizen now). It seems to be in the German genes. One of the many reasons all my cars are BMW's And look at what BMW did with the mini. It's quite amazing, actually. Now I slowly, and carefully descend from my soap-box... > I work with German engineers on a daily basis. I > work in a technical field for a fortune 500 global company (they make [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My German colleagues continuously amaze me in their quest for absolute > perfection and how they almost always seem to achieve it. Crikey. Not much excuse for the door vapour barrier adhesive failing, then, like it does on E39s? Or the paint having as much orange peel as an '80s Rover? Signature*Acupuncture is a jab well done* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> I work with German engineers on a daily basis. I >> work in a technical field for a fortune 500 global company (they make [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >then, like it does on E39s? > Or the paint having as much orange peel as an '80s Rover? I guess. Like I said, 'almost'. Absolute perfection is a fantasy. The vapor barrier on the old E39 was made from butyl rubber. It may still be, and I don't know what adhesive they use. The 3M stuff is pretty good quality AFAIK. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1089505 This guy here wrote up a fix for it http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/128313-door-seal-gaske t-insulation-diy-prevent-water-leaks.html I don't know anything about the '80s Rover and its paint problems. I design polymers for radial shaft seals, valve stem seals and oxygen sensors. Paint is a bit out of my league ;-) In response to the various comments, incl those responding to my posts I think all of us in this discussion appreciate that it is not a simple issue and that various factors are involved, and I certainly don't know all of them. DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- >>> I work with German engineers on a daily basis. I >>> work in a technical field for a fortune 500 global company (they make [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I design polymers for radial shaft seals, valve stem seals and oxygen > sensors. Paint is a bit out of my league ;-) >> I work with German engineers on a daily basis. I >> work in a technical field for a fortune 500 global company (they make [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Crikey. Not much excuse for the door vapour barrier adhesive failing, > then, like it does on E39s? The vapour barriers haven't apparently failed on my E39. Yet. > Or the paint having as much orange peel as an '80s Rover? Does that only apply to solid unlaquered colours, because my metallic silver E39 and E34, or silver SD1 Vitesse have any orange peel. Mike. > > Crikey. Not much excuse for the door vapour barrier adhesive failing, > > then, like it does on E39s? > The vapour barriers haven't apparently failed on my E39. Yet. They don't all do it - which somehow makes it worse. Glueing non stressed plastic to painted steel isn't exactly rocket science. > > Or the paint having as much orange peel as an '80s Rover? > Does that only apply to solid unlaquered colours, because my metallic > silver E39 and E34, or silver SD1 Vitesse have any orange peel. My Montreal green E39 hasn't a good finish to the lacquer. Not perhaps orange peal but sort of rough. On a par with most others I've looked at. Although to be fair few water based paints seem to be the equal of two pack. Rovers of the time tended to vary from car to car. Mine was originally finished in cellulose - despite earlier ones using more modern stuff. It was rather orange peel when I got it - but I polished it out. Had it re-sprayed a couple of years ago after the original got dull. Signature*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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